They shouldn't repave the streets if they just did it, but rejecting the rest of it is lame.

Yeah but the street is asphalt and all the new ones are concrete, its not just a simple repave job folks, curb style and other things go into it, I highly recommend anyone that hasn't to check it out by the ford center. Sounds like the compromise accomplishes nothing and will have a couple inconsistent blocks downtown. I thought we were trying to unify and update our downtown, the city caving in boggles me, but is OKC standard I guess.

My impression is that Mr. Dowell likes to bully the other property owners in the area to see things his way. Most of the protest letters sent to the city were a copy/paste form letter that Mr. Dowell likely composed. He's trying to build a character district out of a few older buildings and surface parking lots.

On the bright side, it's easy to see that Dowell has done quality work on the buildings he owns. His taste in fixtures is odd. He has a penchant for motifs that are expensive and sometimes questionable. He moves incredibly slowly on buildings when he's renovating them. But he's done a good job and gets zero recognition due to his inability to play nicely and socialize with other downtown movers and shakers.

I am for them keeping the streetscapes they put in there just 2 years ago. Maybe they could spend the money in Bricktown, or commit it to providing all of downtown with the angled parking that will soon line North Broadway. Or find less constructive ends to put the money towards..

or send the money to the SkyDance Bridge project. ....

or send the money to the SkyDance Bridge project. ....

Like!

Agree!

That would be an interesting solution. Would have to get Larry Nichols or John Richels to agree.

I would think/hope that they'd agree.

But does the sales tax collections have anything to do with the Devon TIF? I thought the TIF was property tax and the announced increase was in sales.

nevertheless, if Nichols/Richels has any say - I hope they'd agree to use any increase to do all downtown projects - RIGHT -.

SkyDance to me, could be a true defining icon of OKC - it should be done right! And now here is a potential money source without raising taxes or delivering a subpar bridge to the voters. hint hint

I would think/hope that they'd agree.

But does the sales tax collections have anything to do with the Devon TIF? I thought the TIF was property tax and the announced increase was in sales.

nevertheless, if Nichols/Richels has any say - I hope they'd agree to use any increase to do all downtown projects - RIGHT -.

SkyDance to me, could be a true defining icon of OKC - it should be done right! And now here is a potential money source without raising taxes or delivering a subpar bridge to the voters. hint hint

No, no, no.. I think the 15% rise in sales tax collections over last year was announced in a different thread. What we were talking about here is that Project 180 is going to exclude the Rick Dowell is Difficult to Deal With District. That means less money being expended on streetscapes. That's where people are saying Project 180 now has some more funds.

Of course, we'll have to wait and see and won't truly know if that's the case until the work is contracted.

I have a feeling Thunder is speaking of something like the curbs in Back to the Future II.....which are a total waste of energy and effort. Not only does it NOT provide lighting to replace a streetlight, but you wouldn't want it to anyway. If it were bright enough to do that, it would also BLIND the drivers from being underneath....ever tried to drive INTO the sunset/sunrise? Lighting down to the road is far more effective than up....up is just wasting electricity for looks...which is NOT what Project 180 is about.



Yeah, If they wanted to "light up" a curb they would just install reflectors. A car's headlights would provided more light than LED lights in the ground.

I was just driving around downtown and the amazing thing is how many roads are torn up, but no one is working on them. Why not just tear up the roads when they're actually going to work on them. It's amazingly inefficient and unneccessary.

Hmmm.... I work in the middle of it all at it's being worked on constantly... maybe it was just your timing.

I was wondering if anyone knew when the work on Oklahoma Ave. east of Automobile Alley is supposed to be done?

I know it's not a part of Project 180, but it is downtown and I didn't know a more logical place to ask.

Hmmm.... I work in the middle of it all at it's being worked on constantly... maybe it was just your timing.

Is it just me or have they been working on the street in front of La Luna for 9 months? What about Reno between the OKC Areana and the Cox Center?!? It was supposed to be done near the Thumder season opener and it's still closed (in October)!!!!!! Sorry, but it seems like they are being really arrogant about actually finishing streets...

Oklahoma has had dream weather for construction for the latter half of this year..

Is it just me or have they been working on the street in front of La Luna for 9 months? What about Reno between the OKC Areana and the Cox Center?!? It was supposed to be done near the Thumder season opener and it's still closed (in October)!!!!!! Sorry, but it seems like they are being really arrogant about actually finishing streets...

