According to the Census you are completely wrong here. Since 2010 the only regional metro OKC hasn't grown faster than is DFW:

DFW - 24.8%
OKC - 16.5%
Omaha - 12.9%
Tulsa - 10.3%
Kansas City - 10.0%
Louisville - 6.8%
Wichita - 4.3%
Albuquerque - 3.7%

FACTS, thanks Swake. and OKC's metro is already larger in pop than all of them (save KC and DFW), for it to also post the second highest growth during the period is amazing. Not necessarily a direct attrubute to the Thunder but I'm sure having an NBA team made the decision to move to OKC easier than it otherwise would have been.

The City recently redirected $80 million from MAPS 4 to do that. That fact alone should put to rest the idea that these facilities are paying for themselves through new spending, tax collections, and job gains. They aren't.

disingenuous much ??

The Thunder have elevated the national perception of OKC to a level that would have never happened otherwise (outside of an NFL team). OKC needs to do everything they can to ensure the team never leaves, and I’m sure the voters will vote to build a suitable arena.

The Thunder have elevated the national perception of OKC to a level that would have never happened otherwise (outside of an NFL team). OKC needs to do everything they can to ensure the team never leaves, and I’m sure the voters will vote to build a suitable arena.

Exactly, you can't buy the kind of pub OKC gets from the Thunder. The city has to keep them happy. Period.

Exactly, you can't buy the kind of pub OKC gets from the Thunder. The city has to keep them happy. Period.

You can buy the publicity the Thunder provides. It is $1 billion.

According to the Census you are completely wrong here. Since 2010 the only regional metro OKC hasn't grown faster than is DFW:

DFW - 24.8%
OKC - 16.5%
Omaha - 12.9%
Tulsa - 10.3%
Kansas City - 10.0%
Louisville - 6.8%
Wichita - 4.3%
Albuquerque - 3.7%

I calculated using 2008 to 2023. My numbers come from macrotrends.net which got their numbers from the UN, which in turn got them from the US census. No idea why the numbers would be different.

I calculated using 2008 to 2023. My numbers come from macrotrends.net which got their numbers from the UN, which in turn got them from the US census. No idea why the numbers would be different.

Because everyone gets to pick the particular set of data that proves their particular opinion.

You can buy the publicity the Thunder provides. It is $1 billion.

No it is not. Take a billion dollars and attempt to get a team to come to your city. You can't do it.

Because everyone gets to pick the particular set of data that proves their particular opinion.

I picked it because that is what Google recommend as a data source for those dates.

In other news, the Nevada legislature decided not to vote on public financing of the A's propsed stadium in Las Vegas.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/37805021/nevada-legislative-session-ends-vote-stadium-bill

In other news, the Arizona legislature decided not to vote on public financing of the A's propsed stadium in Las Vegas.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/37805021/nevada-legislative-session-ends-vote-stadium-bill

arizona??



the nevada legislature didn't because they ran out of time they also didn't get to one of their required budget bills ..

they will have a special session for both

In other news, the Arizona legislature decided not to vote on public financing of the A's propsed stadium in Las Vegas.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/37805021/nevada-legislative-session-ends-vote-stadium-bill

This might need to be fact checked, good sir.

Nevada governor apparently isn't going to put the A's stadium bill in the special session. Stadium will either be built with private funds or they crawl back to Oakland.

https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/reporters/as-move-to-las-vegas-takes-major-blow-as-nevada-lawmakers-dont-vote-on-tax-measure

In other news, the Nevada legislature decided not to vote on public financing of the A's propsed stadium in Las Vegas.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/37805021/nevada-legislative-session-ends-vote-stadium-bill
I hope to god that plan dies a nice slow death. Tearing out the Tropicana is ridiculous. There is so much vacant land south on the strip spur some development down there and build it there. They are screwing Vegas with this thing with or without public funding.

Information is starting to firm up regarding the new arena...


I still expect the mayor to outline the broad strokes at the State of the City address in July.

I'm hearing it will be a $1 billion project, but not sure how much of that will be public money, but almost certainly a big chunk of it will be.

Also believe the public vote will be in January as opposed to December.


It will definitely be on the Cox site. Prairie Surf has been looking around for a new facility.

Information is starting to firm up regarding the new arena...


I still expect the mayor to outline the broad strokes at the State of the City address in July.

I'm hearing it will be a $1 billion project, but not sure how much of that will be public money, but almost certainly a big chunk of it will be.

Also believe the public vote will January as opposed to December.


It will definitely be on the Cox site. Prairie Surf has been looking around for a new facility.

Nice! And I expect the city will support it via that vote. Not sure the %, but should pass easily.

The Prairie Surf lease runs through January 2026.

There are options to renew but the City has the right to get them out of there at the end of the original term; maybe earlier.

