Best Trips 2015 -- National Geographic Traveler (http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/best-trips-2015/)

heard them talking about this on NPR

I love it. Talk sh!t on a city that better than yours. OK. OKC will never become half of what is Dallas is, which is a world class, cosmopolitan city that is known world wide. When I talk about me living in Dallas, people say what a nice place. When I say I live in OKC, people say wow. Not in a good way. Houston is sprawled mess and Dallas is a cookie cutter, snobby city. Good work.

Aren't you around 18 and either in or just out of High School? How many people outside the state have been asking you where you are from?

Aren't you around 18 and either in or just out of High School? How many people outside the state have been asking you where you are from?Yes, I'm 18 and just out of high school. You got me. You're a Snowman, so what do you know? You're just going to melt in the summer. ;)

All kidding aside, I'm not defending myself on that. I've stated multiple times how I know what I know, my age, and how I get to deal with people that ask me where I'm from and where I lived, and if you missed that, then that seems like a personal problem.

People that haven't been to OKC have a view that it is not great, but I have business associates tell me how much they enjoyed OKC and was impressed with it after visiting.

Going to London once years ago, I told the customs person that I was coming from Dallas. Dallas, Texas. The customs guy said "Yes, I am aware of where Dallas is located. I've seen the show with the cowboys and oil wells." I don't think Dallas appeared too cosmopolitan to that Londoner.

People that haven't been to OKC have a view that it is not great, but I have business associates tell me how much they enjoyed OKC and was impressed with it after visiting.

Going to London once years ago, I told the customs person that I was coming from Dallas. Dallas, Texas. The customs guy said "Yes, I am aware of where Dallas is located. I've seen the show with the cowboys and oil wells." I don't think Dallas appeared too cosmopolitan to that Londoner.Hmmmm, I just spoke to someone today from Tokyo who was in Dallas for four weeks and is now coming here for school. He ended up renting a car from me. Asked him what he though of Dallas and he said it was an amazing city. Had people all over the world from London, Tehran, Beijing, etc... tell me that.

Posters on this website can get so redundant--myself included I suppose--it gets to a point where it seems like either insanity or just the sake of never missing an opportunity to bash Dallas for something. Behold the future ones that will come and post something positive about Dallas and then say how I'm just being over defensive and whatever. I am sure this has to be the 20th time or so I've posted something like this on here responding to another poster who said the same thing pretty much.

Every city has its differences. There are people I know living in Dallas who hate it there. There are people I know living here in OKC who hate Dallas. I think Tulsa is one of the most depressing cities I've ever seen, yet I know people who moved there from L.A. who would never live anywhere else.

Less this be a pissing match about Dallas and whether or not it is the best city in the world, because I certainly don't think so. This is about me calling posters out who never miss the chance to bash the place. If I had to guess of a number count of the sheer number of posts about bashing a city, right off of memory, I would put it this way

Chicago: 0
NYC: 0
Atlanta: 1-3
Austin: 1-3
San Antonio: 1-5
Houston: 50+
Dallas: 50+
'
For the life of me, I'm not going to dig up every post I've seen where Dallas is trash talked, I know several people on here have supported Dallas. My point is, I've seen Atlanta bashed a couple of times, Austin and San Antonio bashed a couple of times. but cities like Seattle, Portland, Chicago, NYC, etc... never seem to get bashed at all. Funny enough, videos I've seen of them have 6 lane or even wider roads through their suburbs and downtown yet people claim them to be a detriment to development pedestrian activity. Anytime Dallas is trashed talked, expect me to respond to that post.

This is completely ridiculous man.

I for one, do not bash Dallas or Houston. I like both, actually Houston a bit more than Dallas. My story was to point out that it is all about perspective. Almost every place has merits and negatives. I've had wonderful times in all the cites you list, and less than wonderful things happen too. I know people who assume all of TX is a wasteland. I also know Texans that would never consider CA or NY as a desirable place to live. As I get older, I find I am drawn more and more to where family is over any other attraction. Age has changed my perspectives from wanting the big city to wanting comforts of home.

I will say Portland, OR has one of the most stringent growth policies in the nation and only allows specific pockets of land in the city to be developed each year to control sprawl.

Costco needs to be in a big box area, not a nice shopping center.

