Is that a parking structure in the background of this photo? That would be nice, especially when they have large events taking place. Parking has been a nightmare in the past.

http://www.okctalk.com/attachments/development-buildings/6335d1390494800-whitewater-facility-whitewatermodel.jpg

None of the plans so far has had structured parking, I think it is one of the couple times they have looked at where they would like to attract a hotel.

None of the plans so far has had structured parking, I think it is one of the couple times they have looked at where they would like to attract a hotel.

Right, that's a conceptual plan for a hotel. They would like to attract one somewhere done the line.

I think like someone has said, that would be the location for a Great Wolf Lodge. Not saying that Okc gets a GWL, just that the it's on the wishlist.

Bids coming in between $37 and $45 million. Much higher than the expected $24.

OKC whitewater project bids come in high | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/okc-whitewater-project-bids-come-in-high/article/5072811)

^

How on earth do you mis-estimate by that much??

I'm sure this facility will get built by I worry other projects may be cut.

^

How on earth do you mis-estimate by that much??

I'm sure this facility will get built by I worry other projects may be cut.

Specifically sidewalks and trails. I really think that $30 million Mick is earmarking for moving the power station needs to be partially used for this.

I am all about shopping local, but maybe we need to go outside of the locality (is that even a word?) to get a better bid. How much was the one in NC built for and what would that equate to in 2015 numbers?

I'm a little concerned that there were only 3 bids.

Well, it's not like there's a whitewater facility like we are asking for in every state, right? I just figure it's a niche request...

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

I would be fine with this.

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

I don't think that Steve wants you quoting his chat transcript.

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

It not just OKC. It seems common practice is to underestimate cost and overestimate revenue.

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

Because it is often those that are doing the estimates are not as qualified to do them as some may think.

OKC is one of the few cities that hard bids every public project, regardless of scope and complexity. This is what can happen when that's the case. Hard bidding, or looking for the cheapest bid, is not always the best answer. Often, complicated projects such as this, need to be approached from an integrated project delivery methodology. That's when you can pre-qualify reputable builders, select a winner based on qualifications and past performance, and they collaborate throughout the process with the architects, engineers, and owner, all pulling on the same rope to achieve a successful design that is within budget. Jim Couch is against that methodology, as are some others. The idea has been recommended to them many times, but they refuse to listen. It is a misperception to think that the lowest bid is the best way to proceed on all projects. Had this project been procured through an integrated approach, or construction management at risk, there would not be such embarrassment. Projects like Whitewater and the Convention Center should never be hard bid. You will not find many, if any, large cities hard bidding a $250m convention center. Projects less complicated like the senior wellness centers and Expo Centers are probably fine to hard bid.

These bids are an embarrassment and clearly shows a lack of communication of those involved on this project. They will either have to come up the difference and move forward with the low bidder, or, reduce scope and redesign and reissue for bid. That just costs everyone involved time and money, not to mention creates an atmosphere of finger pointing as to whom is responsible for allowing the budget to double.

It not just OKC. It seems common practice is to underestimate cost and overestimate revenue.

If realistic costs and revenues were reported, half of these developments would not leaving the starting gate.

Specifically sidewalks and trails. I really think that $30 million Mick is earmarking for moving the power station needs to be partially used for this.

I am all about shopping local, but maybe we need to go outside of the locality (is that even a word?) to get a better bid. How much was the one in NC built for and what would that equate to in 2015 numbers?

The $30 million is a part of the contingency fund; sales tax collection are slightly ahead of schedule. Let's get it done...

2006: The facility cost $38 million to build, and costs $6.8 million per year to operate.[2] The river channels were designed by three-time Olympian Scott Shipley.[3]


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/US_National_Whitewater_Center_course_map.svg/525px-US_National_Whitewater_Center_course_map.svg.png

Here are some specs on the N.C. facility in Charlotte: The whitewater portion of the river has a total of 3,750 feet (1,140 m) of channel divided between two channels: the Olympic-standard slalom competition channel and the longer wilderness channel, which splits around an island at the top.

Source: U.S. National Whitewater Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._National_Whitewater_Center)

Will ours be bigger or smaller than Charlottes?

Will ours be bigger or smaller than Charlottes?

