Just more proof that OKC will lose the Thunder if they don't basically cave into the Thunder's demands. OKC has no legs to stand on. They don't have the high ground. And it is things like this that make it harder for OKC to maintain.

Can they not use the arena where the hockey team plays?

better to have a separate arena .. premium dates and times for games ...

Just more proof that OKC will lose the Thunder if they don't basically cave into the Thunder's demands. OKC has no legs to stand on. They don't have the high ground. And it is things like this that make it harder for OKC to maintain.

True they have leverage.

Our ownership hasn't made any demands or put the city in any position to cave to demands.

We're going to need a new arena, so work with the ownership group and come up with something that satisfies the Thunder's needs and the city's needs.

That's why you think about a larger capacity (19,200-20,200) because you can always configure an arena to seat less and partition off seating areas you don't need.

Portland built the Moda Center (Rose Garden) in 1995, their MSA population estimate was 1,7 million. We (OKC) are following a similar path as the Rose City.

Group Announces Plan to Build New Arena in Las Vegas, Will Be Ready if NBA Decides to Expand

CEO of Oak View Group Tim Leiweke announced Wednesday during an interview with CNBC that his group has purchased 25 acres of land in Las Vegas to build a $3 billion sports and entertainment district that will include a 20,000-seat arena. With his announcement, he made it clear that if the NBA ever wanted to have a franchise in Sin City, the new venue could serve as its home.

SI link: https://www.si.com/nba/2022/03/30/las-vegas-nba-arena-rumors-sports-entertainment-district-oak-view-group

.

Wild. They already have T-Mobile which was built to NBA specs.

NBA is going to expand by 2 teams at some point, the expansion fees are going to offset the losses from Corona.

Seattle is 100% getting one of them.
The big debate is Vegas or KC. Leans Vegas because Lebron has expressed repeated interest in owning an NBA team there once he retires.

Remington Park was a dying horse track that got slot machines to save the horse industry in Oklahoma.

Oklahoma County is Unassigned Lands, which means no tribe has a claim on it. All but impossible for any tribe to get any approval and (I think) all other tribes in Oklahoma would have to approve anyone's attempt.

T Mobile Arena in Las Vegas has the Vegas Golden Knights as anchor tenant. Anchor tenant means they control all dates and own all advertising in the arena. No NBA team has to be behind that. That is why OVG is trying to build another arena. I don't think it is gonna happen.

Las Vegas and Kansas City both have MSA rankings around 30. Both also have 2 "Big 4" league teams. Las Vegas has the NHL Vegas Golden Knights and the NFL Raiders. KC has the NFL Chiefs and MLB Royals. NBA does not like sharing in such relatively small markets. Las Vegas also is burdened with placing a second NBA team in the Pacific time zone, which is a television challenge. Louisville at MSA number 43 with zero "Big 4" teams is most likely for second NBA expansion team. The problem with NBA expansion is that a $2 billion expansion fee doesn't offset what it removes from the revenue pie. Needs to be around $3 billion and that is about 10 years away.

.

MAPS has been that game-changer:

What we need: An NBA specific arena, stay focused on that, a two year extension of MAPS 4; then we can think about MAPS 5.
Fortunately for us, sales tax collections are running 7% ahead of projections--will need that cushion to fight inflation. Estimate $131 million per year collections.

With $70 million on pause, we would need to extend MAPS 4 (eight-year period, $978 million), two or three years:

. . . 2017 GO-BONDS expire 2027 (One source that could help partially fund new arena)
. . . MAPS 4 Renewal vote (December 2027); collection would begin April 1, 2028


. . . $131 million 2029 ($70 + $131 = 201 million - Year 1)
. . . $131 million 2030 ($332 million - Year 2)
. . . $131 million 2031 ($463 million - Year 3) option

Oklahoma City could fund a new arena thru an extension of 2017 Go Bonds & an extension of MAPS 4:
Go Bonds expire in 2027 and MAPS 4 extension would need to be renewed
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsUzMZWKHkc

https://flintco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/heroMEM-FedExForum-Exterior-3web-1200x630.jpg
Construction cost: $250 million, Opened: September 6, 2004, NBA capacity: 17,794
The arena is 805,850 ft (75,000 m²) in size, covering 14 acres (57,000 m²). The Arena is round, with a dome.
NBA Grizzlies spent 2001-2004 playing at the Memphis Pyramid Arena before moving to the Fedex Forum.

Our voters appreciate the fact that OKC's leadership have been 'good stewards' of MAPS funds. They want a new arena; one that will make our city and fans proud, make those eyes take a 'second look' with a memorable OKC experience.

Our voters will approve 'quality' as they did with the Bricktown Ballpark considered the springboard for MAPS' momentum.

Posters on this forum are excited about the prospects of a new arena, hopefully it will be comparable to the NBA's best, used by all for concerts and a variety of large gatherings.

An arena that will match our new convention center and hotel. Captivate ' the eyes' with a favorable impression of our city.

A Thunder Live zone will be cool, it only needs to put a highlighted accent on its surroundings.

