Panda, I love hearing that. I was going by people that were complaining that I heard and the wrestling message boards have a couple threads about OKC and it isn't a very nice read. I am sure that many did enjoy and have better impressions. I was most disappointed in how unprepared that most business were and our leaders for not advertising and spreading the word out to businesses all over the city as to how big of an event this was. Like I said, I never saw one single sign even welcoming people here for the even and like I said, it was a huge one with a 15 million dollar economic impact.

I saw where some local people associated with the events have already forwarded letters to the mayor, etc. as they were none to happy. Sorry for being negative in my posts but it is tough love I promise. I dream of OKC becoming some great city and sometimes I have to realize it never will be all that I hope and dream for it to be but much better than I ever envisioned it to be several years ago.

FWIW (and that isn't much), while out with my brother [see above], I did see a sign somewhere for this. I can't remember where it was (perhaps outside Devon, or on a billboard of some sort?), but I must have seen it because I found out it was going on somewhere while downtown and I wouldn't have known about this otherwise...

While we're sharing anecdotes, I had my twin brother in town and showed him around OKC for the first time. It was just a quick driving tour of some of the core neighborhoods (Bricktown, CBD, Midtown, DD, Plaza, and 23rd St if I recall) but he really didn't enjoy it. He's from NYC and hasn't traveled much outside of the Northeast corridor, so I think that is partly to blame for his skewed perspective (since clearly OKC and NYC aren't comparable), but he commented frequently that the city looks boring, spread out, kept pointing out empty lots and the lack of sidewalks, etc. The worst part for him was the lack of activity outside of car traffic, with almost no one walking around anywhere. I was really dismayed since I'm growing to have a real soft spot for this city even if I do recognize some of its issues, but I'd been hoping that he'd like it here a little more and see its charm. I made sure to tell him about the streetcar, convention center, and Central Park (since I took him to the Skydance bridge which he did enjoy) but he still insisted that OKC was simply "the biggest small town [he'd] ever seen."

Oh well... not gonna win 'em all, I guess.

If one requires the 24/7 stimulation of places like NYC, LA, Miami, etc, they probably aren't going to like OKC no matter what (or any small city for that matter). I had a friend in Charlotte who moved to Chicago and every time he came back would complain about how boring Charlotte was. It really does have a "big small town" feel here, which in my opinion has more to do with the family-oriented culture and prevalence of country entertainment than anything else. Your brother may have a different opinion though in ten years when Midtown/SoSA, Auto Alley, Deep Deuce, and Film Row are fully developed and Core2Shore development is ramping up.

Restaurants all over the city, even bricktown didn't even know the even was going on until thousands go in to the restaurants they are so understaffed. At other cities that host it, all over the city are signs saying "welcome wrestling fans" and i never saw one sign anywhere i went. It was 6 sessions for 2 days and 18,000 fans per session so it is a big deal.

There were two HUGE banners on the south side of the Cox Center facing the arena.


Get at least a small part of your facts straight and you might actually engage people in meaningful discussion, although I'm not convinced that is your real intent.

Bro, I've read threads about Austin where people bash it and say what a horrible city it is. Same about Portland, Seattle, NYC, L.A., and any other city. You can't make every single person happy.

Just fyi, going and posting on multiple threads saying pretty much the same thing(I've heard nothing but bad things about OKC and MAPS3 is going to be a failure)... you come off as trolling and with the sole intent of trying to start an argument. Not trying to be a dick, just sayin.

Pretty sure this is they guy whose big idea for taking okc to the next level was filling downtown with a bunch of "Tunica-like" casinos, and then simply persuading Fed Ex and Wal Mart to relocate their corporate headquarters through sheer force of will.

There were two HUGE banners on the south side of the Cox Center facing the arena.


Get at least a small part of your facts straight and you might actually engage people in meaningful discussion, although I'm not convinced that is your real intent.

Also a large banner in the baggage claim at the airport, as well as on the advertising screens in the airport.

Also a large banner in the baggage claim at the airport, as well as on the advertising screens in the airport.

Please don't confuse soondoc with facts.

Also a large banner in the baggage claim at the airport, as well as on the advertising screens in the airport.

Along with the banner, there were reps sitting at a table with info of things to do in OKC by the baggage claim.

