We hired Corky from Life Goes On to coordinate our projects.

Installing street car rails is minimal impact on existing road surfaces. But yes it does make sense to hold off on that area.

Does that include when they have to relocate utilities etc?

Does that include when they have to relocate utilities etc?

That's called bad timing with regard to how these projects should have been coordinated around eachother, but no, the city had to do Project 180/2/2 long before...

Project 180 streetscaping completion delayed again
by Brian Brus
The Journal Record
Published: July 5th, 2013

OKLAHOMA CITY – The conclusion to downtown Project 180 streetscaping isn’t likely until much later than initially projected, now estimated for early 2015, almost seven years after it was approved, Oklahoma City officials said recently.

Just six months ago, city officials told The Journal Record that work would be done by now, and at that time work was already six months behind. Half a year before that, officials also announced delays.

City Hall is down to the final two groupings of construction related to Project 180, coordinator Shannon Cox said. Project groupings one through five are mostly complete in the sense that traffic is flowing smoothly on new streets, she said; however, elements such as streetlights and landscaping are still being put in place.

Project 180 is the name of a comprehensive, $140 million streetscaping project intended to change the face of the downtown business district. Everything between buildings is being renovated, including sidewalks, lighting, signage, benches and trees. One-way streets have already been changed to bidirectional traffic and parking is still being converted to parallel curbside spaces.

The total cost of work is being funded through revenues collected from a tax increment finance district that the City Council approved in 2008. At that time, officials announced that Project 180 would definitely disrupt life downtown for several years, although they also said attempts would be made to keep those challenges limited overall by grouping them by region.

City leaders made sure that much of the work was finished about the same time Devon’s corporate headquarters opened for business in 2012. The follow-up has dragged out longer than expected.

Cox and others have said a primary reason for delays has been unforeseen messiness in the below-ground infrastructure such as misplaced utility cables. They’ve learned from earlier experiences, however, and the pacing of the final two project groupings will be a little slower and more definite with fewer noticeable disruptions, she said. “We don’t want to do what we’ve done in the past,” she said.

The sixth grouping involves the streets primarily around the SandRidge Energy corporate offices, with some construction along E.K. Gaylord Boulevard near Sheridan Avenue.

The seventh and final grouping is focused primarily on Park Avenue between Hudson and Broadway avenues, as well as nearby portions of Robert S. Kerr and Harvey avenues.

“There aren’t good answers; there’s only less bad answers,” City Manager Jim Couch said to the disruptions caused by such a massive undertaking.

“At this point, let’s finish what we have and give downtown a little bit of a rest before we move on to the next phase. It’s been pretty hectic for several years,” Couch said. “Let’s take a breath here before we go forward.”

When asked to put that break in perspective, Couch cited all the work done on project groupings one through five, the complete remodeling of Centennial Park and Myriad Garden.

Couch also said work delays are not caused by finances.

“We have a plan in place. We have plenty of money in the budget to finance it. We got 80 percent of the projects done. Risk has been mitigated. And we have permanent financing in place,” he said. “And we’ve got one heck of an interest rate on that. So it’s definitely not about money.”

Pete: When did the money problem get solved? Couch acts like it was never a problem...

OKCisOK4me: that is what the City claimed, but in reality it just wasn't the case. The City knew Project 180 and MAPS 3 were both in play. When MAPS 3 passed an immediate moritorium on Project 180 should have been put into place to make sure that all cost efficencies could be maximized. But they proceeded full-steam ahead as if each was operating in a vacuum.

I have to admit, I got a good chuckle when I read Mr. Couch's comments that 'we got 80 percent of the projects done'. Absolutely ignoring the fact that half the P180 plan was shelved. The truthful figure is more like 40%.

Pete: When did the money problem get solved? Couch acts like it was never a problem...

It was solved when they cut almost half the amount of work they had previously promised.

They never, ever report against a budget or timeline, merely keep moving both.

Also, doing only a fraction of what was proposed, they still will be at least two years over their promised completion date -- and it will probably be well more than that.