So, if this is announced in July and approved in January, all the design and planning could start and construction could be going full-tilt by 2026, and perhaps before.

Although this is not directly related to the Olympics, the project could be done by the summer of 2028.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/37812510/jaguars-unveil-renderings-proposed-stadium-renovation

Tehehehehe Happy to deliver this news here, although Kahn is a great owner I'm sure 50/50 isn't good enough for, some, people.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/37812510/jaguars-unveil-renderings-proposed-stadium-renovation

Tehehehehe Happy to deliver this news here, although Kahn is a great owner I'm sure 50/50 isn't good enough for, some, people.

Yep - it will sure be interesting here in Jax. The vast majority of Jax residents are opposed to giving the Jags another cent but after the residents successfully shot down the Jags Lot J proposal a few years ago the City Council decided to not include the public on anymore Jags spending. I expect we will get the Nashville treatment.

Pete, are you hearing the billion dollar cost would be just for the arena? I know there are some arenas being built that include condos and things like that. I am curious if something like that would be included.

I would love to see a mixture of 1/2 cent sales tax, bonds and owner equity. I am sure the owners won't put in more than 10% of the total project cost, but that would be something, at least.

Pete, are you hearing the billion dollar cost would be just for the arena? I know there are some arenas being built that include condos and things like that. I am curious if something like that would be included.

I would love to see a mixture of 1/2 cent sales tax, bonds and owner equity. I am sure the owners won't put in more than 10% of the total project cost, but that would be something, at least.

Seems like selling parcels for surrounding development would be a good way to pay down some of the arena debt.

Seems like selling parcels for surrounding development would be a good way to pay down some of the arena debt.

My thoughts exactly, with stipulations of what can be built since it is city land. i.e. height, capacity, design, etc. I am sure they will do that with the old Paycom arena when the time comes.

Because selling City land with stipulations and development deadlines have worked so well in the past?

I believe the $1 billion is just for the arena.

The commercial development would be done privately, although I haven't heard an amount or many details on that.

Would be room on all 4 sides if the arena was placed more or less in the middle of the existing Cox site.

There would also be potential offsetting revenue from whatever happens to the Paycom site because it sure sounds like it will be redeveloped as soon as the new arena is up and running.

Because selling City land with stipulations and development deadlines have worked so well in the past?

Depends on the developers. What are you referring to, exactly?

Depends on the developers. What are you referring to, exactly?

The Goodwill site, a stain on OCURA and the City Council.

The Goodwill site, a stain on OCURA and the City Council.

Right, the main person here is Fred Mazaheri who owns prime pieces of land around downtown and has shown he is not interested in following the guidelines set before him. If they were to sell to him with hopes of him doing something, they would be kidding themselves and we all would know it. If you brought in someone with the right plans, backing and history of doing things correctly, I think most people would be on board.

Right, the main person here is Fred Mazaheri who owns prime pieces of land around downtown and has shown he is not interested in following the guidelines set before him. If they were to sell to him with hopes of him doing something, they would be kidding themselves and we all would know it. If you brought in someone with the right plans, backing and history of doing things correctly, I think most people would be on board.

But, the City has made so many wrong decisions like that, and that scares me, with regards to stuff for the Olympics, development around the new Arena, etc. I want to be proven wrong. Fool me once, shame on you, there won't be a fool me twice.

But, the City has made so many wrong decisions like that, and that scares me, with regards to stuff for the Olympics, development around the new Arena, etc. I want to be proven wrong. Fool me once, shame on you, there won't be a fool me twice.

Fool me twice, can't put the blame on you.

Will the LA 2028 Olympic representatives have some input, this will be apart of their Olympics since funds are involved.

But, the City has made so many wrong decisions like that, and that scares me, with regards to stuff for the Olympics, development around the new Arena, etc. I want to be proven wrong. Fool me once, shame on you, there won't be a fool me twice.

The Goodwill property is far more complex and I've explained it in great detail and have even written articles about it.

Abridged version: Mazaheri sued the City over property they took from him via eminent domain that was in the middle of what is now Scissortail Park. For damages, he asked to gain control of the Goodwill property at an agreed-upon price and the City made him sign a contract that included fines for not hitting certain milestones. He's already missed a couple and is certain to miss more and the City Council will soon decide how to proceed including whether the fines will be enforced. The City was more or less forced into this situation and now is dealing with a very litigious lawyer and his entire law firm and of course Mazaheri is going to make the case that the pandemic is the primary reason for the delays. If they tried to levy fines, you can bet it would cost them a lot of money in legal fees because Mazaheri would likely fight them in court.

Even though the City Council may need to vote, they rely almost exclusively on the City Attorney office, and they handled the eminent domain, negotiated the settlement with Mazaheri, wrote the contracts regarding Goodwill, and then pretty much tell the Council what should be done. If there are issues, the focus should be on Kenny Jordan and his staff.