Pete, thanks for pointing that out but that "banner" that you saw on the Cox Convention Center travels to every NCAA wrestling tournament and put at a designated area close to the arena to give updated team scores. I attend the event almost every year and that is just standard to have that nearby, so it had nothing to do with the city putting it up. Several people were very upset and have written letters expressing their disappointment that such a great wrestling state like Oklahoma was not prepared in many ways for an event this big and all the people that would be attending over the 3 days. They were shocked by all the responses like "why are their so many people here", "I didn't even know their was a wrestling tournament this weekend" type stuff. I am glad to hear about the airport having people at the baggage claim however. This has nothing to do with projects, etc. but I know a few heavy hitters with a lot of history in the sport and ties to this area were furious and let it be known.

Pete, thanks for pointing that out but that "banner" that you saw on the Cox Convention Center travels to every NCAA wrestling tournament and put at a designated area close to the arena to give updated team scores. I attend the event almost every year and that is just standard to have that nearby, so it had nothing to do with the city putting it up. Several people were very upset and have written letters expressing their disappointment that such a great wrestling state like Oklahoma was not prepared in many ways for an event this big and all the people that would be attending over the 3 days. They were shocked by all the responses like "why are their so many people here", "I didn't even know their was a wrestling tournament this weekend" type stuff. I am glad to hear about the airport having people at the baggage claim however. This has nothing to do with projects, etc. but I know a few heavy hitters with a lot of history in the sport and ties to this area were furious and let it be known.

Okay. Thanks for your insight and commentary. Next item on the agenda...

While we're sharing anecdotes, I had my twin brother in town and showed him around OKC for the first time. It was just a quick driving tour of some of the core neighborhoods (Bricktown, CBD, Midtown, DD, Plaza, and 23rd St if I recall) but he really didn't enjoy it. He's from NYC and hasn't traveled much outside of the Northeast corridor, so I think that is partly to blame for his skewed perspective (since clearly OKC and NYC aren't comparable), but he commented frequently that the city looks boring, spread out, kept pointing out empty lots and the lack of sidewalks, etc. The worst part for him was the lack of activity outside of car traffic, with almost no one walking around anywhere. I was really dismayed since I'm growing to have a real soft spot for this city even if I do recognize some of its issues, but I'd been hoping that he'd like it here a little more and see its charm. I made sure to tell him about the streetcar, convention center, and Central Park (since I took him to the Skydance bridge which he did enjoy) but he still insisted that OKC was simply "the biggest small town [he'd] ever seen."

Oh well... not gonna win 'em all, I guess. I imagine he would have enjoyed himself more if we'd had the opportunity to walk around and actually go out to bars and restaurants, but it just didn't work with our schedule.

Edited to add: Interestingly, the one thing he did seem to dig about OKC was its "grittiness". It isn't a word I would have used on my own, but he did like how many re-worked and re-purposed buildings there were in areas like AA and Film Row... I think he thought it had a true urban look (just with a lack of street life, apparently) rather than a super clean-cut suburban type of neighborhood.

Here's a contrasting anecdote: One of my friend's from Dallas was in OKC for a Friday night a couple weeks ago (we went to Bricktown, Skinny Slim's, Urban Johnnie's, Plaza District during Live on the Plaza) and he couldn't quit talking about how much OKC has grown. He was blown away.

If one requires the 24/7 stimulation of places like NYC, LA, Miami, etc, they probably aren't going to like OKC no matter what (or any small city for that matter). I had a friend in Charlotte who moved to Chicago and every time he came back would complain about how boring Charlotte was. It really does have a "big small town" feel here, which in my opinion has more to do with the family-oriented culture and prevalence of country entertainment than anything else. Your brother may have a different opinion though in ten years when Midtown/SoSA, Auto Alley, Deep Deuce, and Film Row are fully developed and Core2Shore development is ramping up.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. If you grow up in NYC (and love it) and have never really been outside of the NE corridor, there probably aren't many other cities in the US you are going to like besides Chicago and maybe SF. Every other large US city is pretty auto centric to some extent. I wouldn't take it personal LocoAko. I can imagine how big a shock it would be going to any city outside of the NE corridor when that is the only area you are familiar with. Cities up there are just a totally different beast.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. If you grow up in NYC (and love it) and have never really been outside of the NE corridor, there probably aren't many other cities in the US you are going to like besides Chicago and maybe SF. Every other large US city is pretty auto centric to some extent. I wouldn't take it personal LocoAko. I can imagine how big a shock it would be going to any city outside of the NE corridor when that is the only area you are familiar with. Cities up there are just a totally different beast.

