They tried to sell the new building when I visited there earlier in the year- glad I didn't take the bait. I hope they are able to funnel more money into faculty, or upgrade the library. They could lower tuition, but I think that might take away money from their generous scholarships. The throw around some crazy money...

Yea, the tuition is absolutely out of line with the quality of education and bar passage rates they are producing!!

Yea, the tuition is absolutely out of line with the quality of education and bar passage rates they are producing!!

I may get flamed for this, but I believe that today's OCU serves two purposes:
1) Giving high-scoring applicants a free or nearly free legal education.
2) Providing a venue for those who want to go to law school at any cost.

OCU produces some fantastic attorneys, but it also lets in many who would be better served by not going to law school in the first place. Their debt load to career opportunity ratio is not in their favor, to put it nicely.

Don't get me wrong, some do get placed, and placed well at Hartzog, McAfee, and Crowe, but if your not in the top of your class your placement potential goes down exponentially for every mile you venture outside of the metro. However, to be fair, you can make a similar argument for OU- to a much lesser degree. Unless you're in the top 10-20% or a notable exception, don't expect many callbacks at big firms outside the state.

I may get flamed for this, but I believe that today's OCU serves two purposes:
1) Giving high-scoring applicants a free or nearly free legal education.
2) Providing a venue for those who want to go to law school at any cost.

OCU produces some fantastic attorneys, but it also lets in many who would be better served by not going to law school in the first place. Their debt load to career opportunity ratio is not in their favor, to put it nicely.

Don't get me wrong, some do get placed, and placed well at Hartzog, McAfee, and Crowe, but if your not in the top of your class your placement potential goes down exponentially for every mile you venture outside of the metro. However, to be fair, you can make a similar argument for OU- to a much lesser degree. Unless you're in the top 10-20% or a notable exception, don't expect many callbacks at big firms outside the state.

I'm a member of the class of '09 and I agree with that.

The debt load is ridiculous and not getting any better. I was fortunate enough to have a situation where I had a very well-compensated position right out of school guaranteed. My loans will be paid within 10 years. Most likely before. My classmates, at least those who aren't independently wealthy, are for the most part deferring and hoping for this federal government to produce some massive inflation to devalue their loans.

I may get flamed for this, but I believe that today's OCU serves two purposes:
1) Giving high-scoring applicants a free or nearly free legal education.
2) Providing a venue for those who want to go to law school at any cost.

OCU produces some fantastic attorneys, but it also lets in many who would be better served by not going to law school in the first place. Their debt load to career opportunity ratio is not in their favor, to put it nicely.

Don't get me wrong, some do get placed, and placed well at Hartzog, McAfee, and Crowe, but if your not in the top of your class your placement potential goes down exponentially for every mile you venture outside of the metro. However, to be fair, you can make a similar argument for OU- to a much lesser degree. Unless you're in the top 10-20% or a notable exception, don't expect many callbacks at big firms outside the state.

I agree with some of what you said but not all. There are those like me who went there because I wanted to go there. They offer a night program that allowed me to work for two different judges and an internship at the city attys office which allowed me to make contacts for three and a half years that I would not have otherwise made ... all three of which I would likely not been able to do at OU since they do not have a night program. Also, I am a third generation OCU law grad which was important to me. I was fortunate enough to not have to take out student loans, and already had a job once I was out of school so going to OCU served me better than going to OU. I do agree that if you will be on student loans when you are in law school that that you have no business going to OCU because unless you graduate towards the very top of your class you might as well just assume you will die with some of the law school debt.

Then you have never read the US News and World Report Rankings. Applicants and schools alike obsess over that list- so much that the ABA lists the rankings as one reason law school tuition is skyrocketing. Law schools are in an arms race, either spend or be out spent.

Of course I have seen the rankings before and the tiers but in my mind, street cred isn't the best term to use. That's all I have to say, don't want this to be an argument about street cred/reputation.

OCU's plans for a downtown law school was one of those things where I said I would believe it when I see it....

Henry definitely knows what he is doing. He is extremely bright and pragmatic. He will be excellent for the school.

Agreed. He is tuned in.

