cave dwelling period whistles?



LOL. They're not designed to play popular major chord melodies or else people would think they're ice cream trucks. They (mostly) blare chords with dissonant intervals that make your fillings rattle because they're large machines with massive weight, essentially fixed-path, moving fast and with not much braking friction that make huge messes of smaller, softer, slower things.

So it seems they aren't effective so no need to blow them anymore

So it seems they aren't effective so no need to blow them anymore

Nah, they may not help those doomed to earn a Darwin award, but they remain useful to the masses

Nah, they may not help those doomed to earn a Darwin award, but they remain useful to the masses

The masses all stop so if the horns don't deter the stupid then let's just do away with it

Indeed why are we forcing trains to make huge amounts of honking noise for the rare stupids who will never stop for any red light/horn blows anyway?
The exception of the broken signals at the crossing will probably be notified to the train engineer and of course in case of any emergency everyone has to honk loud and clear.
We don't force car drivers neither to honk before each and every green light just to warn and protect the rare idiots who don't respect the red lights!

Indeed why are we forcing trains to make huge amounts of honking noise for the rare stupids who will never stop for any red light/horn blows anyway?
Lawsuits.

2011 and we're still on the trains blowing horns thread?

Lawsuits.

Do you seriously mean that a large part of the US population has to suffer day and night the honking noise pollution because a few idiots (not respecting the stopping signs) start lawsuits?
In this case the solution should be as follows:
Introduce new laws to put these guys immediately in jail. Then they can spend their money to pay their own lawyers to get free.

You have to remember that "noise pollution" is a relatively recent phenomenon, in the past you just had to put up with "noise" if you lived in the city, near railroad tracks, a highway or an airport. I live a block away from one of the major north-south lines through Austin and they honk at the nearest crossing (1/4 mile away from my street) every time and it doesn't bother us and we have 70's era, horrible single pane windows. I lived in the duplexes near Danforth and Fretz and heard the train there all the time crossing Danforth.

If you don't like it, move away from the noise, more than likely it was there long before you were.

2011 and we're still on the trains blowing horns thread?

What can I say...Slow news year outside of politics and Laden

I live in Kansas city about one mile from 3 railroad crossings where we hear 120 trains blowing the horn 4 times per crossing, 15 to 20 seconds which means noise pollution for a big part of the day and waking up at night.

I don't like it since that noise was not here when I moved here 10 years ago.
That honking noise was introduced and increased by the bureaucratic FRA just a few years ago.
Trains were here long before me and I respect them since we all need them but not this quantity of horn honking noise!

That's why I will continue to protest and write about our bureaucratic FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) which prefers to introduce noise creating laws and regulations. The FRA prefers to disturb millions of hard working citizens, instead of solving the root of the safety problem:
Please prosecute and punish the trespassers and the few irresponsible people who don't respect the multiple stop signs at our railroad crossings.

Lawsuits yes! But against these law violators Please!

I recently met a retired train engineer. He explained me that he lost almost his total hearing capability by the noisy environment he was working in.

This alone should be a valid reason for the Federal Railroad Administration to review the noise pollution creating rules requiring trains to honk at least 4 times for every railroad crossing!

Also you can imagine the hordes of lawyers starting lawsuits to request financial compensation from the FRA and the railroads, for each and every train engineer who lost (part of) his hearing.

I recently met a retired train engineer. He explained me that he lost almost his total hearing capability by the noisy environment he was working in.

This alone should be a valid reason for the Federal Railroad Administration to review the noise pollution creating rules requiring trains to honk at least 4 times for every railroad crossing!

Also you can imagine the hordes of lawyers starting lawsuits to request financial compensation from the FRA and the railroads, for each and every train engineer who lost (part of) his hearing.

Or better yet, stopping by the nearest Walmart and buying some ear plugs.

not that easy my friend: earplugs are useless in these level of noise and train engineers have to listen to radio messages.....

Well, it is 2010 and people still have ears so it kind of logical that trains still have horns. I mean just sayin...

not that easy my friend: earplugs are useless in these level of noise and train engineers have to listen to radio messages.....

At any specialty safety equipment store, you can by ear muffs that have/include radio transmitting devices, may cost you around 200.00, but better than loss of hearing.

you mean that people who don't work in trains have still ears.
Most retired train engineers have no more hearing capacities.

you mean that people who don't work in trains have still ears.
Most retired train engineers have no more hearing capacities.