Is there any particular reason why you think they might want to delay finishing streets?

Is there any particular reason why you think they might want to delay finishing streets?

No clue. Please enlighten me.

No clue. Please enlighten me.

I doubt it's intentional (but you never know), it's more just the way things are done here, sadly. For OKC road construction projects, there are no incentives and pretty much no penalties (info from an OKC road construction project manager via email), so time (and maybe cost) overruns are just seen as normal, apparently. Not sure how it is with ODOT or other agencies, though.

it's more just the way things are done here, sadly.

Never a post that doesn't insult the whole area. It must be a joy to know you in real life! Geeze.

I was wondering if anyone knew when the work on Oklahoma Ave. east of Automobile Alley is supposed to be done?

I know it's not a part of Project 180, but it is downtown and I didn't know a more logical place to ask.

So does anyone know? Or is it already done?

Never a post that doesn't insult the whole area. It must be a joy to know you in real life! Geeze.

Wrong on the first count, and you shouldn't ever assume anything in real life based on what you read online.

As a follow-up, I don't think I've seen an OKC road construction project come in on time/early, on/under budget. I'm probably wrong on this since I obviously don't know all the timelines of all the OKC road construction projects since OKC began. I'd just love it if it could be proven that more often than not, OKC road construction projects finish on time/early and are on/under budget.

I have suggested to the City that they have an ongoing list for all projects.

I would like to be able to view, start dates, budget amounts, progress dates, ending dates, etc.

Would be great info for taxpayers and citizens.

Wrong on the first count, and you shouldn't ever assume anything in real life based on what you read online.

As a follow-up, I don't think I've seen an OKC road construction project come in on time/early, on/under budget. I'm probably wrong on this since I obviously don't know all the timelines of all the OKC road construction projects since OKC began. I'd just love it if it could be proven that more often than not, OKC road construction projects finish on time/early and are on/under budget.

I'd like to see road construction projects ANYWHERE that come in on time, early or are under budget. We haven't lived in the same places, but I've never been overwhelmed by city or state efficiency anywhere.

I doubt it's intentional (but you never know), it's more just the way things are done here, sadly. For OKC road construction projects, there are no incentives and pretty much no penalties (info from an OKC road construction project manager via email), so time (and maybe cost) overruns are just seen as normal, apparently. Not sure how it is with ODOT or other agencies, though.

Your'e wrong, during my 28 plus with the City of OKC I was involved with several street rebuild and new construction, and evryone had an early completion bonus and/or late penalty attached to it.

I'd like to see road construction projects ANYWHERE that come in on time, early or are under budget. We haven't lived in the same places, but I've never been overwhelmed by city or state efficiency anywhere.

Lindsey street in Norman near the stadium wasn't supposed to be ready until the 2nd week of the football season and they had it done by week 1. Then again, when OU football is involved, things get done... lol.

No clue. Please enlighten me.

I was hoping you could enlighten me as to why you felt that way. I see no reason to agree with you at this point.

I have suggested to the City that they have an ongoing list for all projects.

I would like to be able to view, start dates, budget amounts, progress dates, ending dates, etc.

Would be great info for taxpayers and citizens.

Hey don't push it, just be grateful for the Project 180 newsletter.

[/B]

Your'e wrong, during my 28 plus with the City of OKC I was involved with several street rebuild and new construction, and evryone had an early completion bonus and/or late penalty attached to it.

This was in an email I received from an OKC Public Works Project Manager (hate to post this because it was in a private email, but it's pretty much public info, so...). Questions are mine, bolded answers are from OKC. Pretty cut and dried if you ask me as far as incentives, but looks like there *could*, *maybe*, *possibly* be penalties. So how wrong am I? :headscrat

Is there any penalty for contractors that do not finish road construction projects by the contracted end date?
If it is determined the delay in finishing a project is the responsibility of the contractor then we could assess liquidated damage, if they have two ongoing project in liquidated damages then their bidding privileges would be suspended.

Is there any incentive for contractors that finish road construction projects early?
There are not any incentives.

I'd like to see road construction projects ANYWHERE that come in on time, early or are under budget. We haven't lived in the same places, but I've never been overwhelmed by city or state efficiency anywhere.