Well, and having the OKCU Law Library downtown and open to attorneys (as it is now if you sign in) would build a great rapport and connection between the legal community and the school as well. Having students alongside practicing attorneys would be cool. Not to mention the OKCU law library has a ton of great resources that the County Courthouse doesn't. (You don't need them much, but it's cool to have access.)

Well... most of the lawyers I see at librairies graduated before statehood.

I'm a member of the class of '09 and I agree with that.

The debt load is ridiculous and not getting any better. I was fortunate enough to have a situation where I had a very well-compensated position right out of school guaranteed. My loans will be paid within 10 years. Most likely before. My classmates, at least those who aren't independently wealthy, are for the most part deferring and hoping for this federal government to produce some massive inflation to devalue their loans.

I agree. I was one of the lucky ones who got an all but free ride and because of that, I feel obligated to donate back. It is the right thing to do. But as an alum, I counseled students who were burdened with horrible student debts and it was enough to keep me awake nights just thinking of it - and it wasn't even my debt. When one of my girls wanted to got to Boston University Law, I begged her to go to OU to avoid the debt burden even though I love OCU and think I got a fantastic education. She is stubborn (don't know where she gets it) and did what she wanted, graduating with horrible debts but could get a job in NYC that helped her to pay them down. If someone is staying in this area, oh god.

I agree with some of what you said but not all. There are those like me who went there because I wanted to go there. They offer a night program that allowed me to work for two different judges and an internship at the city attys office which allowed me to make contacts for three and a half years that I would not have otherwise made ... all three of which I would likely not been able to do at OU since they do not have a night program. Also, I am a third generation OCU law grad which was important to me. I was fortunate enough to not have to take out student loans, and already had a job once I was out of school so going to OCU served me better than going to OU. I do agree that if you will be on student loans when you are in law school that that you have no business going to OCU because unless you graduate towards the very top of your class you might as well just assume you will die with some of the law school debt.

You make a great point about the part-time program! I should have added a third point. A legal education doesn't have to take place between 8-3 Mon.-Fri.

Of course I have seen the rankings before and the tiers but in my mind, street cred isn't the best term to use. That's all I have to say, don't want this to be an argument about street cred/reputation.

OK, then just get over the use of the word "street cred," it's that easy. Pretend he just said "reputation" and leave it at that..

You make a great point about the part-time program! I should have added a third point. A legal education doesn't have to take place between 8-3 Mon.-Fri.

I did the night program all the way through. Just so the thread says something, the same tenured and excellent profs teach the night classes as the day students get. I will say that Creel was much, MUCH easier on his night students than his day students [if you went, you know what I'm speaking of] from what I hear, but we took the same finals.

At any rate, as I've said a few times, the quality of instruction is on par with anywhere. The teachers are EXCELLENT. Their scholarship is really top-notch and the experience is excellent. I will say this about the debt load--my classmates are all doing very well in spite of it. Either I just made friends with a bunch of folks with trust funds or they're all doing extremely well. If you get into this business and are good at it and are a good businessman, you'll be fine no matter what your student loans are.

Well... most of the lawyers I see at librairies graduated before statehood.

That's only because it's easier for them to get across town than to figure out that silly computer fad thingy.
8^)

http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/6758/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBkAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA

Oklahoma City University School of Law to remain on current campus
Friday, July 16, 2010


Henry’s decision garnered the support of former president Tom McDaniel, now an OCU chancellor.

"Many of our students and their families are struggling to meet the financial requirements of a great college education. President Henry is right on target in making student scholarships and faculty needs our first priority," McDaniel said.

Weren't those same needs present when this was announced at the end of the year? Just seven months ago...its not like the economy suddenly tanked..that had already happened and the results were being felt.

http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/6758/Default.aspx?ReturnUrl=LwBkAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0AC4AYQB zAHAAeAAslashAHAAPQAxADIANwAyADkA

Oklahoma City University School of Law to remain on current campus
Friday, July 16, 2010



Weren't those same needs present when this was announced at the end of the year? Just seven months ago...its not like the economy suddenly tanked..that had already happened and the results were being felt.

This is what bothers me about the whole thing. The economic situation is exactly the same as it was when they announced the plans. There has to be something else to this.

This is what bothers me about the whole thing. The economic situation is exactly the same as it was when they announced the plans. There has to be something else to this.
More than likely some of the "money people" behind the move must have backed out. When universities "change course" abruptly that is usually the cause.

