Mikemarsh51
06-19-2010, 11:09 AM
Third great math, notice how he glossed over that one!
View Full Version : 6 months later. Mikemarsh51 06-19-2010, 11:09 AM Third great math, notice how he glossed over that one! rcjunkie 06-19-2010, 12:21 PM Third great math, notice how he glossed over that one! No glossing, just assumed tht if you don't understand 3rd grade math, why bother trying to explain the intricate workings of a complicated budget system/process. dismayed 06-19-2010, 12:31 PM ...the new motto of okc services is "do more with less". Welcome to the workforce of the 21st Century. That is the motto of everyone, everywhere. I'm afraid I have no sympathy. I know this is hard for some folks in this state to hear, but when that becomes the situation and it is immovable, it is time to start thinking about changing the way things are done instead of doing the same things that have been done for the last 100 years. The fact is it is pretty clear to me you are not going to win this argument in this city. That being the case, shouting from the rooftops, or in this case an anonymous message board, isn't going to do the job. I think city public services need to step back and rethink a few things. Mikemarsh51 06-19-2010, 03:13 PM Dismayed, we are funded by the taxpayers, the more taxpayers the more funding. Simple as that. What is not simple is that a federal agency, the NFPA decides how much fire protection is needed. They also set standards on the amount of manpower needed in certain situations. We only live by what they decide. Our problem is our city leadership choosing to disregard those requirements. Junkie you mispelled another word in your reply. But, of course, since you were in management you did not. rcjunkie 06-19-2010, 04:00 PM Dismayed, we are funded by the taxpayers, the more taxpayers the more funding. Simple as that. What is not simple is that a federal agency, the NFPA decides how much fire protection is needed. They also set standards on the amount of manpower needed in certain situations. We only live by what they decide. Our problem is our city leadership choosing to disregard those requirements. Junkie you mispelled another word in your reply. But, of course, since you were in management you did not. Even though you stink in basic math, I'll give you an A plus in spelling. I would rather know the in's and outs of a complicated budget process then know how to spell it correctly, any day. Midtowner 06-19-2010, 04:20 PM I agree with Steve that the PS workers need a better mouthpiece. I would add that they need a better political strategy. Want cash? Want perks? Sidestep the city government and secure those benefits by lobbying the state legislature. The unions need to learn to work with Republicans--especially the public unions, because for the foreseeable future, that's who will have the majority in the legislature. As to convincing the electorate, you both need to hire a P.R. firm. Your union bosses do not strike a sympathetic image with the average anti-union Oklahoman, nor do your union bosses seem to have a clue what they are doing. Consider the recent goings-on with MAPS III. Despite polling which suggested that you had very little chance of an upset, your unions put all their cards on the table, effectively attempting to hold the city fathers' agenda hostage. They called your bluff and here you are. The next time your unions make demands, the city fathers will remember the last time you made threats and will recall just how idle your threats turned out to be. You spent what.. $100,000 on an anti-MAPS campaign? Had huge grass roots support and still lost by the same margin as the anti-MAPS I folks did before MAPS had any brand recognition? How obtuse and incompetent can you be? Your leadership has cost you a lot and will continue to do so. I'm not suggesting that you not be tough or not fight for what you think you need to continue to do the excellent jobs you do. What I'm suggesting is that you not go about it like a bull in a china closet. Hire some folks to help your leadership steer this ship because it's not going in a good direction at all right now. Larry OKC 06-19-2010, 05:55 PM Mid, I wouldn't say the anti-MAPS folks didn't have an impact. They almost pulled off the upset (passage dropped to the same "barely passing" as the original MAPS. But I agree if they had presented the message better it could have been defeated and we might have gotten a better (legal) ballot/ordinance as a result. How idle were the threats? They said unless if MAPS 3 directly included solving the staffing problems that PS has, they couldn't support it (as they had done with the 2 previous MAPS). No direct inclusion of MAPS 3 money (just the associated Use Tax and only for 2 years at that...even more temporary than the temporary tax) so they didn't support it and actively opposed it. If more of the PS lived in the OKC limits and had been able to