I will also say I completely reject this broad characterization that local developers don't deliver (either by changed scope or delays) and the City is somehow inept on this front. This is in no way unique to OKC and I've made this point over and over again.


I understand the frustration, but before people vent they need to educate themselves via the ample information that has been provided.

The Goodwill property is far more complex and I've explained it in great detail and have even written articles about it.

Abridged version: Mazaheri sued the City over property they took from him via eminent domain that was in the middle of what is now Scissortail Park. For damages, he asked to gain control of the Goodwill property at an agreed-upon price and the City made him sign a contract that included fines for not hitting certain milestones. He's already missed a couple and is certain to miss more and the City Council will soon decide how to proceed including whether the fines will be enforced. The City was more or less forced into this situation and now is dealing with a very litigious lawyer and his entire law firm and of course Mazaheri is going to make the case that the pandemic is the primary reason for the delays. If they tried to levy fines, you can bet it would cost them a lot of money in legal fees because Mazaheri would likely fight them in court.

Even though the City Council may need to vote, they rely almost exclusively on the City Attorney office, and they handled the eminent domain, negotiated the settlement with Mazaheri, wrote the contracts regarding Goodwill, and then pretty much tell the Council what should be done. If there are issues, the should be focused on that office.

I will also say I completely reject this broad characterization that local developers don't deliver (either by changed scope or delays) and the City is somehow inept on this front. This is in no way unique to OKC and I've made this point over and over again.

I understand the frustration, but before people vent they need to educate themselves via the ample information that has been provided.

Very well said, Pete. There are a number of high quality local CRE developers in the OKC MSA (Gardner Tanenbaum, Gary Brooks, Ken McGee, Mark Beffort, Everett Dobson, etc.) who are risking substantial capital to give folks the sort of high-end amenities which used to require a long drive to Dallas or Kansas City.

Will the LA 2028 Olympic representatives have some input, this will be apart of their Olympics since funds are involved.
I have mixed feelings about that possibility. On one hand they could have some really good input. On the other hand Olympic designs very often don't stand the test of time. Even in the short term. And we'll have the arena development for many years.

Fool me twice, can't put the blame on you.
You fool me can’t get fooled again

Regarding the construction timeline I don’t think folks grasp the amount of utility line and other relocations that will be required simply to clear the Myriad/Prairie Surf site before a new building can come out of the ground. For instance, Paycom gets its heating and cooling through the Prairie Surf basement parking garage. It will be a lengthy process. Paycom needs to continue to have HVAC during what will likely be a couple of years of arena construction. And they can’t start until PSM vacates. Demo and relocations by themselves will likely take a year.

PSM could be bought out early.

They are effectively paying zero rent.

Regarding the construction timeline I don’t think folks grasp the amount of utility line and other relocations that will be required simply to clear the Myriad/Prairie Surf site before a new building can come out of the ground. For instance, Paycom gets its heating and cooling through the Prairie Surf basement parking garage. It will be a lengthy process. Paycom needs to continue to have HVAC during what will likely be a couple of years of arena construction. And they can’t start until PSM vacates. Demo and relocations by themselves will likely take a year.

That's pretty crazy. I had no idea the Myriad supplied the heating/cooling for the Paycom. I bet that saved a substantial amount of $$ back when Paycom was built, but I'd be surprised if those savings come anywhere close to covering what it will cost to separate the two in order to allow Paycom to continue operating while Myriad is torn down. That will be a massive undertaking on its own. Assuming the Paycom heating/cooling system is hydronic, keeping those systems going will require bringing in temporary chillers, cooling towers, boilers, pumps, etc.. All that equipment draws a substantial amount of power, which makes me wonder if the current electrical service to Paycom could handle that much additional load. Not to mention where they would be able to place that equipment temporarily. The list goes on and on... I'd be curious to hear the details on what all they will have to do to make that work.

I can almost guarantee you all this has long been decided and they have been working on these bigger issues for a while.

You can't actually start demo until Prairie Surf is out, but that could happen before their lease ends in Jan 2026 (and I TOLD you leasing to them was a bad idea!!) and they can certainly do all the engineering and planning in the meantime, then hit things hard.

That's pretty crazy. I had no idea the Myriad supplied the heating/cooling for the Paycom.

IIRC it is not "from" the Myriad" but it transits through the basement parking garage ..

The Goodwill property is far more complex and I've explained it in great detail and have even written articles about it.

Abridged version: Mazaheri sued the City over property they took from him via eminent domain that was in the middle of what is now Scissortail Park. For damages, he asked to gain control of the Goodwill property at an agreed-upon price and the City made him sign a contract that included fines for not hitting certain milestones. He's already missed a couple and is certain to miss more and the City Council will soon decide how to proceed including whether the fines will be enforced. The City was more or less forced into this situation and now is dealing with a very litigious lawyer and his entire law firm and of course Mazaheri is going to make the case that the pandemic is the primary reason for the delays. If they tried to levy fines, you can bet it would cost them a lot of money in legal fees because Mazaheri would likely fight them in court.

