Plan B doesn't have people driving 150mph down EK Gaylord Blvd. It won't have 80,000-100,000 people filling up standing-room-only spots on the roofs of every parking garage...It won't bring $30m-$40m into our economy in one weekend...Is plan B cool? Yes. Is it all that Plan A was? Not even close.

I have not seen any details on Plan B. For all I know Plan B is the Shriners with their go-carts.

http://maser-media.org/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shriners-cars.jpg

http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/19/5e/2f0bfbf94798affa7d92287cec5f.jpeg

If it only draws 60,000 people and doesn't cost the city $6.9 million, I could live with that.

Has anyone supplied a credible economic impact study on either plan a or b? With the annual guarantee provided by the sponsor, along with the taxes generated by out of town visitors and all extraordinary spending accompanying the event, what was the net effect year one? Other than political posturing and sound bites, does anyone have a copy of the full economic impact study upon which the proposal was voted up or down.

Heaven help us if we take skin deep, I'll cover my ass approach to the issues facing our city. We will soon fade into the same mediocraty we were just starting to emerge from.

Historically, according to the city manager's report, the net effect is they lose money in year one, lose money in year two, and don't come back for year three. That's the reality, not the sales pitch.

I'm going from Steve's earlier story, but the full report is probably on the city web site somewhere. Maybe attached to this week's council agenda.

I think a lack of those type documents is one of the things that caused it to be voted down. None were mentioned in the council meeting that I can recall. What was mentioned, was that the councilmembers didn't recieve the packets to be voted on until the Friday before the meeting.

I think that's the normal procedure.

Probably so, but you'd think with something of this importance they would have started a little earlier. If for nothing else to provide some time for the skeptical council members to ask some questions of the CM or mayor. It was obvious that it bothered the council that they had no idea where the $7M was going to come from.

I think we need to see plan B before we make any judgments. If in fact it does involve the IRL you are right, they won't be racing at 150 mph down EK Gaylord, they will be racing 200mph down Lincoln. The IRL with much more exposure and drivers that people have actually heard of will draw big crowds here. If it's not the IRL and something else then you may be right. The IRL was actively seeking new road courses to pacify the CART teams that came over and just added a road race through the city streets of Baltimore but supposedly they want to add two more new road courses to the schedule in addition to that one. We'll see eventually.
Plan B doesn't have people driving 150mph down EK Gaylord Blvd. It won't have 80,000-100,000 people filling up standing-room-only spots on the roofs of every parking garage...It won't bring $30m-$40m into our economy in one weekend...Is plan B cool? Yes. Is it all that Plan A was? Not even close.

Again, the $6.9m from Plan A was for tangible items that could even be resold if needed. I am excited for all sports-related items that bring excitement to our city and at the same time give our city an economic injection to every hotel and restaurant citywide. Will Plan B do that...maybe, but at a fraction of what Plan A could have done. Will I attend Plan B? Yes. Would I have attended Plan A? I would have been there hours beforehand and stayed hours after too.

I am, however, very excited that another option is available but I hope that Ward and Lund (etc) don't give up.

If it only draws 60,000 people and doesn't cost the city $6.9 million, I could live with that.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind seeing the Shriners race those things either. Just look at the guys in the pictures, you know they are dying to open them up to see what they'll do.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/realdupont/library/470shriner1.jpg

Was in LA today. Baltimore got good press on landing race. OKC was noted for rejecting it. The slant on the races souned different there.

BTW.... It's 90210 day in LA.... 9/02/10

Plan B doesn't have people driving 150mph down EK Gaylord Blvd. It won't have 80,000-100,000 people filling up standing-room-only spots on the roofs of every parking garage...It won't bring $30m-$40m into our economy in one weekend...Is plan B cool? Yes. Is it all that Plan A was? Not even close.

Again, the $6.9m from Plan A was for tangible items that could even be resold if needed. I am excited for all sports-related items that bring excitement to our city and at the same time give our city an economic injection to every hotel and restaurant citywide. Will Plan B do that...maybe, but at a fraction of what Plan A could have done. Will I attend Plan B? Yes. Would I have attended Plan A? I would have been there hours beforehand and stayed hours after too.

I am, however, very excited that another option is available but I hope that Ward and Lund (etc) don't give up.

Casey:

Curious but do you have the details of both plans? We know very little about either plan (other than what the promoters are saying). How solid are the numbers they presented? Are they best case, average or what? Are they recent (what those types of races are bringing in with the economy the way it is)?