Only logical move IMO would be to use Bonds (2027) and MAPS 2028 for 24 months quickly raise $400 million to build something comparable to American Airlines Center (Dallas) on our city owned Cox site.

MAPS 5 collections then could begin 2029 with that December extension vote in 2028.

My gut feeling come October, the city & ownership will agree on a development plan to address the major concerns the Paycom Center was lacking.

My gut feeling come October, the city & ownership will agree on a development plan to address the major concerns the Paycom Center was lacking.Right. And I expect it will be some time after that before everything that needs to be addressed gets addressed and a plan comes together enough for any kind of public announcement. The one thing they can't do with the new arena is miss something because they hurried.

Right. And I expect it will be some time after that before everything that needs to be addressed gets addressed and a plan comes together enough for any kind of public announcement. The one thing they can't do with the new arena is miss something because they hurried.

Bill, you are correct; they can miss something. Hope they allow some public input.

You can't "build it, and they will come" with large, large projects on the city taxpayers dime. If there isn't demand, then you don't build it. If a private developer wants to? Sure. But not with city money. The guy who keeps saying we should build a 10k seat esports arena as ttached to an 8k seat opera house is asinine, since those would rarely, if ever, get used here. I'm just speaking in reality. Pie in the sky is great, until you make 99% of a city who doesn't give a crap pay for those projects.
You have to start somewhere and what’s the city doing to even begin that process? I agree that it is a pie in the sky proposal but I like those better than the constant “value engineering” crap we constantly see here.

i mean MAPS 4 doesn't end until 2028. there is no way they are talking about MAPS 5 projects in October 2022. and i think there is close to 0% chance that the new arena for the Thunder waits until MAPS 5. if that money doesn't start coming in until 2029, then construction wouldn't start until probably 2030 or 2031.

This arena is coming much sooner than that.

i mean MAPS 4 doesn't end until 2028. there is no way they are talking about MAPS 5 projects in October 2022. and i think there is close to 0% chance that the new arena for the Thunder waits until MAPS 5. if that money doesn't start coming in until 2029, then construction wouldn't start until probably 2030 or 2031.

This arena is coming much sooner than that.Agreed. I would guess we'll be asked to approve a bond issue sometime in 2023 or 2024. After a thorough study of the Thunder's and NBA's desires/requirements is completed and agreed upon.

You have to start somewhere and what’s the city doing to even begin that process? I agree that it is a pie in the sky proposal but I like those better than the constant “value engineering” crap we constantly see here.

Yeah, but compared to "pie in the sky" proposals, everything is "value engineered".

The biggest MAPS voters have approved was MAPS 4 with a $978 million projected budget. That was about a 25% increase over MAPS 3. So, if a MAPS 5 had the same increase in projected budget, it would be in the $1.2 to $1.3 billion range.

Eventually, those that decide what projects will be used to sell MAPS 5 to the voters will have to work within a budget, while factoring the opportunity costs (both financially and politically) relative to each project on the list and to those NOT on the list.

Dreaming about pie in the sky projects is fun, for sure. Just like dreaming about what you'd do if you won the lottery is fun, but what are the odds of winning the lottery, again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery_mathematics#:~:text=If%20the%20six%20numbe rs%20on,happening%20is%201%20in%2013%2C983%2C816.) ?

So, anyone can dream all they want, but dreaming has no budget. I would have assumed everyone understands that, so it's strange to me that anyone would get upset by anyone pointing that out.

So, say, MAPS 5 does have a 25% increase over MAPS 4, the numbers for an arena thrown about by some would take up most, or even all, of that budget.

I believe our last GO Bond was 2017 and had a $967 million budget and that was one of the biggest, if not the biggest, ones ever passed, correct?

Both MAPS 4 and the 2017 GO Bond contained multiple projects.

I do think the majority of the city would support a new arena, but does that translate into enough political support for a GO BOND or MAPS vote that is bigger than any we have ever passed before, but is only for one project?

I'm sure that's exactly the process the mayor's office is evaluating right now. but I'd be surprised if that climate right now. I don't think this can be done via MAPS as a single project and the mechanics of MAPS is not not timeline friendly. I imagine this is going to have to be done creatively, either via multiple funding sources or with it being lumped in with other projects to sweeten the pot.

I'd be in favor of a new arena in theory, but I do think it's going to be as easy as just coming up with pretty pictures and putting it to a vote.

I tend to agree. I think whatever is proposed will pass but I also don't think the city can sit back, put their feet up, and just assume it will happen. Also, assuming construction costs and supply chain and labor issues normalize by the time construction starts and assuming we don't have to buy any land to make it happen (Prarie Surf site) I'd be surprised if it takes a billion $ to get what most of us would agree we want (and I'm firmly on team "let's do this right and make it very good").

The financing side (including the politics re: which way to go) is interesting. Bonds make sense of course, though it'll be interesting to see where interest rates will be at that point in time (I'd assume we'll be out of / almost out of the current downturn by the time any bonds are actually issued so hopefully it wouldn't cost the city too much more then than it would today). A sales tax (outside of MAPS) definitely has its benefits, though there's the timing factor and would be curious how much more pushback there would be to an additional tax on top of MAPS 4 (assuming they would run concurrently - I'd guess it would still pass, though a bit less palatable).

