It wasn't borderline, whatsover. Go back and read the posts, again. Closely. I made it clear that I felt that a dysfunctional minority was being held up as what black people are like to the unfairness of most black people. I was suprised to see you go off the way you did because you usually at least think before you type. I would like to know what I wrote, in context, that could possibly lead you to write what you did:


If what I said was even just "borderline," how could you accuse me of something so hateful? I really would like to know what it was I wrote that would cause you to claim I was saying I thought your black neighbors were going to rob you? Did you miss the part that I lived in an integrated neighborhood and I had no concerns that my black neighbors would be violent? Did you miss the part about how I went to black folks' homes and wasn't worried about it? All that was said before I "clarified" for you. It is ridiculous that someone could write what I wrote about hard working black people, good black people, black people who are unjustly lumped in with ghetto thugs and have someone like you turn around and call me a racist. That is exactly what you did. There is absolutely no way you could have called me a racist if you actually read what I wrote.

What does someone have to do or say to "prove" to you that they aren't racist? It is people like you who have made the word meaningless. I could understand if I said black people were stupid or that they were criminals because of their race or things of that nature. What has it come to that someone is called a racist when they write what I wrote?

Black people are doing the best they can to try to deal with bigotry. Slap happy white boys are out there drumming up resentment by "defending them" so they can feel morally superior. How dare you call me a racist? How dare you minimize real bigotry that way? As I already said, I have had many conversations with middle class black families. How dare you accuse me a racist when I am merely sharing what those good people tell me is going on? How does a white boy like you become so arrogant that they dare to point fingers like that? Again, what did I write that would cause you to call me a racist who believes your black neighbors are going to rob you?


I took a lot of what you wrote on this thread as being racists. It's obvious you have a race chip on your shoulder when it comes to 'black folk'. I noticed in the past you're quick to play the 'race card'.

I don't think it evil though. You're merely a product of your generation and the times you were born into. Of course you can't see it and you will deny it but it is the truth.

I am politically incorrect - that I will admit to. But nothing I said was racist and I certainly didn't deserve to be accused of what MWCbomber said about suggesting that his black neighbors would do him harm.

I do not have a chip on my shoulder against black people, whatsoever. Where I am coming from is frustration with people who insist on treating perfectly capable and proud people like victims. I won't do it. I have too much respect for them. To me, THAT is bigotry. I am well aware that they are often the target of bias and that infuriates me. It is grossly unfair. I worked in the trenches with many black social workers and probation officers, many who came up from the ghetto, and they have my utmost respect. When white people get their panties in a wad and assume to speak for black people, and judge me when I refuse to treat these gutsy people as children, I have to wonder where they get the nerve.

And what else infuriates me is black on black crime that is ignored as a "black" problem - or ignored, period, since it doesn't affect white people. Moreover, although it is it is coming from a different direction and meant with good intentions, the end result is exactly the same if it is ignored because it makes some black people look bad. That is missing the forest for the trees.

In the interest of political correctness, people's lives are being ruined. These are people being terrorized by thugs. These are black people being terrorized by thugs. If anyone is offended that I don't have more sympathy for "poor" ghetto folk (and by that, I mean the criminals), too bad, so sad. I reserve my sympathy for their victims who are overwhelmingly black. To pretend those people aren't being victimized since their predators are the wrong color is sickening. I don't care if the thugs are black, white or peach colored. What I do care about is people enabling black people to be victimized when the perpetrator is black because to speak up and say that is wrong isn't PC - and gets you labeled intolerant by some, and racist by others (like MWC). I had too many of my guardian ad litem kids and families be victims to this sort of thing to not be horrified at the amount of black on black crime in certain areas. To accuse me of being a racist because I speak up is just so typical. So long as somone is PC, it doesn't matter if the end result is that black people are victimized. In the interest of political correctness, all you guys are ignoring the elephant in the room. Real people get hurt because no one wants to say anything for fear they will be accused of the hateful things MWC accused me of.

Apparently I'm not the only one that sees the race card being played in your posts penny. As I've said, I have read your posts....they are the reason why I commented. If you don't see it, then you're part of the problem.