Have any of you spent 10 minutes in that area? My personal opinion is the OCU folks realized what a huge mistake it would be to put faculty and students in one of the worst areas of town. Who in their right mind would want to go there every day and have to deal with the homeless, panhandlers, and mentally ill people roaming the streets? It is truly scary down there.

Have any of you spent 10 minutes in that area? My personal opinion is the OCU folks realized what a huge mistake it would be to put faculty and students in one of the worst areas of town. Who in their right mind would want to go there every day and have to deal with the homeless, panhandlers, and mentally ill people roaming the streets? It is truly scary down there.

I am in "that area" every day. My office is right down main street from this building, and the new devon tower is only a few blocks as well. It is not like it is sitting in the middle of south central LA. Yes there are some homeless, but there are homeless in several areas downtown. Look at civic center park (or Bicentennial park I thin is its real name) there are bums there every single day unfortunately. I think an investment in west downtown would create excitement and other development in that area as well.

Earlywinegareth, I used to live in that area, and now I actually live near OCU. I really don't see much difference in terms of safety?

I was only really 'scared' once when I lived in that area, and it was because a bus ran a stop sign and almost hit me while I was running.

I'm not a preservationist per se, but I hope someone ends up using the old Ford plant.

Have any of you spent 10 minutes in that area? My personal opinion is the OCU folks realized what a huge mistake it would be to put faculty and students in one of the worst areas of town. Who in their right mind would want to go there every day and have to deal with the homeless, panhandlers, and mentally ill people roaming the streets? It is truly scary down there.

Wow. Hardly one of the worst areas of town...

Agreed jbrown...and uh earlywine, have you driven around OCU...ever? Did you miss the crack houses just a few blocks north of the school? Just beacuse they have a house, doesn't mean they are safer. Why do you think OCU has more security guards per student than any other school in the state?

This is what bothers me about the whole thing. The economic situation is exactly the same as it was when they announced the plans. There has to be something else to this.

It is the coming collapse in the cost of higher education. The modern university model is built on debt and it is coming to an end real soon. What happened to housing industry is about to happen to higher education and some schools are getting ready for it, and some aren't.

http://reason.com/blog/2010/06/08/is-the-education-bubble-about

There is a reason the feds are taking over the student loan program. They know it is about to burst and don't want banks on the hook for billions in bad loans. Plus, it will allow the bubble to build just a little longer - but it will burst.

That would have left Sarkey empty. I don't know many universities that want empty buildings of that size.

I think the idea was to move/start theology in the Sarkey's building.

Well... most of the lawyers I see at librairies graduated before statehood.

Like I said, you don't need them much. Lawyers starting out that can't afford/don't want to spend money on expensive online research benefit greatly from habing free access to a law library.

Of course I have seen the rankings before and the tiers but in my mind, street cred isn't the best term to use. That's all I have to say, don't want this to be an argument about street cred/reputation.

I was speaking to the fact that OKCU Law led everyone to believe they were intent on moving downtown, and then abruptly pulled a 180. That's the street cred I meant. Next time they want to make a big move or something, people might remember, that's all.

As to their ranking, tiers, academic reputation, etc: that all speaks for itself.

I was speaking to the fact that OKCU Law led everyone to believe they were intent on moving downtown, and then abruptly pulled a 180.

They tied the move to certain events taking place and those events didn't take place. Be fair. The fact that people didn't pay attention to the details of the proposal is a reflection on them, not the University.

They tied the move to certain events taking place and those events didn't take place. Be fair. The fact that people didn't pay attention to the details of the proposal is a reflection on them, not the University.

How is that? The artcile, quoting president Henry, says it was an active decision to focus funds on scholarships and professors due to the economic downturn. That sounds like a 180 to me.

They tied the move to certain events taking place and those events didn't take place. Be fair. The fact that people didn't pay attention to the details of the proposal is a reflection on them, not the University.

What events didn't take place?

What events didn't take place?

See Number 21, as I understand it.