First...I am all for the new arena and think we should partner up with Thunder ownership and help them build as big a public/private arena and entertainment district covering several blocks as we can dream of.

A couple things I am surprised I don't hear about regarding any city's arena churning are-

The environmental costs of discarding mega expensive and relatively new civic investments. The incomparable Myriad is barely 50 years old and covers multiple blocks in the city core, yet we are all too happy to bulldoze it and will probably do the same with Paycom Arena in less than 10 years. No sense having 2 18,000 seat arenas side by side.

The historical preservation angle. It is easy to rally the troops around the old City Jail or 900 N. Klein, but these arenas that were massive civic investments get crickets. With zero snark, I wonder why that is?

...

The historical preservation angle. It is easy to rally the troops around the old City Jail or 900 N. Klein, but these arenas that were massive civic investments get crickets. With zero snark, I wonder why that is?

Because the arenas aren't historically significant/interesting like the other buildings are, they're fairly generic?

No sense having 2 18,000 seat arenas side by side.


We made two arenas work side by side for 20 years. I think if Paycom Center can be repurposed into part of the convention center and revamped into a nice concert venue or similar. Structurally the building is sound and has modern amenities that the Myriad/COX never had.

Because the arenas aren't historically significant/interesting like the other buildings are, they're fairly generic?

Reminds me of the John Huston line in Chinatown

"Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."

Doubt if you will see anything over $400 million for a new arena on city-owned property with the preferred Cox site as the most feasible location:

Parking: Cox Convention Center 950, Convention Center Parking Garage 1,106,
Santa Fe Garage Parking 1,500, Century Center Parking 779, Main Street Parking 1,150
Arts District Parking 801, Metro Parking Garage 986, BOK Parking Garage 1,500
Devon Parking Garage 2721. Total in largest garages 11,493

The lease with Prairie Surf Media is for five years with three one-year extension options. It calls for stepped-up lease payments from Prairie Surf starting at $150,000 for the first and second years, $300,000 for the third year, $450,000 for the fourth year, $600,000 for the fifth year, and $825,000 plus all utility costs in excess of $1.1 million for each annual extension option.--Oklahoman - Lackmeyer, December 9, 2020

Source: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/business/columns/steve-lackmeyer/2020/12/09/lease-approved-okcs-cox-center-now-in-the-movie-business/315480007/

October 2022 is the initial date for the discussion to begin.

The environmental costs of discarding mega expensive and relatively new civic investments. The incomparable Myriad is barely 50 years old and covers multiple blocks in the city core, yet we are all too happy to bulldoze it and will probably do the same with Paycom Arena in less than 10 years. No sense having 2 18,000 seat arenas side by side.

The historical preservation angle...

Hmmm... The Pei Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pei_Plan).

That's an interesting factor in this I hadn't thought of. Is there anything of value left from that other than the Myriad or 'the re-imagined multiple times' concourse?

It resulted mostly in parking lots netted from torn down structures, but the myriad convention center did get built. Is there anything else left that actually got built?

Yeah, but compared to "pie in the sky" proposals, everything is "value engineered".

The biggest MAPS voters have approved was MAPS 4 with a $978 million projected budget. That was about a 25% increase over MAPS 3. So, if a MAPS 5 had the same increase in projected budget, it would be in the $1.2 to $1.3 billion range.

Eventually, those that decide what projects will be used to sell MAPS 5 to the voters will have to work within a budget, while factoring the opportunity costs (both financially and politically) relative to each project on the list and to those NOT on the list.

Dreaming about pie in the sky projects is fun, for sure. Just like dreaming about what you'd do if you won the lottery is fun, but what are the odds of winning the lottery, again (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lottery_mathematics#:~:text=If%20the%20six%20numbe rs%20on,happening%20is%201%20in%2013%2C983%2C816.) ?

So, anyone can dream all they want, but dreaming has no budget. I would have assumed everyone understands that, so it's strange to me that anyone would get upset by anyone pointing that out.
Agreed on all points. I do like the idea of investing more in the performing arts in OKC though.

Agreed on all points. I do like the idea of investing more in the performing arts in OKC though.

I do too, for sure.

Where would you start, though?

Investing more in the performers (artists) or in the venue in which they perform?

17596 Remember the old Populous/GSB concepts for the Convention Center? It would be cool if the new arena had a Modern Oklahoma vibe like this.

17596 Remember the old Populous/GSB concepts for the Convention Center? It would be cool if the new arena had a Modern Oklahoma vibe like this.

Really like this because it reflects that blend Oklahoma rose rock and red clay.

Really like this because it reflects that blend Oklahoma rose rock and red clay.
I love it too. Put the steep seating in there like you posted a picture of a few pages ago and it would be great.

I know it isn't performing arts, but I'd be ok with a new amphitheater. Like, the one is Dallas (near the fair) or Cynthia Woods in the Woodlands. We get passed over so many times because the Zoo either sucks at getting shows, doesn't try, or isn't big enough.