vote, the results would have been even closer than what they were. I agree the tactic could come back to bite them on the butt during negotiations and to a certain extent it has, they are going to lose positions (completely ignoring the promises of the MAPS 3 campaign) unless if all 3 unions agree to pay for any "added" positions with pay cuts etc. The state level? Wasn't aware the state had much if any rule in the matter and I wouldn't be looking to the state for any additional funds any time soon given its budget situation. Larry OKC 06-19-2010, 06:05 PM They don't really want the truth, it doesn't fit their "conspiracy theory". What it really comes down to is basic, third great math, no matter where your dollars come from (general fund, special use tax, dedicated sales tax) if your revenue is less then your expenses, cuts must be made. No glossing, just assumed tht if you don't understand 3rd grade math, why bother trying to explain the intricate workings of a complicated budget system/process. So which is it? Simple and basic or intricate and complicated? I will give you the multitude of funds (30+) that the city has makes the shell game harder to follow. Most are supposed to be dedicated funds but as we have seen, the City can change their "intent" at will and "borrow" (think they call it an intrafund transfer or something like that) that may or may not eventually be paid back. rcjunkie 06-19-2010, 06:09 PM So which is it? Simple and basic or intricate and complicated? I will give you the multitude of funds (30+) that the city has makes the shell game harder to follow. Most are supposed to be dedicated funds but as we have seen, the City can change their "intent" at will and "borrow" (think they call it an intrafund transfer or something like that) that may or may not eventually be paid back. You too I see ! One last time--Budget process is intricate and complicated. When revenue is less then expenses--thats basic third grade math. I hope your spouse or better half takes care of your checkbook! Midtowner 06-19-2010, 06:19 PM Mid, I wouldn't say the anti-MAPS folks didn't have an impact. They almost pulled off the upset (passage dropped to the same "barely passing" as the original MAPS. But I agree if they had presented the message better it could have been defeated and we might have gotten a better (legal) ballot/ordinance as a result. 54% to 45% is a pretty big (9 point) spread. That's definitely not "barely passing." Elected officials refer to much less than that as a "mandate." How idle were the threats? They said unless if MAPS 3 directly included solving the staffing problems that PS has, they couldn't support it (as they had done with the 2 previous MAPS). No direct inclusion of MAPS 3 money (just the associated Use Tax and only for 2 years at that...even more temporary than the temporary tax) so they didn't support it and actively opposed it. If more of the PS lived in the OKC limits and had been able to vote, the results would have been even closer than what they were. ...and if all of those PS employees had families of 8 or more with children of voting age and if flood waters came in and kept NW OKC from voting and if... But they don't. So if the best you can do by withdrawing your support is letting your opponent win by a margin of 9%, then you should refocus your resources somewhere those resources can do some good. I agree the tactic could come back to bite them on the butt during negotiations and to a certain extent it has, they are going to lose positions (completely ignoring the promises of the MAPS 3 campaign) unless if all 3 unions agree to pay for any "added" positions with pay cuts etc. Well, the MAPS III campaign said that if MAPS passed there'd be more positions. That's still a reasonable statement and it's still probably true. With MAPS does PS have more money than they'd have without it? Undeniably. Does that translate into more positions? Who knows. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one ever promised that should MAPS pass, there'd be comparatively more positions in PS than there currently were--just "more." More being something more than less and since without the MAPS money, there'd be less positions than there are now (arguably), the promise very well could be in the 'kept' column. The state level? Wasn't aware the state had much if any rule in the matter and I wouldn't be looking to the state for any additional funds any time soon given its budget situation. I was suggesting the tactics used by the insurance defense folks, workers comp insurers, utilities, etc. If the rules aren't 100% in your favor, spend some money on some winning candidates and get them to rewrite those rules in your favor. barnold 06-19-2010, 06:32 PM RC-.........never mind, it's not worth the keystrokes. Go back fishing. Midtowner- yes, there was a promise of more positions with the passage of MAPS3. Now comes the end around play you