Course the problem with an ever changing construction chaos, it is hard to tell from one day to the next which set of challenges one is going to be facing.

Those darn wheels. They mess everything up.

Hey, at least have courage to call out Larry directly. And see if most people in this city think Larry has been very good for this city or are bitter.
OK -
Larry Nichols - do I need to turn around three times as I worship his majesty?
Bitter - maybe, plus tired of hearing how wonderful he's been for OKC. Does anyone truly think his motives are purely altruistic?

Do you honestly think Project 180 would have been such a C-F if King Nichols hadn't insisted it be on his timeline, for completion of his personal Mahal?
Coffee's on...smell it?

Course the problem with an ever changing construction chaos, it is hard to tell from one day to the next which set of challenges one is going to be facing.

Unless you're dealing with Project 180/2=90 because it's the same thing every day, followed by every week, followed by every month because there's only two guys working each particular stretch and one of them is getting paid to read a Danielle Steel romance novel.

"Most of the people in this city" don't know squat about Larry Nichols other than his ties to this giant new skyscraper sticking out of downtown. AS IF the average person could actually call out Larry Nichols, let alone be listened to. Get real. Remember, money walks and us little people aren't worth anything; we just talk. *rolls eyes

Hey Rover, remind me again what there isn't to be bitter about in regards to Project 180? Try to exclude any streets that surround the Devon complex or the MBG.

OK -
Larry Nichols - do I need to turn around three times as I worship his majesty?
Bitter - maybe, plus tired of hearing how wonderful he's been for OKC. Does anyone truly think his motives are purely altruistic?

Do you honestly think Project 180 would have been such a C-F if King Nichols hadn't insisted it be on his timeline, for completion of his personal Mahal?
Coffee's on...smell it?

I believe if you had a $750,000.00 investment at stake, you'd like to have infrastructure surrounding it first class as well. Put yourself in his shoes and see how you'd look at the situation. I can't see how anyone in their right mind can blame the person responsible for expediting the improvements by a financial loan as the villian for the lack of either incompetence from the city administration standpoint or from the untimely completion of segments by the construction companies involved. I understand that the sidewalks and streets were impassable at times, but I can't blame Mr Nichols for that, it lies back on the City and or the contractor.

Considering your post history in this thread, I think you would have been well aware of the challenge to be faced. I hope it was a good show! ;-)

It was an excellent show and worth the effort. I have been well aware of what's happening but don't get to experience it in person very often. The continually changing street and lane closures aren't easy if you don't see them frequently. I made several laps around the area trying to get where I wanted to get.

A recent photo of the progress at Bicentennial Park:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/422329_505385519478076_36511317_n.jpg

What an atrocity.

Unfortunately it looks exactly like that in person. Maybe in ten years I'll change my mind but not so far.

OK -
Larry Nichols - do I need to turn around three times as I worship his majesty?
Bitter - maybe, plus tired of hearing how wonderful he's been for OKC. Does anyone truly think his motives are purely altruistic?

Do you honestly think Project 180 would have been such a C-F if King Nichols hadn't insisted it be on his timeline, for completion of his personal Mahal?
Coffee's on...smell it?

they did pay for it

Usually works in progress don't look very good. Glad to see people are waiting until Bicentennial Park is finished before forming an opinion of what it looks like.

OK -
Larry Nichols - do I need to turn around three times as I worship his majesty?
Bitter - maybe, plus tired of hearing how wonderful he's been for OKC. Does anyone truly think his motives are purely altruistic?

Do you honestly think Project 180 would have been such a C-F if King Nichols hadn't insisted it be on his timeline, for completion of his personal Mahal?
Coffee's on...smell it?

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that Devon has said it wasn't their timeline, it was the City's. And knowing City Hall like I do, I would find that plausible.

What an atrocity.

While I think this park did not need to be re-done (the money could have been spent to finish more streets), there is an amazing trend on this site to judge half finished projects. It seems that lately these judgments have almost always been taken back once the final project is finished. While I disagreed with this project getting money, let's withhold judgment until it's further along or done.