Zoo Amp is about 7k capacity I think. They typically get a couple of shows a year that I might be interested in, but I agree that it's probably underused. I think the one in Dallas (formally the Starplex / Schmirnoff (?)) is about 20k.

I always thought a larger amphitheater on the river would be cool and, if big enough, wouldn't really compete with the Zoo Amp. If it could be next to scissortail and integrated into the park, that would nice. I think we were close to getting one via private investment at one point, which may be why I don't think it became part of a MAPS proposal. At this point, though, I think we're closer to a multi-use stadium that may be able to fill the role of outdoor concert venue in the downtown area. Having another one may just saturate the market.

Zoo Amp is about 7k capacity I think. They typically get a couple of shows a year that I might be interested in, but I agree that it's probably underused. I think the one in Dallas (formally the Starplex / Schmirnoff (?)) is about 20k.

I always though a larger amphitheater on the river would be cool and, if big enough, wouldn't really compete with the Zoo Amp. If it could be next to scissortail and integrated into the park, that would nice. I think we were close to getting one via private investment at one point, which may be why I don't think it became part of a MAPS proposal. At this point, though, I think we're closer to a multi-use stadium that may be able to fill the role of outdoor concert venue in the downtown area. Having another one may just saturate the market.

I think we could kill the Zoo Amp if we had another one, and then add on to the Zoo more.

I do too, for sure.

Where would you start, though?

Investing more in the performers (artists) or in the venue in which they perform?
It seems to me we’d have to build up our performers before we could really invest big bucks in a new facility. It’d be like building a massive world class museum with no art pieces. So yeah I see what you mean. We need more philanthropists like Kaiser in Tulsa.

Agree that the 2,500 we currently have is more than sufficient size wise.

Based on a quick Google search, there's not a single theatre in the world that has even 4,000 seats, much less 8,000. The MET is 3,900 and is the largest room in the world. The entirety of Lincoln Center is a little over 10,000 with 6 theaters (the MET, 2 approx 2,700, and 2 approx. 1000, plus a few smaller ones).

The entire capacity of the Sydney Opera House is 5,700 over six rooms, with the only two over 550 seats being 2,679 and 1,507.

The Bolshoi has a capacity of 1,740.

The largest PAC under one roof in the world in Taiwan has a 2,236 seat opera house, 1,981 seat concert hall, 1,210 seat play house, and 434 seat hall.

The Busan Opera House, a proposal for which was previously linked to (and which I agree does look awesome - but which is not the design that was actually selected) has a capacity of around 2,300.

To the extent the Civic Center isn't world class, it does not seem like capacity is the reason. I've regularly patronized all sorts of different shows at the Civic Center for decades and while I think certain groups do things very well, providing world-class opera, symphony, theatre, ballet, etc. requires a critical mass of people willing to go to and fund such productions. Though it's vastly better than it was probably even 10 years ago, I'd love to say we're there culturally as a city but I'm not sure that's the case or will be for some time (as much as I want to think otherwise).

Amway Center, Orlando, FL


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF-NJrKUvnc


Opened October 1, 2010
Construction cost: $480 million
NBA seating capacity: 18,846
876,000 SF



What would be the construction cost to build a similar size arena in Oklahoma City on city-owned land. Amyway Center located in Downtown Orlando. The arena itself cost around $380 million, with an additional $100 million for land and infrastructure, for a total cost of $480 million (as of March 8, 2011 the arena was expected to be within $10 million of the estimated cost.

Wikiwand: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amway_Center

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpg7atI59A0

I like those arena ideas, just don't know if we could get any developers behind building like this, given how cheap land is, thus reducing the need to build up. I wouldn't mind something like the Winnipeg Arena. Having a restaurant attached would be great, but as we saw with Coaches at the ballpark, it doesn't always work.

Good points, chssooner.

Surface parking, he did a number on that idea.

Restaurants, most friends I know want to go away from the arena/stadium to a different location.

Good points, chssooner.

Surface parking, he did a number on that idea.

Restaurants, most friends I know want to go away from the arena/stadium to a different location.

Probably because gameday has the highest traffic of all days and most vendors around an arena will keep their prices high as hell just because of proximity. But in terms of a restaurant, it can be a logistical nightmare if they're so close in proximity to the sports stadium as opposed to being away from it.

If the Paycom Center took a queue from the Mercedez Benz Stadium in Atlanta, keep their food prices reasonable and low, you would see commercial success. But again, most business near sports stadiums like to hike their prices based on proximity to the action. That's why beer can be $5 for a small cup, $6.50 for a medium, and $7.95 for a large (and the large drink in volume will still fit in a small cup in this business). They know you're willing to spend money to get something to bite on while you're at the game. Might as well up the costs for that convenience.

Probably because gameday has the highest traffic of all days and most vendors around an arena will keep their prices high as hell just because of proximity. But in terms of a restaurant, it can be a logistical nightmare if they're so close in proximity to the sports stadium as opposed to being away from it.

