So when a big concert gets cancelled is there something still in the contract that the Arena still gets something? Oh and JT didn't cancel cause of his back no one is buying that. Ticket sales were horrible for his OKC show all the more reason the new arena will probably be smaller capacity wise.

How do you know ticket sales were low? OKC rarely, if ever, has issues selling tickets for their concerts.

^^^^^^^^^^^
Ticket sales for JT were definitely slow. But that most likely has more to do with JT than it does the OKC market.

How do you know ticket sales were low? OKC rarely, if ever, has issues selling tickets for their concerts.

Well a worker told me it was like around 7,000. Plus I was checking everyday for a week cause I was debating about going and there were plenty and I mean plenty of seats for sale 2-3 weeks out. Than they all of a sudden stopped sailing tickets in the upper bowl. Also if an artist cancels last minute it gets reschedule. Manilow, Luke Bryan both cancelled both had new dates right away. So all signs point to ticket sales.

all the more reason the new arena will probably be smaller capacity wise.

very doubtfull

Slow ticket sales would be reflective of an industry more so than a market specific problem. Arena sales have been down in general. Entire tours were cancelled this year and it had been reported that JT has had slow sales in several markets.

The new arena's capacity will be dictated by demand for its primary tenant, not the demand for Justin Timberlake shows.

What happens when a show does get cancelled. Does the venue still get something since they have had to reserve that date? While a JT concert won't be a deciding factor it does go too show that tickets for many things are down. So why build it bigger. Plus less seats means more demands which means more money in resale values. My money is around 17,000 for basketball. It's 18,209? now

What happens when a show does get cancelled. Does the venue still get something since they have had to reserve that date? While a JT concert won't be a deciding factor it does go too show that tickets for many things are down. So why build it bigger. Plus less seats means more demands which means more money in resale values. My money is around 17,000 for basketball. It's 18,209? now

How much cost savings for shrinking by a few thousand? Just seems like it wouldn't be worth the risk to cap it off at a lower capacity when the population of the city is growing. Its easy to drape off some seats, but next to impossible to add seats 10 to 15 years down the road.

Here's a fairly recent article. I doubt sales will remain down forever.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/concert-ticket-sales-why-are-artists-canceling-shows-tours-prices-rcna154558

I mean, newer, better, more upscale amenities means you can charge more per seat. So cutting maximum seats to boost amenities is very, very likely.

How much cost savings for shrinking by a few thousand? Just seems like it wouldn't be worth the risk to cap it off at a lower capacity when the population of the city is growing. Its easy to drape off some seats, but next to impossible to add seats 10 to 15 years down the road.

Here's a fairly recent article. I doubt sales will remain down forever.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/concert-ticket-sales-why-are-artists-canceling-shows-tours-prices-rcna154558

This is the main reason why OKC should go ahead and build an arena in the 19,100-seat range. Portland doesn't fill its 19,393 seat venue; we know there's more to do in Portland
than OKC with less than 1 million people than the Rose City.

Our new arena will cost more than a billion; build it to the current NBA average 19,100; if this is too much capacity for the team in 2028; like the suggestion to drape off some seats.
We need an arena with a minimum of 19,100 seats to compete with cities like Louisville (22,000 seats), Greensboro (23,000 seats), Raleigh (19,500) and Nashville (19,300).

What happens when a show does get cancelled. Does the venue still get something since they have had to reserve that date? While a JT concert won't be a deciding factor it does go too show that tickets for many things are down. So why build it bigger. Plus less seats means more demands which means more money in resale values. My money is around 17,000 for basketball. It's 18,209? now

I think arena operators, ticket brokers and tour promoters are very closely interlinked today. I'm guessing cancellation charges are carefully defined, and have multiple dates before show where the cost changes based on possible replacements for the date, etc. Seems like a cancellation less than 15 days before the show without a make up promise would have the highest charge to the performer.