Putting aside the ocean, mountains, and weather, what San Diego has that OKC doesn't (but could have), is not the stores, per se, but shopping centers that are nicely designed and inviting. We have lots of little shopping centers and districts with central courtyards filled with tables and outdoor furniture, firepits, and typically a fountain that little kids can run through and play in. There is usually a coffee shop nearby and people sitting around having coffee and lots of dogs on leashes. These little urban centers don't have any better stores than in OKC, but they do have atmosphere and are stylish and architecturally interesting.

Boy, if someone in OKC would just build ONE of these, it would be an enormous draw and would spur other like it. I, too, am hoping Chisholm will be the pioneer.

I'll bash Houston all I want. As someone from Dallas, that' s my God given right.

I even had at least 2 people compliment me on how "comfortable" I looked, whatever that means but I'll take it as a compliment.

lol! That's like the "bless your heart" of fashion compliments.

Hmmmm, I just spoke to someone today from Tokyo who was in Dallas for four weeks and is now coming here for school. He ended up renting a car from me. Asked him what he though of Dallas and he said it was an amazing city. Had people all over the world from London, Tehran, Beijing, etc... tell me that.

Posters on this website can get so redundant--myself included I suppose--it gets to a point where it seems like either insanity or just the sake of never missing an opportunity to bash Dallas for something. Behold the future ones that will come and post something positive about Dallas and then say how I'm just being over defensive and whatever. I am sure this has to be the 20th time or so I've posted something like this on here responding to another poster who said the same thing pretty much.

Every city has its differences. There are people I know living in Dallas who hate it there. There are people I know living here in OKC who hate Dallas. I think Tulsa is one of the most depressing cities I've ever seen, yet I know people who moved there from L.A. who would never live anywhere else.

Less this be a pissing match about Dallas and whether or not it is the best city in the world, because I certainly don't think so. This is about me calling posters out who never miss the chance to bash the place. If I had to guess of a number count of the sheer number of posts about bashing a city, right off of memory, I would put it this way

Chicago: 0
NYC: 0
Atlanta: 1-3
Austin: 1-3
San Antonio: 1-5
Houston: 50+
Dallas: 50+
'
For the life of me, I'm not going to dig up every post I've seen where Dallas is trash talked, I know several people on here have supported Dallas. My point is, I've seen Atlanta bashed a couple of times, Austin and San Antonio bashed a couple of times. but cities like Seattle, Portland, Chicago, NYC, etc... never seem to get bashed at all. Funny enough, videos I've seen of them have 6 lane or even wider roads through their suburbs and downtown yet people claim them to be a detriment to development pedestrian activity. Anytime Dallas is trashed talked, expect me to respond to that post.

This is completely ridiculous man.

I hate Dallas, really and nothing you say will change that

To clarify, I don't want us to compare with Dallas. That is a special level of snobbiness and uber materialism that is almost unmatched, and their growth has been very forced and inorganic. I'm just saying it might be nice for us to upgrade from 'socks with sandals'.

But yes, back on topic.

Oh, fashion is fair game for all cities. Dallas has it share of teens walking around with basketball jerseys & trunks wearing cowboy boots without socks. Emily Post would have choked upon seeing that sight.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608025438000451148&pid=15.1&w=111&h=110&p=0 'AS IS!'

It's my home & hometown. Ask me if I care about what other people say or think about OKC; just repeat the infamous line in Gone with the Wind; 'Frankly Miss Scarlett, I don't give a damn!!!'

I wouldn't trade OKC for the glitter & glamor of Dallas, Las Vegas & Atlanta all rolled up into one...

I hate Dallas, really and nothing you say will change that

Why would I try to change your mind if you tell me you hate a city? A city of 7 million isn't going to be missing one person. If you loliveve in DC, that is a beautiful city and I want to visit there.

Man. Are we already done telling anecdotal stories about someone we once met who said something nice or mean about a city that we already have a strong personal opinion about? I like it best when that initial story is then followed up by some kind of generalization about how the rest of earth's people feel about said city. I always miss the good stuff. ;)

Someone post another article. It seems we've hit too many people in the feels zone...

Someone post another article. It seems we've hit too many people in the feels zone...

Here you go.

Top 10 metro cities with the most unpredictable weather are? | KFOR.com (http://kfor.com/2014/12/04/top-10-metro-cities-with-the-most-unpredictable-weather-are/)


A recent study by FiveThirtyEight shows, out of the most populated cities in the country, Oklahoma City has the second most unpredictable weather.