If the Paycom Center took a queue from the Mercedez Benz Stadium in Atlanta, keep their food prices reasonable and low, you would see commercial success. But again, most business near sports stadiums like to hike their prices based on proximity to the action. That's why beer can be $5 for a small cup, $6.50 for a medium, and $7.95 for a large (and the large drink in volume will still fit in a small cup in this business). They know you're willing to spend money to get something to bite on while you're at the game. Might as well up the costs for that convenience.
We went to the restaurant in the arena a handful of times. I don't recall it being much if any more than similar places. But we usually went somewhere else like Laramie said just because we have places we like.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c38aac4822c6d8f9054253d462881875?AccessKeyId=42537 7285ED5A42A3568&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
NBA Basketball Capacity - 20,356
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Capital_One_Arena_interior_2017-04-19.jpg/640px-Capital_One_Arena_interior_2017-04-19.jpg




Capital One Arena (Verizon Center 1997)
106 suites, Tour spaces suites https://www.capitalonearenasuites.com/tour-spaces
Capital Once Center 1,020,000 square feet vs. Paycom Center 581,000 square feet
Broke ground: October 18, 1995
Opened: December 2, 1997
Construction cost: US$260 million/land acquisition $119 million (difference $141 million)
(US$480 million in 2022 dollars)

What would it cost to build an arena of similar size on the former Cox Convention Center site; $141 million is worth $263 million
today.

Would estimate that at the inflation rate we're probably looking at $350 million total construction cost on city owned land in 2027 with a 2029-30 opening date. All of this could fit on the Cox CC site with room for the city to sell excess space.

Request that the Thunder (Anchor tenant) chip in half or all of the naming rights revenue toward building the new arena.

Inflation calculator instrument: https://www.inflationtool.com/us-dollar/1997-to-present-value?amount=141000000&year2=2022&frequency=yearly

An arena of this size and magnitude would attract more DT hotels and land more future bids for a number of NCAA events.

What are your thoughts on a similar blueprint arena being built in the OKC Cox 4 sq block site on city-owned land.

New arena? OKC’s relationship with the Thunder faces an expensive test


https://nondoc-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/DSC_5255-640x417.jpg
Link: https://nondoc.com/2022/07/26/okc-thunder-new-arena-discussion-starts/
Jim Traber Afternoon Sports Podcast interview with OKC Mayor David Holt: https://twitter.com/mattravis/status/1547691000776167425?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1547782772801957888%7Ctwgr% 5E3bf0f2df8800b6fb8cdc3686c9404641d68ef95c%7Ctwcon %5Es4_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnondoc.com%2F2022%2F07%2F26% 2Fokc-thunder-new-arena-discussion-starts%2F

I read the nondoc article and it seems this will be a hard sell city wide. A lot on this board want it but the same people want everything so to speak.

I’m fully against it. If they leave fine. We have a lokg term MAPS already taxed for next 9 years or thereabouts. City messed ip making MAPS 10 years vs doing focused 2 year timelines, giving ability to adjust every 2 years as city changes.

On top of adding another tax in a low cost state/city to build a new state of art facility means ticket prices would increase along with all concessions. It would price out this market.

In the article it mentions how the Thunder value increase isn’t money in bank. But to go from valuation of $350m to $1.3b is an increase of $950m. Its still a value increase and technically the owners could borrow against it as collateral if they wanted money now.

As for the team they got lucky with the original draft happened right when the team moved and that energy will never be duplicated. But even so they could mot afford to keep them as it requires the owners to go deep in lux tax, which they had a limit meaning there is a ceiling. The major cities will always buy up the top talent and OKC will stay as a “feeder” team. Meanimg we’ll draft great (Presti is good at that) but will never be able to draft to a title as grewt players will want to leave for big city teams who will go all out to win title. OKC can’t compete with that kind od money so become a feeder team even when good.

The city has grown too fast in the past 20 years and our services/roads are not even close what they need to be. We have a lot going but if we spend $500m plus to fatten up owners wallets the citizens will suffer with infrastructure. We have a large city land wise but reading this board it seems downtown focused. I listen to people in burbs and they feel completely forgotten by leadership as all big money is focsed on downtown while their standard of living suffers. A majority of people I talk to in burbs are against funding a new stadium. Quote a few mention MAPS 4 seems like a big stretch so I think they feel left out.

If Thunder leave we know due to markets we’ll never have NFL. So maybe can get soccer and NHL which might be better fits and money better spent (less tax money needed). Then have more money to improve whole city not just downtown. We would survive just fine without Thunder.

Thats 2 or 3 cents worth of my opinion. I know it won’t jibe with most who post here.

Your a novice in both respects and its quite blatant. Detroit and Milwaukee are prime examples of having success without the need of being in a major market. As far as your “evaluation” goes all you have to do is look up is similar markets to OKC costs and public investment. And as far as being taxed I personally have no issue with it its not substantial enough for even the common individual to feel its effect and its well worth it being that its revitalized our city and has a history of having our city’s support.

Your a novice in both respects and its quite blatant. Detroit and Milwaukee are prime examples of having success without the need of being in a major market. As far as your “evaluation” goes all you have to do is look up is similar markets to OKC costs and public investment. And as far as being taxed I personally have no issue with it its not substantial enough for even the common individual to feel its effect and its well worth it being that its revitalized our city and has a history of having our city’s support.