Intuit Dome in LA is brand new and 18,000 people. Chase Arena is five years old and holds 18,000 people. Fiserv is 17,500. Kings Arena is 17,500. Barclays is 17,700. All of those were built new in the last 15 years. The only one that is larger is the Pistons arena at 20,000 and I am sure they are not filling that for basketball right now.

I mean, newer, better, more upscale amenities means you can charge more per seat. So cutting maximum seats to boost amenities is very, very likely.

True, Seat count is probably a very bad measurement to measure arena size. Your initial arena design does limit you to how many seats you can upgrade to more premium in future remodels. The upper bowl will always be your cheaper seats. They can make them larger but there is only so much you can do.

I'm guessing arenas have the same overall diameter though and what adds space is how far up and out you go?

Intuit Dome in LA is brand new and 18,000 people. Chase Arena is five years old and holds 18,000 people. Fiserv is 17,500. Kings Arena is 17,500. Barclays is 17,700. All of those were built new in the last 15 years. The only one that is larger is the Pistons arena at 20,000 and I am sure they are not filling that for basketball right now.

yep i would expect the new arena to be between 17,500 and 18,000 seats .. right around the current 18,203 . ..

It's not going to be much bigger, and there's a 90% chance we follow the well established trend that it's a little smaller.

I too think it will be within a few hundred of what we now have. But that opinion came from directly between my back pockets based upon nothing more than the seating capacity of other arenas in different places and circumstances decided upon over a decade ago. It means absolutely nothing and will have no bearing on the outcome.

Our consultants and designers (presumably selected for their extensive knowledge and experience with multi-use arenas) will review pertinent historical data, current trends and best practices and then meet with stakeholders (OKC, Thunder, current arena operator, etc.) to understand site specific conditions, concerns and objectives. Then they will conduct an informed and thoughtful analysis to arrive at a recommended target seating capacity give or take a few hundred.
My opinion nor any other opinion not based on the meaningful data used for the analysis will tip the scales a single gram. It will be what it will be and I’m sure it will be well considered.

I swear every few pages is a rehash of capacity discourse lol

I swear every few pages is a rehash of capacity discourse lol

There is only spend much to discuss when we don't have any clue as to what it will look like. Only hypothetical discussions of capacity or amenities.

There is only spend much to discuss when we don't have any clue as to what it will look like. Only hypothetical discussions of capacity or amenities.

well said. i bet they 2x the number of suites, drop capacity to 17.5k, raise ticket prices by ~30% across the board, and substantially increase the number of premium event spaces.

So I assume Prairie Surf Studios is pretty empty at this point? Unless they are waiting for the last minute to move out.

They haven't made any effort to update their website, but I guess if you don't have any news on where you will end up there is no reason to.

^

Not only that, they don't have anywhere to go.

I believe they are going to try and build a new facility in the Stadium District, but that would be at least a year away, and probably more like 2.

They have a ton of equipment. Perhaps they'll rent space somewhere in the interim.

well said. i bet they 2x the number of suites, drop capacity to 17.5k, raise ticket prices by ~30% across the board, and substantially increase the number of premium event spaces.

Not sure how many suites they’ll add. If you walk around the club level and look the names on the suites, the thunder seems to control a bunch of them. I’m sure some of that is intentional in order to sell partial season suite tickets and maintain some flexibility but it just seems like there should be more individuals and companies with suites than there are in the mix. I could see them adding more loge boxes.

Would be interested to hear what the suite demand looks like from someone who has some inside knowledge on it.

Season's Greetings (Merry Christmas), Pete and OKCTalk.com viewers. Looking forward to the new year 'designs & specs' for our new downtown arena and multipurpose stadium. 'Cheerios, old chap,' and don't forget to add Blackeye Peas and cornbread to your grocery list to bring in 2025. Best of Luck, Always in my heart, Laramie Dee of OKC.

It's Midnight and it's the end of an era for Prairie Surf Studios at the old Cox Center.