Pete: thats what I thought...Mr. Couch has proven himself as someone that needs to be replaced. Unfortunately, the Council seems quite happy with him, not only keeping him employed but giving him rises etc. We need to make the CIty Manager an elected position where he is directly accountable to the citizens.

Bid package 6A is out for bid, here is the description of the streets involved. Currently set to bid August 27th, but if it's like any other project, it'll have at least one addendum pushing the date back a week or more.


City of Oklahoma City Downtown Streetscape Project - Bid Package 6A, Dean A, McGee Avenue from Robinson Ave. to Broadway Ave., NW 4th Street and Robinson Avenue Intersection Robinson Avenue from Park Ave, to Dean A. McGee Ave., Robert S. Kerr Avenue from Harvey Ave. to Broadway Ave.

Pete: thats what I thought...Mr. Couch has proven himself as someone that needs to be replaced. Unfortunately, the Council seems quite happy with him, not only keeping him employed but giving him rises etc. We need to make the CIty Manager an elected position where he is directly accountable to the citizens.

I don't think that's the right idea, because we know that professional city management (which Tulsa for example lacks) is much more effective than political city management. We elect the mayor and council to lead, they hire the city manager and staff to manage.

The system should be working this out. Couch's resignation should have been requested at least 4 years ago. Now we need the mayor and council to lead, but they probably won't because it's much easier to pretend a problem doesn't exist as long as it's not being called out. This council is pretty well-insulated from word on the street (which is what happens when city councilmen represent more people than a lot of state legislators).

I don't think that's the right idea, because we know that professional city management (which Tulsa for example lacks) is much more effective than political city management. We elect the mayor and council to lead, they hire the city manager and staff to manage.

The system should be working this out. Couch's resignation should have been requested at least 4 years ago. Now we need the mayor and council to lead, but they probably won't because it's much easier to pretend a problem doesn't exist as long as it's not being called out. This council is pretty well-insulated from word on the street (which is what happens when city councilmen represent more people than a lot of state legislators).

Good comments, Spartan. I concur.

I don't think that's the right idea, because we know that professional city management (which Tulsa for example lacks) is much more effective than political city management. We elect the mayor and council to lead, they hire the city manager and staff to manage.

The system should be working this out. Couch's resignation should have been requested at least 4 years ago. Now we need the mayor and council to lead, but they probably won't because it's much easier to pretend a problem doesn't exist as long as it's not being called out. This council is pretty well-insulated from word on the street (which is what happens when city councilmen represent more people than a lot of state legislators).

Agreed. We really need Mayor Mick and the council to step up and correct this.

Look at the big picture. OKC has a huge budget, probably as big as some small states. Couch's number one job is probably fiduciary in nature. From that standpoint, the Council is probably pleased with how he performs in that area. Also, he has proven to be a tough cookie who can get things done, regardless of how we may view the results. Depending upon what is valued by the Council (and business community, another powerful entity), Couch may be scoring very high in his job performance. That he doesn't always consider nuanced urban planning in his approach may not be any kind of factor in how his job performance is evaluated.

The role of city manager obviously is evolving beyond someone who keeps the trains running on time and keeps the bills paid, but from those two perspectives, Couch could be viewed as doing a very good job.

Obviously we would like to see Couch evolve into a more sophisticated city manager who not only handles the tough negotiations and the budget well, but who also embraces solid urban planning.

Bid package 6A is out for bid, here is the description of the streets involved. Currently set to bid August 27th, but if it's like any other project, it'll have at least one addendum pushing the date back a week or more.

So, 6B will probably be Main from Robinson to Broadway and EK Gaylor from Reno to Main? That is what the map from post 1758 by Pete shows.

Wenger made a recent presentation to the Economic Development Trust and in typical style did not provide the Powerpoint in advance so I had to watch the video then take a bad screen capture of the latest phasing map.

6A: Yellow (McGee, Robinson, Kerr) Start construction Oct. '13
6B: Red (EKG, Main) Start construction early '14
7: Brown (Park, Kerr, Hudson, Broadway) Start construction late '14
Complete: Blue

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p18073013.jpg

He said rather than tear up an entire stretch at one time, they will do 2 or 3 blocks at a time which will make it less invasive but take longer.