It would be great to have these conversations without responses like this (having pro-tax payer funded arena posters look down on other people).

Detroit's not even that great of an example. Know why? Detroit has a historical legacy. It's history goes beyond OKC's. It has/had a massive corporate base and still currently boasts a metro population of over 4 million people.
Milwaukee isn't even that great of a counter example. Milwaukee's success is a very recent phenomena with Giannis, who I think admittedly, doesn't mind Milwaukee and is just grateful to be where he's at. He's an anomaly in that respect. That could change in a few years, however, as is often the case once the luster and the polish of the trophy wears off. Everyone moves away at some point.


Other similar NBA markets (and thus, better examples) would be New Orleans, SLC, and Memphis. Go to this list and tell me how many championships you see for New Orleans, SLC, Memphis, and OKC? It reaches a point in these smaller markets where they will show flashes, but all in all the rules of the road will be the larger market teams dominating. I'd bet OKC sees a rehash of the early years where Presti drafts amazingly, OKC has a good run (with maybe a Finals appearance or two, maybe even a chip) that is then inevitably followed by a hollowing out of the team as the stars go elsewhere. Then it's years of mediocrity all over again where the local team simply becomes a novelty. An expensive one at that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions

Not everyone watches or enjoys basketball. And the infatuation with the posters on here of being a "big league city" and wanting the respect of other peer cities is something you won't really find with most other people. It's concentrated in spheres like this where the majority of us are interested in the developments of our cities and who are usually well traveled. That's why it may be a hard sell to others while people like you thumb your nose at them with terse (putting it nicely) responses like this.

For the record and to prevent people making assumptions: I suppose I'd consider myself a Thunder fan but I really don't watch the NBA. I've been to a few games since 2008, literally like 3 or 4 both regular season and playoff. I can live the rest of my life not going to another game but that's just me. Am I happy the Thunder are here? Sure. Do I think they can benefit OKC and the greater state as a whole? I guess. How many businesses or people have moved to OKC/OK simply because of the Thunder? Probably not as many as we want to believe.
Luckily, this discussion doesn't impact me like it does an OKCer who will have to pay for it. Nonetheless, the greater conversation of taxpayer funded arenas and this being in the state I live in intrigues me.

I read the nondoc article and it seems this will be a hard sell city wide. A lot on this board want it but the same people want everything so to speak.

I’m fully against it. If they leave fine. We have a lokg term MAPS already taxed for next 9 years or thereabouts. City messed ip making MAPS 10 years vs doing focused 2 year timelines, giving ability to adjust every 2 years as city changes.

Haven't any problems with a decade of planning. MAPS 4 collections period is 8 years.

On top of adding another tax in a low cost state/city to build a new state of art facility means ticket prices would increase along with all concessions. It would price out this market.

RESPONSE: The new arena will be used by the Thunder 50% of the time. Thunder will be anchor tenant; are paying $40,000 per game/$1.64 million year rent, higher than concerts and other events

In the article it mentions how the Thunder value increase isn’t money in bank. But to go from valuation of $350m to $1.3b is an increase of $950m. Its still a value increase and technically the owners could borrow against it as collateral if they wanted money now.

RESPONSE: Thunder will not own the arena; they will be the anchor tenant. Only a handful of NBA cities have totally private funded arenas. Privately funded arenas have more autonomy over who they want to lease to or reject certain events.

As for the team they got lucky with the original draft happened right when the team moved and that energy will never be duplicated. But even so they could mot afford to keep them as it requires the owners to go deep in lux tax, which they had a limit meaning there is a ceiling. The major cities will always buy up the top talent and OKC will stay as a “feeder” team. Meanimg we’ll draft great (Presti is good at that) but will never be able to draft to a title as grewt players will want to leave for big city teams who will go all out to win title. OKC can’t compete with that kind od money so become a feeder team even when good.

RESPONSE: Better Streets, Safer City bonds passed in 2017 (10-year, $967 million bond package) Our streets & roads are being addressed.

There are plenty of cities waiting on Oklahoma City to blink. Cities like Austin, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Columbus, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Louisville, Ontario, CA, Pittsburgh, Providence, Raleigh, Richmond, San Diego, Seattle, San Jose, St. Louis, Tampa Bay & Virginia Beach-Norfolk.

The city has grown too fast in the past 20 years and our services/roads are not even close what they need to be. We have a lot going but if we spend $500m plus to fatten up owners wallets the citizens will suffer with infrastructure. We have a large city land wise but reading this board it seems downtown focused. I listen to people in burbs and they feel completely forgotten by leadership as all big money is focsed on downtown while their standard of living suffers. A majority of people I talk to in burbs are against funding a new stadium. Quote a few mention MAPS 4 seems like a big stretch so I think they feel left out.

RESPONSE: Oklahoma City is growing fast, our sales tax collections are over projections. Plans have not been revealed about funding; this will be the discussion. The larger and more educated we get, the more quality corporations and industries we will attract.