? english please

It's 2011 and why don't we have high speed rail, like Europe or Japan or other modern countries?
If you had high speed rail there'd be no horns because the highways would run over or under the tracks.

Is there a Kansas City forum where you can complain about your 3 railroad crossings noise pollution or something? Can you write to the government instead of complaining about it to us. You're not going to get anywhere, otherwise. Of your 18 posts, are any of them outside of this thread? Let's move on Torea. We know what you want but none of us can do anything for you.

Stan,
Also on the non-high speed rails in Europe and Japan, trains are not allowed to use horns and generate unnecessary noise (except in emergency situations).
Only in our good old US of A we still dream of the romantic Western cowboy movies. Trains are forced to honk at least 4 times for every crossing.

This FRA rule not only harms the train engineers but keeps also awake millions of hard working citizens.
I don't know any other country in the world where safety is translated into creating noise pollution and keeping the citizens awake.

@ OKCis OK4you

This train noise problem exists in the whole USA, not only in OKC or KC.
I don't understand why we the people in the US accept these kind of bureaucratic FRA rules in 2011.

Yeah, okay, gotcha. But it's not a problem unless you make it a problem. Why don't you go around your neighborhood and see how many people are up in arms with you about it. Chances are they live with it because the cost of living is much cheaper in that area. If you can afford more, then move! You're trying to fight a battle that is too big for you. That's all I'm saying.

I agree that this battle is too big for one person but if nobody acts, this country will remain unique in the world: labeled as "noise polluted" by its own legislators.

Maybe I should contact organizations of retired railroad engineers and propose them to sue their ex-employers to obtain financial compensation for the loss of hearing.
A large number of lawsuits usually helps to convince administrations and large companies.

This has probably been brought up before but I didn't read the whole thread.... Didn't the tracks exist before the housing, or at least you moving into that house? Trains still blow horns because there are dumb asses that don't look and go around the crossing arms. Can you imagine the liability if the train hit a car and didn't give a warning sound.

@Roadhawg:
Only these dumb asses are liable since they are crossing at least 4 flashing red lights as well as the lowered crossing arms.
The FRA should help with laws to make these train traffic rules violators pay for all the damage in case of an accident. Huge fine and insurance premium increases, up to loss of drivers license should be the penalty for everyone caught going around the crossing arms.
The train honking is not a penalty for these dummies. It is a penalty for all the people living around our railroads.

The tracks indeed existed long time ago (I believe the Indians were still populating most part of the US).
Meanwhile the world changed: 100 times more people are now living in the US , 1,000 times more trains are now supporting our expanding economy. This is not the time to force every train to honk 4 times to protect these guys you call "dumb asses".

Could you imagine a new law forcing every car to honk 3 times before crossing every intersection? This would indeed help to protect the few idiots crossing the traffic red lights!

It's like being over at newsok.com, only with a different color scheme on the graphics.

If I moved into a neighborhood, one close to railroad tracks and crossings, I would expect to hear train horns whenever they went by. It's a little late to complain about the horns after you choose to move there. IMHO

Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

Trains have been blowing their horns for crossings ever since there have been cars and trains. The 4 years ago you mention is when the FRA tried to lessen the amount of blowing. Torea, why don't you move?


Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

Roadhawg, IMHO you are right except for the fact that the FRA imposed this 4 times train honking after a transition period only a few years ago. This quadrupled the train noise for everyone living near a railroad longer than 2 years. So I will continue to protest these unnecessary noise pollution rules invented recently by the FRA.
Just as everyone I have no problem with normal (emergency) honking by trains.

How many times did the trains sound their horns before that?

UnclePete, did you have a bad dream? Anyway your logo shows where you are working so you assume everyone has to move for your increasing train noise!

Since you are an "insider", you should have read the FRA's final rule:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/trainhorn_2005/amended_final_rule_081706.pdf here you can find the following statement:
"Existing restrictions on the
routine sounding of the locomotive horn
may remain in place until June 24, 2010"
This explains why less than a year ago trans started to honk at least 4 times for each railroad crossing. -as required by the FRA rule-

UnclePete, did you have a bad dream? Anyway your logo shows where you are working so you assume everyone has to move for your increasing train noise!

