The city would have to start managing the whitewater facility and other river attractions or find another operator.

The bottom line is the City is always going to be on the hook for what these 3rd parties do (like the fairgrounds, Myriad Gardens Foundation, etc.) and there is zero transparency on any of this and the only reason this is coming out now is because there is a big problem.
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History has taught us over and over again that covering for mistakes only works when you luck out and have extra money. When things trend the other way, that's when disaster hits because you don't have extra money to cover things up.

Hmm... very, very interesting. Thanks for staying on these stories and reporting them! These agencies must be good stewards of the citizen's money or we risk not being able to pass another MAPS project.

Anyone care to guess the salary of Mike Knopp who heads the Boathouse Foundation?

(As a nonprofit they have to file tax returns and list key salaries, all of which becomes public.)

Anyone care to guess the salary of Mike Knopp who heads the Boathouse Foundation?

(As a nonprofit they have to file tax returns and list key salaries, all of which becomes public.)

Alright Pete, spill. The suspense is killing us.

In the 2016 return (waiting on 2017 numbers) his salary was $221,923.

Plus benefits.


For perspective, City Manager Jim Couch -- who has been on the job 18 years and manages almost 5,000 employees -- just got a raise to $251K.

So that does not include his OCU salary either, correct?

So that does not include his OCU salary either, correct?

I was not aware he was still getting paid in that capacity. I suspect that is rolled into this number if he is because the tax filings require you to report "related income" and there was none for Knopp.

How much do you imagine he was getting paid by OCU prior to the foundation gig?

Anyone care to guess the salary of Mike Knopp who heads the Boathouse Foundation?

(As a nonprofit they have to file tax returns and list key salaries, all of which becomes public.)

and the dude is out there locking gates and doors at the end of the day. broken down hourly he's probably underpaid.

I think within this district you have some REALLY passionate folks about the sport and mission, but maybe not the best to run the operation. the district is absolutely an economic driver for the city, it's in the best interest to put some folks in place to make sure it stays operationally sound and also share the passion of the sport.

i kinda akin the whole district to a kid who is really into something (this case, rowing/canoe/kayak) who has trust fund parents (i.e. Chesapeake, et al) and comes up with really cool stuff and events, but doesn't quite know how to run it all.

They need to find more ways to make money. The High Performance Center is an AWESOME gym, I worked out there for a while because I worked just across the river from there. However, the hours are wonky because of when they block if off for high performance athletes only. I feel they could open that up a bit and at least grab some of the gym seeking crowd that works downtown.

FYI - Cyber Monday - BOGO on Riversport Day Passes..... Makes it only $25 per person for tons of family fun.

https://estore.riversportokc.org/estore/Content/Commerce/Products/DisplayProducts.aspx?ProductGroupCode=2025&ProductCategoryCode=2147

FYI - Cyber Monday - BOGO on Riversport Day Passes..... Makes it only $25 per person for tons of family fun.

https://estore.riversportokc.org/estore/Content/Commerce/Products/DisplayProducts.aspx?ProductGroupCode=2025&ProductCategoryCode=2147

The discount doesn't show up when you select two, do you just get two for every day pass you buy? or when does the discount show up?

NVM i see it showing up in the cart now.

50% off season passes for a limited time...’

https://www.riversportokc.org/passes/season/

50% off season passes for a limited time...’

https://www.riversportokc.org/passes/season/

Thanks for the heads up. I just bought two Epic passes. My son and I plan on using it a lot this summer.

Quote from the Oklahoman today on the city council. Not good for this MAPS project.

“The council voted 8-1 to transfer up to $1.5 million over the next nine months to the Boathouse Foundation, which operates, manages and maintains the $46.2 million MAPS 3 whitewater park under terms of an agreement with the city.”

“The whitewater park and related Riversport Adventures attractions on the Oklahoma River have operating losses, contributing to the nonprofit foundation's cash flow problems.”

https://oklahoman.com/article/5642200/council-gives-maps-4-final-ok

It's been said before, but this area needs more life. There's land there that could be developed. The area needs mixed use developments that include hotel, residential, and retail (maybe even water sport related) to bring consistent life to the area. A restaurant/bar/volleyball facility would be a great fit down here... Tulsa has one in a far worse location. It can feel really dead around Boathouse Row at times, which I think hurts all the attractions. It doesn't help that Rand Elliott didn't design functional sidewalks or trees into his modernist landscape too.