Here's the deal - I'm an alum and have been pretty close to certain faculty. If I hadn't read about this in the paper and on this board, I wouldn't have even known they were considering this. I contacted one of the professors who is involved in just about everything at the school and he didn't even know about it. I had to gave him a link so he could read it for himself. The staff hadn't even been brought into the loop when it was already being discussed in the press.

I went through the fund fraising for Sarkeys and this one didn't even get started compared to that. Some people were leaning that way but until I get a letter asking for money, as far as I am concerned, this was still in the realm of "do you guys think this is a good idea?" My personal belief is that no donors were interested and this never got any traction beyond hopes and dreams on the part of a small group. Whatever the community thought, a reading of what has been quoted in the press never said they were definitely going - it has been in the planning, consideration stage.

See Number 21, as I understand it.

Here's the deal - I'm an alum and have been pretty close to certain faculty. If I hadn't read about this in the paper and on this board, I wouldn't have even known they were considering this. I contacted one of the professors who is involved in just about everything at the school and he didn't even know about it. I had to gave him a link so he could read it for himself. The staff hadn't even been brought into the loop when it was already being discussed in the press.

I went through the fund fraising for Sarkeys and this one didn't even get started compared to that. Some people were leaning that way but until I get a letter asking for money, as far as I am concerned, this was still in the realm of "do you guys think this is a good idea?" My personal belief is that no donors were interested and this never got any traction beyond hopes and dreams on the part of a small group. Whatever the community thought, a reading of what has been quoted in the press never said they were definitely going - it has been in the planning, consideration stage.

You did not know they were considering what?? The move to downtown?

You did not know they were considering what?? The move to downtown?

I knew they were considering it because of what I read in the paper and from this board. When I contacted faculty to get the inside story (since I hadn't heard from the law school and I would expect to), the professor that I spoke to had not even heard about it. They hadn't even briefed the staff before they went public. Now, that was months ago and since that time they have been filled in. But I have not had any requests for funds (and this is highly unusual).

Anyway, here's a site, just if anyone is interested, about when they signed the notice of intent to negotiate. http://law.okcu.edu/index.php/hotnews/video/ocu-law-considering-a-plan-to-move-downtown/ That is pretty much as far as it has gone.

I am going to somewhat backtrack on my hard line about the school giving the wrong impression. My personal belief, is that a small group got out there without really covering their bases ahead of time. This is a really, really bad time to be hitting up donors. But they knew that last year.

I knew they were considering it because of what I read in the paper and from this board. When I contacted faculty to get the inside story (since I hadn't heard from the law school and I would expect to), the professor that I spoke to had not even heard about it. They hadn't even briefed the staff before they went public. Now, that was months ago and since that time they have been filled in. But I have not had any requests for funds (and this is highly unusual).

Anyway, here's a site, just if anyone is interested, about when they signed the notice of intent to negotiate. http://law.okcu.edu/index.php/hotnews/video/ocu-law-considering-a-plan-to-move-downtown/ That is pretty much as far as it has gone.

I am going to somewhat backtrack on my hard line about the school giving the wrong impression. My personal belief, is that a small group got out there without really covering their bases ahead of time. This is a really, really bad time to be hitting up donors. But they knew that last year.

Well I think the prof may just be out of the loop. There were feasibility studies done and I know someone that is starting there in the fall and at his summer intro gathering they mentioned that there was a good chance that by the time his class graduates they will be in the new building or at least starting the move. In the recent alumni magazine there was an article about the move downtown.

Signing a letter of intent to lease all that space is a pretty big move, Penny. That's beyond just spitballing, isn't it?

At any rate, I am still disappointed. I think it would have been awesome.

Signing a letter of intent to lease all that space is a pretty big move, Penny. That's beyond just spitballing, isn't it?

At any rate, I am still disappointed. I think it would have been awesome.

They signed a letter of intent with only an agreement to negotiate. So says the article. I am sorry the whole situation went the way it did. Personally, it matters not to me if it went downtown. I was too busy working to get an education and was glad it was close enough that I could balance family and school. I worked downtown in school and it honestly never crossed my mind that the school's current location was a drawback.

...As well as going thru the process of interviewing and selecting an architectural firm for the project.

...As well as going thru the process of interviewing and selecting an architectural firm for the project.