Since you are an "insider", you should have read the FRA's final rule:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/trainhorn_2005/amended_final_rule_081706.pdf here you can find the following statement:
"Existing restrictions on the
routine sounding of the locomotive horn
may remain in place until June 24, 2010"
This explains why less than a year ago trans started to honk at least 4 times for each railroad crossing. -as required by the FRA rule-


It also gives a few exceptions for certain categories of rail operations and highway-rail grade crossings. It appears your area doesn't qualify for those exceptions or exceptions haven't been applied for.

Section 20153(i) of title 49 requires FRA to ‘‘take into account the interest of communities that have in effect restrictions on the sounding of a locomotive horn at highway-rail grade
crossings.’’ FRA has complied with this requirement in several ways. Until December 24, 2005, the final rule allowed communities to establish Pre-Rule Quiet Zones, if the Quiet Zone Risk
Index was at, or below, two times the Nationwide Significant Risk Threshold and there were no relevant collisions within the quiet zone since April 27, 2000. (See § 222.41.) It should also be noted that the final rule allows communities to establish Pre-Rule Quiet Zones, if SSMs have been implemented at every public grade crossing within the quiet zone or if the Quiet Zone Risk Index is at, or below, the Nationwide Significant Risk Threshold.)

@Roadhawg : you are right (again).
The small city where I live cannot afford to spend $6 Million to install quiet zones (yet another splendid invention of the FRA).
It's worth to read the following article about the "quiet zone" experience in a bigger city here in the neighborhood:
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-quiet-zone-not-so-quiet-20110221,0,7084851.story

In short the FRA understood quickly that the new (4 times) honking rules were unacceptable in densely populated areas.
Instead of correcting the useless honking rules, the added even more bureaucratic rules forcing all cities to install expensive "quiet zones"

@Roadhawg : you are right (again).
The small city where I live cannot afford to spend $6 Million to install quiet zones (yet another splendid invention of the FRA).
It's worth to read the following article about the "quiet zone" experience in a bigger city here in the neighborhood:
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-quiet-zone-not-so-quiet-20110221,0,7084851.story

In short the FRA understood quickly that the new (4 times) honking rules were unacceptable in densely populated areas.
Instead of correcting the useless honking rules, the added even more bureaucratic rules forcing all cities to install expensive "quiet zones"


Once again how many times did the trains honk their horns before this change? Did you know the tracks were there before you moved there?

Before the new FRA rules. there was no mandatory honking. Moreover every city could request the railroads to be quiet on their territory.

But my main point is that honking does not improve the safety of any crossing (rail or road). I read somewhere that the honking is needed to avoid lawsuits after accidents. No kidding: give these irresponsible drivers serious penalties and let them pay all expenses after passing a closed railroad crossing. Don't penalize these hard working people in many cities in the US.
On the above fox4kc link you can look at a short clip where a citizen of Olathe complains about the 2800 daily blows (this represents 5 hours full time honking per day).

Is there nobody who dares to question the safety-overreaction attitude of most administrations?

Homeland Security is another good example: they are experts in inventing new rules to make travel by plane a bad experience but forget to help homeland people who were dying in New Orleans after the hurricane.
Recently with the introduction of the new body scanners I remarked that you have to empty now all your pockets (They even take away your wallet full of paper money and credit cards). Who is going to pay for the lost (or stolen) wallets?
Is the next acceptable "security" check a full (including intimate) body search for men, woman and kids?

Before the new FRA rules. there was no mandatory honking. Moreover every city could request the railroads to be quiet on their territory.

But my main point is that honking does not improve the safety of any crossing (rail or road). I read somewhere that the honking is needed to avoid lawsuits after accidents.

I may be mistaking but I was under the impression blowing the horn at intersections wasn't an option before the new rules. Your thinking honking the horn doesn't improve the safety, where did you come up with this? You never did answer my question of how many times they honked the horn before this rule change. You give the impression they didn't and I'll just assume you knew there was a railroad there when you moved there since you didn't answer that question either.

I don't think anyone in the KC area is living further away than 1 mile from a railroad. (which was there forever probably since the Indians still populated these areas)
Forgive me for having lived here happy since 10 years and for not counting the (very few) number of times the trains honked the horn.
But I can assure you that the last 2 years the horns blow louder and more frequently ( up to 110 decibel an 4 times for every crossing, as imposed by the FRA).
And please don't come with manipulated statistics about traffic safety. Drunk driving, not respecting red lights, speeding, even wearing safety belts were all improved by heavy fines, increased insurance premiums, loss of drivers license and even jail sentence. Trains might be bigger and louder but if the red lights, the bells and the lowered crossing arms have no effect on a drunk driver, the honking won't hold him neither.
You didn't answer my question neither if you would accept a new rule to make every car honk 3 times before crossing any green traffic light!