Surprised this wasn't posted yet, as I've seen it all over Facebook. Typical list, except they also included the price of beer, cigarettes, and marijuana (lol) along with music venues, coffee shops, etc.

Vocativ: Best Cities For People Under 35 - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/vocativ-best-cities-for-people-under-35-2014-12?op=1)

OKC came in at #19, just behind D.C. and Boston. Not too shabby.

This article was posted on another message board; this doesn't sound anything like the Sam Presti that talks to the media. Is anyone familiar with the 'Land Run News?"


“We’re very excited by the win; it was a struggle we should have won a lot faster, but I’m just glad it’s done,” said Thunder GM Sam Presti, who acknowledged the importance of victories over any competition for the entertainment dollar...

...“It was a lot of work to get people to forget that there are other teams in town, and it’s not getting any easier. The Dodgers will come out strong this spring, and Energy could get that MLS franchise if we aren’t careful. We have a good gameplan to succeed, but we need everyone to execute,” Presti said.

Thunder Management Celebrates Win Over Barons | Land Run News (http://landrunnews.com/2014/12/thunder-management-celebrates-win-over-barons/)

This is very disturbing; why would Sam Presti say something like this and put it out in the media? That doesn't sound like the professional GM Sam Presti I've come to know...

This is not a real news source and those Presti quotes are fake.

This article was posted on another message board; this doesn't sound anything like the Sam Presti that talks to the media. Is anyone familiar with the 'Land Run News?"

I hope you saw the response to your same post in the sports section. Not to worry. LOL

Thunder Management Celebrates Win Over Barons | Land Run News (http://landrunnews.com/2014/12/thunder-management-celebrates-win-over-barons/)

This is very disturbing; why would Sam Presti say something like this and put it out in the media? That doesn't sound like the professional GM Sam Presti I've come to know...

I hope you saw the response to your same post in the sports section. Not to worry. LOL

This article was posted on another message board; this doesn't sound anything like the Sam Presti that talks to the media. Is anyone familiar with the 'Land Run News?"



Thunder Management Celebrates Win Over Barons | Land Run News (http://landrunnews.com/2014/12/thunder-management-celebrates-win-over-barons/)

This is very disturbing; why would Sam Presti say something like this and put it out in the media? That doesn't sound like the professional GM Sam Presti I've come to know...

Any reference to the OKC Dodgers and Energy being a rival to an NBA franchise makes it sound like they are trying to be a local version of The Onion.

"Land Run News is a satirical news website based in the Oklahoma City metro area. All content is our own intellectual property, but permission is granted to link to our website and share with accreditation.

Land Run News uses fictional people and institutions in our stories, with the exception of cases where public figures and organizations are being satirized. Any use of real names is purely coincidental."

"Land Run News is a satirical news website based in the Oklahoma City metro area. All content is our own intellectual property, but permission is granted to link to our website and share with accreditation.

Land Run News uses fictional people and institutions in our stories, with the exception of cases where public figures and organizations are being satirized. Any use of real names is purely coincidental."

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608018054976636925&pid=15.1&P=0
LMAO! A silhouette news on toilet paper? Land Run Bull-in-the-woods...

Article a few weeks ago from the Arizona Republic on how Phoenix can diversify its economy. References OKC as an example:

Phoenix area, falling behind its peers, looks for new types of jobs (http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2014/11/30/phoenix-economic-recovery/19691585/)

On a related note, OKC now has a higher per capita personal income than Phoenix, Austin, and Salt Lake City (with the caveat that per capita income is not always the best measurement of actual money in pockets)

Article a few weeks ago from the Arizona Republic on how Phoenix can diversify its economy. References OKC as an example:

Phoenix area, falling behind its peers, looks for new types of jobs (http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2014/11/30/phoenix-economic-recovery/19691585/)

On a related note, OKC now has a higher per capita personal income than Phoenix, Austin, and Salt Lake City (with the caveat that per capita income is not always the best measurement of actual money in pockets)

Phoenix was a major boomtown in the 80s and 90s but has lost a lot of its steam. Since most of its growth was prior to America's renewed love affair with downtown areas, most of it occurred in the suburbs. It's downtown area is alright but nothing special and it is well below what you would expect in a city that size. Providing the currently announced projects in downtown OKC come to fruition within the next five years, I would be confident in saying that in 2020 OKC may have a more attractive downtown than Phoenix.