If Thunder leave we know due to markets we’ll never have NFL. So maybe can get soccer and NHL which might be better fits and money better spent (less tax money needed). Then have more money to improve whole city not just downtown. We would survive just fine without Thunder.

RESPONSE: If we fail as an NBA city, what makes you think the NHL will want to come here let alone the NFL. The NHL rejected OKC in 1997 because they recognized we couldn't built a quality competitive arena for $90 million. The NFL's last two stadiums, Las Vegas Allegiant Stadium ($1.9 billion--opened in 2020; and Los Angeles Sofi Stadium, $5.5 billion--opened in 2020.

Thats 2 or 3 cents worth of my opinion. I know it won’t jibe with most who post here.

RESPONSE: Your opinion OKC Guy matters as does the opinion of many who post on this forum. We don't want to lose an NBA franchise (Vested owners from Oklahoma's two largest MSA), They could easily cash in the franchise for $1.6 billion with serious suitors in 24 hours. Seattle would love to pluck this franchise from our city, that would give the Emerald City all four major professional franchises.

If you do not reside in OKC than how can you yourself quantify it's impact. At the end of the day we have access to a global sport industry that is the NBA and that cannot be overlooked. As far as the status quo of major markets dominating that can be said in any industry but you won't see anyone arguing with a seat at the table. You continue to generalize the notion of not everyone enjoying basketball which could be true but empirical data would contradict. So please quit with your subjective view on this matter because its all opinion based.

If you do not reside in OKC than how can you yourself quantify it's impact. At the end of the day we have access to a global sport industry that is the NBA and that cannot be overlooked. As far as the status quo of major markets dominating that can be said in any industry but you won't see anyone arguing with a seat at the table. You continue to generalize the notion of not everyone enjoying basketball which could be true but empirical data would contradict. So please quit with your subjective view on this matter because its all opinion based.

Welp, you all heard it here! If you do not reside in OKC you cannot even begin to try and quantify the impact of the OKC Thunder.

And a newsflash for you, everything posted in this thread, literally every comment has a subjective element to it. The entire point of forums is for people to discuss their opinions, exchange facts, etc. If that's a problem to you, you're doing this whole forums thing incorrectly.
And your very generalized response to my counterpoints is expected considering I squashed your original points pretty adamantly.

I hope you have a wonderful day and I will stop here before any further derailing occurs.

The NBA Thunder franchise has an impact on this state as a whole; especially the two largest Oklahoma City-Tulsa media markets. IIRC there were 2,500 - 4,000 season ticket holders from the Tulsa MSA.

Tax payers who are going to foot the bill for the arena if bonds (September 2027 extension) and/or possibly an extension of MAPS funds used to finance the venue are primarily from the OKC area. Already have $70 million (growing interest) on pause. Also President's Biden's infrastructure bill may have funds for which cities qualify.

The Cox Convention Center site, if selected will save OKC at least $150 million on land and parking (950 spaces underneath; $300 million for a new arena total investment $520 million = $300 million bonds, $150 million Cox site & $70 million MAPS 4 funds on pause growing interest could be used to finance by extending the bonds for 3 years or more without extending MAPS 4 funds. We're going to be given a new life line to get this done right.

My preference is a blueprint similar to Capital One Center, Washington D. C., 20,000 seats. We can partisan off 1.500 seats if we don't need to use the full arena.

Keep living in your own little fantasy world :D

Keep living in your own little fantasy world :D

Not fantasy, just gave you some facts on one method the arena could be financed thru extending bonds that will expire in September 2027. Tell me what's fantasy about the method. :D The 2017 Go Bonds 5 years (2022), with 5 years left.

Extension of those bonds in 2027 could allow for the arena development to begin construction in late 2027 or early 2028. The $70 million (paused) growing interest could be used to get the project started as early as 2026 to prep the Cox 4 square block site for demolition, design, artist's rendering & pre-construction.

Anybody else seeing Kevin Hart this weekend?

I wanted to but I already had plans to be out of town. I didn’t even realize he was coming until I went to the Kendrick Lamar concert in July and there was promotional material for him in the arena.

Here are OKC's major economic engines for debt free and paying off debt thru bonds:


MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects (Eight to ten years)
Bonds (Nine to ten years
Hotel/Motel Tax revenues

Major projects resulting from the MAPS & Bond votes:

2022-26: New State of the Art, Downtown Arena - Primary tenant - NBA Oklahoma City Thunder Project cost: In-process...

2019: MAPS 4 Fairgrounds Coliseum $97 million = $63 million/$9 million MAPS surplus funds and estimated $25 million of Hotel Tax revenues earmarked by law to improvements at the OKC Fairgrounds.

2017: Expansion of ASA Hall of Fame Stadium (included private donation: $20.3 million 2017 GO Bonds.
Officials say the improvements are part of a contractual obligation that will keep the World Series in town through the 2035 season.

2009: Scissortail Park: $132 million MAPS 3

2001 $694 million - MAPS for Kids went before voters in 2001: $514 million. $180 million Oklahoma City Public Schools bond issue, which was used for school facility improvements, technology and transportation projects. Seventy percent of the sales tax funds were disbursed to the Oklahoma City Public School District and 30 percent to surrounding suburban districts.