Oh I know - I'm from NYC too. I think I've just adjusted after 2 years vs. the few days he was here. ;)

Oh I know - I'm from NYC too. I think I've just adjusted after 2 years vs. the few days he was here. ;)

Haha whoops! :tongue:

Being from Kansas City, the feel of OKC didn't really take any adjusting. But when I went to NYC for the first time, WOW. Talk about a surreal feeling. So much different than what I'm used to back home. I went to Philly not long after and it felt a lot like NYC, just on a smaller scale. At least in the Center City area I was staying in.

Other than that, I feel like most cities are more or less the same. Some are just bigger than others. There is always a built-up CBD, with a handful of cool neighborhoods immediately around it. This is usually boxed in by a bunch of interstates, and then it slowly starts sprawling outwards. Maybe my view is just too simplistic, idk.

But I digress, I'm getting off topic! :ot:

Haha whoops! :tongue:

Being from Kansas City, the feel of OKC didn't really take any adjusting. But when I went to NYC for the first time, WOW. Talk about a surreal feeling. So much different than what I'm used to back home. I went to Philly not long after and it felt a lot like NYC, just on a smaller scale. At least in the Center City area I was staying in.

Other than that, I feel like most cities are more or less the same. Some are just bigger than others. There is always a built-up CBD, with a handful of cool neighborhoods immediately around it. This is usually boxed in by a bunch of interstates, and then it slowly starts sprawling outwards. Maybe my view is just too simplistic, idk.

But I digress, I'm getting off topic! :ot:

Yep, all it takes is being a little open minded, which clearly it doesn't appear that LocoAko's friend was (no offense to him). There is more than one way to live in a city. I'll admit that I was a bit overwhelmed (if that's even the right word for it, haha) during my first visit to NYC as well and really didn't enjoy it that much for the first few days. I've gone back knowing what to expect and have thoroughly enjoyed every trip since. That sentiment goes both ways.

Here's a contrasting anecdote: One of my friend's from Dallas was in OKC for a Friday night a couple weeks ago (we went to Bricktown, Skinny Slim's, Urban Johnnie's, Plaza District during Live on the Plaza) and he couldn't quit talking about how much OKC has grown. He was blown away.

Met a couple from Dallas this weekend who were visting OKC for the first time ever. The guy's parents talked OKC up so much so he and his girlfriend decided to check it out. They absolutely loved it. They stopped by McNellies, painted at Wine & Palette, hung out in Bricktown, Deep Deuce, and the Plaza. They told me that they were "pleasantly surprised" with the city and the friendliness and willingness of people to help them find attractions. Keeping it on topic, she mentioned that she absolutely loved "how the downtown streets are all two way, instead of huge one way streets in Downtown Dallas." Thanks P180!

There were two HUGE banners on the south side of the Cox Center facing the arena.


Get at least a small part of your facts straight and you might actually engage people in meaningful discussion, although I'm not convinced that is your real intent.


So true!

The signs on the south side of the Cox Convention Center across from the Chesapeake Energy Arena were large enough that you could have been legally blind and read them.


http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif "Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.http://www.thunderfans.com/vforum/images/smilies/okc.gif

A couple of things here:

1. People have to know the wrestling tourney is in town in order to welcome them. I was unaware they were in town. Is that the fault of the city or the fault of the tourney's organizers? The fault can probably be shared somewhat but I wouldn't put the blame totally on OKC. I'm a sports fan (not really a wrestling fan) but I was unaware of it.

2. Calling OKC a big small town is fairly accurate and it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It feeling like a big small town is what appeals to a lot of people. OKC will never be Chicago or NY or SF. It's just that different things appeal to different people. OKC being the biggest small town is a selling point to some people and a deterrent to others. Just like someone may like Foo Fighters because they're loud but the next person may hate Foo Fighters because theyr'e loud. It's the same assessment but two different outlooks.

No offense, but maybe it is your own fault that you didn't know about it. And by that I mean that you didn't happen to be paying attention. The wrestling tournament was featured extensively in local sports reporting - both print and TV - and was nationally televised throughout. Furthermore, those of us in the tourism and hospitality business have been acutely aware of it for over a year and were regularly reminded of it by the OKC Convention and Visitors Bureau in meetings, via organizational bulletins, in repeated e-mail updates and blasts, via social media and even in personal e-mails, texts and phone calls. We were provided estimated attendance numbers, full session schedules, and other items to help in planning. The CVB had staff on-site during the entire tournament to direct patrons to restaurants and attractions.