I agree. I'm thinking big wave pool/lazy river like at Disney.

Im wondering how things were so mis-calculated that the whole district is in such a financial nosedive. If the city or donors are paying for the construction, how are they hemorrhaging this badly for only operating expenses?????? What is going on here? I'm almost wondering if this is going to have to end up as part of Parks and Rec to be able to stay afloat.

Dan, you nailed it. The city needs to bring in some other "life" to this area desperately.

Im wondering how things were so mis-calculated that the whole district is in such a financial nosedive. If the city or donors are paying for the construction, how are they hemorrhaging this badly for only operating expenses?????? What is going on here? I'm almost wondering if this is going to have to end up as part of Parks and Rec to be able to stay afloat.

If you go back to the time of MAPS3 proposals, this was a time when the district was heavily subsidized by large donors such as Aubrey. I suspect being without such donations as a backstop was completely unexpected at the time.

Im wondering how things were so mis-calculated that the whole district is in such a financial nosedive. If the city or donors are paying for the construction, how are they hemorrhaging this badly for only operating expenses?????? What is going on here? I'm almost wondering if this is going to have to end up as part of Parks and Rec to be able to stay afloat.

It would be nice if more people actually used it instead of just talking about how great it is to have such a thing. I never see that many people using the rapids or the zip line etc. we want nice toys here but only as show pieces.

If you go back to the time of MAPS3 proposals, this was a time when the district was heavily subsidized by large donors such as Aubrey. I suspect being without such donations as a backstop was completely unexpected at the time.

It wasn't Aubrey, it was Chesapeake.

That's a key distinction because after he was forced out of CHK in early 2013 -- 3 years before he passed away -- their funding was cut in half.

I understand that Chesapeake was actually paying the employees of the boathouse foundation (and there are a lot), doing all the landscaping with their company crew, etc. Yes, Aubrey was behind that, but it wasn't his money -- it was that of a public company and this sort of thing is why he was shown the door.

All this begs the question: what do we do long-term with this facility and the boathouse foundation as a whole? They are losing millions a year and we keep bailing them out.

What does the boathouse foundation actually do?

What does the boathouse foundation actually do?

They manage all the city-owned facilities, like the whitewater rapids, zip lines, etc.

They also do all the programming; hire instructors and employees, arrange events.

It's really one and the same with Riversport:

https://www.riversportokc.org/

It wasn't Aubrey, it was Chesapeake.

That's a key distinction because after he was forced out of CHK in early 2013 -- 3 years before he passed away -- their funding was cut in half.

I understand that Chesapeake was actually paying the employees of the boathouse foundation (and there are a lot), doing all the landscaping with their company crew, etc. Yes, Aubrey was behind that, but it wasn't his money -- it was that of a public company and this sort of thing is why he was shown the door.

All this begs the question: what do we do long-term with this facility and the boathouse foundation as a whole? They are losing millions a year and we keep bailing them out.

Thank you Pete for pointing out a common misperception in and around OKC.

As a side note, CHK is currently trading at $1.38 a share.

BTW, in 2012 -- the last year that the boathouse foundation got the benefit of all the Chesapeake money -- their salaries and benefits were almost $2.5M.

I believe Chesapeake was paying for all or most of that, plus tons of other things.

The revenue for the foundation dropped from $9.2M in 2012 (the last year Aubrey was at CHK) to $4.4M in 2013. I believe that huge drop was due to Aubrey no longer being able to spend CHK money on the foundation.


Obviously, that money is not coming back. They have been working hard to raise more contributions and add revenue-generating programs but they needed this $1.5M because they are projecting a $3M shortfall this year. $3 million.

They claim once they spend the extra $8M they were gifted through the MAPS overage that they will be able to generate more revenue.

But at every turn their projections have fallen short. I have scores of presentations they have made that claim *now* they will be self-sustaining.

And if you are keeping score you will know they city gave them $2M in June 2018, almost $8M additional MAPS funds last fall and now another $1.5M. That's $11.5M in just over a year.