Phoenix is a perfect example of the fact that no boomtown remains that way forever.

Phoenix was a major boomtown in the 80s and 90s but has lost a lot of its steam. Since most of its growth was prior to America's renewed love affair with downtown areas, most of it occurred in the suburbs. It's downtown area is alright but nothing special and it is well below what you would expect in a city that size. Providing the currently announced projects in downtown OKC come to fruition within the next five years, I would be confident in saying that in 2020 OKC may have a more attractive downtown than Phoenix.

Phoenix is a perfect example of the fact that no boomtown remains that way forever.

It looks like they also have the issue of running out of easily develop-able land in the city limits, which is kind of worrying for a city built on a growth model.

It looks like they also have the issue of running out of easily develop-able land in the city limits, which is kind of worrying for a city built on a growth model.

They really need to start looking at density. They have lots of surface parking surrounding their downtown just waiting to be developed.

They really need to start looking at density. They have lots of surface parking surrounding their downtown just waiting to be developed.

With it's reputation as a retirement hotspot it is a surprising they have not been doing more of that in recent years

Not sure this is really the thread for it, but apparently OKC has 3 of the top 32 diviest dive bars in the US, more than any other city as per my rough glance. Woo! :P

https://impulcity.com/articles/the-32-diviest-dive-bars-in-america/2

Not sure this is really the thread for it, but apparently OKC has 3 of the top 32 diviest dive bars in the US, more than any other city as per my rough glance. Woo! :P

https://impulcity.com/articles/the-32-diviest-dive-bars-in-america/2

I can agree with this. I think when it comes to nightlife, dive bars are one of OKC's specialties. When I think of the diviest though, I think of Sipango on Western or Ruthie's Last Call out on I-40 and MacAruthur.

i think downtown OKC already looks better than downtown Phoenix and certainly OKC is taller (and always has been). I went there many times for business a decade ago and was shocked at the lack of development in the core (and pics show there hasn't been much since).

It is nice they used OKC along with the other mid-sized cities as a peer for comparison as there are things we can learn from them (and apparently, they can learn from us).

I can agree with this. I think when it comes to nightlife, dive bars are one of OKC's specialties. When I think of the diviest though, I think of Sipango on Western or Ruthie's Last Call out on I-40 and MacAruthur.

Yeah, The Lost Ogle called them out on their classification of the 3 "dive" bars in OKC,

Five things you may have missed over Christmas | The Lost Ogle (http://www.thelostogle.com/2014/12/29/five-things-you-may-have-missed-over-christmas/) (go to #3 on the list)

"I guess it’s neat some writer for Impulcity probably went to school in Oklahoma City and suggested three bars that are all within a drunk Snuggie Pub Crawl of each other to the list, but the only problem is that Edna’s, HiLo and The Drunken Fry are not true dive bars. They’re just trendy, popular normal bars that want to be known as dive bars. It’s like they’re fake vintage shirts you get at Urban Outfitters. Seriously, The Drunken Fry is owned by the Deep Fork Group. Nothing divey about that. If you want to go to a real dive bar, check out the Store Club or Booger Reds or any other bar none of your “cool” friends want to go to because it smells like smoke, urine and sadness."

i think downtown OKC already looks better than downtown Phoenix and certainly OKC is taller (and always has been). I went there many times for business a decade ago and was shocked at the lack of development in the core (and pics show there hasn't been much since).

Downtown Phoenix has a few things OKC currently lacks but will have within five years, most notably a streetcar and a real convention center/hotel. Once those elements are in place that the Clayco towers and Hines tower are completed, I would stack OKC's downtown up against Phoenix favorably. Phoenix should be MUCH farther ahead though considering it's metro is 4 times the size of OKC.

Dive bars, WOW!

I remember when deuce and a quarter streets ( 2nd & 4th streets, OKC) were full of these; maybe not on the level of Ernest Hemingway's 'A Clean well-lighted place.' Oklahoma City had 'trash with class.'

It is nice they used OKC along with the other mid-sized cities as a peer for comparison as there are things we can learn from them (and apparently, they can learn from us).

It's sad really that they're using OKC as a comparison. Denver, I guess would be a peer city to them (DEN #21 metro vs PHO #12) but for them to be comparing OKC (#42) and SLC (#48) that really shows how far behind PHO is from their true peers.