Members of the CVB staff contacted me personally via text messages throughout the tournament to see how things were going in my neck of the woods, to advise of schedule changes and in general just to make sure things were going well and smoothly. I know that wrestling fans made it deep into the community, beyond just the surface-level tourism locales, into places like Plaza, Classen Curve and Midtown, and even into area malls and grocery stores. I know this both firsthand and via secondhand accounts.

The general public could have known about it well in advance simply by doing something as simple as subscribing to the Downtown OKC Inc newsletter (it was on the calendar prior to the event) or by paying attention to the Twitter or FB feeds of organizations like DOKC, the OKC CVB or others.

All of the feedback that I got from literally hundreds of visitors I interacted with was overwhelmingly positive, and the hospitality industry was indeed informed and anxiously awaiting their arrival. If a random restaurant here or there was unprepared that was probably more of a comment on that individual place than on the industry as a whole. If you weren't aware of the tournament, chalk it up to not being in the industry (I assume) and to the fact that there is so much going on in this city these days that it is hard to keep track unless you are specifically attuned to that event or industry.

Regarding the tournament, I remember thinking it was cool that we got it when it was announced a few years ago. Also in the lead up to it for the last couple weeks there have been tweets by hospitality and chamber folks.

Regarding Project 180, I attended a Jeff Speck webinar today, not that I haven't heard him speak on the topic several times, but his current presentation features Oklahoma City before and after Project 180. We've had enough P189 streets for enough years now that I'm starting to forget how things looked before P180. Holy crap the side-by-side pics of certain streets and intersections are astounding. And now we are an example for fixing streetscapes and walkability for cities around the country. I get that it's not perfect and that there's more to be done, but this is something to be proud of. Based on the small sampling I saw today, there are still a lot of screwed up cities out there as far as streets, streetscapes, and walkability. (Jeff has enough work to take him through retirement I think)

The work that has been completed for P180 is pretty great.

If you walk from one block that has been completed to another that hasn't been touched, it's a shocking contrast.

And of course, the complete makeover of the Myriad Gardens is also part of the project, it's really revolutionized that park, taking it from being almost deserted to being extremely active.


Although I've been critical in the past, it's only been from a reporting and accountability standpoint, not the work itself which I've always thought was amazing.

We are already forgetting how bad things were previously.

Regarding the tournament, I remember thinking it was cool that we got it when it was announced a few years ago. Also in the lead up to it for the last couple weeks there have been tweets by hospitality and chamber folks.

Regarding Project 180, I attended a Jeff Speck webinar today, not that I haven't heard him speak on the topic several times, but his current presentation features Oklahoma City before and after Project 180. We've had enough P189 streets for enough years now that I'm starting to forget how things looked before P180. Holy crap the side-by-side pics of certain streets and intersections are astounding. And now we are an example for fixing streetscapes and walkability for cities around the country. I get that it's not perfect and that there's more to be done, but this is something to be proud of. Based on the small sampling I saw today, there are still a lot of screwed up cities out there as far as streets, streetscapes, and walkability. (Jeff has enough work to take him through retirement I think)

Good point. Is there a link or somewhere that we could view the before and after?

Good point. Is there a link or somewhere that we could view the before and after?

Here's a link to the recording of the webinar:
Toward a More Walkable Colorado (https://codeptofla.adobeconnect.com/_a841431952/p98vzi2r36i/?launcher=false&fcsContent=true&pbMode=normal)

If you've seen Jeff speak, there's not much new probably, but personally, no matter how many times I hear him, I always learn a little something. The OKC part is like 20 or 25 minutes in.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/p180040814a.jpg



http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/p180040814b.jpg




http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/p180040814c.jpg




http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/p180040814d.jpg

Just saw that the City is putting out bids to redo all the P180 crosswalks that have looked terrible for years now.

The City had previously blamed bad choices by vendors for the problem; very interested to know exactly who is paying for this new work, especially since the City is bidding this out.

It would be nice to see the cross walks made of stone or something to ensure them being there for a long time

Yeah, seriously, that should be covered by the contractor or a performance bond. It has been made public that the contractor used incorrectly-formulated paint for the surface. That seems like a pretty clear-cut case in the City's favor. If that contractor isn't making it right I certainly hope as a taxpayer (and would expect) that the City sues to enforce the contract obligations. The MAPs 1 library had a similar situation and the city sued.