Let the bulldozing begin.

It's Midnight and it's the end of an era for Prairie Surf Studios at the old Cox Center.

it was midnight for…..your mom.

it was midnight for…..your mom.
lol it was

https://www.nba.com/sixers/news/harris-blitzer-sports-and-entertainment-and-comcast-spectacor-announce-joint-venture-new-arena?fbclid=IwY2xjawHyPD1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdjqoJ_ q6jsz_PmkGUfNILi2NIFi1fOacdL8ghOas6dnl6HjD_XBysO-DA_aem_Ucit9beuX-rVQmsnyicT8Q

I know, Philly versus OKC, but still. A private arena for private owners of the team. Just flies in the face of the 5% our blessed and great owners put up.

I know, not everything is equal, but still makes the 5% seem like a slap in the face.

https://www.nba.com/sixers/news/harris-blitzer-sports-and-entertainment-and-comcast-spectacor-announce-joint-venture-new-arena?fbclid=IwY2xjawHyPD1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdjqoJ_ q6jsz_PmkGUfNILi2NIFi1fOacdL8ghOas6dnl6HjD_XBysO-DA_aem_Ucit9beuX-rVQmsnyicT8Q

I know, Philly versus OKC, but still. A private arena for private owners of the team. Just flies in the face of the 5% our blessed and great owners put up.

I know, not everything is equal, but still makes the 5% seem like a slap in the face.

Mr. Apple meet Mr. Orange.

https://www.nba.com/sixers/news/harris-blitzer-sports-and-entertainment-and-comcast-spectacor-announce-joint-venture-new-arena?fbclid=IwY2xjawHyPD1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdjqoJ_ q6jsz_PmkGUfNILi2NIFi1fOacdL8ghOas6dnl6HjD_XBysO-DA_aem_Ucit9beuX-rVQmsnyicT8Q

I know, Philly versus OKC, but still. A private arena for private owners of the team. Just flies in the face of the 5% our blessed and great owners put up.

I know, not everything is equal, but still makes the 5% seem like a slap in the face.

lol apples to oranges .. fully

lol apples to oranges .. fully

Not fully. The team is worth north of $3 billion, and this only adds to the net worth of the owners. It also isn't like the 76ers and Flyers are the only users. They get an exorbitant number of concerts and events more than OKC. Bigger city, sure. But this is just the latest in a list, both before and after, of arena announcements that make the 5% almost an insult.

https://www.nba.com/sixers/news/harris-blitzer-sports-and-entertainment-and-comcast-spectacor-announce-joint-venture-new-arena?fbclid=IwY2xjawHyPD1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdjqoJ_ q6jsz_PmkGUfNILi2NIFi1fOacdL8ghOas6dnl6HjD_XBysO-DA_aem_Ucit9beuX-rVQmsnyicT8Q

I know, Philly versus OKC, but still. A private arena for private owners of the team. Just flies in the face of the 5% our blessed and great owners put up.

I know, not everything is equal, but still makes the 5% seem like a slap in the face.

Yeah, the OKC taxpayer base was uniquely hornswoggled in this deal

I plan to keep an account of all the public money that goes into this, because like the Omni deal, we were given one number then they never fully accounted for the tens of millions in interest that came from taxpayer money or the fact they had to sell a parking garage that was a cash cow into order to finance the garage next door as part of their agreement with Omni.

There is already the cost of the land to be figured in and it will be interesting to see how they charge out demolition, utilities, street improvements, and other things that will be part of this project. Such items are often slid into other budgets and never included in the project budget.

Yeah, the OKC taxpayer base was uniquely hornswoggled in this deal

I disagree. I think we knew that we were getting hosed, but the risk of a city like Louisville (or more likely Seattle) coming and taking the Thunder was very real, and we were willing to bite the bullet to prevent tt from happening. It was a bad deal, and most who voted yes knew it. But the optics of losing a team to the very city you stole it from would have been crippling to OKC were also known by the voters, who also enjoy having a very, VERY good team in our city.