See, that's what I'm thinking. I see this as a COMPLETE reversal of policy, and I don't think it's any coincidence with OCU's new president coming in. The new guy hasn't been around in a while and he obviously doesn't have Tom McDaniel's commitment to downtown, although that could be spun as a good thing for OCU--fresh eyes, and willing to put OCU's needs ahead of downtown's. Though, I just thought Tom McDaniel did a LOT for OCU and was on to a really good idea.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Honestly, I'm surprised we are debating how seriously OCU was looking into this anyway. And it could have just been that OCU wasn't about to start a huge fundraising campaign until investments improved a little more because it wasn't necessary..they were going to be renting the facility from Fred Jones, who would renovate it for them. It was a heck of a deal.

They tied the move to certain events taking place and those events didn't take place. Be fair. The fact that people didn't pay attention to the details of the proposal is a reflection on them, not the University.

Which events didn't take place? It was tied to MAPS 3 passing (it did) and the Streetcar route connecting the Campus to the Fred Jones building (yet to be determined but with McDaniels as the head of the Citizen Oversight Committee, this one seemed to be in the bag.

See, that's what I'm thinking. I see this as a COMPLETE reversal of policy, and I don't think it's any coincidence with OCU's new president coming in. The new guy hasn't been around in a while and he obviously doesn't have Tom McDaniel's commitment to downtown, although that could be spun as a good thing for OCU--fresh eyes, and willing to put OCU's needs ahead of downtown's. Though, I just thought Tom McDaniel did a LOT for OCU and was on to a really good idea.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Honestly, I'm surprised we are debating how seriously OCU was looking into this anyway. And it could have just been that OCU wasn't about to start a huge fundraising campaign until investments improved a little more because it wasn't necessary..they were going to be renting the facility from Fred Jones, who would renovate it for them. It was a heck of a deal.

Exactly.

I agree with Spartan on this one. One president wanted it. The new one didn't.

And Penny, it's not just OCU Law's location that's meh. The facility is very meh, as well.

Here's a link to Steve's story in the Oklahoman back in Nov 09: http://newsok.com/ocu-officials-plan-to-move-law-school-downtown-to-fred-jones-plant/article/3418328

I agree with Spartan on this one. One president wanted it. The new one didn't.

And Penny, it's not just OCU Law's location that's meh. The facility is very meh, as well.

You'd have more to go on than I would since Sarkeys didn't open until after I left. I was still in the Gold Star building (but I loved it).

I agree with Spartan on this one. One president wanted it. The new one didn't.

And Penny, it's not just OCU Law's location that's meh. The facility is very meh, as well.

Sarkeys is not too bad, it is just not too nice either. Having a facility with the library attached would be nice to have. I never used the library after my 1L years, but maybe if it was attached I would have. (not that the gold star is far from Sarkeys, but I just never used it)

Gold Star is a very cool building. Even though it's older and the space isn't modern, it's a lot neater and has more character than Sarkey's. Sarkey's is just very blah. A new facility could have been awesome, and that space in Sarkey's could have been used easily by any number of lecture-based departments.

The Fred Jones plant would have a lot more similar to the Gold Star than Sarkey's.

Gold Star is a very cool building. Even though it's older and the space isn't modern, it's a lot neater and has more character than Sarkey's. Sarkey's is just very blah. A new facility could have been awesome, and that space in Sarkey's could have been used easily by any number of lecture-based departments.

Agreed as to Sarkeys and Gold Star. The later does have a lot of character and is actually very nice/neat/modern on the inside. I probably spent more time than DirtLaw in Gold Star as I took a couple classes which met there, not to mention Income Tax Law with its tax law scavenger hunts.

Sarkey's is very much 90's-institutional-generic-prefab-blah. It's a very nice, very functional building, I will say the courtrooms are very nice, but otherwise, it doesn't seem pretty or particularly well built.

As far as the location being "meh," I don't agree at all. OCU is by far closer to a larger number of legal practitioners than any other school in the state, not to mention within a short distance of the State Capitol and appellate courts. Would the other location have been better? Sure, but we'd only be going from best to far and away the best in that regard.

As far as the faculty being "meh," what do you base that on? I found most to be excellent in all respects. You couldn't hope for a better civil procedure prof than Creel. Heck.. my trial practice class was taught by none other than Bill Conger and Federal Magistrate, Hon. Valerie Couch (formerly of Hartzog, Conger, Cason and Neville).