The "tangible" items that could be resold, the promoters claimed it would hold 80% of its value, for USED equipment? That seems high doesn't it? And again, if there really isn't much risk as the promoters claim, why haven't they gone to a bank and gotten a loan? If the City is going to play banker, the same criteria needs to be used (as mentioned by one of the Council). A contract that says you WILL pay back the money borrowed (they wouldn't to do that). And put up collateral just in case the business folds.

I don't don't the sincerity of the promoters and their willingness to pay back, just their ability to do so.

There are just too many unanswered questions at this point. But I definitely lean towards a plan that requires little/none public money (especially when we don't have the money). Which is what the Mayor said the City's goal in any negotiation to be.

Larry - just to set the record straight, the $7 million dollars wasn't going to ALMS or Grand Prix Oklahoma Inc. That was the amount of money it cost to build the temporary road course, a course that would be owned by the City. You seem to be under the impression that the City would pay for the course material, give it to GPO, who in turn would make payments on it. I don't think that was the plan. The course material would be owned by the City forever to use for anything and everything the City saw fit to use it for.

This was not different than the City spending nearly $5 million for Outlet Mall improvements at I-40 and Council Road ($1 million of which is to build a private road).

The city makes capital investments all the time for private businesses. They and the state have among other responsibilities, the task of enabling private businesses the opportunity to help generate gdp for the area. The issue is the amount of risk involved. Streets and infrastructure is built for private businesses all the time. There are streets all over this city that exist strictly to serve businesses. Why this investment is singled out is because of perceived risk....mostly to the politicians who are now afraid to make decisions lest they are subject to second guessing and ridicule by vocal fringe elements and opposing politicians.

They also have a responsibility not to throw tax money at every ill-conceived notion that gets carried into city hall.

Incidentally, I don't know if the city is still subsidizing advertising for the outlet mall, but that was equally inappropriate, if not moreso.

Rover, the council member's perception of risk with this deal, and why it was singled out, is two-fold from what I've heard. First, the street-based Grand Prix races have a very poor track record of shutting down after a year or two according to a city staff analysis. Secondly, this is a year when city employees lost jobs, police and firefighters are doing more work with less manpower, and basic services to residents are being cut back. There was never any clear direction given by the mayor or city manager as to where the $7 million would come from. To quote Councilman Pat Ryan, "if we have the $7 million, let's spend it." Interestingly enough, the council seemed to indicate they might have been willing to reconsider this deal in a year or so if the economy improves, but that offer was rejected by OKC Grand Prix LLC.

I think the third fold might be that council members would rather be crossways with Brad Lund than crossways with Ron Norick.

Would they rather be crossways with Mayor Cornett or past Mayor Ron Norick? Bornhere, I'd need to see and hear more to understand why you say this, but I've seen nothing to indicate that the council doesn't have the same respect for Cornett that they do for Norick.

I don't give a damn who brings it here, I want to see motorsports have a presence here.

^^^ I agree 100%! Let's get some sort of racing in OKC that doesn't have to do with the river!

This was not different than the City spending nearly $5 million for Outlet Mall improvements at I-40 and Council Road ($1 million of which is to build a private road).

Actually, it is different. In the case of the outlet mall, the city has spent millions of dollars to help outside corporate businesses compete with local businesses. If the race was successful, it would have actually helped support local business instead of compete directly with it like the outlet mall will.

totally different race format, and largely a different crowd, but when you demo a long enjoyed race grandstand and lay off not insignificant numbers of public safety groups, stepping up to lay out several million, without an assured payback, for racing, might have seemed to be just a little too much big hat, no cattle syndrome.

The outlet mall agreement was struck in 2008 - before the city went into a recession. In 2008 sales taxes were up, employment was steady, and OKC was not feeling the national downturn.

Face it, this smacks of politics, not of solid business reasoning. This was a small investment for the potential impact.

So would you invest $6.9 million in street-based Grand Prix racing without any promise of recouping your money if the race fails? If so, why?

Because it's just the little people's money, and it grows on trees.

^^^ I agree 100%! Let's get some sort of racing in OKC that doesn't have to do with the river!

Watson, something I actually started thinking about when this was first being talked about was a course incorporating the river. It could travel a circuitous route around both sides of the river. It may not be feasible at all but sounded appealing to me.

Face it, this smacks of politics, not of solid business reasoning. This was a small investment for the potential impact.

Am sure the promoters will be happy to take your $6.9M check. But you don't have the money? Guess what, neither does OKC!

Watson, something I actually started thinking about when this was first being talked about was a course incorporating the river. It could travel a circuitous route around both sides of the river. It may not be feasible at all but sounded appealing to me.

Yeah, that would be interesting!! But I think the track layout would be pretty lame. It would definitely be cool to see a picture of Lambo's and Ferrari's going over the river with the skyline in the background...

Yeah, that would be interesting!! But I think the track layout would be pretty lame. It would definitely be cool to see a picture of Lambo's and Ferrari's going over the river with the skyline in the background...

I hadn't thought about any particular layout but I'm not sure why it would be any worse than around the zoo and Remington Park area. Maybe something incorporating Stockyards City would be interesting.

Am sure the promoters will be happy to take your $6.9M check. But you don't have the money? Guess what, neither does OKC!

Totally silly apples and oranges. If I put up the money I don't stand to benefit from the great national exposure that benefits the city and all its citizens and other businesses who stand to profit by it. Not only would the city get hard assets with residual value which could be used at alternative venues (which I would not), but they get resultant revenue from increased taxes on hotels, car rentals, restaurants, and all merchandise sold leading up to and during the event. I would get none of that so my investment would reap far less than the city's. OKC would get hard assets and millions of dollars of exposure and built in economics for itself and for many, many businesses.

If you want to make comparisons, try to make them reasonable comparisons. The city's considerations are entirely different than mine would be.

And you missed the point...neither of you have the money.

How about answering Steve's question?

You have no clue whether I have the money or not. Assuming is a dangerous thing for people without personal knowledge to do. And you avoid the real issue...for the city it is an investment with many ways of being paid off in real terms and in terms of benefiting other businesses and citizens of OKC. For me as a private investor, not so much. Total apples and oranges.

And you missed the point...neither of you have the money.

How about answering Steve's question?

What is the question?

To those who think the city should have approved the $6.9 million, would you have personally invested that money after seeing the city staff analysis?

Steve, the considerations for economic development and a private investment are totally different. So the question doesn't prove anything. The city benefits (potentially) in multiple ways, including increased taxes resulting from the event itself and all spending relating to it, including hotel and rental car taxes, and from national advertising/good will as a result. I am not saying the city is wrong for not approving, just saying there is a huge difference in the pay-back for the investment for the city vs. private investment. You have to know that just seeing that OKC gets great exposure nationally every time the Thunder is mentioned on every sportscast, in every newspaper in the country, in all press releases by the team, etc., etc., etc.. You can't afford to buy all the publicity that some of these events produce.

Alright, moving on --- any chance Rover you have $6.9 million to lend me? I'll pay you back ...
;)

(potentially)

Outlet Shoppes is investing what $50 million and the city is spending $5 million on roads to handle traffic? Not much of a comparison.

Steve....To answer your question, NO!

I would not invest in this proposal.

Steve, please send me your proposal. :)

You have no clue whether I have the money or not. Assuming is a dangerous thing for people without personal knowledge to do. And you avoid the real issue...for the city it is an investment with many ways of being paid off in real terms and in terms of benefiting other businesses and citizens of OKC. For me as a private investor, not so much. Total apples and oranges.

So then, the promoters can be expecting your check then...

You are the one avoiding the real issue. The CITY doesn't have the money. It may be a great opportunity but if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. Plain & simple.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges...what type of exposure would OKC really get for this once a year event? Are you really suggesting it to be on the level of the Thunder? Other have talked about watching the races on some (apparently obscure cable channel). Sounds like the national exposure would be minimal at best and only to a select niche demographic.

As far as what the City could expect in return. The City Manager mentioned during the Council meeting that the City would be expecting $213K directly from the event from sales tax revenue (unclear if that included sales tax from hotels, restaurants etc).

Talk about comparing apples and oranges...what type of exposure would OKC really get for this once a year event? Are you really suggesting it to be on the level of the Thunder? Other have talked about watching the races on some (apparently obscure cable channel). Sounds like the national exposure would be minimal at best and only to a select niche demographic.
It would have much larger reach than the Thunder, Speed is a Fox Sports channel but unlike its sister channel Fox Sports Oklahoma which is just broadcast in the Fox Sports Southwest area which is blacked out during Thunder games outside of Oklahoma, Speed has more television sets since they are nationwide and not subject to blackout restrictions imposed on the broadcasts like the NBA, MLB, NHL all enforce on regional sports networks. Here in Austin I only get the Spurs games, the Mavericks, Rockets and Thunder are all blacked out even though they are all broadcast on the Fox Sports Southwest regional sports network. Speed is also carried on some cable outlets and satellite systems in Canada and Latin/South America. The ALMS races are also broadcast on other networks in Canada, Central/South America, Southeast Asia and Europe. The only time a Thunder game has that kind of reach is when they have a nationally televised game since the NBA enforces territorial restrictions on their regional sports network broadcasts. Motorsports is typically a much bigger draw than the NBA in Central/South America, Europe and Asia, typically only behind soccer. Formula 1 is the most watched worldwide television broadcast on a yearly basis and is only exceeded by the World Cup every four years, LeMans Endurance Series/ALMS is behind only Formula 1 and MotoGP in viewership worldwide.

So then, the promoters can be expecting your check then...

You are the one avoiding the real issue. The CITY doesn't have the money. It may be a great opportunity but if you don't have the money, you don't have the money. Plain & simple.

Talk about comparing apples and oranges...what type of exposure would OKC really get for this once a year event? Are you really suggesting it to be on the level of the Thunder? Other have talked about watching the races on some (apparently obscure cable channel). Sounds like the national exposure would be minimal at best and only to a select niche demographic.

As far as what the City could expect in return. The City Manager mentioned during the Council meeting that the City would be expecting $213K directly from the event from sales tax revenue (unclear if that included sales tax from hotels, restaurants etc).

^^That 213k in Tax revenue you speak of doesnt include hotels,clubs,resturants,gift shops,retail!You wanna know how I know this?100k people in hotels(From Merdian to NW expwy back to Bricktown/DT),All bricktown resturant's Packed,Clubs packed,Parking lot's Full,Harkins and Bass Pro Full,Rental Car's places Packed,Bricktown canal rides and Devon Ok river boat cruises Packed etc.... and so on and so on!The Hotel tax alone would be MASSIVE,just think about it for a second!and OKC would get some great PR and it's Image boosted as well!

I'm a fan of the racing and would like to see it there but I don't think it would attract 100,000 there for the event, I think more like 80,000 is a realistic number but I do think most attending would be coming in from out of town. The 12 Hours of Sebring is the premier race for this class and it attracts 160,000, Petit LeMans is around 115,000 and Long Beach is around 105,000, the regular sprint events (which a race in OKC would more than likely be) averages around 83,000. At that number it would still make a big impact on the city tax revenue.

I have been in both Monte Carlo and LeMans around their races. The level of excitement and preparation is similar to a bowl game or Super Bowl. There is much investment leading up to the race and massive crowds show up.

This certainly is not to suggest that OKC's would get there any time soon. However, people who dismiss LeMans style racing probably haven't had any exposure to it. It is anticipated and exciting...and I am not even a racing fan.

I don't think most local media or influence peddlers here have an experience or history with this form of sports and haven't a clue as to what it can be.

That said, I have never claimed the city should or shouldn't invest in this. But I guarantee the city and state makes far worse investments to benefit private endeavors all the time. Giving up revenue by waiving taxes is the same as giving money but sneakier.

Rover, I don't think anyone on the council was questioning the draw of LeMans racing. The question was the success record of street-courses.

Monaco and LeMans are street courses. That is part of the draw. But your point is well taken.

Steve, just curious... Baltimore is estimating a financial impact in the city of $70Million. What was the OKC estimate?

It was in my story - I can't recall it right now. I'm also not familiar with the terms of the deal in Baltimore.

[QUOTE=Rover;358892]Steve, just curious... Baltimore is estimating a financial impact in the city of $70Million. What was the OKC estimate?[/QUOTE

Just rewatched the Council meeting...

Ward said it would be a $30 to $40M economic impact.

Lund said (after saying he doesn't look at economic impacts because he doesn't understand them, esp indirect impact) put it at $25 to $40M. Said that other markets they looked at, it was a minimum of $20M.

Didn't hear it mentioned what the City's estimate was...

GRAND PRIX MARKETS – DISCONTINUED TEMPORARY CIRCUITS

Markets moved from street courses to permanent speedways (# of years as street course listed):

Dallas (7 years) – moved to Texas Motor Speedway…active market
Miami (13 years) – moved to Miami-Homestead Speedway…active market vacated due to Champ Car/IndyCar merger
Houston (6 years) – due to merger
Cleveland (26 years) – due to merger
Las Vegas (1 year) – due to merger; currently evaluating return to area
San Jose (3 years) – due to merger Markets vacated due to other reasons
Detroit (14 years) – suspended due to economic crisis in automobile industry
Denver (4 years) – due to preparation for Democratic National Convention
Washington D.C. (1 year) – due to poor location; moved to Baltimore in 2011
Vancouver (15 years) – track circuit developed into condominiums


AVERAGE LONGEVITY OF DISCONTINUED GRAND PRIX MARKETS: 9 Years





GRAND PRIX MARKETS – ACTIVE TEMPORARY CIRCUITS

Long Beach (36 years)
Toronto (23 years)
St. Pete (7 years)
Edmonton (6 years)


AVERAGE LONGEVITY OF ACTIVE GRAND PRIX MARKETS: 18 Years



Sourcing??

GRAND PRIX MARKETS – DISCONTINUED TEMPORARY CIRCUITS

Markets moved from street courses to permanent speedways (# of years as street course listed):

Dallas (7 years) – moved to Texas Motor Speedway…active market
Miami (13 years) – moved to Miami-Homestead Speedway…active market vacated due to Champ Car/IndyCar merger
Houston (6 years) – due to merger
Cleveland (26 years) – due to merger
Las Vegas (1 year) – due to merger; currently evaluating return to area
San Jose (3 years) – due to merger Markets vacated due to other reasons
Detroit (14 years) – suspended due to economic crisis in automobile industry
Denver (4 years) – due to preparation for Democratic National Convention
Washington D.C. (1 year) – due to poor location; moved to Baltimore in 2011
Vancouver (15 years) – track circuit developed into condominiums


AVERAGE LONGEVITY OF DISCONTINUED GRAND PRIX MARKETS: 9 Years





GRAND PRIX MARKETS – ACTIVE TEMPORARY CIRCUITS

Long Beach (36 years)
Toronto (23 years)
St. Pete (7 years)
Edmonton (6 years)


AVERAGE LONGEVITY OF ACTIVE GRAND PRIX MARKETS: 18 Years



Huge difference between IndyCar and American Le Mans. Who would people rather see? Danica Patrick or Jorg Bergmeister?

Yeah, I'm seeing what's going on here. RKJG, you're combining the RedHawks and Drillers with the NY Yankees and Boston Red Sox. The analysis done by city staff was for American LeMans racing on temporary street tracks - the same sort of event proposed for Oklahoma City. Your list is very, very different from that....

Huge difference between IndyCar and American Le Mans. Who would people rather see? Danica Patrick or Jorg Bergmeister?

Is IRL still Plan B? I am still holding out hope for the Shriners go-carts. My guess is it is still American LeMans with a change in venue. All the people involved were working together until recently and if this plan has been in the works for 4 or 6 years then I assume they were all working on the same thing.

Yeah, I'm seeing what's going on here. RKJG, you're combining the RedHawks and Drillers with the NY Yankees and Boston Red Sox. The analysis done by city staff was for American LeMans racing on temporary street tracks - the same sort of event proposed for Oklahoma City. Your list is very, very different from that....
Not really, most ALMS street races were a support race to an IRL or Champ Car race as the headliner, so when Champ Car and the IRL merged and the IRL dropped them the bulk of those races were shut down by the the organizing committees because of the IRL, not because of anything that ALMS did or did not bring to the race. I know Houston was supposed to be about two months after the merger happened and the organizing committee tried to get the ALMS to take on a headliner role but it just wasn't in their budget with that short of a time frame with a Saturday night television slot. The ALMS has traditionally run on road courses, they have not been a headliner on temporary street circuits but evidently that is changing since the Baltimore announcement and the OKC attempt. Most of the street races died when the primary sanctioning body (Champ Car) folded, to place the blame for those races folding on ALMS is just flat out wrong.

LordGerald - As far as I am concerned ALMS is miles ahead of the tired old formula that the IRL has become. I would much rather see ALMS any day of the week, I hardly ever watch the IRL anymore and I was a huge CART fan and followed Champ Car pretty closely. Danica Patrick brings nothing to the table for me, she has won one race and that was in Motegi the same weekend half the field was fulfilling the Champ Car Death March weekend at Long Beach.

It does seem that several of the races have evolved over time. And we started with the CBA, got several NCAA tournament games, took a chance on the New Orleans temporary relocation, and wound up with a major attraction in the Thunder...arriving at the highest level. Who's to say OKC can't evolve the racing. No one in their right minds was predicting long term success for NBA here a few years ago...now 4 years later it is consistently a tough ticket.

With October approaching, its hard to fathom that a haunted house promotion, started 26 years ago in a seedy written off warehouse district, could arguably provide the spark that has led to the revolutionary developments that we are discussing today. BTHW RIP. Maybe a statue will be built for you someday.