Looks like the end is near for the Main Street saga:

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/428424_498752976807997_694017033_n.jpg

Miracles do happen!

Say it isn't so, Pete.

Comments by Steve in his blog:

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/07/11/men-at-work-really/#respond

Maybe the attention is paying off finally.

Two guys were on Robinson - one actually with a shovel in hand. They put sand in the impressions around the little trees on the sidewalk on west side of Century Center. Then, as usual, they disappeared without finishing. Maybe we'll have a finished sidewalk on Robinson before Christmas decorations go up.

Something occurred to me, during high heat days, I sometimes see road crews working after dark...could that be an explanation why we don't see workers on a regular basis during the day? granted that doesn't explain the slow pace...

Two guys were on Robinson - one actually with a shovel in hand....

And the other was watching a clock to tell him when it was time to go on his mandatory break.

<rimshot>

Something occurred to me, during high heat days, I sometimes see road crews working after dark...could that be an explanation why we don't see workers on a regular basis during the day? granted that doesn't explain the slow pace...

I don't think they are working early or late.

When I was there in June, the weather was very nice and most the construction zones were completely still in the middle of the day. And certainly no one was working after 4PM.

Something occurred to me, during high heat days, I sometimes see road crews working after dark...could that be an explanation why we don't see workers on a regular basis during the day? granted that doesn't explain the slow pace...

Not in the areas they have the lanes/sidewalk blocked off all day

stones mostly installed on the east side of robinson between sheridan and main

I think the stones have been there for a minute...

I think the stones have been there for a minute...

i wasn't talking about the ones in the median

i wasn't talking about the ones in the median

Oh...well excuse me.

You beat me to it. They finished all but 4 of the sections on that side - when I left office today at three, no one was workiing to finish them off.
Took a picture yesterday - three guys working at one time! Well, one was standing there watching the other two.
I've never been able to negotiate any tour of duty for my bargaining unit that was less than 8 hours a day - they must have a good union.

... they must have a good union.

Interesting definition of 'good'.

Just because you don't see them working downtown doesn't mean they aren't working somewhere else. A contractor wouldn't stay in business very long if he paid his workers 8 hours for 4 hours worth of work. The reason you are seeing an increase in activity is because the contractor is approaching a deadline and will be penalized financially if the work is not completed.

Actually, it's common practice for contractors to commit their crews to multiple projects at once....

Say it isn't so, Pete.

Comments by Steve in his blog:

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2012/07/11/men-at-work-really/#respond

Maybe the attention is paying off finally.

That's what I'm thinking. P180 is a great thing, hopefully we can all agree on that. Hopefully we all also agree in wanting P180 to be implemented as smoothly as possible, and that just wasn't the case, but hopefully the controversy has made a difference and we can all go back to appreciating the effort of all involved.

I hope that competent progress continues as it has miraculously ensued lately. To that end, if this keeps up it's important to say a thank you to the same people who were eviscerated for bad project management. Just as people need to hear it when they're doing bad work, people also need to hear it when they're doing good work.

That's what I'm thinking. P180 is a great thing, hopefully we can all agree on that. Hopefully we all also agree in wanting P180 to be implemented as smoothly as possible, and that just wasn't the case, but hopefully the controversy has made a difference and we can all go back to appreciating the effort of all involved.

I hope that competent progress continues as it has miraculously ensued lately. To that end, if this keeps up it's important to say a thank you to the same people who were eviscerated for bad project management. Just as people need to hear it when they're doing bad work, people also need to hear it when they're doing good work.

Well said.

Actually, it's common practice for contractors to commit their crews to multiple projects at once....

That was my point exactly. And now that the contractor is facing financial penalties he is concentrating his work force on Project 180.

Not to make too many excuses for a project that has been admittedly way clunkier than promised, but sometimes jobs hit a standstill due to circumstances beyond the contractor's immediate control. For instance, you might not see any workers on a particular site because they are waiting for a subcontractor to finish installation of some necessary piece of infrastructure, or because they cannot proceed further without a City inspection. Anyone who has constructed a home or built out a commercial space can relate to this. Lots of complexity when dealing with multiple trades and inspections, and scheduling it precisely is at best an art and at worst impossible.