That's because you're question is asinine and irrelevant. Not sure where drunk driving came into the discussion and also not sure what if any statistics I've posted but not sure why you would think they are manipulated in any way. I didn't realize we were talking about KC but maybe, just maybe, they got the exemptions mentioned earlier. Evidently your community hasn't installed the safety upgrades to get the exemptions so you're pretty much SOL unless you move. The only way to have a world without whistles is to have a world without idiots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Lifesaver
http://oli.org/

Only idiots don't answer questions (labeling them as irrelevant) and only idiots believe the (uncontrolled) statistics created by any other idiot on Wikipedia.
It's so easy to create cruel car accident pictures as well. The best way to reduce the number of car and train accidents to zero is to make them respect a 3MPH speed at every crossing, permanently honking plus having someone walk in front of the train and the car waving a big red flag. Even the drunk driving idiots would not be able to create accidents anymore!
Finally only idiots believe they are always right, they are the center of the world, everyone else has to move and that the world does not change.
(We all have to move because the Indians were here first)

I don't need to move, I don't live near any railroad tracks :kicking:

I don't need to move, I live about 1 mile from tracks/crossings, but I enjoy the sounds of the train. (including the horn)

I don't need to move neither since I live already more than a mile away from your noisy honking machines. Please think a little bit further than your own little house!

Maybe you railroad guys don't realize that you are not only killing your credibility but also your own business:
I found several companies (just in my area) looking to move away from their current railroad connected locations because of the noise made by your blowing horns.
Of course they will have to look also for alternative (truck) transportation methods.
A manager told me they have to stop talking to their customers each time a passing train starts honking. As mentioned in the fox4kc article, this represents 5 hours (or more than 20%) of unproductive time per day and lots of nervous and lost customers:

http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-qu...,7084851.story

Good luck railroad guys! Keep on blowing your business away:)

Torea, you must have super-sensitive hearing or overly exaggerating the situation. When I was hearing during the years ago, the trains was not even such a problem. People and business owners need to stop complaining.

I don't need to move neither since I live already more than a mile away from your noisy honking machines. Please think a little bit further than your own little house!

Maybe you railroad guys don't realize that you are not only killing your credibility but also your own business:
I found several companies (just in my area) looking to move away from their current railroad connected locations because of the noise made by your blowing horns.
Of course they will have to look also for alternative (truck) transportation methods.
A manager told me they have to stop talking to their customers each time a passing train starts honking. As mentioned in the fox4kc article, this represents 5 hours (or more than 20%) of unproductive time per day and lots of nervous and lost customers:

http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-qu...,7084851.story

Good luck railroad guys! Keep on blowing your business away:)

I'm confused... if you live over a mile away and don't need to move then why all the bitching about it? It sounds like those business's you mentioned moved there because of the availability of the railroad. Do you live in KC? You sure make a lot of references to how they do things up there.

Thunder, Roadhawg, you are acting (just as administrations like the FRA) as good old monopolies:

- listen and obey to our orders even if they are useless, annoying and noise polluting.
- Hard working people and businesses have to accept the noise, to stop complaining and even to shut up and stop doing business during 20% of the day.
- Every difficult question is irrelevant. Everyone who dares to think and ask questions is an idiot.

Maybe I should go and talk to the bureau of better business or the Federal Trade Commission for antitrust enforcement in the US.
You railroad guys only think about your personal situation and enjoy that your house is not nearby a railroad.

...
You railroad guys only think about your personal situation and enjoy that your house is not nearby a railroad.

FWIW, I've never worked in the rail business, had a relative successfully sue a rail business once for a not unimpressive sum, and the bulk of my life I have lived anywhere from two miles to 1/3 mile from tracks and crossings, including within a mile of multiple crossings on a line that carries 28+ horn blowing trains a day.

None of that means much of nothing except to point out that I have no skin in the game when I note you do tend to go on about train noise more than a young child goes on about a dropped ice cream cone.

Bu then, I am weird I suppose in that I don't mind the train horns.

Now that's a nice statement, kevinpate:)
I live nearby the railroad described in the following fox4kc article.
http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-quiet-zone-not-so-quiet-20110221,0,7084851.story

If you pay one ice cream cone per horn blowing, the 120 daily trains here would allow you to make 1440 kids happy!