Kinda depends on what is considered. The competition channels lengths are pretty close, their recreation channel is a little longer. Their's has a larger area footprint (if we are only considering the whitewater park verses including the rowing parts of the district) but a lot of that extra space in their's is the islands of which people only use for trails and the pools at the top and bottom take up more space (I guess it does provide a more natural aesthetic on the recreation channel too though). Plus a lot of the non whitewater amenities in their whitewater park are things we already have in other parts of the Boathouse district.

my aunt read about this in the paper the other day and I had to still explain to her that it's not another White Water theme park... People know about this but they don't know...

From Steve's chat this morning:

My first question out of the gate: What is your take on the whitewater rafting facility coming in over budget? Do you think the city will take bids from non-local companies to try to get the cost down? If the cost ends up being at the low end of the bids ($37 million) what does the city do? Maybe this could be a push to get the $30 million earmarked for moving the substation adjacent to the park to be used more wisely.

Bill Crum's (Steve's guest) response:

BILL: As far as whether taking bids from out of state, they had lots of interest but they only got these three. They are allowed to take bids from out of state. They only got these three. The mayor said today you make the White Water center all that it's supposed to be and you look at the other amenities planned and decide what to do. Basically, he said you face giving up other stuff to get the White Water center done.

STEVE: So Bill, does that mean the grandstands and wind screens could be trimmed down or eliminated?

BILL: Yes. People are already talking about spectators preferring to sit in the grass along the river instead of a hot grandstand. So I suspect the grandstands could end up dead. And they've already put off the wind screens pending completion of the white water center.

Bill / People.... This is what happens when we "Okie Down" a project. Just becuase they sell "cammo" lawn chairs in Bass Pro does not mean I want to use them at a US Rowing Event. Does my grandmother have to sit on the slippery grassy slope too ???

This project MUST have structure. The Grandstand provides that. This is not All Sports Stadium with a grass , red dirt hill. Who is the dumb okie that is suggesting this ??? Please.... The problem is not the the cost of this project, the problem is the dumb okie that always under estimates these things.

Do NOT Okie Down another MAPS project. This is the "why" we have MAPS in the first place. To take projects ( Out of Committee ) and be successful. The Grandstands provide a level of "completion" to the river complex. The south side of the river needs just as much "attention" as the north side. I'm not saying have any boathouses, I'm just saying it needs to have the same level of professional attention to detail as the North side. ..a slippery grassy slope just lets the south wind blow grass and dirt in your face when you are watching these events.

Mayor, don't let this happen. Finish it w/ the same detail. Let's think bigger than a few people sitting in a cammo chair. :)

Did you loan Chris your password?

We have to have the money to build the grandstands. That's how MAPS is structured. I agree that it's more important to properly build the whitewater facility than to have grandstands. If for some reason sales tax collections are higher than expected the next few years we can always add them back in. Or, they can be put into a MAPS 4 package early in the timeline. I'd rather have less built well than more built on the cheap.

my aunt read about this in the paper the other day and I had to still explain to her that it's not another White Water theme park... People know about this but they don't know...my grandmother said the same thing.

I am confuzzled why it seems that this is an ongoing situation in the metro. Doesn't matter if you say sidewalks, or white water, or project 180, or other.

Why is it that people who estimate for a living appear to be not so great at what they are supposed to do?

Except when the cameras are rolling all that the city leadership have to say on the matter is what a great job they do. Jim Couch spent 10 min praising the accuracy of the city's economic forecasters when approving the new FY budget.

i'd say its usually a case of " easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" once the public is excited about a project and see renderings then they buy into the budget more so than the price tag being accurate from the start. just my opinion

I know where the City can get $5 million easy - it's the same $5 million they pledged to the AICC as a 'private donation'. I agree with OKvision4U, at some point dragging your own lawn chair to an event has to stop, especially at a facility with year around activities. If it was a one-off or annual type event then fine, bring your own chair, but there are events here on a regular basis. Bringing your own chair every time isn't acceptable.

^ Especially if we are trying to build a walkable city.

I'm not walking a lawn chair with me half a mile (or more) to the river. And I'm not setting said lawn chair next to me at a restaurant if I take a detour or change my mind and go see a movie with a friend I bumped into on the street.