Granted, scheduling subs and anticipating inspections, etc., is an important part of being a good general contractor, but just because there aren't men on a job doesn't necessarily mean completion of that project isn't important to or a priority for the construction company.

Granted, scheduling subs and anticipating inspections, etc., is an important part of being a good general contractor, but just because there aren't men on a job doesn't necessarily mean completion of that project isn't important to or a priority for the construction company.

When there are sections with almost no activity for weeks or even months at a time, and that occurs multiple times in one area and almost every area, that is just terrible project management and the ultimate responsibility lies with the city on that.

I've managed big commercial building projects and I assure you that I never had situations where there were these types of huge gaps in work.

Something taking double the time projected is an abject failure of planning and anyone responsible would certainly be fired in the real (i.e. not government) world. That's not even to mention the entire project is about 100% over budget.

Compare Project 180 to the widening of Kilpatrick Turnpike. I know there are built in advantages on the turnpike, but the point is there has been non-stop activity and progress since they started. Project 180, even when allowing for the expected and unexpected obstacles that will occur in an urban environment, was characterized by a complete lack of sustained activity and was more known for complete lack of progress. Could this be due to the entity that contracted the work on the Turnpike vs the City of OKC?

Compare Project 180 to the widening of Kilpatrick Turnpike. I know there are built in advantages on the turnpike, but the point is there has been non-stop activity and progress since they started. Project 180, even when allowing for the expected and unexpected obstacles that will occur in an urban environment, was characterized by a complete lack of sustained activity and was more known for complete lack of progress. Could this be due to the entity that contracted the work on the Turnpike vs the City of OKC?

Just wondering, how many unknown basements, utility lines, sewer lines, water lines, abandoned oil tanks, etc; did they discover while widening the turnpike.

Just wondering, did you read the entire comment? Duh - hence the "built in advantages on the turnpike" and "expected and unexpected obstacles" part of the comment.

Just wondering, how many unknown basements, utility lines, sewer lines, water lines, abandoned oil tanks, etc; did they discover while widening the turnpike.

Just wondering, how many unknown basements, utility lines, sewer lines, water lines, abandoned oil tanks, etc; did they actually discover while working on the limited parts of Project 180 they have started?

Compare Project 180 to the widening of Kilpatrick Turnpike. I know there are built in advantages on the turnpike, but the point is there has been non-stop activity and progress since they started. Project 180, even when allowing for the expected and unexpected obstacles that will occur in an urban environment, was characterized by a complete lack of sustained activity and was more known for complete lack of progress. Could this be due to the entity that contracted the work on the Turnpike vs the City of OKC?

I think you bring up a fantastic point, but I'd say it speaks more to political will. There is more of a political will around here to widen a freeway that does not need to be widened, than there is with a civic and state leadership that doesn't know what to think of downtown becoming a choice locale for people to eat, live, and play.

The crazy thing is that nobody lives along the Kilpatrick Turnpike. In fact, nobody does anything along that ROW, except drive. It's a dead space. There are a ton of retail and restaurant establishments along Memorial however, pushed back another few hundred feet for parking lots. Still, nobody does anything along the Kilpatrick, it doesn't serve any commuting purpose, and few people even use it during the day. All it does is look good on maps, completing a nice box around the city's NW side. Yet they're more serious about improving that than they are downtown.

I think you bring up a fantastic point, but I'd say it speaks more to political will. There is more of a political will around here to widen a freeway that does not need to be widened, than there is with a civic and state leadership that doesn't know what to think of downtown becoming a choice locale for people to eat, live, and play.

The freeway had been planed around expanding to six lanes prior to original construction, plus the designers & workers do that or very similar work all the time. Whoever planed project 180 seemed to have no idea that buildings in the 1930s would often load cargo directly to the basement from the street, the various old pipes would have been expected but only so much can be done to mitigate that.