I dont see it as sad, I see it as favorable for OKC. OKC has done a fantastic job revitalizing its downtown so its nice that larger cities are giving OKC props.

Bchris - Phoenix downtown is sad given not only that its metro is nearly 4 times larger but its city alone is more than twice that of OKC. ... You can see, however, that they did look to OKC as a favorable comparison for downtown, and that is good news for OKC.

I dont see it as sad, I see it as favorable for OKC. OKC has done a fantastic job revitalizing its downtown so its nice that larger cities are giving OKC props.

Bchris - Phoenix downtown is sad given not only that its metro is nearly 4 times larger but its city alone is more than twice that of OKC. ... You can see, however, that they did look to OKC as a favorable comparison for downtown, and that is good news for OKC.

What's sad is that Phoenix should be comparing itself to the likes of Seattle, Minneapolis/St Paul, and San Diego. Their metro area is only barely smaller than the Bay Area California MSA to put it in perspective, yet most would agree that San Francisco is a world class city (or at least close to it) and Phoenix isn't. Salt Lake City and OKC shouldn't even be a comparison for Phoenix, much as Amarillo shouldn't be a comparison for OKC.

What's sad is that Phoenix should be comparing itself to the likes of Seattle, Minneapolis/St Paul, and San Diego. Their metro area is only barely smaller than the Bay Area California MSA to put it in perspective, yet most would agree that San Francisco is a world class city (or at least close to it) and Phoenix isn't. Salt Lake City and OKC shouldn't even be a comparison for Phoenix, much as Amarillo shouldn't be a comparison for OKC.

I'm going to call you out. This is just another thinly veiled, needless snide remark about Oklahoma City. Size is not the same thing as class, and larger cities can and do look to much smaller ones for inspiration. I have seen developments in Boise City that I've thought would be amazing in OKC. Any city that is serious about biking, including the likes of LA and Boston, will surely look at Davis and Boulder. Why wouldn't Phoenix see Oklahoma City as a place that is having success developing its core? If the answer is that it is several times larger and therefore should be embarrassed, then that does not show an appreciable level of sophistication and thought.

I'm going to call you out. This is just another thinly veiled, needless snide remark about Oklahoma City. Size is not the same thing as class, and larger cities can and do look to much smaller ones for inspiration. I have seen developments in Boise City that I've thought would be amazing in OKC. Any city that is serious about biking, including the likes of LA and Boston, will surely look at Davis and Boulder. Why wouldn't Phoenix see Oklahoma City as a place that is having success developing its core? If the answer is that it is several times larger and therefore should be embarrassed, then that does not show an appreciable level of sophistication and thought.

Um, his comment was not some snide remark about OKC. His comment was fairly accurate whether you want to believe it or not. You and others read way too much into some posters and take it personal far too often. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so deal with it and quit crying because you don't like his post. This is a forum to express our opinions about things going on in OKC. All these personal attacks that go on here have gotten out of hand. I actually agree with BChris most of the time and think he contributes a lot to this board as well as PPanda.

Um, his comment was not some snide remark about OKC. His comment was fairly accurate whether you want to believe it or not.

That OKC's success in developing its core might have lessons for larger cities is somehow sad is snide, soondoc, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.


I actually agree with BChris most of the time and think he contributes a lot to this board as well as PPanda.

bchris does contribute a lot to OKCTalk, and there are ways to contribute to a discussion without being unnecessarily negative.
And who said anything about PluPan?? Where did that come from?


All these personal attacks that go on here have gotten out of hand.

Re-read what I said. --> "Why wouldn't Phoenix see Oklahoma City as a place that is having success developing its core? If the answer is that it is several times larger and therefore should be embarrassed, then that does not show an appreciable level of sophistication and thought."
Nowhere is that a personal attack on any member of this board. A take down of a bad argument is not the same thing as a personal attack.

Gents, I think we can all agree that it is refreshingly gratifying that Phoenix included OKC as inspiration in core development. I also think we can agree that it is somewhat surprising that a city more than double OKC is looking to OKC for inspiration when typically cities larger than OKC already have nice cores to begin with.

I think Bchris was giving the opinion if he was from Phoenix, that he'd be embarrassed of Phoenix that they looked to OKC for core inspiration. Bio, I didn't see it as a slight against OKC but instead a little slight against Phoenix, which naturally should be leagues ahead of OKC given its population and lack of nearby competition and the city is not better than OKC downtown-wise.