Agreed as to Sarkeys and Gold Star. The later does have a lot of character and is actually very nice/neat/modern on the inside. I probably spent more time than DirtLaw in Gold Star as I took a couple classes which met there, not to mention Income Tax Law with its tax law scavenger hunts.

Sarkey's is very much 90's-institutional-generic-prefab-blah. It's a very nice, very functional building, I will say the courtrooms are very nice, but otherwise, it doesn't seem pretty or particularly well built.

As far as the location being "meh," I don't agree at all. OCU is by far closer to a larger number of legal practitioners than any other school in the state, not to mention within a short distance of the State Capitol and appellate courts. Would the other location have been better? Sure, but we'd only be going from best to far and away the best in that regard.

As far as the faculty being "meh," what do you base that on? I found most to be excellent in all respects. You couldn't hope for a better civil procedure prof than Creel. Heck.. my trial practice class was taught by none other than Bill Conger and Federal Magistrate, Hon. Valerie Couch (formerly of Hartzog, Conger, Cason and Neville).

I agree, there are some great faculty at the school ... but there are also some weak links, but you will have that at any school. I had trial practice with Conger and Judge Couch as well, and someone would be hard pressed to find a better trial prep type class anywhere in the country. The quality of both Conger and Judge Couch were amazing and OCU students had a unique opportunity to learn from the best.

I don't want to get into besmirching individual profs. It'll suffice to say that:

A. You selected a prof that isn't full-time faculty and a course that is an elective.
B. Conger is a complete stud, but he is the exception and not the norm.
C. Selecting a one-off course and instructor (that, to be fair, is more like an adjunct in his teaching capacity), hardly, HARDLY makes a compelling argument that "most" of OKCU Law's faculty is "excellent."
D. The administration isn't all the great either, save Conger. Who REALLY, technically, is probably considered administration of the university at-large. Not the law school.

And I don't want to bash on OKCU Law. Good attorneys hail from OCU and it's good for what it is. Let's just not let our imaginations run wild about what it is, that's all. And let's not spread misinformation to our OKCTalk brethren, either. OCU Law has massive, massive room for improvement, and a forward-thinking new facility could have been pretty awesome.

Edit: Also, I'm not trying to tell anyone how their experience was at OKCU, or whether or not you can be successful coming from OKCU.

I don't want to get into besmirching individual profs. It'll suffice to say that:

A. You selected a prof that isn't full-time faculty and a course that is an elective.
B. Conger is a complete stud, but he is the exception and not the norm.
C. Selecting a one-off course and instructor (that, to be fair, is more like an adjunct in his teaching capacity), hardly, HARDLY makes a compelling argument that "most" of OKCU Law's faculty is "excellent."
D. The administration isn't all the great either, save Conger. Who REALLY, technically, is probably considered administration of the university at-large. Not the law school.

And I don't want to bash on OKCU Law. Good attorneys hail from OCU and it's good for what it is. Let's just not let our imaginations run wild about what it is, that's all. And let's not spread misinformation to our OKCTalk brethren, either. OCU Law has massive, massive room for improvement, and a forward-thinking new facility could have been pretty awesome.

Edit: Also, I'm not trying to tell anyone how their experience was at OKCU, or whether or not you can be successful coming from OKCU.

Your post is funny ... I do not think that either of us that mentioned Conger's class said, or implied that he was the norm. Not sure why you feel the need to make it clear about the fact that you think the faculty is lacking. What does it really matter what law school you graduated from? After your first job, which not everyone is worried about, it all rests on what kind of work you produce for your clients ... not where you went to school or who taught your Civ Pro II class.

Your post is funny ... I do not think that either of us that mentioned Conger's class said, or implied that he was the norm. Not sure why you feel the need to make it clear about the fact that you think the faculty is lacking. What does it really matter what law school you graduated from? After your first job, which not everyone is worried about, it all rests on what kind of work you produce for your clients ... not where you went to school or who taught your Civ Pro II class.

Actually, I backed off slamming the faculty in my post, didn't I? Mid asked where I get my "meh" attitude, and I said there was no need for me to dig on the faculty.