As someone who drives the Kilpatrick around the Memorial Road area daily, I can tell you it is unnecessary to widen that road. I drive it during peak commuting time and have rarely had to slow down less than 60 mph. Spartan nailed the point about political will - and the fact the Turnpike Authority bond revenues benefit a very exclusive group of people. The ability to keep tolls in place is the primary actual reason behind most turnpike construction in OK.

But back to Project 180, I am amazed the project seems to have been so poorly planned and executed. Had it been managed more effectively and efficiently, we may have been able to have the entire 180 instead of only 100 or so.....the completed areas look very nice and seem to be well done. It is another example of OKC settling for adequate or passable rather than striving for and demanding excellence. I really like OKC and have seen this attitude become much less common in many areas, unfortunately our local and state government often comes up short in that regard still. But I am hopeful this will continue to improve along with OKC's downtown rebirth.

The crazy thing is that nobody lives along the Kilpatrick Turnpike. In fact, nobody does anything along that ROW, except drive. It's a dead space. There are a ton of retail and restaurant establishments along Memorial however, pushed back another few hundred feet for parking lots. Still, nobody does anything along the Kilpatrick, it doesn't serve any commuting purpose, and few people even use it during the day. All it does is look good on maps, completing a nice box around the city's NW side. Yet they're more serious about improving that than they are downtown.

You need to get out more. It is heavily used and way more people live within a mile of it than in downtown.

One of the possible reasons that work gets let and done quickly on this turnpike may be that it actually is a revenue generating project. Funds can be committed and spent at once. And, as stated above, expansion was designed in to start with. There are no surprises,

You need to get out more. It is heavily used and way more people live within a mile of it than in downtown.

One of the possible reasons that work gets let and done quickly on this turnpike may be that it actually is a revenue generating project. Funds can be committed and spent at once. And, as stated above, expansion was designed in to start with. There are no surprises,

Well the OTA is a hole 'nuther debate, going back to the history of its creation with the Turner Tpk. That said, I would love it if someone could snap a photo of congestion on the Kilpatrick Turnpike, or anything suggesting a modicum of heavy usage. As for needing to get out more, I already feel pretty guilty about how often I'm up that way, so no thank you lol.

I think have driven on the Turner turnpike with worse congestion outside of classic peak hours than the Kilpatrick was at the height of rush hour. Maybe this was just low hanging fruit for them.

I would definitely support widening the Turner Turnpike, which actually would serve a purpose.

I think have driven on the Turner turnpike with worse congestion outside of classic peak hours than the Kilpatrick was at the height of rush hour. Maybe this was just low hanging fruit for them.

According to the actual traffic accounts the kilpatrick turnpike traffic count is right at TWICE that of Turner. It is the highest count turnpike in the state. People ought to check facts instead of showing bias.

According to the actual traffic accounts the kilpatrick turnpike traffic count is right at TWICE that of Turner. It is the highest count turnpike in the state. People ought to check facts instead of showing bias.

Congestion and Volume are not the same thing and a road designed sixty years ago often has choke points that more recent one would not. Percentage of semi's to total traffic can also play a roll.

Congestion and Volume are not the same thing and a road designed sixty years ago often has choke points that more recent one would not. Percentage of semi's to total traffic can also play a roll.

Snowman is right. The JKT, with the frequency of decelerating traffic for exiting traffic and the corresponding merge conflicts for entering traffic which happens at locations nearly every mile, has as many choke points between Broadway and Portland as the Turner has in its 88 mile length.

Also, volume doesn't equal congestion. The JKT with 55,000 vehicles per day, over twice the Turner's 25,000 vehicles per day, has marked rush hour peaks. Though it's volume is only a little over twice as much over a 24 hour span, it's design hourly volume (congestion) is probably on the order of 3-4 times as high.

This isn't to say anything about it's social / political / economic import, whether turnpikes should be built or are good ideas, etc., but the numbers support Rover's stance.