I see both points of view but personally I take the higher road and welcome Phoenix and other larger cities if they look to OKC for inspiration of their cores. OKC could surely look to a few smaller cities for 'just beyond the core' development inspiration and that is a little slight but also constructive at us. :)

Phoenix is a very sprawled out city with very little urban values because it's a hotbed for seniors and retirees who prefer lawns and cars and non-urban living. They move away from that and go to Phoenix to live in suburbia.

Phoenix, despite its size, is a somewhat unique example. It's basically Vegas but without the strip and an actual downtown area.

OKC is number 9 here.

Best Cities for Job Seekers - NerdWallet (http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/cities/economics/best-cities-for-job-seekers/)

OKC was rated the 15th most romantic dining city in the country via OpenTable (though I'm personally pretty shocked to see Atlantic City as number 1, so the usual grain of salt spiel applies...)

OpenTable Reveals Top 25 Most Romantic Cities in America (NASDAQ:OPEN) (http://press.opentable.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=894623&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=ET_Enews)

Nice article in Free Enterprise, a journal published by the US Chamber of Commerce:

http://www.freeenterprise.com/story/looking-for-a-job-head-to-oklahoma-city/

And a follow up:

Behind Oklahoma City?s Booming Economy, Lessons for Up-and-Coming Cities | Free Enterprise (http://www.freeenterprise.com/story/behind-oklahoma-citys-booming-economy-lessons-for-up-and-coming-cities/?utm_source=Twitter%20&utm_medium=Wallpost%20&utm_campaign=Status)

duplicate

I found this quote pretty interesting, "Unlike U.S. metro areas that rely on a single industry to support their overall business sectors, Oklahoma City features a relatively diverse economy that benefits from both public and private investment. "

^
I agree with that. OKC is far more diversified than people give it credit for.

Cuts in the oil and gas industry have now been occurring in earnest for about 3 months now, and yet the most recent UE figure declined for this area (although it ticked up in several rural counties that are more dependent on O&G) and sales tax collections are growing. That's certainly not to suggest that it won't eventually have an effect, but if OKC was going to fall apart, wouldn't it have started by now?

^
I agree with that. OKC is far more diversified than people give it credit for.

Cuts in the oil and gas industry have now been occurring in earnest for about 3 months now, and yet the most recent UE figure declined for this area (although it ticked up in several rural counties that are more dependent on O&G) and sales tax collections are growing. That's certainly not to suggest that it won't eventually have an effect, but if OKC was going to fall apart, wouldn't it have started by now?

I would venture to guess OKC is going to see a pronounced slowdown if oil is still under $50 by the end of 2015. Ideally it needs to increase to $70. However, I don't think it would be a worst-case scenario as long as there isn't a financial crisis that coincides with the oil glut like there was in 1987. This town is more diverse than people give it credit for but oil and gas has been the primary driver of much of the growth and quality of life improvements seen over the past 5 years.

I think a lot of people underestimate the stable, massive base of decent wage jobs Tinker supplies, and to a lesser extent OU. The state government also has a ton of employees.

The positive to high government is the stability base it provides. Those jobs aren't going to vanish because of a bad year, cuts may happen but they aren't severe compared to what a company can go through. Plus remember the government can always just raise revenue if the pain is bad enough*. The downside is wages don't grow as fast and the government doesn't ever grow by more the 5-10%. Having a nice mix of fast growing high paying but quick contracting private sector jobs with stable but slow growing government jobs can diversify an economy quite nicely.

Cities like Phoenix and Vegas are so heavy in private sector that a recession hits them much much harder.
Cities like Albuquerque that are very government based don't get as hurt by a recession, but their economies struggle to grow if the government doesn't up their funding.

**As we are seeing this year in the state government, a lot of people are paying attention to the ridiculous social legislation, but behind the scenes a ton of corporate hand outs/tax breaks are fixing to vanish. I would say this is all planned but that would be giving them too much credit and Frank Underwood isn't around.

Article a few weeks ago from the Arizona Republic on how Phoenix can diversify its economy. References OKC as an example:

Phoenix area, falling behind its peers, looks for new types of jobs (http://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/2014/11/30/phoenix-economic-recovery/19691585/)

On a related note, OKC now has a higher per capita personal income than Phoenix, Austin, and Salt Lake City (with the caveat that per capita income is not always the best measurement of actual money in pockets)

Actually, I've done the math and because of our low housing costs, which lead to low property and insurance rates, we have more disposable income than a large number of cities. Now, we don't have as many people as a lot of cities, so collectively that extra income might not mean as much.

