If PSM were to expand, this is probably more realistic:

655

That would be a good area for Dicks as I said on another thread the closest sporting goods store in that area is in Edmond. As for PSM I agree with Patrick on PSM expansion.

They're looking at the old Sportsman's warehouse space on Memorial by Quail Springs Mall.

The lifestyle center that was going to be south of Memorial had already signed Dick's and announced it when they announced the development. So, it's obvious they've been wanting in this market for a while.

Somebody will grab the Ballenger's location at the old CompUSA location. That whole area has really been a hot spot for national retailers/franchisees. Speaking of, the new Chick-fil-A has been a blockbuster. They told me they were informed it's been one of the most successful openings in their history. I hope Dave & Busters has a similar success down the road when they open.

I love Penn Square but have just about quit shopping there due to the traffic. That parking lot is a nightmare. And this coming from someone who has shopped there since 1969.

I love Penn Square but have just about quit shopping there due to the traffic. That parking lot is a nightmare. And this coming from someone who has shopped there since 1969.

I agree that the design and traffic flow leave a lot to be desired but I've been there a couple of times in the last week which is the busiest time of the year and had no major issues with parking or driving. I usually enter the area going south on Penn from 63rd and that always seems to be the easiest.

Not sure what's so confusing about the way Dillards at Penn Square is split up. Dillards west is an all women's store. Dillards east is mens, children's, and home.

Didn't say the Dillards split was confusing, just too much of a hassle if you need to go to departments that are in different stores.

The confusing part was with the Hobby Lobby example because you never knew which store an item might be in.

The same people that complain about parking at Penn Square are probably the same people that complain about parking in Bricktown. There's always parking in the parking garage in the back. The people that have problems with parking at PSM are those that want to park out front or on some fo the surface parking closer to the building, i.e., the west side of the building.

The same people that complain about parking at Penn Square are probably the same people that complain about parking in Bricktown. There's always parking in the parking garage in the back. The people that have problems with parking at PSM are those that want to park out front or on some fo the surface parking closer to the building, i.e., the west side of the building.

Just to clarify - I said I hated the TRAFFIC in the parking lot. I don't have any trouble with the parking, itself. And just so you know, I always park either on the north or in the parking garage.

Dicks sportings goods blows.. Bring in an REI or Fry's Electronics... I've seen a REI in several malls they go over VERY WELL.

I hope Dicks does come to OKC. Somebody needs to give Academy some competition. They are really the only game in town.

From Newsok.com:

Penn Square bookstore to close
Published: December 30, 2010

WINDOW SHOPPING

Penn Square bookstore to close

Waldenbooks inside Penn Square Mall is closing. It is the last remaining Waldenbooks store in the metro area. Waldenbooks, owned by Borders, is closing stores nationwide, according to a mall spokeswoman. A call to Borders Group on Wednesday wasn't immediately returned. A national retailer exclusive to the mall will replace the bookstore, the mall spokeswoman said. Because negotiations are ongoing, she wasn't able to release the retailer's name.

http://newsok.com/penn-square-bookstore-to-close/article/3527769#ixzz19cvNYbyb

This comment is interesting: "national retailer exclusive to the mall". So it's not going to be a Forever 21, as there are already locations at Quail Springs and Sooner. Wonder if Anthropologie is going to move in. With the location, I wouldn't be surprised if American Eagle opens one of their Aerie stores, as that wing has become pretty teen-young adult oriented with stores like Justice, Hot Topic, and Wet Seal all right there in the same area. Still holding out for an Anthropologie.

That space is too small for Anthropologie....I hope. Unless they're going to open a small store and wait for something bigger to open up. I would think they would want more exposure as well. That's one of the lesser traveled parts of the mall. And I am still hearing they're going in somewhere on the Curve.

I have to admit, it would be nice to see them put both an Urban Outfitters and Anthropologie in Classen Curve. Seems like most of Anthropologie's stores are in lifestyle centers anyways.

I altered the drawing by St. Dennis somewhat. See what you guys think of this.

659

Better yet, ditch the Dickinson movie theatre and replace it with a 15-20 story hotel.

660

Better yet, ditch the Dickinson movie theatre and replace it with a 15-20 story hotel.

660

Patrick, why doesn't mall management try to accomplish what you have illustrated? Seems to me it would make financial sense, given the ever-lasting waiting list.