From personal experience, I suspect part of the reason this is failing is due to terrible management.

Anecdotally, I signed up for the WhiteWater Kayaking Lesson package. Approximately $400 for the lessons plus the season pass. The goal was to become "certified" through the facility so I could begin to use their whitewater to kayak as a way to stay in shape. I live and work near downtown. Seemed like a great idea.

After signing up, the coordinator went radio silent on me. It took several calls and many e-mails just to set up my first lesson. After completing the lesson, I once again received no responses from the group as to how to proceed. The young man in charge is completely disorganized and awful at communicating. I had spent so much energy and time just setting the up the first lesson that I decided I'd wait to hear from them regarding future availability for the second lesson. Crickets.

I won't be going back. I am eating the $400 as a lesson to myself. I shouldn't have jumped in after learning how disorganized the whitewater facility is. I suspect I'm not the only one who has tried to become an active part of the kayaking community only to be left with no assistance or direction.

They need an endowment, plain and simple. It’s worth keeping but the model wasn’t setup correctly and the city or maps 4 or something is going to have to shell out 30M to keep it on a more secure path.

From personal experience, I suspect part of the reason this is failing is due to terrible management.

That entire story is very upsetting.

Remember, these facilities are owned by the city and we all paid for them through MAPS and other means.


With both the $2M last June and now this $1.5M, the city has mandated changes to the organization, such as hiring a controller, reshuffling their board, etc. This tells you that the whole thing has been mismanaged and that is just on the financial side.

I've been researching this for quite some time. Attempting to get my hands on more information to better understand what is going on. Keep in mind that like the fairgrounds, the boathouse foundation is operated as a non-profit separate from the city, which means they are not subject to open meetings and records laws.

I've downloaded all their tax returns and combed through them but there is still a lot of this operation that is hidden from view, and that's particularly troubling when we are shoveling millions more into their coffers.

That entire story is very upsetting.

Remember, these facilities are owned by the city and we all paid for them through MAPS and other means.


With both the $2M last June and now this $1.5M, the city has mandated changes to the organization, such as hiring a controller, reshuffling their board, etc. This tells you that the whole thing has been mismanaged and that is just on the financial side.

I've been researching this for quite some time. Attempting to get my hands on more information to better understand what is going on. Keep in mind that like the fairgrounds, the boathouse foundation is operated as a non-profit separate from the city, which means they are not subject to open meetings and records laws.

I've downloaded all their tax returns and combed through them but there is still a lot of this operation that is hidden from view, and that's particularly troubling when we are shoveling millions more into their coffers.

makes me think the white water facility specificily (and maybe all of it) should be run by a city trust like the zoo and airport instead of this way

It would be nice if more people actually used it instead of just talking about how great it is to have such a thing. I never see that many people using the rapids or the zip line etc. we want nice toys here but only as show pieces.

The problem is, once you zip lined across the massive drainage ditch and simulated a fishing bobber in the river, what's the draw to EVER do it again?

We had season passes for two years. First year we went a few times. The second year only once. Didn't even bother to buy a pass since.

I assumed they were in trouble when the "BOGO" on passes was not just a Back Friday thing but a promotion they did for a few months.

Give me something else to do besides bake in the sun while I'm down there and maybe I'd go back. We can't even get out of town guests to want to go.

Sounds like the whole management structure needs to be thrown out by what adark said regarding his experience. They can't deliver on the product their selling which is suppose to be their "bread and butter".

It would be nice if more people actually used it instead of just talking about how great it is to have such a thing. I never see that many people using the rapids or the zip line etc. we want nice toys here but only as show pieces.

Its a tourist attraction mostly, but its kind of hidden/detached and management does a poor job at promoting it. They could also promote it as a place to learn white water rafting at a "world class facility" from the "best in the business", but from the sound of things they take your money and never talk to you again.

Its a tourist attraction mostly, but its kind of hidden/detached and management does a poor job at promoting it.

Speaking of this. The boathouse/whitewater signage on southbound I-235 says to take 10th st exit and then another sign @ the intersection saying to turn left toward Lincoln, is there even a sign @ Lincoln to say to turn right?