And yes, until you're partner-level, it matters greatly where you went to law school. Rule of thumb: people that say "it doesn't matter where you went to law school" aren't proud of their law school. (For example, you won't hear many people that went to UT Law or Duke say that it isn't important where they went...) Mid is very proud of his education, and his education shines through when he speaks so eloquently on researched legal topics. You, however, don't seem so proud.


At any rate, let's get back on topic. This is pointless.

No need to get defensive.

Actually, I backed off slamming the faculty in my post, didn't I? Mid asked where I get my "meh" attitude, and I said there was no need for me to dig on the faculty.

And yes, until you're partner-level, it matters greatly where you went to law school. Rule of thumb: people that say "it doesn't matter where you went to law school" aren't proud of their law school. (For example, you won't hear many people that went to UT Law or Duke say that it isn't important where they went...) Mid is very proud of his education, and his education shines through when he speaks so eloquently on researched legal topics. You, however, don't seem so proud.


At any rate, let's get back on topic. This is pointless.

No need to get defensive.

It is not that I am proud or not proud ... it is irrelevant. Law school was a means to an end, that is all. Where I went to law school had ZERO relevance to where I ended up working, so to say that until you are partner level it matters is not completely accurate for everyone. Some people get jobs for other reasons than where they went to law school. Some people just did not want to go to OU, or (fill in the blank). Not everyone in this state desires to go to OU if they are going to law school.

If you are 5-10 years out of law school and relying on where you went to law school to help you out rather than your work product that is probably not a good thing. If you have been practicing and have some real experience and have clients and other lawyers that like you and would recommend you and you are interviewing against someone that has rested on the fact that they went to OU, who do you think will get the job?? Or even if all things are equal after 5-10 years, it will come down to which person interviewing the person hiring likes better, not where they went to school.

This is pointless.

Amen. This has almost devolved to my daddy can beat up your daddy.. or faculty as it were.

As to the subject at hand, am I disappointed about what I'm assuming is Henry's decision to keep the school on campus? Hell yes. Am I surprised? No. As I believe I've said before, the school relies on the law and business schools to fund the scholarships of the undergrads. Enrollment at the business school has plummeted due to the lack of foreign students. That means the school is going to be relying on the law school more as its cash cow than it did before, consequently, they aren't going to be spending any serious money there for awhile.

It's a business move. It's not like the move downtown would bump OCU up a tier or something.

I hate to admit it because I thought the idea was so cool, but really the oomph-per-dollar just wasn't there, like Mid said.

(Don't forget all those performing arts programs that need a little extra funding than your typical lecture course, too!)

It is not that I am proud or not proud ... it is irrelevant. Law school was a means to an end, that is all. Where I went to law school had ZERO relevance to where I ended up working, so to say that until you are partner level it matters is not completely accurate for everyone. Some people get jobs for other reasons than where they went to law school. Some people just did not want to go to OU, or (fill in the blank). Not everyone in this state desires to go to OU if they are going to law school.

If you are 5-10 years out of law school and relying on where you went to law school to help you out rather than your work product that is probably not a good thing. If you have been practicing and have some real experience and have clients and other lawyers that like you and would recommend you and you are interviewing against someone that has rested on the fact that they went to OU, who do you think will get the job?? Or even if all things are equal after 5-10 years, it will come down to which person interviewing the person hiring likes better, not where they went to school.

OK, you win. The academic portion of your resume is completely irrelevant. Can we move on now?

Special Announcement from Dean Hellman
July 21st, 2010 by Nathan Gunter

To the OCU LAW Community:

The university’s announcement last week that OCU has ended consideration of moving the law school to the Fred Jones Building in downtown Oklahoma City came as a disappointment to many within the law school community. I want to provide some perspective on this development.

While there was considerable excitement about the prospect of moving the law school to a refurbished Fred Jones Building, it was clear from the beginning that this was strictly a concept to be explored, not a definite plan. The feasibility, practicality, and affordability of this project had to be considered carefully before a decision could be made to move forward. As I said last November in my announcement of the possible move, “At this point, we have a Letter of Intent to negotiate; we do not have an agreement.”

My announcement last November also listed a number of conditions that would have to be met before the university could go forward with the move, including that financing the project would not impose undue burdens on law students or the law school’s operating budget.