allude to....they will cut positions first then hire 10, maybe....if they feel like it, and if the use tax isn't spent on something else. You can call it political wrangling if you would like, most folks call that a Bald Face Lie. Please stop watching all the Mafia and Hoffa movies, we haven't called our union president a "boss" since the 40's and you are using it in a derogatory manner to suggest something improper or illegal is going on with having representation. I could just as easily start calling the political parties leaders Republican or Democratic Bosses but it just doesn't fit, does it. The Union President takes his direction from the firefighter membership, like me a 23 year public service employee, and we the majority have directed him what our wishes are. It's kinda like a Democracy with "true" representation. You know, the kind that you are supposed to have at a city, state and national level. When's the last time you sat down and spoke with one of these individuals? Mikemarsh51 06-19-2010, 06:38 PM Methinks if you were so important the city would have found a way to keep your brilliance on staff! rcjunkie 06-19-2010, 07:27 PM Methinks if you were so important, they would cave in to your wants, give the raise you claim your not seeking and every year or two, deliver you a bright red, shiny new ladder truck. (they still might if you would just stop the games and admit the real, and only reason your upset, is because MAPS3 passed) I'm headed out on a night time poker run, if you have a little free time, practice your subtractions!! Mikemarsh51 06-19-2010, 09:09 PM Midtowner, you are way behind the curve. Oklahoma City Firefighters association has already publicly endorsed 2 republican candidates. James Lankford and Matt Jackson. You are welcome to come to the union office any weekday between 4-8 and help with those campains. Larry OKC 06-20-2010, 01:50 AM You too I see ! One last time--Budget process is intricate and complicated. When revenue is less then expenses--thats basic third grade math. I hope your spouse or better half takes care of your checkbook! I live within my means, thank you very much. What is so complicated about the budget process? You have "X" amount to spend and you don't spend more than that. Isn't it required by law that the City have a balanced budget? To make things simpler for the City, many of the 30+ funds have been set up as dedicated funds. Yet there are enough legal loopholes that they can get away with moving money from one pile to another. Not implying anything illegal here, but just because it is legal doesn't make it right either. And most don't even realize that it is going on. We here about the extreme examples (like the Bass Pro deal). Think things like Bass Pro happen on a more regular basis than most would expect (just not to the same dollar amount) I would love to believe that every member of the Council sits down and read every word of the 663 page City Budget report. But what probably happens, they look at what ever project is of interest to them (or their constituents) and concentrate on a small portion. Eyes glazing over on the rest. Maybe asking a question or two during department presentations, but when it comes down to it, they generally follow whatever recommendation the City Manager makes. "revenue is less then expenses". Got that. Sounds simple enough, but seems like they make similar claims every year...no matter if revenue is up or down..."we don't have the money". Along those lines, please explain how the City can spend money (expenses) from revenue it doesn't have in the case of the $5M - $42M Water deal? Got to love your "you too I see" comment. I read the PS threads and stayed out of from commenting on them for a while because I didn't have a dog in the fight. Claims were made from both sides (often without any links or supporting documentation). Interestingly enough, nearly every time I researched a particular claim by the PS folks, the City's own budget reports backed them up. The counter claims? Not so much. Now that doesn't mean I support the name calling that both sides engaged in. Understand, when attacked, most are likely to respond in kind. I try to stick to the facts of the posts/info involved and try to leave personalities out of it (not always the easiest thing to do). Instead of saying someone is a stupid, moronic, idiot that is partaking of some mind-altering substance (your choice). Just ask for their sources where they are getting their info and present the info I have found. There may well be conflicting sources of info and if that is the case, then we have to decide which is the truth..if diametrically opposed, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Have never been a big union fan either. In some cases I think they have served a need. In others they have driven themselves out of jobs (as jobs are outsourced and shipped overseas). Union work at GM and