I feel like the signs should be moved and updated to say take the OKC Blvd and then a sign at the Oklahoma Ave useless intersection indicating to make a U-turn and it will dump you right into the district. This way you can make both Northbound and Southbound I-235 using the OKC Boulevard for entry into the Boathouse District. The Lincoln signage is a mess.

Today, the MAPS3 board is considering a proposal from the Boathouse Foundation to use part of the $7.9M in excess MAPS funds they were awarded last fall towards a $1.1M double-occupancy surf machine.

I believe it will be similar to the one shown in the image below.

You may recall that years ago they revealed a conceptual presentation that showed the same sort of plan for a pavilion next to the zip line structure. Funds were to be raised through private means: https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=3591

This time around it would be integrated into the whitewater facility in some way.

Also, when they pitched the MAPS Board to get this $7.9M in additional funding, this project was not listed.

Seems like a great idea but you have to wonder if they can be trusted to operate something like this after the whitewater facility failed to meet their projections, has been losing money and part of the additional MAPS money was to make changes to the engines that drive the rapids after the huge expense of operations was part of them bleeding cash.

It seems they have consistently missed on their expense and revenue pro formas, which is why they keep asking the city to bail them out. I know they want to keep adding things to make the facility more appealing but everything they add seems to lose money.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/surf092619a.jpg

I guess I will be the one to defend Riversports Rapids.

I've had a Rafting season pass for 3 years now, and go 1-2 a week whenever they are open. So I've maybe rafted 100 times or so. The Rafting experience is usually good to great (if it isn't good is usually the result of the other passengers and not the guides). I've fallen in about 7-8 times, 2 of which were actually scary. It's a solid workout, about 500 calories just to go along 3 times, sometimes we go around 4. Tubing is decent, although can get a bit old, I still go whenever I'm in the late evening. Their management of the experience has improved dramatically in the past 3 years. In 2016, many of the guides didn't have experience. First time I went was a bad experience. I gave it a second shot, second time much better, and then bought season pass in 2017 and have continued since. Now the guides have a better handle on how to handle the rafting trip.

A season pass is a great deal for those who just want to raft. I can't speak of the Whitewater Kayaking or negative experiences with that, and I'm sorry to anyone who got screwed out of it. That's not good, and they should do something to fix that. But to impugn the Rapids overall would be a mistake.

The zip line isn't anything special, but it's an afterthought if you have a season pass. The zip line desperately needs the brakes that other zip lines have in the States, the worst thing about the zip line is the hard break that you feel in your teeth. Other zip lines have gradual breaks to slow you down before you hit the final break so you don't fling sideways. If they pulled the opposite tower back (if they can) to make it a longer zip line by about 100 feet and installed gradual breaks, that would be nice. Maybe put some decorations or something under that 100 feet that's now over land instead of water.

The Rapids area mainy suffers from location. It's not visually connected to Bricktown because you have Lincoln arching over the "new" I-40, blocking it from sight. If you're a visitor in Bricktown, you simply don't see it, which means you're not likely to think of it. I-40 needed to be buried all the way, so that city streets like Lincoln aren't overpasses. Even if you could see the Whitewater facility from Bricktown, it'll still be about a 3/4s to a mile walk meandering around the trails and across parking lots to get there from the heart of the canal. I don't mind walking, but others might, and it's not really something you go do without a bag or two for water sport clothes.

There needs to be some sort of shuttles from Bricktown, ideally streetcar access but that will be a bear to do. It would be great for there to be mixed use in the area, but it will be hard for semis and Uhaul trucks to reach. The street grid, if you can call it that, would need to be reworked for large vehicles to construct buildings and to allow for retail deliveries or 1,000+ to move into whatever apartments/condos are built. It needs to happen, but it won't be easy.

A lazy river where you can buy a beer and float around would be nice.

But the Rapids are essentially one of two things OKC has that is distinct and different from most other metros--that and the Murrah Memorial. When the AICCM gets finished, that might be three. We have a great zoo, but every metro has a zoo (and, again, it's not accessibly unless by car). Our canal isn't in the ballpark of San Antonio's when it comes to quality, even if Lower Bricktown wasn't parking lot hell.