Patrick, why doesn't mall management try to accomplish what you have illustrated? Seems to me it would make financial sense, given the ever-lasting waiting list.

Because Saks, Nordstrom and Nieman arent coming to OKC.

I think it would be more realistic if they added a small plaza of outside shops on the NW corner of the property, just north of the bank. Add a parking gargage if necessary

Yeah, onthestrip is right. Simon can build all they want to, but Nordstrom, Nieman, and Saks just don't see any value in this market. And there's really not any point of enlarging the mall if you don't have a few extra anchor tenants to add. The cost is prohibitive, especially when you're talking about building expensive structured parking, if you can't sign on a large upscale anchor. It would take signing on at least one of those department stores on a long term lease to make it worthwhile. And they don't want to commit for that long when they're uncertain they will do well in this market.

Certainly Nordstrom, at the very least, is underestimating the market, just like Anthropologie did. They make the mistake of looking only at average income, rather than disposable income. That's why Anthro was shocked at how well the Tulsa store has done and why they're now willing to put a store in OKC. It shouldn't be happening, based on average income, but that's not the key piece of data. Nordstrom is a small cut above Dillards and it's ridiculous to think they wouldn't be supported here.

Crate and Barrel would make a nice, smaller anchor.

Maybe they could et rid of the 10 screen movie theater and put a Crate and Barrel in that smaller anchor space.

I think Nordstrom would do fairly well in Penn Square. The market income in OKC may not be high, but in that general area demoraphics are pretty good because of nearby Nichols Hills.

FWIW, I've heard that The Container Store is looking at one of 2 possible locations: 1. The Salvation Army building on the NW corner of NW Expressway and Penn - across from Talbots, and 2. Memorial Road.

Doesn't Chesapeake own the former Salvation Army building?

I believe it was recently sold, maybe even a few weeks ago.

Penn Square got another dose of bad news on the KFOR news tonight. They had an interview with a woman was attacked while getting in her car in the parking lot in December late at night. She had tried to find someone from security to go to her car with her but couldn't. She was able to fight off the attacker but had a cast on her arm.

Doesn't Chesapeake own the former Salvation Army building?

I believe it was recently sold, maybe even a few weeks ago. Yes, you are correct. CHK Energy owns the building. Great location for something new, exciting and modern. The current building on site is pretty "dated".

Actually, I wouldn't have a problem with them keeping JC Penney. I'd rather they keep JC Penney and just add a 5th anchor space on the property by Pepperoni Grill. Ideally, it would be nice to see them both replace JC Penney and add a 5th anchor, but again I think they're limited by space. But, adding a 5th anchor to the west side of the mall, and just building another parking garage on the north side of the property would be do-able. I'd love to see them add two high end department stores like Nordstrom and either Nieman Marcus or Saks.


I think the point many people are making is that there is no reason why Penn Square cannot have some really good stores that similar malls in similar cities have. Some of these stores are: Armani Exchange, Benetton, Espirit, H&M, Guess, Calvin Klein, Club Monaco, Lucky Jeans, Kenneth Cole, etc.

Long term, I really wish Penn Square would look to bring in Nordstrom to replace the JcPenney. I'm just not sure if they are looking to make their mall "great", rather than just good.


JcPenney built that store from the ground up... So I cannot see them leaving the mall unless the mall went the route of Crossroads. That would be like you building your own condo that you custom built/designed and the neighbors telling you that you have to move becuase they want your condo so a friend or family member can live on your property in your place.

I checked the property records and Simon is listed as the owner with the mall anchors listed on the deed. I am willing to bet like most malls Simon owns the land and the anchors own their buildings. The anchors pay a lease fee for the land each year which frees the anchors from paying for groundskeeping, parking repairs and security services.

Re Oneforone's reminder that JC Penney built their store, the mismatched brick on the south facade really, really bothers me. Each time we go there my wife has to hear me complain about how bad it looks. Does it bother anyone else?

Actually Simon owns all of the anchors. Obviously, JC Penney signed a long term lease, so, since it was their building, they got to have a say in the design process. This is one problem Crossroads had that Penn Square didn't have when Wards went broke. Simon owned the Wards space at Penn so it was easy to lease back out to Dillards. Crossroads spent months and months trying to purchase the anchor space from the creditors of Wards.