When pressed, he also said this probably won't be complete until 2017.

I'm telling you right now the EKG stretch is going to be an absolute nightmare for whoever wins that contract.

BTW, a big chuck of Package 6A is around the SandRidge complex and they have already redone all their sidewalks, so it would just be the streets and the opposite side sidewalks (another cost savings for this project).

Also, Mark Beffort had said when Robinson is redone in front of Leadership Square, they will take that opportunity to redo the pavers in the LS plaza.

I took a picture of that area last year and showed that it's in really bad shape. I bet they go with the same pavers being used throughout P180, which would help unite the plaza with the rest of the hardscape around it:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ls2.jpg

It'll be a nightmare for the upcoming basketball season too.

I'm telling you right now the EKG stretch is going to be an absolute nightmare for whoever wins that contract.

I think it will be like when they closed it off to tear down the old I-40, but just for a longer time. The CCC parking traffic will be terrible since everyone will be coming out of one side instead of two. They will probably do Gaylord from Reno to Sheridan and then Sheridan to Main later. I would hope they wouldn't do it all at once.

I think it will be like when they closed it off to tear down the old I-40, but just for a longer time. The CCC parking traffic will be terrible since everyone will be coming out of one side instead of two. They will probably do Gaylord from Reno to Sheridan and then Sheridan to Main later. I would hope they wouldn't do it all at once.

Also they will be starting on the railroad bridge for the bouelvard by mid 2014 and be building the bouelvard/EK Gaylord intersection by 2015.

I think it will be like when they closed it off to tear down the old I-40, but just for a longer time. The CCC parking traffic will be terrible since everyone will be coming out of one side instead of two. They will probably do Gaylord from Reno to Sheridan and then Sheridan to Main later. I would hope they wouldn't do it all at once.

I wasn't even referring to the traffic. I'm talking about the construction and utility relocates. The utility relocates along Sheridan were insane, and nothing in the ground hardly matched the atlas (that's tough to pin on anyone, though, just a byproduct of the business).

I wasn't even referring to the traffic. I'm talking about the construction and utility relocates. The utility relocates along Sheridan were insane, and nothing in the ground hardly matched the atlas (that's tough to pin on anyone, though, just a byproduct of the business).

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

Well put Sid

Yeah, this is one of those things cities only want to do once a century. This utility changes and full-depth rebuilding of the streets is about as complex of a street project as you can make. I do feel sorry for those directly impacted but am glad we are doing it now before 30k more people live downtown. What's happening now will literally last a lifetime.

I've certainly been critical of the management (budget and timelines) of this project but I should say I've been thrilled with the finished product.

As Sid mentioned, they are putting in full-depth concrete streets and completely redoing the sidewalks and landscaping. It's so nice that it's a bit shocking to walk from a block that is complete to one that has yet to be done. And, this work should last a long, long time.

I'm really looking forward to the final piece of Robinson being completed, as IMO that street is the centerpiece of all of downtown.

The newly painted streets have really not worn well. i know they are not going to last forever, but it seems awfully soon to need to repaint.

^

You mean the cross walks?

Looking at the bid form right now, outside of the actual new streets, there isn't much storm drainage or sanitary sewer improvements, but there is 2000' of 20" new waterline going in.

I don't think that's the right idea, because we know that professional city management (which Tulsa for example lacks) is much more effective than political city management. We elect the mayor and council to lead, they hire the city manager and staff to manage.

The system should be working this out. Couch's resignation should have been requested at least 4 years ago. Now we need the mayor and council to lead, but they probably won't because it's much easier to pretend a problem doesn't exist as long as it's not being called out. This council is pretty well-insulated from word on the street (which is what happens when city councilmen represent more people than a lot of state legislators).
But that is the problem, the system isn't working it out. We are in agreement that Couch should have been replaced years ago (starting with his mismanagement of the original MAPS). Instead of replacing incompetent folks, they keep giving them raises and promotions. As you correctly point out, since the Mayor & Council won't lead on the issue, what is the answer? Mayors and Council members come and go (so replacing them doesn't seem to work) as one of the constants with OKC has been Mr. Couch. I also agree that a professional city manager would be ideal but we don't seem to have that.