There's a difference between being polically incorrect and being racist.

I'm not a racist in any way/shape/form, so you can take that comment you made about me a shove it right where the sun don't shine. Hell, I'm the one that said take the race box off the form....how does that make me racist? And since I'm not the only one seeing your comments that way...we must all be wrong and you must be right...yeah.

Next time you go spouting off flaming comments, why don't you keep them in your little brain. We don't have room for small-minded bigots here.

There is a certain mentality that apparently believes black people shouldn't have to do anything to prove themselves and that white people owe it to them to give every black person respect and the benefit of the doubt. And that attitude is not helping. It is also stupid and shortsighted. Pride will only get you so far and most people I know want the world to be a better place for their children. Contrary to what some would have you believe (many white people who don't have to deal with the prejudice, I might add and can afford to be stubborn since it doesn't cost them or their children anything) this is not about some debt owed. It is about understanding each other, building good lives and working together. Sticking out your lip and saying I don't have to tell you anything is for children. The African American community can only benefit if the rest of the world understands that they are hard working, respect education, avoid violence. It may not be "fair" but it is just dealing with the reality. And if they want to be angry at a group, take it out on the ghetto thugs that are making good people look bad. And if white people should just "get" it, perhaps so. But many don't and being stubborn and prideful because it is beneath someone to have to point out the differences is a fairly low burden to have to cross to get a better life for your kids.


PQ - you're beating a dead horse. The ideas of Booker T. Washington have long vanished in the black community.


No greater injury can be done to any youth than to let him feel that because he belongs to this or that race he will be advanced in life regardless of his own merits or efforts.
- Booker T Washington

The ideas of Booker T. Washington have long vanished in the black community.

They have done no such thing.

Apparently I'm not the only one that sees the race card being played in your posts penny. As I've said, I have read your posts....they are the reason why I commented. If you don't see it, then you're part of the problem.

There's a difference between being polically incorrect and being racist.

I'm not a racist in any way/shape/form, so you can take that comment you made about me a shove it right where the sun don't shine. Hell, I'm the one that said take the race box off the form....how does that make me racist? And since I'm not the only one seeing your comments that way...we must all be wrong and you must be right...yeah.

Next time you go spouting off flaming comments, why don't you keep them in your little brain. We don't have room for small-minded bigots here.

Okay, then tell me what I wrote that would cause you to say I thought your black neighbors would harm you? That is a horrible thing for you to have accused me of. How could you have ignored what I said about my own neighborhood? If you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been so angry but it was grossly unfair and reckless. I think you own me an explanation for why you would write that about me. In fairness, you shot that over my bow and what do you expect to be the result when you write something like that? You can't claim the high road when you go around making that sort of comment after what I wrote.

Sorry, I'm moving on. I'm not going to keep arguing about this. I've got better things to do.....moving on.

Sorry, I'm moving on. I'm not going to keep arguing about this. I've got better things to do.....moving on.

Like I said - typical COWARD. You know you had no cause to make that awful and unfair statement and instead of just admitting it, you cut and run. I suspect you were aiming at someone else and just lumped me in with them. Show some integrity.

They have done no such thing.

They might still be held onto by a select few individuals, but they are not mainstream thinking.

Okay, then tell me what I wrote that would cause you to say I thought your black neighbors would harm you? That is a horrible thing for you to have accused me of. How could you have ignored what I said about my own neighborhood? If you hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been so angry but it was grossly unfair and reckless. I think you own me an explanation for why you would write that about me. In fairness, you shot that over my bow and what do you expect to be the result when you write something like that? You can't claim the high road when you go around making that sort of comment after what I wrote.

All you need to do is read what you've wrote. It isn't that hard.

They might still be held onto by a select few individuals, but they are not mainstream thinking.

This seems to be a fact in your mind and that's cool with me. My experience in my own life with my family, friends, and associates tells a different story. We'll just keep doing what we're doing.

All you need to do is read what you've wrote. It isn't that hard.