While I think this park did not need to be re-done (the money could have been spent to finish more streets), there is an amazing trend on this site to judge half finished projects. It seems that lately these judgments have almost always been taken back once the final project is finished. While I disagreed with this project getting money, let's withhold judgment until it's further along or done.

Agreed. Having high standards is good, but the hand wringing on here has been a bit ridiculous as of late.

While I'm a bit upset all those trees were removed, if its anything like the renderings I think this will be a pretty nice park. Given the fact that the Myriad Gardens was done so well I don't see why people feel the need to be so negative about this.

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that Devon has said it wasn't their timeline, it was the City's. And knowing City Hall like I do, I would find that plausible.

IIRC, it was the City saying it was Devon's idea as to the timeline of Project 180 and the inability to alter it for consideration of the MAPS 3 Streetcars etc...which is true???

LN - I want the streets done around my building first
City - Okay, here is the timeline
LN - Great, get started
City - We are done around your building LN, but we spent all the money doing it
LN - Not my problem, I didn't approve your timeline or budget

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that Devon has said it wasn't their timeline, it was the City's. And knowing City Hall like I do, I would find that plausible.

I don't just want to bury the hatchet with you, but I also think you're very right. I think we had a case of the tail wagging the dog to an extent, as the only person who ever claimed it was at Devon's insistence was Jim Couch, and we know how that usually goes.

I do think Larry Nichols is committed to growing OKC. He's already fabulously wealthy and Devon is very stable, unlike it's magnanimous relative up on 63rd.

Steve said he sat in on all or most of the Devon implementation committee meetings and that it was definitely not Larry Nichols pushing the timeline; that it was the City (Couch et al) that was driving all the schedules and budgets.

I believe this is yet another instance of Couch claiming he was under an outside constraint that turned out to be completely of his own doing.

It is correct; from all my interviews, meetings I attended, Devon was not and did not push for all of Project 180 to be done by 2012 or 2014. Instead, they just wanted the streets immediately surrounding their campus and I suspect the gardens done by the opening of Devon Energy Center. The original timeline of getting all of Project 180 complete by 2014 was pushed by Oklahoma City Public Works and the City Manager's office.

LN - I want the streets done around my building first
City - Okay, here is the timeline
LN - Great, get started
City - We are done around your building LN, but we spent all the money doing it
LN - Not my problem, I didn't approve your timeline or budget

^disconnect with what's really going on....

I will say it has a certain odor of tackiness to dwell on baseless criticism of Larry Nichols. I roll my eyes about as hard at that as I do Skip Kelly and Pat Ryan criticizing us lowly citizens for daring to "jump to conclusions" about boulevard, convention center, etc etc.. and then criticizing us for being too late in wanting a public discussion.

There's no question that Nichols is one of the key stakeholders in downtown, and he does wield a lot of influence. In my experience he almost always wields his influence for "good" and rarely is he at odds with any potential "urbanist agenda" if you will. I will gladly "offer up some names on a silver platter for people to lambaste" (but please do so tactfully), but Nichols is in no way one of them. If you want to bring about some desperately-needed accountability, it's important to understand who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, so to speak, before you yourself do more harm than good. No good is done by attacking Larry Nichols without any justification.

This is the article I was thinking of by our favorite Oklahoman reporter...

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/12/04/project-180-streetcars-deadlines/
CRITICISM, CONFUSION ARISE OVER DOWNTOWN PROJECTS
By Steve Lackmeyer (2/9/10)


Assistant City Manager Cathy O’Connor and Assistant Public Works Director Laura Story don’t argue McDermid’s point — but they say the two projects are on, and will remain on two very different timetables.

Project 180 started a year ago when the city, working with Devon Energy, created a new tax increment finance district funded by future property taxes from the company’s new tower. The two parties, along with representatives and local schools, libraries and the county, agreed to use the proceeds to rebuild all downtown streets, sidewalks, parks and public spaces.
...
“We do have this agreement to do streets around Devon’s development by the time their building is done — and those could not have waited,” O’Connor said.
That last line sure makes it sound like it was Devon in the driver's seat(at least for the Devon adjacent areas, not sure about the rest of P180)...by the way, this agreement should be a public document, has Steve ever seen what the agreement actually states? It is easy for both sides to say "it isn't us, it was them"

^disconnect with what's really going on....