Yeah, this is one of those things cities only want to do once a century. This utility changes and full-depth rebuilding of the streets is about as complex of a street project as you can make. I do feel sorry for those directly impacted but am glad we are doing it now before 30k more people live downtown. What's happening now will literally last a lifetime.
Or at least until the next MAPS or Bond project requires them to tear everything up again. Or due to shoddy work it has to be redone.




I've certainly been critical of the management (budget and timelines) of this project but I should say I've been thrilled with the finished product.
….
Even when you compare it with what was pitched/promised? Look back at the renderings in the beginning of the thread. If we had gotten anything close to what was promised I would agree. But once again, the City over promises and under delivers. You have even pointed out that they keep moving the goal posts, redefining what is a successful completion.

First off, how often is an artist rendering ever what you get in the end? Never...quick taking them for exact replicas.


Or at least until the next MAPS or Bond project requires them to tear everything up again. Or due to shoddy work it has to be redone.

I take offense to this statement. I don't work for a contractor but have professional relationships with many in OKC and have supplied a good chunk of material used in already completed phases of Project 180. There are people and crews more than qualified to do these jobs and have dealt with incredible hurdles and unexpected obstacles to give you and everyone else a revamped downtown look. I'm sorry that grumpy folks like yourself just automatically assume its a ****ty job.

pahdz:

1) I am sorry you took offense.
2) As I said in the post, if we got anything even remotely to what was pitched in the renderings, I would be happy. We didn't. I'm not.
3) That presumption is based on the history that has this annoying tendency to keep repeating itself. I hope you are correct, only time will tell. But if you need an indicator about P180, just review the 37 pages of this thread

I wish I had the time to go back through 37 pages, but are you saying there are multiple instances of shoddy work shown on this thread?

pahdz: the short answer is yes.

It also depends on what your definition of shoddy work is, but the longer answer is the City has a long history of over-promising and under delivering on projects. Sometimes they don't get built at all. Other times they get built but not as promised, on time & on budget. There have been numerous missteps chronicled in this thread on P180 (Pete, the owner of the site has chronicled many of them). Only time will tell if it has to be done again in a few years because of it.

And to clarify the expectations of renderings = finished projects, as I posted in the Arena thread, for the most part we got what was pitched in the renderings of those renovations (at least when it comes to the exterior, with the notable exception of the huge video board that was supposed to have been over the new main entrance).

Cross walks, street lanes, bike lanes, etc.

I do wish they would at least paint the bike lanes as they announced they would. It would provide a greater degree of safety for cyclists downtown.

But that is the problem, the system isn't working it out. We are in agreement that Couch should have been replaced years ago (starting with his mismanagement of the original MAPS). Instead of replacing incompetent folks, they keep giving them raises and promotions. As you correctly point out, since the Mayor & Council won't lead on the issue, what is the answer? Mayors and Council members come and go (so replacing them doesn't seem to work) as one of the constants with OKC has been Mr. Couch. I also agree that a professional city manager would be ideal but we don't seem to have that.





Or at least until the next MAPS or Bond project requires them to tear everything up again. Or due to shoddy work it has to be redone.




Even when you compare it with what was pitched/promised? Look back at the renderings in the beginning of the thread. If we had gotten anything close to what was promised I would agree. But once again, the City over promises and under delivers. You have even pointed out that they keep moving the goal posts, redefining what is a successful completion.

As horrible as u feel this City, the Government and said employees are, what keeps you from loading the Uhaul and leaving for Greener Pastures.

I do wish they would at least paint the bike lanes as they announced they would. It would provide a greater degree of safety for cyclists downtown.

They have, at least on Walker.

Even when you compare it with what was pitched/promised? Look back at the renderings in the beginning of the thread. If we had gotten anything close to what was promised I would agree. But once again, the City over promises and under delivers. You have even pointed out that they keep moving the goal posts, redefining what is a successful completion.