I know where the City can get $5 million easy - it's the same $5 million they pledged to the AICC as a 'private donation'. I agree with OKvision4U, at some point dragging your own lawn chair to an event has to stop, especially at a facility with year around activities. If it was a one-off or annual type event then fine, bring your own chair, but there are events here on a regular basis. Bringing your own chair every time isn't acceptable.

I thought you meant that the city keeps bringing lawn chairs to it's own event (the AICC) but I suppose you weren't speaking metaphorically and just meant the grandstands.

I thought you meant that the city keeps bringing lawn chairs to it's own event (the AICC) but I suppose you weren't speaking metaphorically and just meant the grandstands.

Let me clarify. The City needs more money for the Boathouse District attractions. the City also pledged $5 million in 'private funds' to the AICC. Since the AICC isn't going to be finished just take that $5 million and switch it to the Boathouse grandstand project. People should not have to bring their own lawn chairs to events at the river. There could be a place for people who want to do that, but not everyone should have to. As catch22 was saying, people in The Edge should not have to bring furniture with them on the streetcar to attend an event on the river. Situations like this are a constant reminder that despite the rhetoric of local politicians, they don't seem to fully understand what 'walkable' means or what urban living is all about.

I'd just say it means that there's not enough funding available for everything they want to do. Remember that they planned to have seating. They're just experiencing cost overruns.

Let me clarify. The City needs more money for the Boathouse District attractions. the City also pledged $5 million in 'private funds' to the AICC. Since the AICC isn't going to be finished just take that $5 million and switch it to the Boathouse grandstand project. People should not have to bring their own lawn chairs to events at the river. There could be a place for people who want to do that, but not everyone should have to. As catch22 was saying, people in The Edge should not have to bring furniture with them on the streetcar to attend an event on the river. Situations like this are a constant reminder that despite the rhetoric of local politicians, they don't seem to fully understand what 'walkable' means or what urban living is all about.

I was just joking, actually..

From NewsOK:


Bids for MAPS 3 expo center come in under estimate
Oklahoma City officials received a dose of much-needed good news on Thursday when bids for the MAPS 3 expo center came in under estimate. The meeting to unseal the bids came a week after bids on a planned white water center on the Oklahoma River were unsealed and came in several million dollars over estimate. A story will be posted soon.

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 expo center bids come in under estimates | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5115536)

when was the estimate for the whitewater facility calculated?

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 expo center bids come in under estimates | News OK (http://newsok.com/article/5115536)

One thing to keep in mind is not to get too excited by a bid that comes in way under budget. The same thing happened with MAPS and the Arena. Came in way under and they discovered a mistake, trying to keep costs under control, they value engineered it and cut a list of 20 or so amenities (many latter added back in with the NBA tax) and the Arena still came in over budget.

To earlier posts...in defense of the City, they do an excellent job of projecting long-term revenue (short-term can be tricky, i.e., NBA tax). It is the cost side of the equation where they have more trouble.

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

IIRC, Flintco did it for what they bid, 64 million. They just didn't work overtime.

Discussions continue on Oklahoma City whitewater park | News OK (http://newsok.com/discussions-continue-on-oklahoma-city-whitewater-park-as-bids-come-in-high/article/5142604)

Pretty sure the low bid on the arena was honored as bid. The contractor's estimator failed to include a major cost (got him fired). But they didn't cut any amenities.

I can't locate the particular article that mentioned it, but a few mentioned that to keep costs under control, they cut certain things (not enumerated but seems like there were 20+) and decided to build it "builder's white" since we didn't have a tenant. It was the City's stated intent to eventually have the cost of those amenities paid for by the tenant. The City didn't stick to that announced intent as we split the cost with the 89ers/Redhawks and paid for all of it with the Sonics/Thunder


IIRC, Flintco did it for what they bid, 64 million. They just didn't work overtime.

Don't know if the scope of work changed or what happened exactly, but between the bid and the final cost, that is an increase $22.9M (over the bid amount).