What is the difference between this:


LN - I want the streets done around my building first
City - Okay, here is the timeline
LN - Great, get started
City - We are done around your building LN, but we spent all the money doing it
LN - Not my problem, I didn't approve your timeline or budget


and this:


It is correct; from all my interviews, meetings I attended, Devon was not and did not push for all of Project 180 to be done by 2012 or 2014. Instead, they just wanted the streets immediately surrounding their campus and I suspect the gardens done by the opening of Devon Energy Center. The original timeline of getting all of Project 180 complete by 2014 was pushed by Oklahoma City Public Works and the City Manager's office.

In fairness, the only streets bordering the Devon complex are that little strip of Harvey, one block of Sheridan that also borders the MBG and the Hudson; and the last one is still not complete.

Besides those few blocks, P180 did many other projects prior, such as several blocks of Reno, Main, and Walker.

It's not like they put the Devon area in front of many others. The only remaining budgeted streets are either also under construction or waiting on SandRidge.


And remember, none of this would have even started had Devon not fronted the City the TIF money, as they are only just now starting to collect on sales tax and the property tax hasn't even kicked in yet.

And remember, none of this would have even started had Devon not fronted the City the TIF money, as they are only just now starting to collect on sales tax and the property tax hasn't even kicked in yet.

Didn't they loan the money to the City with interest? Yes, they didn't have to do it and it is great that they did, but this was money they were going to have to pay anyhow so they were actually able to reduce their effective total tax burden by doing it. When that property tax does kick in they have to turn right around and give it back to Devon. It provided a great benefit to OKC but Devon also benefited financially, plus the money got spent on the public realm around their building.

Didn't they loan the money to the City with interest? Yes, they didn't have to do it and it is great that they did, but this was money they were going to have to pay anyhow so they were actually able to reduce their effective total tax burden by doing it. When that property tax does kick in they have to turn right around and give it back to Devon. It provided a great benefit to OKC but Devon also benefited financially, plus the money got spent on the public realm around their building.

It got spent on more than just around their building..........probably less than 15 or 20 % of the overall costs, as a WA ballpark guess. Looking at the total scope, even with the hardships and incompleteness, in the end it has re-shaped and improved DT to an elevated degree.

What is the difference between this:



and this:

That you implicate a private citizen who has devoted vast sums of influence, political will, financial resources, etc., toward downtown's revitalization, rather than a government bureaucrat who has overstayed his welcome.

That's a pretty gross difference IMO, and I don't mean to drive a stake into you, I just think that the distinction makes all the difference. I'm probably more frustrated with the good ole boy system in OKC than you, coming face-to-face with it on a regular basis - however, there ARE good guys there as well.

This is the article I was thinking of by our favorite Oklahoman reporter...

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/12/04/project-180-streetcars-deadlines/
CRITICISM, CONFUSION ARISE OVER DOWNTOWN PROJECTS
By Steve Lackmeyer (2/9/10)

That last line sure makes it sound like it was Devon in the driver's seat(at least for the Devon adjacent areas, not sure about the rest of P180)...by the way, this agreement should be a public document, has Steve ever seen what the agreement actually states? It is easy for both sides to say "it isn't us, it was them"

Yep. That was the city's line. But the Devon folks in later stories did not agree with that ...