Surprisingly in the Chicago metro area, projects just flew. No, not all, and some were tollway projects, which I'm sure are different than regular road construction (as they usually are in most states), but they were out there working at night, on weekends, etc. Yes, their construction season is shorter, but they also have incentives, which most of the time meant projects finished somewhat early.

I have suggested to the City that they have an ongoing list for all projects.

I would like to be able to view, start dates, budget amounts, progress dates, ending dates, etc.

Would be great info for taxpayers and citizens.

Yes, yes, yes!!! It was quite annoying to try to find info on the whole Western, May, Penn, NW 164th, etc. construction on *any* website. OKC's and OK's websites just aren't quite up to where I (and others, always have to say that) believe they should be. Hard to navigate, not enough info (like what you're talking about), just not as friendly or informative as other state/city websites. Yeah, that's another dig at the whole area, go ahead, bust me on it again... But how do we try to get the websites better? What can we/I do to offer something constructive instead of just griping (I'm thinking maybe let OKC and OK know the websites of other states/cities that are good, or list what they need on the websites or ...)? Will it work, will anybody listen, does anybody care or is the status quo just fine?

I was hoping you could enlighten me as to why you felt that way. I see no reason to agree with you at this point.

I would guess it wasn't "planned," but they just planned poorly. A lot of people run businesses or do their jobs poorly. My guess is that they are doing their jobs poorly. A half block street shouldn't be torn up for most of a year. That is ridiculous.

TheTravellers:

The saying has gone, "as long as it isn't crappy, we're happy". Now your definition of crappy may differ but that seems to be the attitude of many (have run into it a time or two in these threads...LOL).

TheTravellers:

The saying has gone, "as long as it isn't crappy, we're happy". Now your definition of crappy may differ but that seems to be the attitude of many (have run into it a time or two in these threads...LOL).

Close. If you're referring to a former OKC public works director, "Slightly better than crappy makes us happy."

LOL...I had read it in one of Steve's blogs awhile back, so may not have been a direct quote...my bad...

Close. If you're referring to a former OKC public works director, "Slightly better than crappy makes us happy."

:doh: Sigh... And that's what I'm talking about, why can't we be completely un-crappy? Be whole-a**ed instead of half-a**ed, do it right, .... :dontgetit

I know it's ODOT and not the City Of Oklahoma City construction but I could have sworn a few years back when they redid the I-240/I-35 interchange that they had an incentives program going on--which is amazing in itself.

On the bright side, it's easy to see that Dowell has done quality work on the buildings he owns. His taste in fixtures is odd. He has a penchant for motifs that are expensive and sometimes questionable. He moves incredibly slowly on buildings when he's renovating them. But he's done a good job and gets zero recognition due to his inability to play nicely and socialize with other downtown movers and shakers.

I can kind of see Dowell's argument, and I definitely agree that he has done some great renovations. The building on Walker directly north of Goodyear has taken forever, but he's added a third story with ornate stone/concrete features and brickwork to match the historic building below. Just proves that not everything has to be a boring box.


Is it just me or have they been working on the street in front of La Luna for 9 months?

Definitely not. I've been gone from OKC less than 6 months and it wasn't closed when I left.

It seems like main street is taking much longer than I thought it would. They were quick to tear the street out but now it seems as if not much work happens day to day there. It gets a little frustrating since I office on main and the parking around my building is a mess.

I hear there may be some issues with cost estimates that they're trying to get through.

The biggst holdup/delay is that while doing excavation, they found several utliity lines, pipes, street car rails, etc; that were not on any maps. these items required extra time and expense to test and move or remove.

It'd be cool to snap a pic of those street car rails before they yank 'em out!

Why yank them out? If possible reuse them, especially if they are along the route. Will be interesting to compare the previous streetcar routes with the new ones

Those rails are old. Remember, they buried a Cadillac in Tulsa for 50 years in an air tight crypt and it decomposed. You're going to want new rail. The technology has changed way too much since those rails were buried.

It might have been air tight but it wasn't water tight as it flooded. How long do rail lines last before they are replaced anyway? What has changed from a tech point? Can understand if the width of the wheels has changed or something like that but aren't the in the ground portion of the rail system the same now as 50 or 100 years ago? I don't know, that's why I am asking.

For one thing, those old rails couldn't support the weight of a modern street car.

For one thing, those old rails couldn't support the weight of a modern street car.