"If there was a soft rain falling...and a train whistle off in the distance...this would have the makins' of a great country song..."

--Big Daddy to Blanche--after a disagreement late one night as he left her home on Richmond Avenue after arguing about his new country singing career...from The Golden Girls

You are a real good old romantic, jmarkross.
But what do you want to tell the business people each time train honking forces them to ask their customers on the phone to stop talking? Start singing your great romantic country song?

Torea, tell them to get a better building. Geez.

You are a real good old romantic, jmarkross.
But what do you want to tell the business people each time train honking forces them to ask their customers on the phone to stop talking? Start singing your great romantic country song?

I have a friend whose place is near the tracks...for decades we have been saying--without loss of mind or limb--"just a sec--train coming by". Of course, it is pretty obvious once the horn goes off at ear-splitting level. I suppose we could spend trillions re-routing all the trains outside of any inhabited area. Or--we could just expect people to be a little less *sensitive* to things around them. People are so whiny. Don't like train horns--don't move near the tracks--or buy/set-up a business there. Free country.

jmarkrross, we don't need trillions to re-rout trains. Trains are more than welcome to continue to support our economy just the way they do now.
But we don't need new rules to create additional horn blowing noise. We don't need to ask every city to spend millions in "quiet zones".

Our railroad and FRA people seem to be satisfied as long as their house is not near a railroad. Maybe they should be paid to move their butt and go and see how other countries (Europe or Japan) have organized their railroad traffic in highly populated areas.

I don't need to move neither since I live already more than a mile away from your noisy honking machines. Please think a little bit further than your own little house!

Maybe you railroad guys don't realize that you are not only killing your credibility but also your own business:
I found several companies (just in my area) looking to move away from their current railroad connected locations because of the noise made by your blowing horns.
Of course they will have to look also for alternative (truck) transportation methods.
A manager told me they have to stop talking to their customers each time a passing train starts honking. As mentioned in the fox4kc article, this represents 5 hours (or more than 20%) of unproductive time per day and lots of nervous and lost customers: http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-olathe-qu...,7084851.story

Good luck railroad guys! Keep on blowing your business away:)

IMO, all I'm hearing now is a bunch of BS

I don't need to move, I live about 1 mile from tracks/crossings, but I enjoy the sounds of the train. (including the horn)

Freak. :LolLolLol

Thunder, you designed a nice website man ...
But a link to a map is missing!
I guess your next update will have a nice aerial view to show this shopping center from a flying goose point of view

Here is another interesting website about the archaic FRA, how they killed the high speed trains in the US and now add honking noise to disturb the life of many citizens:

http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html

The end reply is more than worth reading:

Thanks for this nice summary of FRA nonsense rules, which were created with the help of the automotive and oil , highway lobby to make passenger rail almost impossible.

Modern rail systems are inherent safe and collisions are a rare instance, as rare as planes falling from the sky at cruising altitude.
Regarding the scilly horn requirements: There should be better a horn rule for cars, because they can hit anything anytime from pedestrians to other cars or structures. Cars have due to their uncontrolled nature, no safety at all. There is no system keeping them miles apart like trains, no system to prevent them from leaving their lane ( like rails ) and many things more.

I can only conclude that one of the federal spending cuts currently examined in Washington should definitely include the complete cut of all FRA funding. Current FRA staff should be reassigned to other and usefull projects.

I'm thinking torea must be related to Dana somehow.

Dana? What Dana? Who is this?
I'm just one of these people who dare to asks questions about every nonsense rule made by the FRA. They don't promote safety but rater their own existence.
By this attitude the FRA killed the high speed trains and constantly makes all trains honk allover the US (probably to loudly remind everyone that the FRA still exist as a useless administration)
Please read this article, Roadhawg:
http://www.ebbc.org/rail/fra.html

Interesting article but the FRA didn't kill high speed rail nor did the article have anything to do with train horns. It sounds like your issue with FRA goes beyond noise levels, which you admitted to living more than a mile away from.

Dane is a person on here who rants on about DFS and claims to have evidence people are crooked but when asked specific questions she avoids answering them and goes off in a different direction. I say that because you've been asked specific questions and you dance around and don't answer them. Personally I don't care anymore because after admitting you live over a mile away from the train tracks and the horns aren't a bother you've lost all credibility with me. I would suggest pointing your attention towards those who could make changes rather than just posting your rants here. Have a good one.