Our university’s leadership has now concluded that the scale of the financial commitment that the university would have to make in order to undertake this project is more than prudently can be undertaken in the current and foreseeable economic circumstances facing American higher education.

I was among the many people in the law school and general communities who were enthusiastic about the potential for this relocation possibility. However, I share in President Henry’s first and foremost concern for the fiscal health of our institution.

We should all be encouraged by President Henry’s statement last week that budget dollars and fundraising efforts should focus on creating more scholarships for our students and the resources necessary to continue to attract and retain an outstanding faculty. It is, after all, great students and faculty who combine with dedicated administrators and staff to make a truly great law school. Focusing on our human resources will make the law school stronger and enhance the value of the OCU LAW degree for our alumni.

Our law school continues to find energy and momentum in the growing slate of clinical, externship, certificate, and international programs that we are pursuing. As ever, the daily life of the law school is invigorated by the role it plays as an integral part of the legal community.

Our close relationships with the bench and bar, combined with our campus location so near to downtown and the state capitol, create many advantages that we will continue to develop for the benefit of OCU LAW students.

~Larry Hellman

http://law.okcu.edu/index.php/hotnews/news/special-announcement-from-dean-hellman/

Grimes, whose company has seven offices nationwide and is based in Tulsa, said the state's two largest cities are outperforming all other areas. The company's three Oklahoma City projects currently employ about 900 people.
Even as the cranes reflect Oklahoma's status as a relative oasis in the desert, Grimes is quick to admit the company isn't spared the pain of the national economy.
"We're blessed to have what we have," Grimes said. "But even with this work, our revenue is down and we've seen a 30 percent drop."
The tough economy's pinch included the cancellation of plans by Oklahoma City University to renovate the Fred Jones factory downtown and turn it into a law school — a job that was on Flintco's list of future work.
Grimes also has noticed an influx of subcontractors from Arkansas and Texas bidding on Oklahoma jobs.
Oklahoma's construction industry, Grimes said, is getting noticed "too much."
"They're hungry out there," Grimes said. "When bidding, we get responses from 10 masonry companies when there were three."
Of the top 100 contractors in the country, eight are working in Oklahoma, Grimes said.
"We still need more work," he said. "And we're bidding on quite a bit."
The cranes, Grimes said, show Oklahoma has a pulse. "Don't be surprised if we see more (cranes) in the future."


Read more: http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-city-skyline-fills-with-tower-cranes-as-the-city-goes-against-the-odds-in-economic-downturn/article/3478468?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0uQECDdC U

Agreed jbrown...and uh earlywine, have you driven around OCU...ever? Did you miss the crack houses just a few blocks north of the school? Just beacuse they have a house, doesn't mean they are safer. Why do you think OCU has more security guards per student than any other school in the state?

Well now you're talking about my neighborhood and exaggerating. While I wouldn't go for a leisurely walk after dark, it's hardly what you describe.

It makes a big difference what block you're in....but there is some major crap around OCU. Just take a look around at how many houses are litterally falling down. You can go right up Blackwelder and see a ton of them. I did that every day I went to OCU. You've got Putnam Heights and Military Park around there. Those areas are not the same at all. But heck, all you have to do is cross the street from OCU to see some of the crap that is around there.

Roofs that are so warped, you can see the indentations. Siding falling off, entire brick walls falling off the side of houses, porches missing parts. I'm using these as examples I've seen myself in my every day driving. So I would describe it exactlly as what I did.

And more to the point, if you talk to the teachers at Putnam Heights Elementary, just up Blackwelder, they'll tell you that the parents that actually live IN Putnam Heights usually send their kids to the private schools across Classen. Also, the kids that attend that elementary school are pretty rough. That's right out of the horses mouth, I'm not just rambling off here bud.

Well, people who are in construction work should monitor that neighborhood for for rent signs, call the number and offer to make a deal to fix up the house. But then that neighborhood you describe may already be too far gone. So maybe some house owners should just bulldoze off the houses, put in parking lots and charge $250 or more a space per semester. Is finding parking a problem at OCU? My comments are based on my impressions of how the story goes sometimes in the neighborhoods next to OSU, so it may not be easily applied to OCU.