I disagree. I think we knew that we were getting hosed, but the risk of a city like Louisville (or more likely Seattle) coming and taking the Thunder was very real, and we were willing to bite the bullet to prevent tt from happening. It was a bad deal, and most who voted yes knew it. But the optics of losing a team to the very city you stole it from would have been crippling to OKC were also known by the voters, who also enjoy having a very, VERY good team in our city.


Very well spoken, bison34.

lol apples to oranges .. fully

Not fully. The team is worth north of $3 billion, and this only adds to the net worth of the owners. It also isn't like the 76ers and Flyers are the only users. They get an exorbitant number of concerts and events more than OKC...
These are exactly the things that DO make it an apples and oranges comparison. It's simple economics. Philadelphia's metro population is more than six million people. It's four times the size of metro OKC; in fact it's nearly twice the population of the entire state of Oklahoma.

A building with a second, rent-paying major league tenant and a much larger populace - one that can support far more major concerts and arena-level events - is going to be a profitable exercise for the operator, while a building in a small market is probably always going to require public subsidy. It may *feel* wrong - especially if you limit your views on this matter to surface level thinking - but if this city wants to eat an the grown-up table we're unfortunately going to have to continue to pay dues to qualify. Hopefully one day we'll be grown up enough as a major population center that the world is beating down our door to come here, but today is not that day.

My point is that there is a pretty consistent thread running through most (if not all) of the arenas built by team owners. That thread being that they are in cities where the owners can make more money by owning the building than they do by renting. The number of major league team owners who paid for their building simply out of community spirit and altruism is probably roughly zero. Failure to acknowledge this is dishonest debate.

As far as the Thunder is concerned, I continue to be of the opinion that simply agreeing to stay in Oklahoma City long term, when they could easily make more money in another market or EVEN MORE EASILY sell the team to an out-of-market third party for a huge markup is altruistic enough.

Please help with what is actually going on. I read yesterday on ESPN that the Sixers had backed out of an agreement they had with the City of Philadelphia to build an arena in the Chinatown area. An agreement they had leaned heavily on the City Council to agree to before the end of 2024, and used a possible move to New Jersey as additional leverage. Today they announce a new agreement with (this is all one big company) NBC Universal/Comcast Spectacor, who owns the current arena they play in "Wells Fargo Center", as well as the NHL's Philadelphia Flyers, to build a new facility. NBC Universal/Comcast also used to own the Sixers and are now going to repurchase an equity position in the team. The feel good is "privately financed", but the reality is usually some combination of tax abatement, tax refund, land donation, road/water/sewer/electrical improvement, and other incentives. Do you really believe the Sixers owners are more civically minded operators than the Thunder owners? And Sixers primary owner is Josh Harrs, who also fronts the NFL Washington Commanders and the NHL New Jersey Devils among other sporting endeavors.

My point is that there is a pretty consistent thread running through most (if not all) of the arenas built by team owners. That thread being that they are in cities where the owners can make more money by owning the building than they do by renting. The number of major league team owners who paid for their building simply out of community spirit and altruism is probably roughly zero. Failure to acknowledge this is dishonest debate.

As far as the Thunder is concerned, I continue to be of the opinion that simply agreeing to stay in Oklahoma City long term, when they could easily make more money in another market or EVEN MORE EASILY sell the team to an out-of-market third party for a huge markup is altruistic enough.

Yes, thank goodness for these altruistic billionaires who are getting a new arena for almost free

Yes, thank goodness for these altruistic billionaires who are getting a new arena for almost free
A fundamentally untrue statement. Clearly the truth doesn’t matter to you.