Exactly, Kerry. They were built according to specifications for 80 years ago.

Would have thought things would have gotten lighter rather than heavier I am thinking in terms of autos for comparison. If you are comparing a Model T against a current model, probably is heavier but cars from the 50's were considerably heavier than those built now. So maybe you are right.

Here is a reply on Yahoo Answers:

"The pound rating is pounds per yard. 140 pounds is pretty hefty. The Transcontinental Roalroad completed in 1869 was built with 45 pound rail. The maximum load that a steel rail can support (with properly spaced ties) is 300 pounds per wheel for each pound weight of rail per yard. In other words, the Transcontinental RR could safely carry 300 x 45 pounds per wheel. Or, 13,500 pounds per wheel, which is 27,000 pounds per axle (13.5 tons). As trains got heavier, so did the rail. By 1880, the normal mainline rail weight was 56 pounds. By 1910, it was 90 pounds."

Basically, even for streetcars, cars in general are getting heavier due to amenities and technology, you could say.

The people riding them are heavier. LOL

After this many decades the roadbed would be suspect and the ties would be bad.

The people riding them are heavier. LOL

Well, there ya go...

After this many decades the roadbed would be suspect and the ties would be bad.

Especially considering they were wooden ties back then. Anyone ever noticed you can still the trolley tracks on 4th street where they go under the railroad tracks.

Here is a reply on Yahoo Answers:

"The pound rating is pounds per yard. 140 pounds is pretty hefty. The Transcontinental Roalroad completed in 1869 was built with 45 pound rail. The maximum load that a steel rail can support (with properly spaced ties) is 300 pounds per wheel for each pound weight of rail per yard. In other words, the Transcontinental RR could safely carry 300 x 45 pounds per wheel. Or, 13,500 pounds per wheel, which is 27,000 pounds per axle (13.5 tons). As trains got heavier, so did the rail. By 1880, the normal mainline rail weight was 56 pounds. By 1910, it was 90 pounds."

Basically, even for streetcars, cars in general are getting heavier due to amenities and technology, you could say.

OK, everyone has convinced me that we can't use the old tracks (where they still exist). But I have serious questions:
1) Is this an ongoing trend? That they are getting heavier still?
2) If so, is that being taken into account with the planning of the MAPS 3 Streetcars? 3) What is the lifespan of track before it has to be replaced (with the same weight parameters)?
4) Does the weight change make the replacement schedule more rapid? How does that effect the cost of maintaining the system?

I suspect that most people see the tracks as being somewhat "permanent" without needing replacement for at least several decades. Is that a myth?

OK, everyone has convinced me that we can't use the old tracks (where they still exist). But I have serious questions:
1) Is this an ongoing trend? That they are getting heavier still?
2) If so, is that being taken into account with the planning of the MAPS 3 Streetcars? 3) What is the lifespan of track before it has to be replaced (with the same weight parameters)?
4) Does the weight change make the replacement schedule more rapid? How does that effect the cost of maintaining the system?

I suspect that most people see the tracks as being somewhat "permanent" without needing replacement for at least several decades. Is that a myth?

I believe once you have the track in place, you tend set the specifications for manufactures to bid projects for new cars on that as long as possible. You just may not be getting modern street cars at that time.

I believe once you have the track in place, you tend set the specifications for manufactures to bid projects for new cars on that as long as possible. You just may not be getting modern street cars at that time.

Yes, these tracks will not be freight tracks. The weight of freight cars, I imagine are far heavier (with full loads) than a street car with people on it. The specifications for rail pounds will be less than a Class I railroad but more than the rails that were put in in circa 1920's.

Yes, these tracks will not be freight tracks. The weight of freight cars, I imagine are far heavier (with full loads) than a street car with people on it. The specifications for rail pounds will be less than a Class I railroad but more than the rails that were put in in circa 1920's.

Much heavier, a loaded grain car can weigh in at 130 tons.

Found tracks under Reno in front of Peacock Restaurant. This is all supposed to be done by the arts festival right..This is what construction bosses tell me on the ground.. Believe it or Not

I applied for the project 180 position so if I get it, I'll be sure to keep you guys very informed.

For Heavens Sake !!! Please finish poring my Dang Driveway off of Walker. Its killing my business.. I am going to call L.S. and complain. I am sure she has heard it all.

metro you can take Mrs L.S. position she is changing departments.