others was a great gig. While it lasted. GM is gone now and the great paying union jobs left with it. Larry OKC 06-20-2010, 02:28 AM 54% to 45% is a pretty big (9 point) spread. That's definitely not "barely passing." Elected officials refer to much less than that as a "mandate." True, but "barely passed" was used in articles written at the time when the original MAPS passed. By the same papers that supported its passage. Somewhere along the way even Mayor Cornett called the original MAPS as being a "mandate" during the campaign. Considering the higher level of passage of the 6 month extension, MAPS for Kids and the Ford/NBA tax, (would have to verify, but think all passed by 60%+ levels which is a 20+ point spread). To have the passage level drop back down to the 54% level even caused the Mayor to back off the "mandate" word. Choosing instead to say "we have been given an assignment". Agreed, 7 years from now, when we are talking about an upcoming MAPS 4, it will probably have morphed into a mandate again. Well, the MAPS III campaign said that if MAPS passed there'd be more positions. That's still a reasonable statement and it's still probably true. With MAPS does PS have more money than they'd have without it? Undeniably. Does that translate into more positions? Who knows. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one ever promised that should MAPS pass, there'd be comparatively more positions in PS than there currently were--just "more." More being something more than less and since without the MAPS money, there'd be less positions than there are now (arguably), the promise very well could be in the 'kept' column. I don't have the articles handy, but distinctly recall specific numbers attached (as opposed to a generic "more"). It was an increase but still short of what the City has admitted to being the needed staffing levels. Not further back, but not significant progress either. Given the economic climate that seems reasonable for now. Lets see how long we can tread water type of thing (my apologies to Bill Cosby). The promise was made that no matter what happened with other revenues, the Use Tax would be used and there wouldn't be any loss of PS positions (but only for a period of 2 years). You are correct, the Mayor was rather adamant that if MAPS 3 didn't pass, public safety problems would get worse (but supposedly, there aren''t any public safety problems). Surprisingly there hadn't been any mention of public safety in MAPS 3 until the anti-MAPS folks brought it up. It was only after that, that the Use Tax idea was floated. MAPS 3 was presented in its own little vacuum, seemingly immune from the realities that exist nearly every where else. The whole "rising tide lifts all boats" concept...we will take care of the staffing/manpower issues as the tide rises. From what I have gleaned from the post-MAPS budget reports is the rising tide was never used to address staffing needs but was just enough to cover the never ending cost increases for the employees it has (insurance, pay, benefits etc). Again, the PS folks have been hearing the same line since the original MAPS and signed on their support. This time they said, we have heard all of that before...prove that these aren't just more of the same empty promises and we can support it. andy157 06-20-2010, 05:07 AM If you think I'm a member of the PD or FD, you need to read closer.I don't think your a member of the PD or the FD. They're not wanting, expecting, or demanding a raise, maybe you should read a little closer. andy157 06-20-2010, 09:36 AM Andy, this isn't meant to reflect on you individually. Have you noticed how the more the firefighters on this board try to argue their case, the less sympathy they get from regular folks on this site? Once more, I ask, is it possible that the old union reliance on "hey, we're heroes, they'll believe us and take our side" doesn't work anymore? That maybe, just maybe, the "fighters" need to stick to fighting fires and they need to let a communicator get their message to the public? Seriously, the best thing that OKC firefighters could do at this point ils to examine how badly this online effort has worked and what can be done differently. Now, after a very long work day, I'm going to try to summarize the whole crux of this fight in a way average joes can understand - and possibly avoid rotten fruit being thrown by some of longtime fire and police friends: Way, way back when, the public was asked to approve the public safety tax. This was under a young, inexperienced mayor by the name of Ron Norick and a relative short-timer of a city manager (Terry Childers). The tax was a great way to beef up the ranks and buy new equipment, but it came with some future problems without any solutions. One, the cost of those police and firefighters salaries and benefits would ultimately grow faster than the tax itself. Two, there was a minimum staffing requirement