Council launches $64.8 million arena, Journal Record, 4/7/99
This budget gap was even more pronounced than what Voter's were told pre-vote…

The 1st number under each project/date opened is the amount voters were told just prior to the election, except as noted, come from an Oklahoman article, Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan (Oklahoman, 11/14/93). The 2nd amount is the Final Cost from the City’s Website. Amounts in red are the $$$ amount it went over.

Ford Center (2002)
The Ford gets rather convoluted with the numbers. There were the Voters Told ($78.9), Budgeted amounts (after the vote, $74.8), bid amounts that went even lower ($64.8M), then estimates that were as high as $93M for a "complete" Arena at one point).

$78.9M (pre-vote)
$87.7M (final cost)
---------
$8.8M (over)

Construction cost projecting is not an easy task. There are so many people, companies, factories and suppliers involved in large projects it's just a dart board guess without firm numbers. Even with firm quotes from subs and suppliers, it's still not easy.

On the arena:

Oklahoma City leaders, recognizing a bargain, eagerly approved a $64.8 million bid to Flintco for construction of a downtown arena Tuesday.
The bid is more than $10 million less than had been budgeted for what is the largest single public works project in the city's history.
The bid is good news for the city's downtown improvement efforts, since the arena is the largest of the nine Metropolitan Area Projects.
Flintco's bid, however, was millions under prices submitted by competitors, and company officials have told The Oklahoman their bid contained a "significant" error.
The error was never identified, and Flintco decided two weeks ago to stick by its bid.
"We are excited about the project. We're not looking back, we're looking forward," Flintco Vice President Mark Grimes said.

<snip>

The $64,858,568 bid includes all but six of 27 alternate items attached to the project. The alternates were portions of the job that could have been trimmed to save money.
The rejected alternates include a visitors' locker room, administrative offices, a parking lot, street lighting, a shared plaza with the nearby Myriad and temperature controls.
The city staff recommended delaying a decision on the locker room and administrative offices until a lease is signed with a tenant. The parking lot, lighting and plaza were delayed due to the possible construction of a hotel south of the Myriad and east of the arena.

City Grabs Bargain For Arena Construction | News OK (http://newsok.com/city-grabs-bargain-for-arena-construction/article/2648662)

Even though cost does exceed expectations, this project needs to move forward.

Agreed

Agreed as well.

Moving forward is not in question. I know the low bidder is working hard to find VE for the city. Contrary to popular belief, this has nothing to do with bid padding. In fact, on a lot of these major projects you'll see very slim margins just to get your name associated with the job.

Did someone ever answer when this estimate was given? Was it in 2008/2009? If so, costs have changed dramatically. Back then you had a lot of hungry contractors, now not so much.

It's like any estimation. Remember the general estimate for the new I-40? It happens.

I agree that this isn't easy. But it is their job.

Not trying to derail the thread, but getting back to the point of not getting real excited when a bid comes in way over or under, as it did happen with MAPS. While looking for the article I was thinking of, ran across others that mentioned a couple of other projects came in under bid but every MAPS project came in costing more than what the Voters were told. Individually, some projects costing more than double (and substantially less project, i.e., the Canal). Collectively, some 47% more.



…
<snip>

The $64,858,568 bid includes all but six of 27 alternate items attached to the project. The alternates were portions of the job that could have been trimmed to save money.
The rejected alternates include a visitors' locker room, administrative offices, a parking lot, street lighting, a shared plaza with the nearby Myriad and temperature controls.
The city staff recommended delaying a decision on the locker room and administrative offices until a lease is signed with a tenant. The parking lot, lighting and plaza were delayed due to the possible construction of a hotel south of the Myriad and east of the arena.

City Grabs Bargain For Arena Construction | News OK (http://newsok.com/city-grabs-bargain-for-arena-construction/article/2648662)

They rejected "temperature controls"? I presume that means air conditioning & heating? LOL

Thanks for the other article, as it seems to enumerate what the Journal Record article I had, didn't.