What is the difference between this:



and this:

Ya know, I'm going to have to learn not to post online right after I've been out in the heat!
Justthefacts, you've not complained about it, but, I have to apologize anyway. My response was flippant, not something I want to do. And I owe you a better response.
So here goes...
I understand where you might perceive it this way. But really, this topic is a lot more complicated (and messed up) than this thread treats it.
I've talked to all these involved parties, and I've tracked all this since early on. I reported a couple of times the apparent disconnect between statements made by city staff and what Devon executives, leadership really wanted in terms of schedule deadlines. Was it deliberate? I really don't know anymore. I think we've seen a city staff that has been stretched way too thin, one that has lost key players, and still has an ever increasing work load. That said, Larry Nichols is on the Devon TIF implementation committee, and as one of several members he does review and vote on schedules and budgeting set by city staff. I also can say that the statements "we are done around your building LN, but we spent all the money doing it" and "not my problem, etc." are just not true. There were a couple of major hits on the budget - basements other challenges on Main Street (not around Devon's campus) and at the Myriad Gardens (by far the one Project 180 component most folks would say was for the whole community, and not just devon or nearby companies).
Anyway, things to think about for sure....

No worries Steve and thanks for clarifying. I spent too much time on Politics forum to have thin skin so no apology necessary - but thanks for offering one anyhow. I forgot that Larry was on the Devon TIF implementation committee so I guess he did approve the budget and timeline. So meanwhile, back at the ranch, P180 became something less than 180, the timeline isn't going to get met, what has been done cost more than planned, and the taxes collected came in lower than expected. Not exactly a recipe for success.

So let me ask, not that you can probably answer, but why such a disconnet between what City staff are saying in public and what is being said in private. Why would they (City staff) say Devon wants X done in Y amount of time and Devon is claiming they never said that? Clearly both parties can't be right.

It is correct; from all my interviews, meetings I attended, Devon was not and did not push for all of Project 180 to be done by 2012 or 2014. Instead, they just wanted the streets immediately surrounding their campus and I suspect the gardens done by the opening of Devon Energy Center. The original timeline of getting all of Project 180 complete by 2014 was pushed by Oklahoma City Public Works and the City Manager's office.

What a track record they are building. Arbitrary deadlines, poor planning, misdirection and public manipulation of facts, absolute communication failure, obfuscation, lack of accountability...shall I go on?

Yep. That was the city's line. But the Devon folks in later stories did not agree with that ...

Has it escaped folks that Couch could have been providing Larry a little political cover?

And Spartan, Larry is a pretty good guy, but he's proven himself willing to play some nasty politics behind the scenes at times.

However, Pete's point is a good one: not much of P180 actually bordered Devon, so who cares if Larry wanted it done first? We knew that anyway.

The big scandal with P180 was how secretive the whole process was, how little Couch and team communicated with public / council about the financial shortcomings -- and the fact the project was being reduced by about 40%, when all statements leading up to the ultimate disclosure were "everything's okey dokey." It's somewhat stunning, actually, and abusive of the public trust. I can't think of anything handled worse in recent years. And what was most appalling about it was how casual Couch/Wenger were when the truth was finally revealed.

So let me ask, not that you can probably answer, but why such a disconnet between what City staff are saying in public and what is being said in private. Why would they (City staff) say Devon wants X done in Y amount of time and Devon is claiming they never said that? Clearly both parties can't be right.

Because thats what they do. Same thing they are/did do with the boulevard and ODOT. And when they are called out on it they say we are "overreacting" even though we all know they were on the fast track to rubber stamping it. Its everyone else's fault but their fault.

Wenger and Couch are in way over their heads which isn't the biggest sin, but the way they are dealing with it is to constantly change their story and gloss over problem areas.

I first noticed this with the whole P180 budget fiasco, and I started following everything very closely after realizing they were being less than truthful about that project.

Neither even mentioned that Project 180 was about to run out of money with less than half the work done until all that money had been already spent or obligated. And even then, Wenger stood in front of City Council (and I wrote this down while watching the webcast) and said: "The scope has been slightly adjusted". Truth: Almost half the promised work was not going to be possible with the money they had available. He also said: "Also unchanged is the project area of Project 180, it's always included the areas bound by NW 6th and SW 2nd, Lee Avenue to EK Galord” while showing the slide that denotes NW 6th to SW 2nd and Lee to EK Gaylord." Truth: The project area may have not changed, they just merely deleted about half the promised work within it.