I wonder if retainage was held back on payments to the GC's (there have been several) that had crosswalks markings go bad on their phases.

Let's just say I have no trust in the budgeting and financial reporting on this project.

They never, ever report against budget. They just ask for approved spending in a continuous stream: This how much we have spent, this is how much money we have left. You can never tell the budgeted cost for the work left and thus have any clue where this project stands.

And I'm absolutely sure they do it this way on purpose so they don't have to deal with public outcry or tough questions from City Council. Just put up pretty photos in a Powerpoint presentation once every quarter or so and assure everyone all is well. Of course until it isn't, when something is cut or they will have to find "other funding sources", which just means they are over budget and want more tax dollars. Or in the case of Centennial Park, Larry Nichols kicks in and saves their tails. Several other park and public space projects were just quietly axed or drastically scaled back.


I simply can't believe projects are allowed to be run this way by the City and it's not a coincidence this one is going to only deliver about half of what was originally promised and years behind schedule.

Worse yet, nobody seems to have learned anything and I don't see anything changing.

Let's just say I have no trust in the budgeting and financial reporting on this project.

They never, ever report against budget. They just ask for approved spending in a continuous stream: This how much we have spent, this is how much money we have left. You can never tell the budgeted cost for the work left and thus have any clue where this project stands.

And I'm absolutely sure they do it this way on purpose so they don't have to deal with public outcry or tough questions from City Council. Just put up pretty photos in a Powerpoint presentation once every quarter or so and assure everyone all is well. Of course until it isn't, when something is cut or they will have to find "other funding sources", which just means they are over budget and want more tax dollars. Or in the case of Centennial Park, Larry Nichols kicks in and saves their tails. Several other park and public space projects were just quietly axed or drastically scaled back.


I simply can't believe projects are allowed to be run this way by the City and it's not a coincidence this one is going to only deliver about half of what was originally promised and years behind schedule.

Worse yet, nobody seems to have learned anything and I don't see anything changing.
If only we had a major newspaper that could investigate and report on such...

BTW, I'm not claiming corruption or anything of the like.

I get this is very complicated with loads of things that crop up and take more time and money.

BUT: 1) At least be honest about the situation along the way. 2) Set a bloody budget and report against it instead of constantly changing the numbers. and 3) Demonstrate you've learned and budgeted properly for what remains in terms of both money and time.


Of course none of this happens and thus nobody has any real idea of where the project stands. The crosswalk painting is a case in point... Why wasn't it done correctly to start? Why was this work allowed to sit in an embarrassing state for years? Are the vendors being held accountable? Who exactly is paying for the re-do? Etc., etc.

People act like this work is a pure gift from Devon, when in fact it is nothing more than tax dollars being diverted from schools, police, fire and other services. Why is it okay that this project is missing it's mark by almost 50% with absolutely no one held accountable or any changes made in how we budget, report and manage?

And why should we believe the project managers who claim all is well now when they said the same thing right up until the time they ran out of money and only came clean because they became so massively behind they had to slash almost half the work??


I can't think of another situation where managers of 9-figure projects are allowed to miss their targets by 50% without any consequences to them or the way the broader unit conducts business.

I can tell you that I've missed on multi-million construction projects by a few percentage points and there was absolute hell to pay. I not only had to explain every step of the way, I had to demonstrate in great detail what I planned to implement to avoid the problem in the future.

I'm not claiming corruption necessarily either, just gross mismanagement and insufficient accountability to the shareholders (i.e. taxpayers) that would get people fired in the private sector.

People act like this work is a pure gift from Devon, when in fact it is nothing more than tax dollars being diverted from schools, police, fire and other services. Why is it okay that this project is missing it's mark by almost 50% with absolutely no one held accountable or any changes made in how we budget, report and manage?

That is the primary issue - yes, areas other than those immediately surrounding Devon were supposed to benefit from P180. But even that was drastically reduced without any real accountability. There may have been perfectly reasonable explanations for reducing the area improved by P180, but the city gave up the ability to improve many other services that could have used those funds so failing to provide an full explanation is unacceptable.

To have some of these supposed "high quality" improvements turn out to be garbage and now the city paying to correct those shortcomings further reducing funds available for other needs is adding insult to injury.

It's also the downside of blind boosterism...

Everyone is SO excited about downtown and everything is SUCH an improvement that nobody wants to hear about and deal with cold hard facts.