The Myriad gardens is nice, but every metro has gardens, parks, "urban neighborhoods" (if you can call any of ours urban), pubs, steakhouses, outdoor booze venues...the Rapids is one of the few things the city has, and OKC-itians should take advantage of them. Usually half the people I end up on a raft with are out of town. Why so few people in the metro attending?

It's about 85 dollars for a season pass when half off, 120 dollars for an epic pass. If 16,000 more people in the metro bought a half off 85 dollar pass on Black Friday, that 1.5 million dollar deficit goes away. Just go 4 times in the summer, and you're spending ~21 dollars per trip. Each additional trip and that price goes down.

i agree with every thing you said ... and i think it is clearly poorly run from a financial management perspective

Can they turn down the rapids and do lazy river events with alcohol? Seems like that could generate revenue.

I thought that they had done things like this with floating movie nights but maybe I'm misrecollecting.

So last summer I did the rapids with four of us total for my birthday. Our raft flipped at the end of the rapids and our wives called it a day right there. My friend and I decided to give it another go (just three of us on the raft), but this time we flipped on the very first rapid. It was honestly fairly terrifying. I slammed into the blue blocks and got sucked under the water for extended time and dragged along the pavement ripping all the skin off my knee. One guy threw me a rope, but the rapids were too strong. Eventually, I was able to climb out on a set of the blue blocks. I walked out of the water and across the facility with blood dripping spilling everywhere yet not one employee asked if I needed help. The person who had thrown me the rope didn't walk down fifty feet to see if I was alright. I eventually had to go in the building, cut to the front of the line while blood dripped on the ground, and ask if they had any medical supplies. The workers looked at me like I was asking a strange question but eventually someone gave me some gauze, but not any tape or anything else to hold it on. I also ended up losing hearing in an ear for a month due to the impact.

In short, the staff were stunningly negligent with no one around to even check on you. I understand these are the risks of whitewater rafting and accept those risks, but the lack of support was absurd. I am the type of person who is just going to figure it out, but there should be people to support customers who go into the rapids and ask them questions about their injuries, the amount of water they took in, etc. Some people would have been utterly traumatized by the experience. I suspect I could have lied on the side of the rapids for a long time bleeding without anyone saying a thing. Anyway, I don't know why I haven't shared the story until now, but it really is unacceptable management that hopefully has been improved since.

This is mind boggling, OKC does need to add more amenities to make the Whitewater facilities more appealing; first needs to stop the bleeding, find cost cutting measures to make this facility as close to break even as possible.

Pete mentioned the salary for Director Mike Knopps:


In the 2016 return (waiting on 2017 numbers) his salary was $221,923.

Plus benefits.

For perspective, City Manager Jim Couch -- who has been on the job 18 years and manages almost 5,000 employees -- just got a raise to $251K.

is that salary comparable to a similar facility like Charlotte, NC's director. Something needs to be done ASAP, like an immediate 'audit or study' with recommendations before this facility which is hemorrhaging at an accelerated pace--valuable funds that may lead to an eventual SHUTDOWN.

Sounds like the soccer stadium needs to be in the boathouse district, or just across the river with a nice wide pedestrian bridge over the river...

Sounds like the soccer stadium needs to be in the boathouse district, or just across the river with a nice wide pedestrian bridge over the river...

Great idea that many of us haven't considered, Shawnw. Especially if it's placed south on the riverfront with as you mentioned a wide pedestrian (mini-Skydance LED lighted) bridge to complement the stadium over the river leading to access with the Whitewater Facility, via the streetcar route to the Bricktown Entertainment.

The Chickasaw Tribe will have 100 acres (2 2/3) more acreage than the Producers COOP mill site) given them by the city near the AICCM to develop as part of the agreement to finish the cultural center museum. They may want to build around the multipurpose stadium development with hotels, garage parking, recreational & entertainment venues.

So I'm not active enough in the whole whitewater/kayaking/rafting scene to make informed guesses at the implications to OKC of this - https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/construction-to-begin-on-national-caliber-whitewater-park-made-possible-by-oklahoma-arkansas-partnerships-officials/article_9b272fa8-1883-11eb-97e8-5397ef87fd82.html

It might be far enough away to have zero impact on OKCs whitewater facility, or they may be very different animals. On the other hand, I could see this new park could add to Oklahoma's attraction for folks looking for this kind of stuff (they might hit both) or at the minimum it could increase participation in kayaking and rafting in the state in general, which could certainly help OKCs facility?