And as he's making these slick, intentionally misleading presentations, Couch is quick to jump in and defend anything that comes up, usually with nonsensical answers. When Shadid asked him why they chose to start work on the Civic Center streets rather than EK Gaylord and others and why EKG couldn't go before he said: “It could have. A lot of it was just the construction order; somebody had to be first and somebody had to be last. We're trying to coordinate with Sandridge, which changed the order of some of the projects. We did have a directive for the Devon Implementation Committee to do projects 1, 3 and 4 and there was the desire to do the area around the Memorial.”

This is a complete non-answer and doesn't even make sense, other than trying to blame the Devon Committee, which we know is not the way these priorities are handed down.

And the mayor quickly covered for them as well.



I'm very, very uncomfortable with Couch & Wenger because they stand in front of key decision makers and either completely mis-lead them, or just choose to leave out very important information.

I don't think they are evil men, just stretched beyond their capabilities and not willing to admit when something has gone off the rails.

This is very unfortunate if it is the reality of the dynamic between City Council, Mayor, and City Staff. I hope for better from my government and have been generally pleased with the leadership of OKC. It would be extremely disappointing if all the conspiratorial or closed door shenanigans rumors were true. I will continue to give benefit of the doubt until I am proven incorrect for doing so.

The other thing they keep doing which makes me furious is constantly putting out propaganda about revenue shortfalls.

The truth is, the money available for Project 180 actually INCREASED in total, it just was reduced in some categories.


They try to use decreased revenue as an excuse when the fact is they had more money to work with than was originally budgeted.


AND they keep changing the budgets. You will never, ever see current expenditures compared to the original budget, which is a cardinal sin in project management. They merely keep adjusting the budgets to fit what they spend.

AND they keep changing the budgets. You will never, ever see current expenditures compared to the original budget, which is a cardinal sin in project management. They merely keep adjusting the budgets to fit what they spend.

This is similar to how the new I-40 opened 2 weeks early according to ODOT.

Obviously, they have a lot of responsibility, but that doesn't absolve them of basic accountability to the citizens and taxpayers. Our citizen representatives are the Council and Mayor. Hopefully our Council will do its job and demand this accountability -- and hopefully it's more than Ed Shadid and Pete White. Surely other members can step it up. I don't suggest they attack, just demand accountability and openness. We live in an era of increased "transparency," or at least, that's what the public professes to want. Couch seems old school (and he's taught Wenger everything he knows), so he may have a little difficulty getting with the program. It's up to the Council to hold his feet to the fire (and not necessarily in an adversarial way).

The problem is that these items are presented to the council very late in the process (see the downtown boulevard as another example) and as one of 150 items on their meeting agenda.

You get Wenger with a slick Powerpoint presentation telling them everything is fine and when Shadid (usually the only one sharp enough to catch some of this BS) speaks up, Couch laughs it off, Mayor Mick insists everything is cool and everyone else gets annoyed for spending an extra five minutes on the topic.

It's completely unacceptable for the City Manager's office to only reveal they are way over budget when it's too late for anything to be done about it. And even when they do go way off track, they aren't even direct about it. See the quotes I cited above.


Most here know I am not an alarmist but this situation is outrageous and I have no trust in Couch or his underlings.

Obviously, they have a lot of responsibility, but that doesn't absolve them of basic accountability to the citizens and taxpayers. Our citizen representatives are the Council and Mayor. Hopefully our Council will do its job and demand this accountability -- and hopefully it's more than Ed Shadid and Pete White. Surely other members can step it up. I don't suggest they attack, just demand accountability and openness. We live in an era of increased "transparency," or at least, that's what the public professes to want. Couch seems old school (and he's taught Wenger everything he knows), so he may have a little difficulty getting with the program. It's up to the Council to hold his feet to the fire (and not necessarily in an adversarial way).


Well said.

And after watching several Council meetings, there is certainly a lot of truth in what Pete said. Dr Shadid seems to be left out on a limb by his fellow council persons regularly.

Well said.

And after watching several Council meetings, there is certainly a lot of truth in what Pete said. Dr Shadid seems to be left out on a limb by his fellow council persons regularly.