It is easy to conclude I am a racist who thinks black neighbors will harm you if you are so inclined and unethical enough to ignore my own statement that I lived in an integrated neighborhood with no fear of my black neighbors - and my other statements. I have asked, repeatedly, for someone to tell me what they based the accusation and the claim that I thought MWC's black neighbors would harm him. Just as I predicted, he has cut and run rather than back up his statement.

The reason we have so many people making baseless and hateful accusations of racism is because they can do it with impunity and don't understand how hateful that is. Perhaps they didn't grow up with it. When you can just throw that out based on your opinion, without being willing or ethical enough to back it up with an explanation other than a conclusory statement, it is clear the accuser how no understanding or respect for true racism. It is easy enough - how does MWC justify claiming that I believed his black neighbors would hurt him when I didn't think that about mine and specifically made the point that all black people aren't like the small minority that are "ghetto?"? The fact that he won't answer says it all. And as for you, just what exactly do YOU based your hateful accusation upon? Or is conclusion without proof or explanation all you need? Racism used to be considered just about as awful as being a criminal. For some of us, it still is. For people who trivialize it, it is just a weapon to throw out willy nilly.

It is easy to conclude I am a racist who thinks black neighbors will harm you if you are so inclined and unethical enough to ignore my own statement that I lived in an integrated neighborhood with no fear of my black neighbors - and my other statements. I have asked, repeatedly, for someone to tell me what they based the accusation and the claim that I thought MWC's black neighbors would harm him. Just as I predicted, he has cut and run rather than back up his statement.

The reason we have so many people making baseless and hateful accusations of racism is because they can do it with impunity and don't understand how hateful that is. Perhaps they didn't grow up with it. When you can just throw that out based on your opinion, without being willing or ethical enough to back it up with an explanation other than a conclusory statement, it is clear the accuser how no understanding or respect for true racism. It is easy enough - how does MWC justify claiming that I believed his black neighbors would hurt him when I didn't think that about mine and specifically made the point that all black people aren't like the small minority that are "ghetto?"? The fact that he won't answer says it all. And as for you, just what exactly do YOU based your hateful accusation upon? Or is conclusion without proof or explanation all you need? Racism used to be considered just about as awful as being a criminal. For some of us, it still is. For people who trivialize it, it is just a weapon to throw out willy nilly.

First of all, I made no "hateful" accusation. Where in my suggestion on how to figure out why MWC did make that statement to you did I make this accusation?

So did you reread your posts as suggested? Let me summarize: black violence...black...black...black....ghetto...black ...black. Here's a reply to one:

BG and Penny - I think you made my arguement for me, even though you think you are actually making a race arguement. What you said IS SOCIOECONOMICS...NOT RACE. If you base crime statistics off of neighborhoods, then you're basing it off of socioeconomics. The racial makeup of that neighborhood has 0%, zero, nadda, zilch, to do with the crime rate.

Hell if I based my opinion of the crime rate in Edmond off of how many times I saw Lynda Chu on TV, I'd think it was an inner-city thugfest.

Just because a person is of one race, does not predispose them to a life of, or life lacking, crime. There's no nature vs. nuture arguement. It's just as possisble for a white person to end up in a life of crime as a black person. What I will agree with is that statistically, you might see higher numbers of a particular group, but that can be traced back to their economic condition and the social means to that end.

With your arguement, I should be worried that my black neighbors are going to rob me one day simply because they are black and that's about the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. This isn't the Jim Crowe era, so leave your racist crap in your own head.

See there! It's right there! The answer you've been looking for! Hallelujah! You see, you keep insisting that this is a problem with a race of people (not all) but race IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED. I guess you missed it the first time because you kept going on and on.

Here's what you've essentially said (very generalized):
Black people are violent : black people cannot change their race : black people are violent

Here's what MWC was trying to explain had your read:
Lower socioeconomic classes are violent : black people comprise all classes : poor black people are violent

I don't really care how many black friends you have, or what neighborhoods you've lived in, as a human being, I find your posts troubling and sad (for more information, just refer to all of your posts on this thread). I'm not going to say you're racist because I think that requires intention, so I'll just go with......oblivious.