Shadid was the first to call them on the carpet when they were halfway through the budget with only a quarter of the work done, and merely reported they had cut a bunch of segments. He challenged them about how they decided what stayed and what was cut, and both Couch and Wegner gave absolutely stunning non-answers. "Something had to come first". Ridiculous.

Then when Ed pressed, Mick quickly jumped in to defend and everyone just moved on to more pretty pictures on the next slide.


I watched all this on video and it scared the living crap out of me. Not only the mismanagement but the attitude towards any real questioning, which was not only well justified, it was also delivered with the utmost respect. This was long before all the friction between Shadid and the rest and no doubt fueled his drive to try and blow things up.

It really worries me that we don't have more checks and balances in our city government and in the local press. Heaven help the poor soul who actually challenges anything. (Not advocating Ed's campaign or more recent approach but I do understand his frustration.)

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7180/14012234474_abe978cee5_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nmdn8y)
Project 180 (https://flic.kr/p/nmdn8y) by lazio85 (https://www.flickr.com/people/77483833@N04/), on Flickr

Wasn't sure where else to place this, so I thought here would work.

Interesting article about street design, auto/pedestrian collisions and cause and effect: http://news.yahoo.com/cooper-s-story--a-preventable-traffic-tragedy-200552242.html

I'm not trying to take this thread off topic with this article. I just thought it was interesting for discussion. Mods, if it needs to be elsewhere, please move.

I posted that article in the friends for a better boulevard thread in the transportation sub forum.

Ed's scorched earth persuasions make him the absolute wrong messenger for any project even if if he occasionally gets it right. Let 's hope that someone that people will actually respect runs for his Ward 2 seat. I am tired of his bulls++t.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2895/14273410723_4de16e9bf3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nKhXJk)
Project 180 (https://flic.kr/p/nKhXJk) by lazio85 (https://www.flickr.com/people/77483833@N04/), on Flickr

Could we get a map or at least a list of all proposed work compared to what we will actually get?

Bright pink shows all completely deleted sections where no work will be performed.

Also:

Remaing EK Gaylord section is being funding by federal dollars; tax money over and above what was budgeted for Project 180.
SandRidge did all the sidewalk work surrounding their property on Robinson, RS Kerr, McGee and Broadway.
The sidewalk work in several sections -- including Robinson between Park and Main -- was drastically scaled back
Completion of Centennial Park required a substantial donation by Larry Nichols
Landscaping around City Hall was drastically scaled back
At least two civic plazas were completely deleted
New bus stops were eliminated
Standardized newspaper vending machines were cut
All crosswalks are being re-striped after wearing very badly; unclear on who is bearing cost


The deletions and adjustments represent at least 40% of the original scope; probably closer to 50%.

The original completion date was to have been 1/1/14. Even with only doing half of the proposed work, they will miss that date by at least three years.



http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/7932d1401034027-project-180-project180deleted.jpg

What are the major factors that explains why they missed the dates and have only been able to complete ~50% of the original job? Poor leadership? Underfunded project? Unforseen problems encountered during the work? Unrealistic original bid?

I spend a non-trivial amount of time in those pink areas and am actually okay with most of them not being done just yet (though I hope they are eventually). Not super happy about the value aspect, but major portions of those pink (NW quadrant in particular) areas won't/wouldn't get as much use for a bit. I would definitely like to see EKG get done as a next priority (that's happening with those grant funds, right?), as well as Robinson up to the law school (not independently but as new development fills in around the school, the streetscape should be done to match P180).

Why is majority of EKG deleted? The part that people actually walk on is deleted on there - and the part out towards I-40 where nobody walks is being federally funded?

Is it deleted for the eventual intermodal hub design?

That is so depressing Pete.

And...no one is being held to account. This is the one area Shadid was clearly in the right about. No one else at the city seems even moderately outraged by this.

Why is majority of EKG deleted? The part that people actually walk on is deleted on there - and the part out towards I-40 where nobody walks is being federally funded?

Is it deleted for the eventual intermodal hub design?


It was completely deleted when they announced being way over budget.

A small section was added back only because they received some federal tax dollars totally independent from their budget (TIF).


It really is unbelievable that no one seems to care about all this. Basically, the way the project managers have presented information all the way along has been so obtuse and outright misleading that it's almost impossible to track properly; and I'm sure that was the exact intent.

That is so depressing Pete.

And...no one is being held to account. This is the one area Shadid was clearly in the right about. No one else at the city seems even moderately outraged by this.