Oh good, PoliSciGuy is starting this argument again

Please help with what is actually going on. I read yesterday on ESPN that the Sixers had backed out of an agreement they had with the City of Philadelphia to build an arena in the Chinatown area. An agreement they had leaned heavily on the City Council to agree to before the end of 2024, and used a possible move to New Jersey as additional leverage. Today they announce a new agreement with (this is all one big company) NBC Universal/Comcast Spectacor, who owns the current arena they play in "Wells Fargo Center", as well as the NHL's Philadelphia Flyers, to build a new facility. NBC Universal/Comcast also used to own the Sixers and are now going to repurchase an equity position in the team. The feel good is "privately financed", but the reality is usually some combination of tax abatement, tax refund, land donation, road/water/sewer/electrical improvement, and other incentives. Do you really believe the Sixers owners are more civically minded operators than the Thunder owners? And Sixers primary owner is Josh Harrs, who also fronts the NFL Washington Commanders and the NHL New Jersey Devils among other sporting endeavors.

the current team owners got a great deal and "free" ownership in the new venture ..

Yes, thank goodness for these altruistic billionaires who are getting a new arena for almost free

Just curious what business you are in and what value your presence brings to the city.

^^^^I'm guessing the Sixers get an ownership stake in the arena in exchange for equity in the team. No cash expended by either side. The Sixers dilute the percentage of partners ownership, but the cash value of the franchise has increased by billions under current ownership, so it is still a strong net gain. Comcast spends what they already committed to in order to build the complex, gets a lock for 50 dates a year, and ownership in their RSN/streaming customer to boot.

Yeah, the OKC taxpayer base was uniquely hornswoggled in this deal

A good choice at that, you either pass it, or the Thunder end up in Las Vegas.

Wouldn't that be depressing. ?

Just curious what business you are in and what value your presence brings to the city.

Some people who live here just get off on being negative about anything to do with the city. Life is too short to be a miserable person.

The feel good is "privately financed", but the reality is usually some combination of tax abatement, tax refund, land donation, road/water/sewer/electrical improvement, and other incentives.

Yes. Nothing of this scale is 100% privately funded. There is always at least some publicly funded infrastructure or tax relief. There often is also a new BID created that the owners have a large stake in and benefit from city investment and/or tax abatement. And this often happens without any kind of vote. This is where the real "hoodwinking" happens. You can usually read a dozen articles about the privately financed arenas and stadiums before getting to one that even mentions the public side of things. That side of these deals is often times much more complex and sometimes even hard for anyone in the public to have access to the details. We will know how much the city spends on the arena site itself, but there will most likely be a lot of other stuff the city spends money on to facilitate development, access to, and operation of the new arena.

But just like anything the city government spends money on, it's much easier to quantify the cost than it is quantify the return, mainly because that is usually by way of sales tax where direct attribution is always going to be difficult.

So speaking of new arena. Have they started any of the prep work at the old cox center?

So speaking of new arena. Have they started any of the prep work at the old cox center?

Here is what I posted after a conference call with David Todd, the project manager:


Already working with utility companies, asbestos survey; everything that can be done before PS vacates Dec. 31st.
Interior work for a couple of months starting Jan. 1st - remove asbestos and other issues.
Demolition estimated to start in March will take 6-9 months to completely remove the building.
Hope to start construction immediately after demo.

This has all happened so quickly. Finished demolition and start of construction by this time next year would be very impressive.

Since it didn't happen on New years eve like it should of maybe we can get an Explosion after the last regular season game this year. We should of blown it up for New Years Eve. How awesome would of that have been. :)

A good choice at that, you either pass it, or the Thunder end up in Las Vegas.

Wouldn't that be depressing. ?

The League was never going to approve the relocation of an existing team to a premium market earmarked for expansion. People will pay top dollar for an expansion team in Vegas or Seattle. But a market like Louisville? Ehh, not so much.

Prairie Surf hasn't taken down or updated their website. It's not a good look on them. You would think they shift back to actively promoting Oklahoma's film industry and just be ready for when a new opportunity for a new location comes along.

The League was never going to approve the relocation of an existing team to a premium market earmarked for expansion. People will pay top dollar for an expansion team in Vegas or Seattle. But a market like Louisville? Ehh, not so much.