First of all, I made no "hateful" accusation. Where in my suggestion on how to figure out why MWC did make that statement to you did I make this accusation?

So did you reread your posts as suggested? Let me summarize: black violence...black...black...black....ghetto...black ...black. Here's a reply to one:


See there! It's right there! The answer you've been looking for! Hallelujah! You see, you keep insisting that this is a problem with a race of people (not all) but race IS NOT DIRECTLY RELATED. I guess you missed it the first time because you kept going on and on.

Here's what you've essentially said (very generalized):
Black people are violent : black people cannot change their race : black people are violent

Here's what MWC was trying to explain had your read:
Lower socioeconomic classes are violent : black people comprise all classes : poor black people are violent

I don't really care how many black friends you have, or what neighborhoods you've lived in, as a human being, I find your posts troubling and sad (for more information, just refer to all of your posts on this thread). I'm not going to say you're racist because I think that requires intention, so I'll just go with......oblivious.

I am more unhappy with MWC's false accusation than your just piling on. His statement was horribly unfair and unwarranted. As for black violence - are you actually saying that if someone says ghetto blacks tend to lead violent lifestyles and makes a distinction between ghetto black lifestyle and middle class black people that makes them a racist? So be it, then. That might explain the horror I have seen displayed. You aren't supposed to point out the obvious, backed up with overwhelming statistics. It goes back to what I said, before - many are quick to label political incorrectness as racism. And it is why we can't have an honest and respectful discussion of race relations.

Interesting to watch the attempts to dissuade the Hitler Youth from their brain-washed, vehement--and--stupefyingly incorrect exposition of what they have been "taught"...points to a bleak future...

zrfdude,

You're being PC if you think race doesn't play a role. If it's strictly a socioeconomic question, please check the hard hit northern plains states and look at the poverty pockets. Notice the crime per thousand people is so low as to be safer than Quail Creek here in Oklahoma City. Why do poor blacks rape, rob, vandalize, etc. and the poor whites in those states just mentioned do not? Why can't you admit that mainstream black culture glorifies violence? Penny is right - the educated, middle-class blacks are a sub-culture...and that's sad. Simply pointing it out doesn't make one "racist." But what you're doing is, in fact, racist. We've got a long way to go in this country regarding race relations and throwing off the victim mentality in the black community has to be a priority. To deny the obvious is just bizarre.

zrfdude,

You're being PC if you think race doesn't play a role. If it's strictly a socioeconomic question, please check the hard hit northern plains states and look at the poverty pockets. Notice the crime per thousand people is so low as to be safer than Quail Creek here in Oklahoma City. Why do poor blacks rape, rob, vandalize, etc. and the poor whites in those states just mentioned do not? Why can't you admit that mainstream black culture glorifies violence? Penny is right - the educated, middle-class blacks are a sub-culture...and that's sad. Simply pointing it out doesn't make one "racist." But what you're doing is, in fact, racist. We've got a long way to go in this country regarding race relations and throwing off the victim mentality in the black community has to be a priority. To deny the obvious is just bizarre.

Actually, I said the ghetto blacks were a subclass of the mainstream, middle class black people.

The very notion that I stated that from the getgo would tell any thinking person that I don't think this is an issue of race so much as cultural. I am still flabberghasted that when someone writes that ghetto black behavior is an outlier of mainstream black culture and that ghetto black behavior is wrongfully being held up as typical black behavior they are called a racist. What is wrong with you people?

Actually, I said the ghetto blacks were a subclass of the mainstream, middle class black people.

The very notion that I stated that from the getgo would tell any thinking person that I don't think this is an issue of race so much as cultural. I am still flabberghasted that when someone writes that ghetto black behavior is an outlier of mainstream black culture and that ghetto black behavior is wrongfully being held up as typical black behavior they are called a racist. What is wrong with you people?

I guess I'm the racist then because I believe what I thought you said to be true.

I guess I'm the racist then because I believe what I thought you said to be true.

I understand why you feel that way and perhaps my life experience with so many middle class black families, coupled with growing up on the east side gives me a different perspective. And your opinion, by the by, is exactly why I think white people who have not had that experience would benefit from middle class black people helping them to understand the distinction. Taking that position, sadly, is what has resulted in my being labeled a racist.