That is exactly what I posted. Many retailers own their building but not the land underneath it. Which makes the tenant and the land owner co-owners. It is like if I own land and I let you build a house on it with money you borrowed from the bank and later on you default on the loan. The bank cannot do anything if I am willing to payoff the loan or have the ablity to refinance the debt.

If Simon owned the whole package, that would mean Simon would also have to pay for the maintenance costs just like a landlord does for a tenant at a rent house. Wal-Mart is the only major retail company that owns the whole package these days. That is why so many Wal-Marts relocated over the last few years. It was not because the store was outdated or crumbling (240 store was barely 10 years old when they moved it). It was because they wanted to get out paying lease fees and the Supercenter concept was making them a killing. Had a real grocery and retail competitors been in Oklahoma City at the time most of the Supecenters were built, I don't think the OKC Metro would have half the amount it does now. At the time the Supecenters exploded most of OKC was ruled by local grocery stores. Most of them cut and run when Wal-Mart came to town. The rest with the exeception of Crest and Buy For Less sank when Fleming went under. That is another story for another time.

Jc Penny's doesn't really own their building if it's on a ground lease. Once their ground lease is up or if they default on lease then Simon would own the building. This is how most ground leases work so I am assuming this is the case on this one.

That is exactly what I posted. Many retailers own their building but not the land underneath it. Which makes the tenant and the land owner co-owners. It is like if I own land and I let you build a house on it with money you borrowed from the bank and later on you default on the loan. The bank cannot do anything if I am willing to payoff the loan or have the ablity to refinance the debt.
That is how many downtown buildings are done as well, I know that is a fact in Downtown Dallas. The One Dallas Center building is sitting on land owned by the Sanger Sisters Trust (Sanger-Harris Department store family) with a 100 year ground lease, I found that out while reading through legal documents regarding creditor claims we had against the building for unpaid work. When I worked in Dallas the First Baptist Church of Dallas/Criswell Property Trust was the largest single property owner in the CBD. The only buildings they owned were their own church buildings, everything else was built on their ground leases. The used much of the smaller buildings in the area they owned around their church for the new church projects buying the leases out of buildings on the land they owned.


Jc Penny's doesn't really own their building if it's on a ground lease. Once their ground lease is up or if they default on lease then Simon would own the building. This is how most ground leases work so I am assuming this is the case on this one.
Kind of one of those they do and don't own it things, it all depends on how the lease is structured. Some leases have very distinct parameters for renewal which gives much more power to the building "owner" than some leases do. The anchor stores at Highland Mall here in Austin have been sold to Austin Community College, both building and ground as they were platted as one with with ownership by the anchors with access easements from the mall property.

Jc Penny's doesn't really own their building if it's on a ground lease. Once their ground lease is up or if they default on lease then Simon would own the building. This is how most ground leases work so I am assuming this is the case on this one.

Exactly. Problem at Crossroads was Wards owned the whole package, so when they went under, Wards' creditors took control of the building, and it became a major problem for the owners of the mall.

Exactly. Problem at Crossroads was Wards owned the whole package, so when they went under, Wards' creditors took control of the building, and it became a major problem for the owners of the mall.

Wasn't Sears going to move in the old Montgomery Ward building at Crossroads?

Wasn't Sears going to move in the old Montgomery Ward building at Crossroads?

Yeah, but they opted to remodel their store on SW 44th instead.

So the store moving in where Waldenbooks was located is a dress store called Windsor.

Here's their website for more details:
http://www.windsorstore.com/

They also have one at Woodland Hills Mall in Tulsa.

I also heard today that within the next 5-10 years, there may be plans to expand Penn Square and possibly add a Nordstrom, Saks, or other similar high end anchor, and replace lost surface parking with one new parking garage and and expansion of the existing parking garage by adding 2-3 levels of parking. They'd love to expand the mall to 2 million square feet of shopping space.

I presented some of the illustrations presented on this thread, and they really like the concept of expanding making the large square as illustrated in pics above. It's very similar to the expansion that was made at Northpark Center in Dallas. I'll keep you updated.

While I am a bit nostalgic about it going, I have to admit the last time I was in one it seemed odd it was still open. With all the selection in larger stores, online and digital distribution it is impressive they have remained competitive and would be going out due to loosing a lease to a higher bidder.

The only plausible spot I could see them getting any more room for building is if they made another parking garage and then build on the existing parking just west of macy's, but it would be hard to make it work well.