I love Las Vegas and have studied it closely for over 20 years. I don't think the NBA is expanding there with this round of two. The population and business base isn't big enough for NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA teams. It is sexy and fun, but the Summer League, NBA Draft, All-Star game and NBA Cup are the best use of the market IMO.

Louisville is my guess where the league is expanding to after Seattle. Big enough city without any "Big 4" leagues in a basketball loving area. Lexington and Cincinatti are 80 and 100 miles away, respectively.

I just hope there are no delays. It will be a tight window to not breach the agreement with the Thunder for opening. 3.5 years from now, if the arena isn't opened, the city breaches a contract with the Thunder (not sure how valid said contract is, but they have always used summer of 2028 as a benchmark to be ready for the Thunder (even though they wouldn't play in it til October, at the earliest).

At least this is how I remember it. I may be misremembering something, though.

I love Las Vegas and have studied it closely for over 20 years. I don't think the NBA is expanding there with this round of two. The population and business base isn't big enough for NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA teams. It is sexy and fun, but the Summer League, NBA Draft, All-Star game and NBA Cup are the best use of the market IMO.

Louisville is my guess where the league is expanding to after Seattle. Big enough city without any "Big 4" leagues in a basketball loving area. Lexington and Cincinatti are 80 and 100 miles away, respectively.

Everything I've read treats Vegas as the presumptive expansion location. Lebron James has openly talked about wanting to have ownership in a Vegas NBA team.

I don't think the NBA is concerned about population/business base, as many attendees for the Vegas NBA games would be tourists who are make a trip out to Vegas w hen their home team is in town to play - as we've seen with NFL. It's not a traditional market but it has 2.3 mil in the metro and a tourism element that is unprecedented.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-expansion-hasnt-happened-for-20-years-so-what-does-the-future-hold-as-league-looks-to-grow-to-32-teams/

I love Las Vegas and have studied it closely for over 20 years. I don't think the NBA is expanding there with this round of two. The population and business base isn't big enough for NHL, NFL, MLB and NBA teams. It is sexy and fun, but the Summer League, NBA Draft, All-Star game and NBA Cup are the best use of the market IMO.

Louisville is my guess where the league is expanding to after Seattle. Big enough city without any "Big 4" leagues in a basketball loving area. Lexington and Cincinatti are 80 and 100 miles away, respectively.

Vegas and Seattle are MORTAL locks for NBA expansion .. it has pretty much already been decided ..

I know the talk. I know Las Vegas is sexy and shiny. I don't think it really adds up. We are talking over 160 tourism games a year, when you figure 40 NHL, 8.5 NFL, 81 MLB and 41 NBA regular season home dates. Even for a city that gets 40 million visitors a year. there is incredible competition for the spend.

Louisville would be a great NBA city. Do they have the deep pockets and corporate base to bring one to town? Humana, GE Appliance, UPS, Brown- Forman, Yum Brands (KFC, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut) and Papa John’s are HQ’d there.

I know the talk. I know Las Vegas is sexy and shiny. I don't think it really adds up. We are talking over 160 tourism games a year, when you figure 40 NHL, 8.5 NFL, 81 MLB and 41 NBA regular season home dates. Even for a city that gets 40 million visitors a year. there is incredible competition for the spend.

it is far more then "talk"

and vegas has THOUSANDS of tourism events a year .. not just those ..

I know the talk. I know Las Vegas is sexy and shiny. I don't think it really adds up. We are talking over 160 tourism games a year, when you figure 40 NHL, 8.5 NFL, 81 MLB and 41 NBA regular season home dates. Even for a city that gets 40 million visitors a year. there is incredible competition for the spend.

I'm not sure there can ever be too much "stuff" in Vegas. It just means people will go more often and even more people will start going. There is something for everyone in Vegas... and even more "stuff" in Vegas off the strip.