Only because he climbed out on it

Man, some pics of progress would be astronomical...lol

Only because he climbed out on it

And good government requires that elected officials are willing to do so without re-election being their highest concern. From everything I have seen, Dr. Shadid is willing to ask the hard questions even at risk of those questions being mischaracterized (Kelly Ogle/Oklahoman and the zoo question comes to mind) and not just going along to get along. We could use a few more people on the council willing to do the same.

And good government requires that elected officials are willing to do so without re-election being their highest concern. From everything I have seen, Dr. Shadid is willing to ask the hard questions even at risk of those questions being mischaracterized (Kelly Ogle/Oklahoman and the zoo question comes to mind) and not just going along to get along. We could use a few more people on the council willing to do the same.

Kelly Ogle is such a simpleton.

Only because he climbed out on it

Huh? He's the only one with any backbone and consistent integrity right now. Who else can we consistently count on to ask tough questions?

Huh? He's the only one with any backbone and consistent integrity right now. Who else can we consistently count on to ask tough questions?

Pete White isn't afraid to rattle some cages.

...Larry is a pretty good guy, but he's proven himself willing to play some nasty politics behind the scenes at times...
Really? Do you have a documented example of this?

Huh? He's the only one with any backbone and consistent integrity right now. Who else can we consistently count on to ask tough questions?

Asking tough questions is pretty easy. Working with people to get it done is quite another thing. There are lots of people qualified to ask questions and act surly, but the crowd thins considerably when execution is involved and it means learning to deal effectively with the team you are put in and finding common grounds to move forward on and get your agenda accomplished without diluting your ideals. We need leaders, not angry people. We need council people who will earn the respect of their fellow council members as well as their constituents. We need council people who do not alienate others who are part of the process.

Asking tough questions is pretty easy. Working with people to get it done is quite another thing. There are lots of people qualified to ask questions and act surly, but the crowd thins considerably when execution is involved and it means learning to deal effectively with the team you are put in and finding common grounds to move forward on and get your agenda accomplished without diluting your ideals. We need leaders, not angry people. We need council people who will earn the respect of their fellow council members as well as their constituents. We need council people who do not alienate others who are part of the process.

When the process is broken, the last thing that is needed is more sheep.

Pete: you may have noticed it first on Project 180, but it goes back many, many, mnay more years than that...back when both were involved in the early stages of the 1st MAPS and all that went wrong with it (budgets, revenue, poor planning and all of the other things you have cited currently). I have no doubt that Mr. Wenger in particular is a nice man (Couch, not so much). How either have stayed with the City as long as they have and advanced in their positions given the horrendous mistakes along the way, getting the high salaries they get, and not let go, is beyond comprehension.

Really? Do you have a documented example of this?

Crickets............................

Asking tough questions is pretty easy. Working with people to get it done is quite another thing. There are lots of people qualified to ask questions and act surly, but the crowd thins considerably when execution is involved and it means learning to deal effectively with the team you are put in and finding common grounds to move forward on and get your agenda accomplished without diluting your ideals. We need leaders, not angry people. We need council people who will earn the respect of their fellow council members as well as their constituents. We need council people who do not alienate others who are part of the process.

Are you suggesting that Shadid is "angry" and "surly?" Pretty ridiculous statement. Ed is kind and thoughtful, passionate and well-informed. I have yet to see the man get "angry." I have noticed other council members act surly on the horseshoe. Ed is not one of them. Back to thread topic.

I wasn't focused just on Ed. But since you mentioned it...Ed doesn't always play well, and yes, he can come off angry (you say "passionate") or arrogant (if he is for something I am for he is "passionate", but if he is for something I am against, he is "angry"... LOL). I know Ed and don't question his integrity, his intentions, his intelligence or his motives. But it takes more than fire to get things done.

The oversight of this project is the entire council's responsibility, and the mayor's. No doubt they have dropped the ball. We should as constituents make it abundantly clear to each of our council persons that it is unacceptable.

Asking tough questions is pretty easy. Working with people to get it done is quite another thing. There are lots of people qualified to ask questions and act surly, but the crowd thins considerably when execution is involved and it means learning to deal effectively with the team you are put in and finding common grounds to move forward on and get your agenda accomplished without diluting your ideals. We need leaders, not angry people. We need council people who will earn the respect of their fellow council members as well as their constituents. We need council people who do not alienate others who are part of the process.