I understand why you feel that way and perhaps my life experience with so many middle class black families, coupled with growing up on the east side gives me a different perspective. And your opinion, by the by, is exactly why I think white people who have not had that experience would benefit from middle class black people helping them to understand the distinction. Taking that position, sadly, is what has resulted in my being labeled a racist.

It is always so curious how many leftys stand rigid for any black cause--which is often laudable--but make DAMN SURE their kids NEVER go to school with them, and they mostly live in gated neighborhoods where blacks would never get past the gate...the East Coast is FULL of this kind of crap. Or Malibu, as well--out West. Liberals adore all blacks--as long as they are obedient to their cause. And--as long as they stay in their own neighborhoods. Don't think so....ask black folks!

Moreover, anyone who wants to have a frank discussion about it - if white - is labeled a racist - by white people. Yeah, we are really going to get past the issue when we can't talk about it without risk of being attacked. Both Mike and I are labeled racists even though we don't have the same conclusion about the issue. So why try to even discuss it?

When I was in lawschool, I was involved in oral argument competition. We used to get what were called "friendly questions" from our practice judges, from time to time. Most of the people who were just learning treated any question as an attack and didn't even listen to what was being asked. The end result was that even when asked a question that HELPED them make their point, they were so defensive that they attacked the ones agreeing with them. The exercise was to force us to pay attention to what was actually being asked and recognize it for what it was. Attacking a judge who is on your side is a quick way to indicate you aren't paying attention - and a faster way to lose credibility because if you can't even recognize when someone agrees with you, anything out of your mouth after that is suspect. IMO, what was demonstrated in this thread is exactly the same sort of sloppy discussion.

This is what I mean when I call some...Hitler Youth...totally brain-washed kids with NO CONCEPT of anything other than Party Dogma furnished by the left. Any opposition of any kind to this dogma is racist, evil and paints you as a evil baby-killer. It is INTOLERANT. The LEFT is an utterly intolerant crowd...and they have the Crown Prince of Intolerance as their Leader...Obama. They are as easily led and those goggle-eyed kids at Nuremburg we saw in Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will...

And PennyQuilts goes on the magic ignore list....bye bye annoying lady.

Few things in this life are more hurtful and dreaded...than being spurned on these threads by malcontents...I hope Penny is able to continue with her life after this devastating rejection. I hope she is able to find solace somewhere...even if only in small measure. Is there any other life...than threads here?

And PennyQuilts goes on the magic ignore list....bye bye annoying lady.

Except that he sent me a poison pm - coward as usual.

Many of these threads are caveat emptor threads...populated by bitter people with a thousand axes to grind...fun to play with sometimes...of almost no value in terms of edification...but--it takes all kinds to make the world and I like to see all opinions, myself. If anyone is doing otherwise here...well...Ben Franklin said it succinctly--"he that lives on hope will die fasting."

This seems to be a fact in your mind and that's cool with me. My experience in my own life with my family, friends, and associates tells a different story. We'll just keep doing what we're doing.

If you and your family subscribe to the belief system of Booker T. Washington then more power to you. We need more people like you and less people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

For those that would rather listen to a book than read it - here you go.

http://www.freeaudio.org/btwashington/

If you and your family subscribe to the belief system of Booker T. Washington then more power to you. We need more people like you and less people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

I was waiting for somebody to play the Jackson/Sharpton card. And as expected somebody did.

I wish the US media would quit letting these guys speak for all African Americans on all issues until there is a fair election to elect the official 'black' spokesman. That seems fair doesn't it?

I was waiting for somebody to play the Jackson/Sharpton card. And as expected somebody did.

I wish the US media would quit letting these guys speak for all African Americans on all issues until there is a fair election to elect the official 'black' spokesman. That seems fair doesn't it?

Why do you think the "US Media" chooses Jackson/Sharpton as the "official black spokesmen"? As you point out, they are not elected by anyone to represent blacks, but yet there they are on TV all the time.