I haven't been to Phoenix in about 5 years but the last time I went I made the mistake of staying downtown because I thought it would be more fun, and it was not. Downtown was absolutely dead after 5.

Actually, I've done the math and because of our low housing costs, which lead to low property and insurance rates, we have more disposable income than a large number of cities. Now, we don't have as many people as a lot of cities, so collectively that extra income might not mean as much.

I haven't been to Phoenix in about 5 years but the last time I went I made the mistake of staying downtown because I thought it would be more fun, and it was not. Downtown was absolutely dead after 5.

OKC's low cost of living really only applies if you are a homeowner from my experience. If you rent, it can actually be more expensive here than cities with supposedly higher cost of living. Car insurance is also several times more expensive here than it is in a lot of states, likely due to the number of uninsured motorists as well as severe weather.

As for Phoenix, it's like OKC's big city cousin in many ways (in terms of the way it developed, not culture). For decades all the emphasis was on suburbia and building out and downtown was neglected. Like OKC, downtown Phoenix has far more than its share of surface parking and empty lots. Like most cities in recent years they have begun building more housing downtown filling in some of the surface parking and they are beginning to see a transformation. They are already ahead of OKC in a number of ways in that they have a streetcar, convention center, more museums, etc. That should be expected though for a metro that is triple the size.

OKC's low cost of living really only applies if you are a homeowner from my experience. If you rent, it can actually be more expensive here than cities with supposedly higher cost of living. Car insurance is also several times more expensive here than it is in a lot of states, likely due to the number of uninsured motorists as well as severe weather.

As for Phoenix, it's like OKC's big city cousin in many ways (in terms of the way it developed, not culture). For decades all the emphasis was on suburbia and building out and downtown was neglected. Like OKC, downtown Phoenix has far more than its share of surface parking and empty lots. Like most cities in recent years they have begun building more housing downtown filling in some of the surface parking and they are beginning to see a transformation. They are already ahead of OKC in a number of ways in that they have a streetcar, convention center, more museums, etc. That should be expected though for a metro that is triple the size.

My son lives in Chandler but briefly lived in a high rise luxury condo just North of downtown. When we visited we drove all over the fringe areas of downtown and it is some of the most run down dangerous sketchy place I've ever been in. The area is real close to the re-known Matt's Big Breakfast. My son said people don't go down there after dark. Absolutely no comparison to OKC.

My son lives in Chandler but briefly lived in a high rise luxury condo just North of downtown. When we visited we drove all over the fringe areas of downtown and it is some of the most run down dangerous sketchy place I've ever been in. The area is real close to the re-known Matt's Big Breakfast. My son said people don't go down there after dark. Absolutely no comparison to OKC.

I am familiar with that area and its really not all that different from the current state of Core2Shore or how Midtown was pre-renaissance. Mid-rise residential developments similar to the Edge, LIFT, and Metropolitan are slowly starting to fill in that area. It would say its VERY comparable to OKC.

I am familiar with that area and its really not all that different from the current state of Core2Shore or how Midtown was pre-renaissance. Mid-rise residential developments similar to the Edge, LIFT, and Metropolitan are slowly starting to fill in that area. It would say its VERY comparable to OKC.

You are wrong - I just checked city-data, and if their info is correct, per 100,000 residents, Phoenix is almost double the crime stats as OKC. We're talking murders, rapes, thefts, etc all the way down to arson. My son says his car insurance rates doubled due to the high vehicle theft rate in PHX.

You are wrong - I just checked city-data, and if their info is correct, per 100,000 residents, Phoenix is almost double the crime stats as OKC. We're talking murders, rapes, thefts, etc all the way down to arson. My son says his car insurance rates doubled due to the high vehicle theft rate in PHX.

Well if you are talking only crime stats then yes, Phoenix has a higher crime rate.

In terms of development patterns OKC and Phoenix are very similar. Everything from the street layout to the parking craters and open land surrounding downtown to the suburban sprawl and patchwork development is similar. If OKC was four times its current size it would probably look a lot like Phoenix.