But back to Project 180, I am amazed the project seems to have been so poorly planned and executed.

The problem was the leap frogging they did - fix two blocks here, then fix 3 blocks over there, and a park over yonder and the 4 streets around it. They should have picked one street and fixed it all the way through downtown, then the second street, and then the third, and so on (and streets with streetcar running in them should have been done last).

Congestion and Volume are not the same thing and a road designed sixty years ago often has choke points that more recent one would not. Percentage of semi's to total traffic can also play a roll.

And the choke points on Turner are...?

Back to topic...

The projects for Kilpatrick and P180 are complete apples to oranges. Totally different conditions, designs, financing,etc. and we don't need to compare. P180 has been clearly mismanaged...by how much we don't really know. If our council persons are truly involed and concerned then they should demand and orchestrate a review. Otherwise, it is political lip service. The buck stops with them and they should take control.

Is there a map that shows which P180 blocks are done, which are under construction, and which ones haven't started?

All good points on Contract mis-management for P180. Though ODOT is not held in high regard here, on just about every urban project they use A+B(+C)(+D) contracting, lane rental provisions, or incentive/disincentive clauses. This allows the Contractor to schedule his work and perform his work in the most profitable way while disrupting the public at a minimum. With the unknowns in this project there would have to be Contractual provisions to address change of conditions, but it wouldn't be anything that can't or hasn't been done before.

About half the total P180 area work has been 'postponed', with no funding source identified for that 50% (mol) of the work.
Seems fair to simply note that P180 amounts to a tragic overreach or even a failure, even if the lengthy delays had not existed.

The revised P90 however falls somewhere in between a right royal pain and barely tolerable, depending I suppose on how folk
feel about a street or two still sitting as 2 way - 1 way - 2 way (or did they fix that and I just missed it by not coming back to DT
in recent months?)

Is there a map that shows which P180 blocks are done, which are under construction, and which ones haven't started?

Had to go back quite a ways (pg 29) but here is what I found...don't know if it is "current" now or not...


I finally found the presentation on the City Council website, unlabeled.



The area outlined with a dotted line was part of Project 180 but has now been omitted.

Yellow is Package #6, the final to be bid which should happen in Summer of 2012 but it was also said this hasn't been finalized so there is no guarantee all of it will be finished.

Brown is shown as "future" but there is no funding for it and effectively has been removed from Project 180 unless additional funds miraculously appear and there are no more cost over-runs.

This map is also inaccurate in that it only shows one block of 6th as "future" and the rest out of the scope of the project, when in fact four blocks of 5th (from Walker to Broadway) were part of the original plan.


Basically, almost half the street improvements have been cut. Also, it sounds like Bicentennial Park will still be a part of Project 180 but the park to the east of City Hall will not.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/project180c1.jpg
http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/project180c2.jpg
On a related note...


Here's a better version of that slide from the two-way street conversion presentation:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/twoway5.jpg

Even though I'm the one that posted those maps, they aren't completely accurate because originally, the streets were to be improved all the way to SW 2nd (the new Boulevard) but now the City personnel just leave those sections completely off.

Also, they are not doing the full streetscape on Robison and I'm not sure where else. And they also cut several other projects, like redoing two or three plazas.

Was a sad state of affairs - yet they some how found millions to pledge to the project that shall not be named across the river.

2016 Bond.

Slight correction of sorts...Spartan was very close, only off by a year...

http://www.okc.gov/news/go_bond_2007/q_and_a.html

How often are bond issue elections held?
Oklahoma City last held bond issue elections in 1989, 1995 and 2000, so they've been spaced roughly five or six years apart. Since this is a 10-year bond issue, the next bond election won't be until 2017.

Slight correction of sorts...Spartan was very close, only off by a year...

http://www.okc.gov/news/go_bond_2007/q_and_a.html

And that's assuming all 2007 GO Bonds can be sold in time. They had to cut back on bond sales the past couple years, so funding is behind. AND, even if an election was held in 2017 and it passed, the first few projects couldn't be funded until May 2018 and construction on anything would be hard pressed before fall (unless OCMFA funds the engineering prior to the bond election).