Have you been downtown? I just don't understand how the renderings haven't equaled reality. Were you expecting new mature trees from the start?

Maybe not the trees yet but surely they could have used some paint for the road markings that doesn't erode so easily?

again, we're talking about paint (something that can cheaply be redone, and would have to be redone periodically regardless), and what, some crooked pavers?

You guys are missing the point, and the efforts that really go into this. New roads and utility relocations are the big improvement here, but all anyone seems to care about are pavers, trees (they have to start somewhere and grow!), and other items that are peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

I was surprised by the effort that went into the sidewalks and tree "wells". Someone posted a photo several months ago that was very interesting. Those items should last longer than our previous attempts due to the attention to this detail in the P180 plan. I like the overall result of the completed areas a lot. My main gripe is we aren't getting anywhere near 180 acres of renovated streetscape and the poor coordination with other projects.

I was surprised by the effort that went into the sidewalks and tree "wells". Someone posted a photo several months ago that was very interesting. Those items should last longer than our previous attempts due to the attention to this detail in the P180 plan. I like the overall result of the completed areas a lot. My main gripe is we aren't getting anywhere near 180 acres of renovated streetscape and the poor coordination with other projects.

Credit the Landscape Architecture firm for that. Bringing them in was fantastic (and all thanks to Devon).

I don't see poor coordination, unless you are a streetcar advocate. Even then, the potential disruption is overstated. Yes, parts of 180 could have waited, but the streets would also have needed a lot of interim maintenance. They were getting pretty bad. We aren't getting 180 acres partially because Dowell complained, and partially because of the costs associated with utilities, and partially because construction costs ticked up as the economy picked up.

Yeah I realize the reduction in renovated area was caused by several factors but hopefully as funds become available more areas will be brought up to the standard.

My primary concern about coordination of projects is EK Gaylord in front of the Santa Fe station. There are always other factors that impact these things, and IIRC the timeline for Gaylord has something to do with availablity of federal funding assistance. But since that street is so busy, it seems like it would be better to forego federal funds in this case and only cause the disruption once. Then the streetcar will likely require significant adjustments to Gaylord in fron of the station and it is likley it would cost nearly as much to demolish recently completed work as the federal assistance. BUT - if the Gaylord plans in the near future will take care of things like utility relocation, etc - you know, the hard stuff - then it might be worth doing it now with the additional assistance. None of this stuff is as simple as it appears though.

Look at the big picture. OKC has a huge budget, probably as big as some small states. Couch's number one job is probably fiduciary in nature. From that standpoint, the Council is probably pleased with how he performs in that area. Also, he has proven to be a tough cookie who can get things done, regardless of how we may view the results. Depending upon what is valued by the Council (and business community, another powerful entity), Couch may be scoring very high in his job performance. That he doesn't always consider nuanced urban planning in his approach may not be any kind of factor in how his job performance is evaluated.

The role of city manager obviously is evolving beyond someone who keeps the trains running on time and keeps the bills paid, but from those two perspectives, Couch could be viewed as doing a very good job.

Obviously we would like to see Couch evolve into a more sophisticated city manager who not only handles the tough negotiations and the budget well, but who also embraces solid urban planning.

This is spot on. Thanks for adding some reason to our renewed bitter calls for resignation. I can say though his allies, while close and constant, are getting fewer in number.

I hope you are right on that one Sid and think you probably are. Maybe it will turn out ok because of the time difference in the project schedules. The worst case scenario would be for the P180 work to be finished for less than a year and then begin wholesale demolition for the streetcar construction. I am certainly hoping for the best and think if the earlier Gaylord project clears obstacles for future construction, then it is probably worth it.

Yeah I realize the reduction in renovated area was caused by several factors but hopefully as funds become available more areas will be brought up to the standard.

My primary concern about coordination of projects is EK Gaylord in front of the Santa Fe station. There are always other factors that impact these things, and IIRC the timeline for Gaylord has something to do with availablity of federal funding assistance. But since that street is so busy, it seems like it would be better to forego federal funds in this case and only cause the disruption once. Then the streetcar will likely require significant adjustments to Gaylord in fron of the station and it is likley it would cost nearly as much to demolish recently completed work as the federal assistance. BUT - if the Gaylord plans in the near future will take care of things like utility relocation, etc - you know, the hard stuff - then it might be worth doing it now with the additional assistance. None of this stuff is as simple as it appears though.

