Are those "jobs saved"? Using presidential math the city over-delivered. If I was an OKC sales tax payer I would be outraged that more MAPS III money is going to police and fire than was promised.

That may be the problem with "presidential math"...LOL

Spend more money and "save positions" when in reality positions were cut and not added as promised.

I've learned to avoid these threads like the plague and accidentally clicked on this one. All I'm going to say is that when it comes to math, the product can be changed by changing the divisor as well as the dividend. So, if there is not as much money as anticipated, one can reduce salaries or, dare I say it, change retirement age or retirement benefits, and increase the number of firefighter jobs thereby as well. Everything I've heard from retired firefighters and their families leads me to think that they do VERY well post-retirement, considering the number of years they work, the required number of years of education for the position and/or their potential age at retirement. I would suggest that, like social security, if a retired firefighter makes over a certain income post-retirement, their benefits are reduced commensurately. If that is already the case, I stand corrected. If not, it's a reasonable suggestion, to my way of thinking. Adios.

The twenty year retirement was enacted because of the short post retirement life of a
career firefighter. Firefighters die 10-12 years earlier than the average expected life in the jurisdiction
they worked in.
As far as required education level, this topic is only brought up by college educated individuals.
Consider the work being performed and/or the importance of the work.
There is no valid reason to consider education level as the measuring stick.
However, you would be surprised at the number of college educated firefighters on the OCFD.

I thought that the statement that firefighters have a significantly decreased life span was an interesting statement, so I tried to find some data. One question I would have is whether the fact that there is a higher mortality for the profession skews the average lifespan data. I found a California study that supposedly debunked the fact that firefighters have decreased mortality, but it didn't really show any good data. There was a German study that showed survival advantage for firefighters, which they attributed to better fitness. I found a British study that showed a decreased lifespan of approximately one year for firefighters over age adjusted males in other occupations. Not working at all had the highest mortality rate, interestingly. So, I'll have to say the jury is out on that statement for the time being. I'm willing to be convinced, however.

My argument about education and income is related to lost years of income. I agree that there are probably many firefighters with college educations. If they don't start firefighting until they have completed college, then they have to be at least 44 to retire. I have to be 65, so they've got 20 years on me. But, if they start work at 18, I finished my educations at 30. I lost 12 years of income, not to mention expense for education. Then, I have to work 25 years longer than they do before I can retire. It seems a little unfair, to be honest with you since I consider my job equally important. If the data being bandied around here is accurate, as well, I don't make any more than many firefighters. I just suggested to my son that he be a firefighter, because I think it may be more lucrative than just about anything he can do with a bachelor's degree, and he'll have 20 years post retirement to pursue a different career.

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

It seems a little unfair, to be honest with you since I consider my job equally important. If the data being bandied around here is accurate, as well, I don't make any more than many firefighters. I just suggested to my son that he be a firefighter, because I think it may be more lucrative than just about anything he can do with a bachelor's degree, and he'll have 20 years post retirement to pursue a different career.

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

True, but in perspective, Joe Blow's 2080 hours by and large don't have on the clock rec time, sleep time, chow time, food shopping time, poo/shower/shave time, telly time, shoot the bull time, etc. as recurring parts of Joe's work hours. By nature of the 24 hour shift, fire folk do. Be also to be fair and continue to keep perspective, most Joe Blow's aren't likely to face life or death situations very often, if ever, unlike their public safety counterparts who can and will be in harm's way to various degrees (no pun intended.)

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

You know, it is this kind of arrogance that turns people off. A lot of people do important jobs and they pay taxes to have services provided. Hate to tell you, but if every firefighter died tomorrow we would train and hire more firefighters. Everyone can be replaced. I know nurses that work much harder and longer hours than the firefighters I know and they get paid less. Teachers make much less. There are all kinds of services that society determines to be important.

Just to be clear, my statement on a job's importance
was benign. I certainly was not commenting on work's inherent dignity.

As far as "down time" goes, there isn't as much as you probably think.
But there is some. During the short bursts of down time firefighters are not off duty
to do as they wish.