MAPS arena cost estimate up millions (Journal Record)

The MAPS indoor sports arena, which was to have cost $84 million, is topping out at $93 million for "a whole structure," the MAPS Citizens Oversight Board was told Thursday.
Tom Gunning, project director for Oklahoma City-based The Benham Group, said the "base" building alone will cost $71.2 million -- well within the fixed limit of construction of $74.9 million mandated by the city.
However, that base building does not include a list of 22 alternates -- items the city would like to have included -- which add $6.7 million to the base price.
The group also left out millions from the base building that would be included or paid for by others at a later time. The architects got their costs down to the base price they did by deleting construction items from the original project definition and by deleting other items such as the scoreboard system, build-out costs of suites, sitework that will be performed by "others," and additional items. Under questioning from MAPS board members, Gunning confirmed that "a whole building" ready to go would cost about $93 million.

They rejected "temperature controls"? I presume that means air conditioning & heating? LOL


Yep. Controls for the heating and air conditioning equipment. That would be the equivalent of the thermostat installation for your home system but frequently much more complicated, usually with computer interface, sometimes with lighting control, security and other building systems integration. That's a building specialty all by itself and usually done in larger buildings by a subcontractor/supplier like Honeywell, Johnson Controls, Automated Building Systems, Siemens etc, who did not build or install the heating and air equipment. (Although some heat and air equipment manufacturers, like Trane, make equipment and contract for the temperature control part too.)

The building has to have something to control HVAC, so it shows up in alternates for various reasons. It could have been the alternate added options to the control system. The owner (or design team) might have had a preference for one brand and had specified one brand, but listed other manufacturer's systems as alternates to look at how much up or down that preference cost. Could be the base bid was made up of dumb, stand alone per component controls and the alternate was to substitute an automated system approach. Or for other reasons.

Seriously, Larry?

You only come out when the subject has to do with tax dollars. If I shat tax dollars, you'd be right behind me trying to collect! Sorry, it's just true...


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Oklahoma City whitewater park plan moves one step closer | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-whitewater-park-plan-moves-one-step-closer/article/5196487)


An advisory panel recommended Wednesday that Oklahoma City accept a contractor’s offer to build the MAPS 3 whitewater recreation center for $33.4 million, nearly $13.6 million more than anticipated.

Project managers propose making up the difference by putting off spending on windscreens and other Oklahoma River improvements, and by finding $2.9 million in savings during construction.

If the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board agrees Thursday, the city council would be asked to award the contract. Getting started now would preserve Oklahoma City’s opportunity to host the U.S. Olympic canoeing and kayaking trials in 2016.

At this point... call of the windscreens and grandstand, but build this thing and do it right. Also identify future(and by future, I mean in less the three years) funding for the grandstand and windscreen immediately.

More money out of your magic wallet? Or maybe we should buy some geese that lay golden eggs. If we had a whole farm of them we'd never have to worry about money again!

More money out of your magic wallet? Or maybe we should buy some geese that lay golden eggs. If we had a whole farm of them we'd never have to worry about money again!yeah bro... I'm paying for that as well. I also have identified a special place in my wallet that contains magical funding for the new multi-billion dollar airport I am going to build and the new 20 lane highway on I-35. See the highway will have 5 lanes each way on the bottom... 2 hov lanes each way and 3 elevated lanes with no speed limit. every single road will be a 5 stack interchange so no stop lights!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and the river will include a 76 story grandstand so you can everything that is going on.

Sweet! Solid plan for sure.

Sweet! Solid plan for sure.thanks man! I'm actually going to call the capitol right now and demand this plan be taken seriosuly and put on a satea question. These are hard times but I believe in the plan. I have it all prepared to... if this plan doesn't work we just come up with plan b which is come up with plan c

I think we should build a super tall water slide that goes from here to Colorado. I'd ride that in a heartbeat. Charge $500 per and we can afford anything (after we pay it off of course). Sound familiar?

I think we should build a super tall water slide that goes from here to Colorado. I'd ride that in a heartbeat. Charge $500 per and we can afford anything (after we pay it off of course). Sound familiar?

You get off the slide at a wind farm in eastern Colorado and you say: "I didn't pay 500 dollars to be in Kansas"

Damn those engineers!

You get off the slide at a wind farm in eastern Colorado and you say: "I didn't pay 500 dollars to be in Kansas"

Followed by "I expected the Rocky Mountains to be a little rockier than this. That John Denver’s full of ****, man."


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Whitewater Park Plan Moves One Step Closer - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/26285440/whitewater-park-plan-moves-one-step-closer)

Go ahead and skip the comments section.