It could also make a fun multi day trip of kayaking, with a different course each day.

So I'm not active enough in the whole whitewater/kayaking/rafting scene to make informed guesses at the implications to OKC of this - https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/construction-to-begin-on-national-caliber-whitewater-park-made-possible-by-oklahoma-arkansas-partnerships-officials/article_9b272fa8-1883-11eb-97e8-5397ef87fd82.html

It might be far enough away to have zero impact on OKCs whitewater facility, or they may be very different animals. On the other hand, I could see this new park could add to Oklahoma's attraction for folks looking for this kind of stuff (they might hit both) or at the minimum it could increase participation in kayaking and rafting in the state in general, which could certainly help OKCs facility?

It looks kind of similar (though maybe longer) with what Tulsa is putting in one of the renovations of a dam a couple miles south of their downtown. Either way I could see Tulsa's having the larger impact. Granted I have no idea if that might lead to more people willing to make a trip to OKC or decide do not need to travel for it.

It looks kind of similar (though maybe longer) with what Tulsa is putting in one of the renovations of a dam a couple miles south of their downtown. Either way I could see Tulsa's having the larger impact. Granted I have no idea if that might lead to more people willing to make a trip to OKC or decide do not need to travel for it.

The one on the Upper Illinois will be a lot larger and longer than what is planned in Tulsa. The one in Tulsa will have an 80 ft long flume and 100 ft standing wave on the Arkansas.

https://www.cityoftulsa.org/media/3977/pedestrianbridge2-sm.jpg

The one on the Upper Illinois will be a lot larger and longer than what is planned in Tulsa. The one in Tulsa will have an 80 ft long flume and 100 ft standing wave on the Arkansas.

The Upper Illinois park will probably keep kayakers from traveling to OKC as it is much closer to a higher quantity of whitewater paddlers in Ark who sometime make the drive to OKC in the summer when the rain dependent creeks are not running. I would imagine for rafters the location of the Illinois course with not much else to do may be a hindrance.

the nicest thing I see immediately from that rendering that OKC doesn't have nor planned to have - the pedestrian overlook.

Why ??? does OKC not have this?

the nicest thing I see immediately from that rendering that OKC doesn't have nor planned to have - the pedestrian overlook.

Why ??? does OKC not have this?

The flume in Tulsa is on the Arkansas River where Zink Dam drops the pool elevation by 10 ft. The pedestrian bridge crosses the river just to the north of it. Very different than in OKC where the whitewater course is not actually part of the river.

So is flume here the same type of flume I'm picturing (like, I've seen them in Hawaii but they were elevated - basically like a log flume) or is it something different here?

So is flume here the same type of flume I'm picturing (like, I've seen them in Hawaii but they were elevated - basically like a log flume) or is it something different here?

I think it is the water channel that you float through.

the nicest thing I see immediately from that rendering that OKC doesn't have nor planned to have - the pedestrian overlook.

Why ??? does OKC not have this?

As other have said, it's not over the actual river but they did build 3? 4? bridges over the channel that you can view from.

the nicest thing I see immediately from that rendering that OKC doesn't have nor planned to have - the pedestrian overlook.

Why ??? does OKC not have this?

I believe that’s the new pedestrian bridge over the Arkansas River it’s not directly related to the whitewater channel

The Tulsa World Article that started this thread bump says the new Whitewater project is on the Arkansas state line, will cost $33 million, draw 85,000 people a year and have an economic impact of $900,000 per year. Primarily funded by Walton money.

Help me understand why OKC should try to do something like this?

Help me understand where anyone here said OKC should try and do this?

Help me understand where anyone here said OKC should try and do this?
Post #887 from Hot Rod

i said the pedestrian overlook. ..

no offense but "reading is fundamental"


the nicest thing I see immediately from that rendering that OKC doesn't have nor planned to have - the pedestrian overlook.

Why ??? does OKC not have this?

Post #887 from Hot Rod
I was going to say the same thing Hot Rod said just got distracted. He only suggest an improvement not what you said.