While I am a bit nostalgic about it going, I have to admit the last time I was in one it seemed odd it was still open. With all the selection in larger stores, online and digital distribution it is impressive they have remained competitive and would be going out due to loosing a lease to a higher bidder.

The only plausible spot I could see them getting any more room for building is if they made another parking garage and then build on the existing parking just west of macy's, but it would be hard to make it work well.

Yeah, I think they really like this plan, except with more retail space on the west side to make it a complete square like with Northpark Center in Dallas. And eliminate the hallway between V and C. Also, the square on the west labeled "C" would be a department store, just west of Pepperoni Grill in the west parking lot. A few extra decks would be added to the existing parking garage, and a new parking garage would be built on the north side of Macy's and the new addition.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5281848570_f4a0a8a805_b.jpg

I also think that taking the title "Mall" off of the name, and just calling it "Penn Square" would be better.

Great work Patrick!

Keep up up to date with the future plans (5 to 10, hopefully closer to 5).

Does anyone have pics of the mall when it was still open air? I never saw it in that state (or when it only had 1 floor) and it kind of blows my mind to think of it as such.

Does anyone have pics of the mall when it was still open air? I never saw it in that state (or when it only had 1 floor) and it kind of blows my mind to think of it as such.

Doug's blog has a couple of pictures here:

http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2008/10/john-browns.html

There is a picture of the main entry here:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/main-entrance-mall-penn-square-oklahoma-city

Does anyone have pics of the mall when it was still open air? I never saw it in that state (or when it only had 1 floor) and it kind of blows my mind to think of it as such.

It was somewhat ahead of its time. If it was developed today (on albeit a larger scale) we would think it was very cool. It was a great place.

Thanks for the pics, have heard it was that way but hard to imagine it (even with seeing the pics) as the enclosed, 2 story is all I have known.

I remember when it was open air and I remember doing car shows in the previous, enclosed configuration. I did find copies of the enclosure project CD's when I was cleaning out one of the vaults at Benham in the late 80's.

Any more pics?

I've got several pictures of good resolution that show Penn Square in the old days I'll post next week on OKC History.

Yeah, I think they really like this plan, except with more retail space on the west side to make it a complete square like with Northpark Center in Dallas. And eliminate the hallway between V and C. Also, the square on the west labeled "C" would be a department store, just west of Pepperoni Grill in the west parking lot. A few extra decks would be added to the existing parking garage, and a new parking garage would be built on the north side of Macy's and the new addition.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5162/5281848570_f4a0a8a805_b.jpg

This is exactly what I had in mind, Patrick! With a constant waiting list, it just makes economic sense.

This may sound like an odd question but where does the "Square" part of "Penn Square" come from?

This may sound like an odd question but where does the "Square" part of "Penn Square" come from?

A common use of the word "square" is as a public meeting area. You will also note that many shopping centers around the country have that word included in the name. It has nothing to do with the shape. Casady Square in OKC is another case in point.

gotchya...that makes sense...was thinking maybe it was square in orientation when it was named but got lost over the years with expansions etc...sort of like French Market Mall @ 63rd & May. The enclosed "French Market" mall space has been nearly completely obliterated w/Burlington Coat Factory taking over that entire space. The only remains are the escalators and the wrought iron railings (were black, but painted white now).

The "Square" title, actually comes from the original "square" that was in the center of the complex. It's still there, although not completely square like when it was built. It's now the center court where the glass elevator and central escalators are located.

The "Square" title, actually comes from the original "square" that was in the center of the complex. It's still there, although not completely square like when it was built. It's now the center court where the glass elevator and central escalators are located.

Patrick, it's not really worth arguing about but, unless you have specific information to back that up, I doubt that was really the reason. It's just a generic term for shopping center. I previously mentioned Casady Square in OKC and we also have the examples of Walnut Square, Holiday Square, Kickingbird Square, Smithcot Square, and Economy Square. The rectangular pedestrian area of Penn Square was more to the east side of the center just as it is today and not particulaly central. It was just a small portion of the overall area.

Just like with "The Square" in Santa Fe. The title pertains to the small square gathering/pedestrian area, with shops around it. Look back on the Oklahoman archives, in articles from the 1950's when Penn Square was developed, and you'll find the source. I can't post it here due to copyright issues.