And that's assuming all 2007 GO Bonds can be sold in time. They had to cut back on bond sales the past couple years, so funding is behind. AND, even if an election was held in 2017 and it passed, the first few projects couldn't be funded until May 2018 and construction on anything would be hard pressed before fall (unless OCMFA funds the engineering prior to the bond election).

But that's good enough for you guys with the rail quiet zone.

But that's good enough for you guys with the rail quiet zone.

I don't follow. Why the insult?

I personally want the quiet zone now. It's a simple project that could have been done by now, considering I worked on pre-design and original coordination with BNSF when I was in Public Works in 2008.

I think the "poster child" for Project 180-90=90 is Main St in front of Coney Island. Why on earth is Package 3, 2010 Construction just now being completed? Any business owner along that street should raise holy hell to Public Works or whomever was in charge (will anyone claim "credit" for P180 now?) The gross mismanagement of P180 does not make one comfortable with the ability of the city to guide ODOT through the Blvd design process or other complex projects. I think the saving grace of the MAPS projects are the citizen - centric subcommittees.

A recent photo of the progress at Bicentennial Park:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/422329_505385519478076_36511317_n.jpg

I think if you want to understand why Project 180 has been so bumpy, you should go back to how it got started in the first place. Which is to say it was another of those things where a big wheel downtown wanted it, and everyone scrambled to make him happy, rather than lay an adequate groundwork for the project.

I think if you want to understand why Project 180 has been so bumpy, you should go back to how it got started in the first place. Which is to say it was another of those things where a big wheel downtown wanted it, and everyone scrambled to make him happy, rather than lay an adequate groundwork for the project.

The problem isn't the fact that a big wheel got it going, it was the cities inability to enforce the contractor to complete sections in a timely manner. How many weeks went by when work on the street in front of Coney Island sit idle ?

The question I have is why the city couldn't force the contractor to complete in a timely manner. I'm pretty sure it wasn't just neglect or indifference.

I suspect that the bottlenecks were the result of trying to roll the whole thing out so fast.

I disagree. In terms of laying groundwork and the planning process, I actually believe that the planning that went into P180, which suffered the most expedited time table of all project phases, was excellent.

I think if that were the case, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think the problem is much more nuanced than that.

I think the problem is much more nuanced than that.

Or is it just "Storied"?

The parts that the above-referenced big wheel wanted done were done relatively quickly. Even during the worst part of the construction on Robinson, Devon-hired contractors were escorting Devon employees across the bad parts of street while the rest of us had to scramble. Same with Main Street issues - there was no logical reason to delay that work, other than it wasn't a priority for the wheel(s).

Hey, come on, they're Downtown Proud.

Or is it just "Storied"?

The parts that the above-referenced big wheel wanted done were done relatively quickly. Even during the worst part of the construction on Robinson, Devon-hired contractors were escorting Devon employees across the bad parts of street while the rest of us had to scramble. Same with Main Street issues - there was no logical reason to delay that work, other than it wasn't a priority for the wheel(s).

Those darn wheels. They mess everything up.

Hey, at least have courage to call out Larry directly. And see if most people in this city think Larry has been very good for this city or are bitter.

A recent photo of the progress at Bicentennial Park:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/422329_505385519478076_36511317_n.jpg

I was in this area on Saturday taking my 88 year old mother to a performance at the Civic Center. Besides traffic problems getting into and around here, trying to find a way for an elderly person who uses a walker to navigate the streets and sidewalks was certainly a challenge.

I was in this area on Saturday taking my 88 year old mother to a performance at the Civic Center. Besides traffic problems getting into and around here, trying to find a way for an elderly person who uses a walker to navigate the streets and sidewalks was certainly a challenge.

Considering your post history in this thread, I think you would have been well aware of the challenge to be faced. I hope it was a good show! ;-)