Not so fast. Shadid has been praising Eric Wenger as the "best placemaking public works director in OKC history."

EDITED: He may be a "placemaker" but he isn't a "platemaker."

This will go down as one of the biggest blunders in Oklahoma City history. The amount of time & money wasted on this project is nearly unprecedented.

I really like the work that has been done.

I don't even mind they are so far over budget and have missed deadlines by years.

What bothers me most is the lack of honesty about it and a deliberate campaign to cover up and gloss over. But you have to give them credit... It's been highly effective.

The ROI, other than making one way streets 2 way streets wasn't worth it IMO. I don't think the visual appearance is that much of an improvement. It is an improvement, but very minimal based on the investment. How much exactly have they gone over budget?

They are limited to the $160 million from the Devon TIF and of course a big chunk of that was spent on the Myriad Gardens.

They went over budget on the gardens (even after cutting several features) and then went way over on all the street segments. So, they merely cut half the work.

P180 was worth it for the Gardens improvements alone. Hate that money and time was wasted, but given a choice with all factors known, I say we still do it as I'm not sure the area around the park would be as vibrant as it is now without these changes...

People have already forgotten how awful many of the streets and streetscapes were. If someone left OKC 5 years ago and came back today I think they would be much more appreciative of what actually has been done. That said, I echo Pete regarding the disgust with the lack of transparency.

People have already forgotten how awful many of the streets and streetscapes were. If someone left OKC 5 years ago and came back today I think they would be much more appreciative of what actually has been done. That said, I echo Pete regarding the disgust with the lack of transparency.

I agree. And I also agree with Pete. It would be nice if someone would just fess up. No biggie. Everyone makes mistakes. It would be refreshing if city leaders could own up to their shortcomings. Most people are forgiving of honest public officials.

People have already forgotten how awful many of the streets and streetscapes were. If someone left OKC 5 years ago and came back today I think they would be much more appreciative of what actually has been done. That said, I echo Pete regarding the disgust with the lack of transparency.

You nailed it. Some of our posters have very short memories if they're unimpressed by the P180 work that has actually been done compared to what we did have.

Very short memories? LOL! Since when is 5+ years short? "work that has actually been done" is now a bunch of half torn up streets, and its been like that the entire time.

can someone put together some before and after pictures?

P180 is awesome and a disaster at the same time. They did nothing, NOTHING, to integrate the MAPS 3 streetcar. Despite numerous meetings, they absolutely refused to modify their schedule to incorporate the streetcar into the project. The only benefit to the streetcar in this project is that we know were a significant number of the utilities are. That is about 10 - 15 million in exploratory costs that we are going to save on. However, the saving that could have been had amount to piling up a few million in the middle of a P180 street and setting it on fire.

Plus, there are areas, EK Gaylord, around St. Joseph's Old Cathedral, and better connections to H&8th that really needed new sidewalks and pedestrian enhancements. I fear that when this project is done, there will not be the political will to finish it. And quite frankly, they ought to use the template and do the rest of downtown. 6th - 13th street, Core to Shore, and other areas for example. There are fewer utilities in these outlying areas and virtually no basements extending under sidewalks due to the difference between the core and the downtown "fringe". 13th to I-40, Classen to I-235 should all be P180 quality streets with narrower widths and pedestrian amenities imhop. The width of 4th street is a pedestrian travesty alone. Plus, all the remaining one way streets south of the Boulevard should be converted to two way streets and full four-way stops.

All that BS about "we have to finish P180 before 2014 and can't wait for the streetcar!"

So, they rushed to do streets that will now be torn up again while others won't be finished for long after the streetcar lines are in.


An absolute masterclass in bad planning.

I can't believe anybody is still defending the work that has been done on this project. Sure it is better than what we started with, but are you just gonna ignore that this will take almost a half a decade longer than it was supposed to & they only finished half the work? "Better than crappy makes us happy". As previously noted, the fact that they had to rush to start even though they knew they would later have to tear the streets up again for the street car is just a complete summation of this entire project. The one time they decided to hustle & rush during the entire thing. :-/.

Who was in charge of the project planning? Do they have any training in process improvement AT ALL? This was worse planning than the new boulevard.

*edited to remove rude statement.

Don't forget the new crosswalks that were painted are peeling and fading rather quickly due to some bad formulated paint. Isn't the city picking up the bill to correct all of these at no consequence to the original contractor?