Also, keep in mind, this "public safety vs. The City" talk isn't on the minds of the average OKC resident. The "downtown lovers" seem to be overly consumed with the topic. It has developed into quite a pastime. I can assure you firefighters are not your enemy. Firefighters are the highest ranked city service in city funded polls.
The good job firefighters have done has helped the city gain a lot of trust.

Peace....

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

Were a firefighter working every single hour he was scheduled to be on shift, that might be a reasonable argument. But, like me, you have many hours when you're scheduled, but you might be sleeping, or on your computer, cooking a nice meal, working out or playing volleyball. I don't technically get paid for those hours when I'm on call but I might not actually have to do work, so they don't really get counted in my percent time worked either. People who have a 9 to 5 job are usually working every hour they're scheduled to work. So, we're comparing apples and oranges.

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

That's an interesting statement, considering the fact that probably 10% or more of the physicians working in Oklahoma City today were trained in part by me directly. I wonder how the world would run without a single physician. We could give it a try......

Were a firefighter working every single hour he was scheduled to be on shift, that might be a reasonable argument. But, like me, you have many hours when you're scheduled, but you might be sleeping, or on your computer, cooking a nice meal, working out or playing volleyball. I don't technically get paid for those hours when I'm on call but I might not actually have to do work, so they don't really get counted in my percent time worked either. People who have a 9 to 5 job are usually working every hour they're scheduled to work. So, we're comparing apples and oranges.

Marshall is Superman. He doesn't eat, sleep, or play on the computer while on the job at OKC's finest.

FWIW my father was a firefighter in another state, he retired after 25 years on the job, he passed away 6 months later. I can't say for sure that the job was the cause or not. As far as working shifts, it's not cut and dry, I really dislike the "volleyball" comments. Yes on occasion, they might play volleyball, but I would imagine like in my father's time, they have training requirements and other duties to do ie Checking hydrants, maintenance on vehicles/hoses. I have also seen where they have dropped everything to go on a run during those "grocery runs" that some like to complain about. I've done shift work when I was in the USAF, not busy some times but busy as hell at others.

So the firefighters cast their lot with the 'no' crowd, put all their cards on the table, lost and still want to get their cut? Sorry fellas, nowhere in the real world does it work that way. You get on the wrong side of an issue, sometimes, there's a price to pay.

Betts, I see it differently. When I go to work, I am at work for 24 hours. I can't leave, can't go to my kids ganes, can't sleep in my bed, can't go anywhere I want. As far as I am concerned it makes no difference to me if I make 1 call or 15, I am at work. On the rare occasion I might sleep through the night, I am still at work.

Midtowner, you are a piece of work. You are pushing the idea of punishing a certain group for not thinking like you. Bottom line, the city came to us with this final contract offer. Apparently their polling data was showing that they were being seen as bullies for offering the firefighters far less than the garbage collectors and sewer workers.

If the firefighters had supported MAPS 3 there is NO evidence in existance that indicates the city would have treated them any different. Those on the horseshoe talk a good game...Anybody who has any sense about how the city negotiates with its employee groups would know that.

Well I don't feell like the MAPS vote has anything to do with it. If the FF's had not been an opposition group, and we were still facing the same issues, there simply would have been another scapegoat.

I'm going to play balancer here though. On one hand, I agree with Betts, and on the other, Mustang (and believe it or not, Mikemarsh). Yes, a FF gets paid, no matter what they are doing, for those 24 hour shifts. Whether they are saving a life or taking a poo. But you WANT that person available 24/7 for that call at YOUR house. We hire them expecting that they will do that so that they are ready to jump at any time to save you/your home. So yes we do pay them to do SOME relaxing, but we wouldn't have it any other way. And as Mike said, they are away from their family.

I agree with Betts that a FF is no more important than the next person either...everyone is replaceable....in everything. I also feel like the FF's we see on this forum, aren't a representation of the FF's in general....so we're even there if you think our opinions don't represent all tax payers.