One thing I will say is despite being four times the size, Phoenix's downtown is only 10 years or so ahead of OKC if that.

Have you even been to Phoenix?

I'm not trying to rag on it, but Phoenix's downtown is quite desolate. I was there for the Fiesta Bowl when OU played UConn and also made the mistake of staying downtown. It was a ghost town, more sleepy than anything in OKC, with a lot of rough, shady looking people shuffling about. Although in their defense, the area just north of DT (Encanto I think was the name) is a really nice Paseo-like area. And Old Town Scottsdale and the Biltmore/Camelback area was neat as well. But there is a reason their main paper profiled OKC, using our DT as an example.


OKC's low cost of living really only applies if you are a homeowner from my experience. If you rent, it can actually be more expensive here than cities with supposedly higher cost of living. Car insurance is also several times more expensive here than it is in a lot of states, likely due to the number of uninsured motorists as well as severe weather.


Another head scratcher. You're on fire today LOL.

Why dismiss low housing costs here when housing is by far the largest expense for most? It absolutely makes a difference. Rents in OKC are only really high in the core, and thats a simple supply/demand issue. On a square footage basis, I am paying about 30% more for my apartment in Dallas than in a similar area in OKC (the Memorial Rd area). I'm interested to know what "high cost" cities you believe have cheaper rents. Insurance and utilities are the two things that are higher than average. Food and gas are much cheaper however. Everything else is either a wash or slightly lower than average.

I've been street viewing Pheonix for the last few days and it looks like an awesome city. The city also seems much more active and much more scenic. I did notice, OKCs downtown is ahead by light years.

I've been street viewing Pheonix for the last few days and it looks like an awesome city. The city also seems much more active and much more scenic. I did notice, OKCs downtown is ahead by light years.

Oct thru April its a great place to be! But downtown is nothing to write home about. Much prefer going to Old Scottsdale area or head over to Biltmore area of Phoenix. Great places to grab a beer and sit on the patio. Zuzu at Hotel Valley Ho is worth a visit for a drink or meal. Fun place.

Old downtown Chandler square is a pretty nice place too. It's worth the visit if you're in the area.

Have you even been to Phoenix?

I'm not trying to rag on it, but Phoenix's downtown is quite desolate. I was there for the Fiesta Bowl when OU played UConn and also made the mistake of staying downtown. It was a ghost town, more sleepy than anything in OKC, with a lot of rough, shady looking people shuffling about. Although in their defense, the area just north of DT (Encanto I think was the name) is a really nice Paseo-like area. And Old Town Scottsdale and the Biltmore/Camelback area was neat as well. But there is a reason their main paper profiled OKC, using our DT as an example.

I have family in Phoenix and used to go there annually. Phoenix doesn't really have anything like Bricktown. However, they have a streetcar and convention center already in place. I would say for the most part OKC feels more urban at least right in the core. Phoenix has a lot of suburban style housing right outside of downtown and lacks something like Deep Deuce. In terms of their CBD, it reminds me quite a bit of OKC.

The entire neighborhood north of downtown but south of I-10 really reminds me of Midtown. In fact its nearly identical. That area is a formerly blighted area that is now seeing significant development of low-rise residential buildings but still has plenty of blight and grassy lots.

Phoenix's strength is its suburban areas. I'll have to check out Chandler next time I am there. My family is in Glendale/Peoria so I haven't spent much time on the east side of the valley.


Why dismiss low housing costs here when housing is by far the largest expense for most? It absolutely makes a difference. Rents in OKC are only really high in the core, and thats a simple supply/demand issue. On a square footage basis, I am paying about 30% more for my apartment in Dallas than in a similar area in OKC (the Memorial Rd area). I'm interested to know what "high cost" cities you believe have cheaper rents. Insurance and utilities are the two things that are higher than average. Food and gas are much cheaper however. Everything else is either a wash or slightly lower than average.

I am not dismissing low housing costs. OKC is attracting a lot of young people who want to be homeowners at an early age but may not be able to afford it in other cities. You can get a nice, newer place in Edmond for the same cost as a fixer upper in a marginal neighborhood in Charlotte. All I am saying is to really take advantage of the cost of living here, you really need to be a homeowner. If you rent like I do, you really aren't saving all that much and in fact may be paying more. If I knew I was going to be in OKC for several more years I would buy a house. I would be a fool not to in this market. However, I still may be relocating so I will continue to rent for now.