Wenger did say in the OKCEDT presentation that the reason they split Package 6 into A and B is that they wanted to make sure and tie in the EKG work (which is in B) and make sure it's coordinated with Santa Fe Station and the transit hub.

Obviously the streetcar work won't be done in conjunction with the EKG construction but they are making a special point to allow for it.

Or, so Wenger says.

I believe I was told construction would begin this fall on EKG. I think the time difference is significant enough that this is probably the best for both projects.

I don't see how that's possible unless they plan on letting 6B shortly after 6A bids. Is that the plan?

I don't see how that's possible unless they plan on letting 6B shortly after 6A bids. Is that the plan?

Yes but Wenger said they don't even have a specific timeline yet.

Sorry if I missed this. What is the plan for Gaylord, are they keeping it 6 lane or narrowing it? any new changes?

I believe I was told construction would begin this fall on EKG. I think the time difference is significant enough that this is probably the best for both projects.

the much bigger issue with EKG is making sure it is very very pedestrian friendly in front of the sante fe station

They are awaiting final renderings from Santec I believe. They'll be given more than one option as I understand it.will be interesting to see. Seems like it will be hard to keep six lanes and add improvements as there is almost no room on that street. If they make a hub along that street too, it won't work to well with mass transit either if it's six lanes.

the much bigger issue with EKG is making sure it is very very pedestrian friendly in front of the sante fe station


Yeah. That's why I've been out there so much. I feel confident that is PW's goal as well.

That is the primary reason I was concerned. If nearly total demolition Gaylord in front of Santa Fe is necessary in the near term for making the hub operational then we might have a problem. But if PW is incorporating some of that into the P180 work I think it will be fine. Not to mention actually coordinating projects!

The newly painted streets have really not worn well. i know they are not going to last forever, but it seems awfully soon to need to repaint.

With all of the inclement weather in the winter and the scraping of the streets the newer paints for streets do not last as long as the old stuff does. Unfortunately due to costs it is no longer prudent to do the glass beaded burn on striping.

I agree that it is bad.

With all of the inclement weather in the winter and the scraping of the streets the newer paints for streets do not last as long as the old stuff does. Unfortunately due to costs it is no longer prudent to do the glass beaded burn on striping.

I agree that it is bad.

That makes sense. Would it be possible to use stained concrete for crosswalk and other markings? It would definitely be more time consuming and expensive initially, but if it were a truly permanent solution it might be worth it. It may even be possible to make the actual markings in a controlled factory environment. Cut square "wells" for blocks of concrete with the marking embedded in the concrete itself. Then design something to fill the edge gaps to prevent cracking, chipping, or otherwise degrading from traffic passing over.

Here's a better map of the most current phasing.

BTW, Shannon Cox who works for the City and is P180 coordinator is fantastic. If you ever have any questions about this project, she's very helpful.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p1808213.jpg

Is there a place where I can find the actual bid documents for these packages?

I was told that the paint is a known issue. It was a failure at the contractor level and is being addressed. It isn't going to be left like that at all is what I was told. IIRC, it was a failure to prime the surface before it was painted. So there is some correcting that is going to have to be done by the contractors it sounds like. It's been a while since I was told that and I hope I got my facts straight but suffice it to say, the paint issue isn't some mystery to the City and its not like they were pleased with the job done. Apparently, it will be fixed.
I've been watching with interest as the crosswalk paint chipped up (starting last year at EKG & Reno) and thinking "surely this is covered by contractor warranty..."

Some photos of the work done around SandRidge:



http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p1808513a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p1808513b.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p1808513c.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/wikiphotos/p1808513d.jpg

Is there a place where I can find the actual bid documents for these packages?

what are you looking for in particular?

It's nice that we're out of the terrible drought, or the greenery would be dead trees walking.

what are you looking for in particular?

Plans, mainly.