I'm sorry Rover, but if you have a point somewhere in here, it clearly has nothing to do with Ed. I seriously hope you don't mean to suggest Ed doesn't cooperate with anybody, because that's malarkey. He's spent an insane amount of his own bank account on organizing massive town halls (plural) to help connect hundreds of citizens at a time with city leaders. He had every department head present to answer questions from citizens about sprawl at his sprawl forum, which was held at the Marriott ballroom, and bankrolled entirely by him personally.

He's doing it all over again and bringing in the former Milwaukee mayor and Canada's leading roundabout resigner for the boulevard town hall, Aug 13th. Ed has forged amazing partnerships with urban activists, neighborhood leaders, academics and researchers, and on and on. Just because he doesn't work with the good ole boy system doesn't mean he doesn't have a base, that he can't effect tangible change, and that he isn't working with a TON of people. He is.

Aside from Pete and sometimes Meg, the rest of the council are pretty worthless, and when those guys retire their replacements are probably going to be polar opposites. To get elected to represent neighborhoods in a city of 600,000, you actually have to be likable (major strike against most of them), have to be a dynamic speaker (again), can't be getting in trouble with drunk driving or berating citizens during meetings, you have to represent more diverse segments of society (angry old white men won't cut it for nearly every seat), and you have to be more knowledgeable about urban subject matters.

And I do believe that OKC is within 5 years of a major generational shift on the Horseshoe. And by the way, I have nothing against old white guys, as Sam Bowman was one of my all-time favorite councilmen. And I liked Ann Simank much better than I like Meg Salyer (nothing major against Meg, but Simank was great) who was also white despite representing a majority non-white ward. That said, it's unfortunate to not have any meaningful representation on the southside, aside from Pete growing up in the area and being a major champion for the demographics who live there now.

Are you suggesting that Shadid is "angry" and "surly?" Pretty ridiculous statement. Ed is kind and thoughtful, passionate and well-informed. I have yet to see the man get "angry." I have noticed other council members act surly on the horseshoe. Ed is not one of them. Back to thread topic.

Shyeah... if you want surly and angry, just look to the left of Ed. Lol.

If that individual whom I won't name reads OKC Talk, he probably just popped a vessel, which would not be good.

I believe all the work is finally complete on Main Street.


Recent photo of the Bicentennial Park work. Sidewalks are in.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/388162_508828815800413_1329709785_n.jpg

Thank goodness. I'm looking forward to not walking through the mud to get to the Civic Center when the philharmonic season starts up next month. Hopefully by the 2013 season, this will all be done.

:iagree:

What Mr Cotter said! (And Welcome Back Mr Cotter - sorry, had to be done!)

Back to the subject of accountability, I've done my best to reconcile expenditures to budget for this project and it simply can't be done with the information they have reported. Keep in mind, everything seen by the OKC Economic Development Committee and City Council is public record, so I've been looking at the same things submitted to them for various approvals.

The City Manager merely submits what they've received in revenues and what they've spent for the current year and prior, but there is absolutely no way to tell: 1) how these numbers stack up against the original approved budgets; 2) how much they have left to spend; and 3) how much work is left to be done.


I have never, ever seen projects managed in this way. I'm seriously considering drafting a proper project report format and passing it along to all the people involved and suggesting they adopt something similar.

There is a vast difference in skills required to be a good engineer and to be a good project manager. Project management is a discipline in and of itself and I think the city should be forced to hire a great one considering the amount of money and projects they are entrusted with.

Kathy O'Connor (or her office) is actually the one that submits all these reports.

I know she gets the information from the City Manager's office but one of the reasons we created the Economic Development Trust was be more efficient and professional in the way we handle these projects.

The EDT has project managers on their payroll as well but they clearly do not have the proper background or are simply just regurgitating what they get from Couch & Co. Either way, this process is broken and the Economic Development Trust has not helped.