1993: Paycom Center/NBA Thunder Practice Facility: Investment; $207 million = $89.2 million/90 million (MAPS for Hoops) $8.9 million 2017 GO Bonds

INTEGRIS Health Thunder Development Center $19 million

Here are OKC's major economic engines for debt free and paying off debt thru bonds:


MAPS (Metropolitan Area Projects (Eight to ten years)
Bonds (Nine to ten years
Hotel/Motel Tax revenues

Major projects resulting from the MAPS & Bond votes:

2022-26: New State of the Art, Downtown Arena - Primary tenant - NBA Oklahoma City Thunder Project cost: In-process...

2019: MAPS 4 Fairgrounds Coliseum $97 million = $63 million/$9 million MAPS surplus funds and estimated $25 million of Hotel Tax revenues earmarked by law to improvements at the OKC Fairgrounds.

2017: Expansion of ASA Hall of Fame Stadium (included private donation: $20.3 million 2017 GO Bonds.
Officials say the improvements are part of a contractual obligation that will keep the World Series in town through the 2035 season.

2009: Scissortail Park: $132 million MAPS 3

2001 $694 million - MAPS for Kids went before voters in 2001: $514 million. $180 million Oklahoma City Public Schools bond issue, which was used for school facility improvements, technology and transportation projects. Seventy percent of the sales tax funds were disbursed to the Oklahoma City Public School District and 30 percent to surrounding suburban districts.

1993: Paycom Center/NBA Thunder Practice Facility: Investment; $207 million = $89.2 million/90 million (MAPS for Hoops) $8.9 million 2017 GO Bonds

INTEGRIS Health Thunder Development Center $19 million



My comment was directed at TU’ Cane I understand your point.

Went to the Poison concert at BOK Saturday night. $40 to park at lots close to the arena. Felt like I was in Chicago all over again. Is Paycom still $20? Also the concourse at BOK is just so much better. Food section maybe not as much but more places to eat and much more elbow room to walk around expect in a few spots.

Went to the Poison concert at BOK Saturday night. $40 to park at lots close to the arena. Felt like I was in Chicago all over again. Is Paycom still $20? Also the concourse at BOK is just so much better. Food section maybe not as much but more places to eat and much more elbow room to walk around expect in a few spots.

Next time you go to the BOK Center, there's a parking garage area that's mostly covered / underground a block or two south that's between the Courthouse and Police Station that's a self-serve lot and it's only $5.

Went to the Poison concert at BOK Saturday night. $40 to park at lots close to the arena. Felt like I was in Chicago all over again. Is Paycom still $20? Also the concourse at BOK is just so much better. Food section maybe not as much but more places to eat and much more elbow room to walk around expect in a few spots.

If you can get to the Cox Convention Center underground parking early, the last time I used it was early 2019--it cost $10.00 or maybe $20.00, it fills up fast. You need to be careful parking off site from the Paycom Center (Peake); there may be impostors collecting parking fees on private lots.

Took my girlfriend and her friend (working at a concert) to the area, was asked to pay $15.00 behind a building near the old abandoned Rescue Mission (Spooky). Noticed police were driving around and the guy (wearing loud orange vest) quickly said I'll be back.'

My mind, that drew a red flag. Got ready to pay the guy--he never returned. Walked to my brother's codo (where parking was full there); returned later when my girlfriend texted me that they were ready. Never paid the $15.00, so, I can only guess what happened there.

The area on event nights can make you feel a little cautious and uneasy. B/C some people are walking around like 'zombies' asking for change or help. Always keep snacks, shoes & coats in my trunk--you never want to reach for a wallet in areas you're not familiar with b/c you don't know if a person's 'got game.'

Always keep some protection with you in your vehicle--in case someone wants to act 'ugly.'

Holt clarified even further in an interview today:


"We have the smallest one by square footage in the NBA. We have the second cheapest one," said Holt. "If you're sitting in a 20 year old arena, and the average age of NBA arenas is 21, and you know that you're years away, the better part of a decade, from opening a potential new facility, you just start to do the math and realize now is the time."

- https://okcfox.com/news/local/new-thunder-arena-coming-okc-mayor-says-early-talks-happening

A group of nearly 100 Oklahoma City officials, leaders and Thunder representatives traveled to Milwaukee, in part, to see the Fiserv Forum.


Milwaukee MSA Population - 1,566,487/City/569,330 - Wisconsin 5,895,908 - MLB, NBA
Oklahoma City MSA Population - 1,441,647/City 687,725 - Oklahoma 3,986,639 - NBA

Fiserv Forum, Capacity 17,341 (basketball) Construction cost: $524 million
Source: https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Journal/Issues/2018/10/29/Franchises/Fiserv-Forum.aspx



https://assets.biztimes.com/uploads/2019/05/Relocation-Guide-2019-Stats-on-the-region-Fiserv-Forum-e1561581542671-696x391.jpg

https://www.eua.com/media/7422/fiservforum_night_ext_610x570.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFQJldmRUvA