Ok now I'm freaked out. Thunder can't leave.

Ok now I'm freaked out. Thunder can't leave.

The city will vote yes for anything like that.

Bob Howard isn't even one of the 4 biggest owners. And of those owners (Bennett, McClendon Estate, Records & Kaiser) I've been told only Records & Kaiser are strong enough financially to weather the poor attendance and no playoff money much longer.

Hahahah. Thunder turned a huge profit last year. You have no idea how nba finances work.

Does anyone have thoughts on specifically why Paycom can't be modified to be competitive?

There is plenty of seating capacity, loads of suites and club-level (which are huge revenue generators for the team) and certainly room to expand in a couple of directions.

Holt kept talking about the small amount of square footage but what specifically are we lacking?

Perhaps they want even more suites and premium-level seating? You'd think that would even be possible in the current building.

It’s just dated in every aspect. They’ll reach for something like the Clips are building or what GSW built at chase.

This is kinda the 3rd wave of NBA arenas (paycom is 2nd).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaneyoung/2022/06/08/la-clippers-announce-new-details-for-the-intuit-dome-halo-board-manufactured-by-daktronics/amp/

Huge 100 level and pushing suites back is the latest trend.

Hahahah. Thunder turned a huge profit last year. You have no idea how nba finances work.

I was told this by a someone very close to one of the Thunder's principal owners so I'll be trusting him and not you. And I didn't say last year, although their earnings dropped precipitously last year, I said for "much longer". And next year SGA and Dort get big raises.

Hahahah. Thunder turned a huge profit last year. You have no idea how nba finances work.

Do you have financial statements? Id be interested to see those.

Doesn’t have 2022 but league wide revenues topped $10B.
https://runrepeat.com/nba-revenue-statistics
https://amp.centredaily.com/news/business/article263412663.html

Nba has profit sharing mechanisms for tax paying teams, and other programs to keep everyone profitable.
There’s no chance the thunder are losing money. Zip zero nada.

I was told this by a someone very close to one of the Thunder's principal owners so I'll be trusting him and not you. And I didn't say last year, although their earnings dropped precipitously last year, I said for "much longer". And next year SGA and Dort get big raises.
Hahahahahahahahah

Lou Dorts raise is gonna hurt the owners. Broooooooo. The guy is pulling your leg.

MLS is absolutely a major pro league

The thunder has until 2027 to have a new stadium as the extended lease is up in 2026

No way it would take 10 years, one World Trade Center took 9 years from beginning to end

Yes. From the vote passing, to the arena opening, it very well could take near 10 years just as it did the last time. MAPS has typically been on the ballot every ten years or so with the last one passing in 2019. It would probably be 5 years minimum before it comes up for a vote.

MLS is a pro league, it just currently doesn’t carry as much weight as the big four, though it probably has closed the gap on the NHL quite a bit.

Hahahahahahahahah

Lou Dorts raise is gonna hurt the owners. Broooooooo. The guy is pulling your leg.

How did we even survive with KD, Westbrook, and Adams among others on the team at the same time??!?! Lol

Yep, I’ve kinda felt like this was brewing for a while. I think now is 100% time to start having the conversation but I am curious to see what the Thunder/City are thinking as far as timeline. I’ve been to many arenas around the nation for concerts and sports and our arena is as average as average gets. It’s certainly not bad by any means but by the time we can discuss, vote, and construct a new arena the Paycom Center will become more and more outdated (with renovations or not). I actually think a “Seattle-like” take it down to the studs type of reconstruction and bowl reconfiguration would be preferable if it’s feasible and cost effective. If it’s a new arena, the Cox CC site makes too much damn sense to me for it to not end up there. You could continue operations in Paycom for the next decade while funding and redevelopment of the Cox site is planned. The city already owns the land so one of the first major hurdles is already cleared…. I personally believe that with the trajectory this city is on we’ll be ready for a new arena within the next decade and a half.

I understand the argument that arenas owned by billionaires shouldn’t be subsidized by taxpayers and I don’t necessarily disagree. The city really just has no leverage whatsoever & voting no for a new facility very likely means a bidding war for the team. Regardless, a new facility like this should 100% be put to a vote and let the people decide.

Correction^ I meant arenas for teams owned by billionaires, I understand that the Paycom Center is owned by the City of Oklahoma City. Don’t roast me plz honest mistake!!

Yeah, data from the playoffs is cherrypicking a bit (especially since you're citing one from 2011...) given the current state of the Thunder roster. Larger, more robust studies show little to no significant benefit (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355133656_Thunder_Up_The_Taxes) on sales taxes and other things. If the Thunder weren't around, it's not like people wouldn't spend money for entertainment at all. This is why all these arguments about sports being a huge boon kinda fall apart, because folks will still go to bars, restaurants, hotels and other things regardless if there's a team in town.

I think you’re discovering in real time that there isn’t a lot of data out there, since you so strongly suggested we have the data yet the best you could find was a couple of old news articles that aren’t really robust economic studies.

That study actually finds a significantly positive increase in tax revenues after the Thunder arrive, consistent with the thunder providing significant value to the community.

I think you’re referring to study’s home game analysis, which studies if tax revenues are higher in the months when the thunder have more home games. But that measure may be flawed. For example, if tickets are bought in advance, how does that show up. Also, what exactly is this variable capturing in the sample period for the years before the thunder moved here, or in the off-season months?

How did we even survive with KD, Westbrook, and Adams among others on the team at the same time??!?! Lol

Sold out arena every game and playoff revenue and even then they lost money some years. The Thunder had neither in '20-'21 and no playoff revenue and greatly reduced attendance in '21-'22. And again, I'll take the word of one of the principle owners over a message board rando.

Doesn’t have 2022 but league wide revenues topped $10B.
https://runrepeat.com/nba-revenue-statistics
https://amp.centredaily.com/news/business/article263412663.html

Nba has profit sharing mechanisms for tax paying teams, and other programs to keep everyone profitable.
There’s no chance the thunder are losing money. Zip zero nada.

The Thunder lost money as recently as two years ago.

https://thunderousintentions.com/2020/02/13/annual-forbes-nba-valuation-okc-thunder/

"As for profits, the OKC Thunder are on an island as the only NBA team that failed to recognize a profit due to that nasty luxury tax."

I hope your day job is not an odds maker.

The Thunder lost money as recently as two years ago.

https://thunderousintentions.com/2020/02/13/annual-forbes-nba-valuation-okc-thunder/

"As for profits, the OKC Thunder are on an island as the only NBA team that failed to recognize a profit due to that nasty luxury tax."

I hope your day job is not an odds maker.

Either way, none of this is really addressed by building a new arena. I'm sure they could make a little more money than if they stayed in the current arena, but even that would need to be inventive because the NBA pools most of its revenue anyway, so more suites and more seats just marginally increases the big pot shared between all teams. (This is part of the reason for the pressure from the league itself to update arenas).

Realistically, if we have a vote passed 3 years from now, start construction in 2028 to complete in the early 2030s, they're not going to leave if we've shown that level of commitment.

25 years for the team in the current arena I think is respectable. Like Pete, I lament that we are okay with that as a nation, but whatever. I think one potential advantage of having both arenas is that we now have probably 60+ days back per year to bring in other big shows to the current arena. Would be pretty cool to have Kings of Leon and other such things same day/time as a Thunder game.

Holt said on Twitter that the goal is to have a solid plan in place by the end of this decade.

Either way, none of this is really addressed by building a new arena. I'm sure they could make a little more money than if they stayed in the current arena, but even that would need to be inventive because the NBA pools most of its revenue anyway, so more suites and more seats just marginally increases the big pot shared between all teams. (This is part of the reason for the pressure from the league itself to update arenas).

Realistically, if we have a vote passed 3 years from now, start construction in 2028 to complete in the early 2030s, they're not going to leave if we've shown that level of commitment.

25 years for the team in the current arena I think is respectable. Like Pete, I lament that we are okay with that as a nation, but whatever. I think one potential advantage of having both arenas is that we now have probably 60+ days back per year to bring in other big shows to the current arena. Would be pretty cool to have Kings of Leon and other such things same day/time as a Thunder game.

I doubt we would have two arenas right next to each other for any extended period of time but who knows, maybe they would keep Paycom. Just seems like a lot to maintain for minimal benefit.

Holt said on Twitter that the goal is to have a solid plan in place by the end of this decade.

Seems pretty reasonable.

Sold out arena every game and playoff revenue and even then they lost money some years. The Thunder had neither in '20-'21 and no playoff revenue and greatly reduced attendance in '21-'22. And again, I'll take the word of one of the principle owners over a message board rando.

It’s hard to use anything that’s happened between 2020-2022 as a predictor of future revenues. While it’s no guarantee, I’m sure they’re counting on attendance recovering as the team improves and as we move past the pandemic and cover the cost of those contracts.

They need to put a plan in place now, not at the end of the decade. If the City drags their feet, we can lose the Thunder. Thats just how the ball rolls.

"Solid plan" would have to be a voter-approved initiative, the only way the city could guarantee the Thunder a new facility.

That only leaves 7 years to develop concrete plans, lock down a site, and have everything approved by voters.

It's easy to see why Holt is talking about this now and you can bet they already have a general plan in place (size, cost, site alternatives).

Also, I would expect the remaining MAPS4 funds earmarked for Paycom to be redirected to Populous for new arena plans and design.

Keep in mind that Holt draws a salary from Hall Capital, the group that jointly owns the property west of Paycom.

Not implying anything nefarious, just raising this point as we discuss possible locations.

I wouldn't be surprised if some preliminary talks have been held about placing the new arena on that empty parcel with Hall Capital and Bob Howard developing around it, perhaps even the redevelopment of the Paycom site.

Pure speculation on my part. It might be a good way to do much more than just build a new arena and could be another huge step forward for downtown, especially since new office development is not going to happen for at least the next decade.

Why does it have to be voter-approved initiative, why couldn't be a private-public partnership?

Why does it have to be voter-approved initiative, why couldn't be a private-public partnership?

Because OKC doesn't have the money to do this just lying around.

It has to come from somewhere and to get access to those types of funds, there would have to be a bond issue or sales tax surchange and those require voter approval.

All this is still true if there is some type of partnership. There are all types of public/private arrangements through MAPS, for example.

Keep in mind that Holt draws a salary from Hall Capital, the group that jointly owns the property west of Paycom.

Not implying anything nefarious, just raising this point as we discuss possible locations.

I wouldn't be surprised if some preliminary talks have been held about placing the new arena on that empty parcel with Hall Capital and Bob Howard developing around it, perhaps even the redevelopment of the Paycom site.

Pure speculation on my part. It might be a good way to do much more than just build a new arena and could be another huge step forward for downtown, especially since new office development is not going to happen for at least the next decade.

I think tearing down the current facility and building new is the best option. and have the team housed in Tulsa at the BOK Center for the duration of construction would be viable. Keeps the team in Oklahoma, and fans from OKC can still attend games, and give a little boost to the Tulsa area. Will probably be looking at 2-3 seasons in Tulsa.

Doesn’t have 2022 but league wide revenues topped $10B.
https://runrepeat.com/nba-revenue-statistics
https://amp.centredaily.com/news/business/article263412663.html

Nba has profit sharing mechanisms for tax paying teams, and other programs to keep everyone profitable.
There’s no chance the thunder are losing money. Zip zero nada.

The way I've understood most team franchise ownership doesn't operate heavily in the green, and that it's truly just a long term investment strategy with the added benefit of being able to brag that you own the local team. Typically owning a team pays huge long term capital gains over the lifespan of ownership though.

I could see some of the membership group starting to get itchy fingers. Getting a new stadium would probably keep those from being too fidgety I imagine.

MLS is absolutely a major pro league

The thunder has until 2027 to have a new stadium as the extended lease is up in 2026

No way it would take 10 years, one World Trade Center took 9 years from beginning to end

major legue lacrosse is also a major pro league .. .and the WNBA ....

lol MLS revenue is still far far behind the big 4 ..

Yes. From the vote passing, to the arena opening, it very well could take near 10 years just as it did the last time. MAPS has typically been on the ballot every ten years or so with the last one passing in 2019. It would probably be 5 years minimum before it comes up for a vote.

MLS is a pro league, it just currently doesn’t carry as much weight as the big four, though it probably has closed the gap on the NHL quite a bit.

The thunder owners agreed to a 3 year extension to keep the thunder in OKC as long as their needs are met. If it takes 10 years the thunder will be in another city.

This will happen and it will be ready by late 2026 and I'm sure this issue has been in the works and just now coming to the public.

The only time the Thunder probably really lost money was the Carmello Anthony, Paul George and Russ era, when they were into the luxury tax, and might have gotten into the repeater tax. They went all in to go as far as possible while Clay Bennett was ill. Luxury tax is, what, 3 dollars tax for every dollar over the salary cap? And the repeater tax is something like8 dollars IIRC.

I think they were around 75 million dollars in tax

major legue lacrosse is also a major pro league .. .and the WNBA ....

lol MLS revenue is still far far behind the big 4 ..

So it isn't a professional league because its doesn't generate as much as the other leagues?

The U.S. MLS teams that have their own dedicated stadiums blow away the paycom center like Q2 in Austin (capacity 20k+, cost 260 million), GEODIS Park in Nashville (capacity 30k, cost $355 million and largest MLS stadium in the U.S. and Canada which opened last May), and TQL stadium in Cincinnati (capacity 26k, cost $250 million), Providence Park in Portland (capacity 25K+, cost $502 million)

Funny that people still think MLS doesn't bring in much revenue and doesn't have that many fans.

MLB 1903
NFL 1920
NHL 1917
NBA 1949
MLS 1993

Wonder why MLS is not as big as the other four????

MLS has increased in popularity following the adoption of the Designated Player rule in 2007, which allowed MLS to sign stars such as David Beckham and Thierry Henry. In 2014, MLS reported an average attendance of 19,148 per game, with total attendance exceeding 6.1 million overall, both breaking previous MLS attendance records. With an average attendance of over 20,000 per game, MLS has the third highest average attendance of any sports league in the U.S. after the National Football League (NFL) and Major League Baseball (MLB) and is the seventh highest attended professional soccer league worldwide

More people in the U.S. attend MLS games than they do NBA or NHL games

Wonder why MLS is not as big as the other four????

because it is soccer ..

because it is soccer ..
The most popular sport on earth lol

The most popular sport on earth lol

and yet we live in the USA

North Carolina:

Charlotte- City Council approves $275 million for Spectrum Center upgrades, practice facility: https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/charlotte-leaders-discuss-renovating-spectrum-center/OYYLBWOS7NH6VB3BAKDQA54AFQ/

Raleigh - PNC Arena to take on more modern look, feel with planned renovations. Here’s the latest: https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article262959613.html#storylink=cpy https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article262959613.html

.

North Carolina:

Charlotte- City Council approves $275 million for Spectrum Center upgrades, practice facility: https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/charlotte-leaders-discuss-renovating-spectrum-center/OYYLBWOS7NH6VB3BAKDQA54AFQ/

Raleigh - PNC Arena to take on more modern look, feel with planned renovations. Here’s the latest: https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article262959613.html#storylink=cpy https://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article262959613.html

.

Charlotte has a team and the spectrum is 200k square feet larger and five years younger than paycom

Raleigh's PNC is pretty big at 700k square feet but it is 23 years old and it is dedicated to the NHL team the Carolina Hurricanes

Louisville KFC Yum! Center clocks in at 721,762 and it is only 12 years old, like someone already said I bet that would be the next city to get an NBA team

The thunder owners agreed to a 3 year extension to keep the thunder in OKC as long as their needs are met. If it takes 10 years the thunder will be in another city.

This will happen and it will be ready by late 2026 and I'm sure this issue has been in the works and just now coming to the public.

lol quit speaking in such absolute terms…no that is not how it will work, thats never how it’s worked here and that’s not what anyone thinks the thunder will do timeline wise …just read Pete’s commentary on David Holt’s comments up the thread. “Have a solid plan in place by the end of the decade.” Which means the campaign and vote will have happened by the end of the decade…which fits the timeline of every other MAPS program vote we’ve taken outside of supplemental ones. There have definitely been talks behind the scenes but this is still in its infancy. Case in point, voting to spend $70 million on paycom just a little over two years ago.

There is no way in hell a new arena will be built and ready by 2026. It is borderline insane to think it will happen that quickly. There would have to be a vote this year (after maps 4 only passed a little over 2 years ago), and construction would need to start almost immediately.

lol quit speaking in such absolute terms…no that is not how it will work, thats never how it’s worked here and that’s not what anyone thinks the thunder will do timeline wise …just read Pete’s commentary on David Holt’s comments up the thread. “Have a solid plan in place by the end of the decade.” Which means the campaign and vote will have happened by the end of the decade…which fits the timeline of every other MAPS program vote we’ve taken outside of supplemental ones.

There is no way in hell a new arena will be built and ready by 2026. It is borderline insane to think it will happen that quickly. There would have to be a vote this year (after maps 4 only passed a little over 2 years ago), and construction would need to start almost immediately.

I'm sure you are right. GSW played at the Oakland arena for like 50 years and the announcement of the Chase Center in SF was 2012, made it on a 2014 ballot which passed and the arena opened in 2019 so a good 7 years

crazy how old the Oakland arena is

Over three decades, the arena grew outdated, lacking the luxuries of newer ones. With just over 15,000 seats, it was one of the smallest venues in the league. Rather than building a new arena in Oakland, San Francisco or San Jose, the decision was made to proceed with a US$121 million renovation that involved tearing out much of interior and building a new seating bowl within the existing structure. The original walls, roof and foundation remained intact, similar to the rebuild of Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle. The renovation began in mid-1996 and was completed in time for the Warriors' return in the fall of 1997 (they played the 1996–97 season at the San Jose Arena, now the SAP Center at San Jose, home of the NHL's Sharks). Included in the renovation was a new center overhead LED scoreboard and 360-degree fascia display. The new configuration seats 19,596 for basketball.

That study actually finds a significantly positive increase in tax revenues after the Thunder arrive, consistent with the thunder providing significant value to the community.

I think you’re referring to study’s home game analysis, which studies if tax revenues are higher in the months when the thunder have more home games. But that measure may be flawed. For example, if tickets are bought in advance, how does that show up. Also, what exactly is this variable capturing in the sample period for the years before the thunder moved here, or in the off-season months?

Every study that ever gets quoted is for a replacement stadium.

Which makes sense. Taxpayers spend $1B to keep something they already have.

They never study the arrival of a new team which has massive impacts. Enormous. Thunder payroll alone is $100MM for the team. That's state tax revenue, players buying bigger houses, increased media jobs (Royce Young, although he left ESPN. Andrew Schelct works for The Athletic though), media traveling in for playoffs games, team staying hotel nights.

It unquestionably a boom when a team moves in, not including ancillary effects like the perception of OKC being one of the 40ish big 4 pro sports towns.

Now that it's a 1 for 1 swap, there won't necessarily be a further uptick. But like all things in life, things decay and you have to keep investing just to stay in place. You put money into your home don't you? Sometimes huge chunks. Same thing with the NBA, the league will continue to grow, next TV contract is expected to triple in revenue. Players salaries will continue to increase.

lol quit speaking in such absolute terms…no that is not how it will work, thats never how it’s worked here and that’s not what anyone thinks the thunder will do timeline wise …just read Pete’s commentary on David Holt’s comments up the thread. “Have a solid plan in place by the end of the decade.” Which means the campaign and vote will have happened by the end of the decade…which fits the timeline of every other MAPS program vote we’ve taken outside of supplemental ones. There have definitely been talks behind the scenes but this is still in its infancy. Case in point, voting to spend $70 million on paycom just a little over two years ago.

There is no way in hell a new arena will be built and ready by 2026. It is borderline insane to think it will happen that quickly. There would have to be a vote this year (after maps 4 only passed a little over 2 years ago), and construction would need to start almost immediately.

lol it is way way further down that road then you think ... a new arena won't be build by 2026 but a full agreed to plan will be in place before 2026

Holt made it a point to mention even after the voters approved the present arena through MAPS, it didn't open until 9 years later.

Obviously that timeframe can be compressed but the vote only came after the site was nailed down, they had plans, etc. and we're not close to that point yet.

I'd be surprised if the Thunder were playing in a new home before 2030.

The Thunder lost money as recently as two years ago.

https://thunderousintentions.com/2020/02/13/annual-forbes-nba-valuation-okc-thunder/

"As for profits, the OKC Thunder are on an island as the only NBA team that failed to recognize a profit due to that nasty luxury tax."

I hope your day job is not an odds maker.

They were deep into the tax that year. They knew they were going to lose money.

When you're in the tax, the taxpayers distribute to non-taxpayers.

I said this year, which was profitable. They were at the minimum salary level, ticket sales good enough, and distributions from the league will be big. (especially give the taxes the Warriors and others will pay)

The entire fight last CBA round was about keeping the smaller market teams profitable while in the lottery.

lol quit speaking in such absolute terms…no that is not how it will work, thats never how it’s worked here and that’s not what anyone thinks the thunder will do timeline wise …just read Pete’s commentary on David Holt’s comments up the thread. “Have a solid plan in place by the end of the decade.” Which means the campaign and vote will have happened by the end of the decade…which fits the timeline of every other MAPS program vote we’ve taken outside of supplemental ones. There have definitely been talks behind the scenes but this is still in its infancy. Case in point, voting to spend $70 million on paycom just a little over two years ago.

There is no way in hell a new arena will be built and ready by 2026. It is borderline insane to think it will happen that quickly. There would have to be a vote this year (after maps 4 only passed a little over 2 years ago), and construction would need to start almost immediately.

It almost feels like they are angling to eat up a huge chunk of MAPS 5, which is fine. They are the crown jewel of the city. It's what sets OKC apart from Tulsa, Albuquerque, Louisville, Omaha, etc

lol it is way way further down that road then you think ... a new arena won't be build by 2026 but a full agreed to plan will be in place before 2026

Do you mean a full plan or the vote will have happened by then? I'm sure a full plan will be out, maybe even before 2026, but I doubt it makes it to a vote by that time unless it will be completely separate from a MAPS vote, which is certainly possible but I find it difficult to believe they'd try to use something other than the MAPS sales tax to fund it. Obviously the 2007-2008 vote to enhance the arena comes to mind but this isn't just dropping $100 million for upgrades and would likely be the most expensive individual proposal since the advent of MAPS.

We all knew this day would come. My greatest fear all along was not how the franchise would perform financially, but whether the city would continue to support them when, A) they lose a lot of games, and B) when the ownership asks for a new arena.

We are fortunate that we have local owners, so they understand the political and financial implications in OKC.

I agree that a vote of the people, up or down, would be the best way to handle it. Maybe we could include it in the next GO bond issue.

Do you mean a full plan or the vote will have happened by then? I'm sure a full plan will be out, maybe even before 2026, but I doubt it makes it to a vote by that time unless it will be completely separate from a MAPS vote, which is certainly possible but I find it difficult to believe they'd try to use something other than the MAPS sales tax to fund it.

there will need to a final plan (approved) before the renew past 2026

there will need to a final plan (approved) before the renew past 2026

Approved by whom? The team and the city or voters?

Either way if there was an agreed upon arena plan in place by 2026 and a vote scheduled at some point after 2026 I highly doubt they'd just not sign an extension and peace out. Probably would extend until the vote took place, start turning the screws if the vote didn't pass, make another attempt at getting it funded while seeking alternative cities, and then attempt to make the move or sell the team if the second attempt failed. At least that's how it played out in Seattle and the owners wanted out from the second they purchased the team and Shultz sold the team after the first attempt at a new arena failed (or the city passed I-91 that prevented funding for new arenas)...can't remember the exact timeline.

It certainly possible to move a team but it's a lot easier to stay put, especially if that's where the ownership group wants it. There's no reason to think those guys are eager to bolt from OKC or sell the team and I think they'll legitimately exhaust every opportunity here (whether a new arena or substantial upgrade/rebuild of Paycom).

It almost feels like they are angling to eat up a huge chunk of MAPS 5, which is fine. They are the crown jewel of the city. It's what sets OKC apart from Tulsa, Albuquerque, Louisville, Omaha, etc

Yeah I mean if we're looking at a near $1 billion arena, that would probably be all of it.

Yeah I mean if we're looking at a near $1 billion arena, that would probably be all of it.

I would guess it's going to be north of $1B, especially given the cost inflation 7 years from now . Legislature isn't going to chip in. City and Thunder will figure it out.

Excess Maps 4 probably gets put into it as well.

This would probably need to be a stand-alone project.

The current MAPS will collect sales tax until 2028 and it would take about 7-8 years after that to collect $1 billion.

My gut is that this will be a bond issue rather than sales tax, which would also require a vote.

This would probably need to be a stand-alone project.

The current MAPS will collect sales tax until 2028 and it would take about 7-8 years after that to collect $1 billion.

My gut is that this will be a bond issue rather than sales tax, which would also require a vote.

Do you think that would hurt it's chance of passing given the MAPS name recognition and association with big projects like this?

There really isn't much difference between the two funding methods when it comes to the public.

MAPS is taking from sales tax and bonds just authorizes the city to go out and borrow money and then pay it back with future revenues.

I think tearing down the current facility and building new is the best option. and have the team housed in Tulsa at the BOK Center for the duration of construction would be viable. Keeps the team in Oklahoma, and fans from OKC can still attend games, and give a little boost to the Tulsa area. Will probably be looking at 2-3 seasons in Tulsa.

That would be an option for two seasons (BOK Center seats 17,839 for basketball/17,096 hockey. It would test Tulsa's market for possible NHL down the road.

If Tulsa were to get NHL (similar in size OKC in l996 when we applied for the NHL) you would have both leagues in the State. Then, when the BOK Center is remodeled, the NHL could reside in OKC... Silly thought; however who thought OKC would have an NBA franchise housed for 14 years and now talking about a new arena.

Better option: Keep the Paycom Center available while the new arena is being constructed.

With MAPS we can only spend after we've collected as I recall, so it would have to be a Bond or they're not gonna be in there until 2040.

BTW saw this in this mornings Oklahoman (07-15-2022):

The project would be built on the former Interstate 40 easement between Oklahoma City Boulevard and the arena. Designs submitted by Bockus Payne Architecture show a development with significantly more street presence than the first renderings submitted earlier this year.

They are more further along with drafts for this project than Holt talked about in the 'State of the City Address.'

With MAPS we can only spend after we've collected as I recall, so it would have to be a Bond or they're not gonna be in there until 2040.

MAPS has historically been 'pay as you go' but the penny sales tax could be extended then issue a GO bond and pledge that future revenue.

One way or another, this is almost certainly going to be funded by a bond issue.

Keep in mind that OKC has done a continuous stream of GO bonds much like MAPS and those funds have been used mainly for street projects and public infrastructure. If we took out a $1 billion bond for a new arena, we would have a lessened ability to do the same for future public projects.

Every study that ever gets quoted is for a replacement stadium.

Which makes sense. Taxpayers spend $1B to keep something they already have.

They never study the arrival of a new team which has massive impacts. Enormous. Thunder payroll alone is $100MM for the team. That's state tax revenue, players buying bigger houses, increased media jobs (Royce Young, although he left ESPN. Andrew Schelct works for The Athletic though), media traveling in for playoffs games, team staying hotel nights.

It unquestionably a boom when a team moves in, not including ancillary effects like the perception of OKC being one of the 40ish big 4 pro sports towns.

Now that it's a 1 for 1 swap, there won't necessarily be a further uptick. But like all things in life, things decay and you have to keep investing just to stay in place. You put money into your home don't you? Sometimes huge chunks. Same thing with the NBA, the league will continue to grow, next TV contract is expected to triple in revenue. Players salaries will continue to increase.

Actually, this study (https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=econuht) (link now fixed) does precisely that and finds little macroeconomic benefit for the Thunder coming to OKC (or any significant cost felt by Seattle for the Sonics leaving).

Actually, this study (http://https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=econuht) does precisely that and finds little macroeconomic benefit for the Thunder coming to OKC (or any significant cost felt by Seattle for the Sonics leaving).

Link doesn't work...

Pete, you're correct on this. " If we took out a $1 billion bond for a new arena, we would have a lessened ability to do the same for future public projects. "

Imagine a $1 billion arena in downtown OKC.

Also, keep in mind the opportunity costs involved. Imagine what OKC could do with $1b invested in education and infrastructure instead of investing in a noncompetitive sports team that plays only 41 games at home. Oklahoma just lost out on Tesla and Panasonic investing here. Being an attractive draw for companies is a much more sustainable way of growth and ROI than giving Chet Holmgren a better court.

I said this year, which was profitable.

I never disputed that, but you also claimed this as if losses never happen in the NBA:


Nba has profit sharing mechanisms for tax paying teams, and other programs to keep everyone profitable.

I really don't know what an NBA CBA guru like you is even arguing about. All I said was:


I've been told only Records & Kaiser are strong enough financially to weather the poor attendance and no playoff money much longer.

I was told this by someone that got his information directly from one of the principle owners. I don't expect anyone to accept this insider information blindly and I'm not going to name my source because he wouldn't want his name to be thrown around on a message board, but I've given Pete several times in the past information from this source regarding information about the owner in question that turned out to be true so Pete can vouch for the worthiness of my source.

In the long run, I don't think it would shock anyone if some of the owners who aren't as financially stable as Kaiser and Records were to struggle if attendance continues to be poor and there is no playoff money for a few year as the payroll inevitably grows bigger. But hey, if you have better sources than I do combined with your vast knowledge of NBA financials feel free to ignore my posts. It's no skin off my back if you don't believe me.