Even though the City Council may need to vote, they rely almost exclusively on the City Attorney office, and they handled the eminent domain, negotiated the settlement with Mazaheri, wrote the contracts regarding Goodwill, and then pretty much tell the Council what should be done. If there are issues, the focus should be on Kenny Jordan and his staff.

I will also say I completely reject this broad characterization that local developers don't deliver (either by changed scope or delays) and the City is somehow inept on this front. This is in no way unique to OKC and I've made this point over and over again.


I understand the frustration, but before people vent they need to educate themselves via the ample information that has been provided.

You get 1 shot with development, its ok if it's thought through and very meticulous

IIRC it is not "from" the Myriad" but it transits through the basement parking garage ..

I agree. I think the (used to be Trigen) heater/chiller system that is based at EK Gaylord & Sheridan is the source of the hot and cold water pipes that operate many buildings and towers downtown. Guessing they "Teed" off of the Myriad system when they built Paycom? now I wonder if that is what heats and cools the Convention Center and Omni?

I think Omni and the CC have their own HVAC, Omni definitely has units on the roof. ...

I also think BOK has its own HVAC too, covered by the false top floors.

I can almost guarantee you all this has long been decided and they have been working on these bigger issues for a while.

You can't actually start demo until Prairie Surf is out, but that could happen before their lease ends in Jan 2026 (and I TOLD you leasing to them was a bad idea!!) and they can certainly do all the engineering and planning in the meantime, then hit things hard.

If Prairie Surf isn't really paying much/anything and the city can't easily and quickly cancel the lease if needed someone at the city should be fired.

If Prairie Surf isn't really paying much/anything and the city can't easily and quickly cancel the lease if needed someone at the city should be fired.

I said at the time this deal was done it was a bad idea.

I suspect the City will end up paying *them* to leave.

I said at the time this deal was done it was a bad idea.

I suspect the City will end up paying *them* to leave.

PS should be a good corporate citizen and show their appreciation for all OKC has done for them by vacating their lease early if asked to do so. Not doing so would be a bad look for them.

PS should be a good corporate citizen and show their appreciation for all OKC has done for them by vacating their lease early if asked to do so. Not doing so would be a bad look for them.

Pretty sure they've already hit the "bad look" benchmark with the Tulsa King debacle.

PS should be a good corporate citizen and show their appreciation for all OKC has done for them by vacating their lease early if asked to do so. Not doing so would be a bad look for them.

Why would they if they don't have a place to go? You don't give up cheap rent for nothing.

Pretty sure they've already hit the "bad look" benchmark with the Tulsa King debacle.

But they told us it was a good thing! lol

Tulsa King is its own debacle.

Tulsa King is its own debacle.

One of the highest-rated streaming series and was renewed within weeks of launching the first season, something that is almost unheard of.

The show is a huge success by any measure.

Tulsa King is its own debacle.


I'm starting to wonder if there is ANYTHING you actually like. lol. You are quite the prolific hater.

I'm starting to wonder if there is ANYTHING you actually like. lol. You are quite the prolific hater.

He enjoys yelling at kids to get off his lawn and also enjoys shaking his fist angrily at clouds in the sky.

The show was a success for sure, but the Oklahoma City production team was anything but. There's a reason season 2 won't be shot here in OKC: https://thelostogle.com/2023/02/22/the-real-reasons-why-tulsa-king-ditched-oklahoma

I'm not the one hating on Oklahoma or PSM. Tulsa King has internal problems that having nothing to do with PSM and Season 2 might never be made. Paramount+ is losing dollars.

I'm not the one hating on Oklahoma or PSM. Tulsa King has internal problems that having nothing to do with PSM and Season 2 might never be made. Paramount+ is losing dollars.

So they are going to stop production on their most lucrative new show?

ALL television production is halted right now due to the writer's strike.


95% of what you post has no basis in reality.

(to clarify the debacle I was referring to was us losing season 2)

So they are going to stop production on their most lucrative new show?

ALL television production is halted right now due to the writer's strike.


95% of what you post has no basis in reality.

Production is stopped, and it was stopped long before the Writer's Strike.

Production is stopped, and it was stopped long before the Writer's Strike.

It was on hiatus!!! EVERY single series since the dawn of time goes on hiatus between seasons.

Good grief. I don't like to get personal with people but I simply can't believe half the things you post.

I guess we will know for sure once the writer's strike is over.

It was on hiatus!!! EVERY single series since the dawn of time goes on hiatus between seasons.

Good grief. I don't like to get personal with people but I simply can't believe half the things you post.

TBF, the showrunner stepped down due to creative differences and I don't think they've found a new one yet.