built into the deal. (Guys, correct me at any time here) As the mayor got more experienced, and city staff began to realize what this meant, it created a problem for them because they felt it was forcing them to cut other departments' and services' funding just to keep up with firefighter and police costs. They tried various ways to work around this, a lawsuit was filed, bad things were said, and a judgment was handed down that clogs up the city council agenda every year. (Again, correct me at any time) The council and staff might have been more aggressive against the unions, but didn't dare after April, 1995, and with the presence of a few allied council members, the unions did pretty well for a while on contract negotiations getting raises year after year. But a shortfall and reorganization in the late 1990s led to the first attempt to clamp down on rising costs. This was a nasty battle that involved the struggling EMSA service and all sorts of complicated scenarios that left neither side very happy. This is where we get into ALS engine companies, what was promised, what wasn't promised. I could spend a few hours at this point digging into archives to figure out exactly what the heck happened - but I'm tired. The unions will give their side of this here on OKC Talk, and city management won't. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between. So now it's 2010. We're enjoying the national recession. I've seen a couple hundred people, several friends, lose their jobs. Salaries are flat for three years. What we're paying for insurance is up. And the police and firefighters are upset because they feel they've been shorted on promised raises, staffing increases, for several years. And they want this rectified, recession be damned. And as they try to argue this, they can't figure out why no one sympathizes with their cause. Somewhere up in Heaven, Mark Schwartz is looking down, frowning, and saying "guys, you need to regroup. You're going about this all wrong. Now here's the plan ..." (DISCLOSURE: All of this is from memory, so if I've messed it up, give me credit for trying) Steve, perhaps your right. Perhaps the Firefighters do in fact need the services of an outside professional public relations firm to tell their story. Perhaps those who haven't been able to grasp our message may be able do so hearing it from a reputible P.R. firm. That is of course, if they care in the first place, if not, then why waste the time, effort, or the money. Lets forget the contractual agreement between the City and the Firefighters regarding staffing levels. I guess since they're only employees it's OK for the City to disregard its contractual obligations. I wonder how many legal binding agreements with private business, or outside vendors the City has been able to get out of because they were short on money? I'm betting not a single one. If the Citizens don't mind NOT getting something for which they are paying extra for when told by a Firefighter, then would they if a P.R. firm was to tell them? Maybe so. If a P.R. firm told them they would be paying on 2 Fire Stations for the next 30 years, with bond money, at over twice the cost, would it matter? If they were told that in reality they were already paying an extra 3/4 of a cent in sales tax so the stations could be built and paid for with cash would that raise an eyebrow? If a P.R. firm brought to their attention that the $1,885,000. original cost of one of those two stations could have been paid for with the $977,000. budgeted in the last 2 fiscal years out of the 3/4 cent PSST for ghost employees would that mean anything? When a Firefighter informs them of the run down condition of the 13 rescue ladders only to be scoffed at, and labeled as complainers, and whiners, would that same message resenate as the truth if it came from someone else? I've mentioned countless times about the fact how those rescue ladders should be replaced with PSST money, thats what its for, not MAPS 4 KIDS use tax, but they're not. The City would say there is no money left over in the PSST to buy ladder trucks because of those overpaid Firefighters. However, the City knowingly and willfully violated a court order for years by paying for 15 secretarys out of the PSST, when it came to breaking the law they sure as hell had the money Regarding that issue, the Mayor as well as Councilman Marrs has told the Citizens that the City has spent 60 millon dollars of M4K use tax on Police and Fire which is a blatant lie. Maybe a good P.R. firm pointing out the lie would make a difference. But again, maybe the Citizens don't care. I wonder how many of the OKCTALKERS that we've pissed off don't mind being lied to? Steve, you and I are friends, I value your advice, and always have. I'll pass your suggestion on to the Union. I don't hold much standing as a retiree but I'll give it my best shot. Steve 06-20-2010, 09:47 AM Andy, I just think that in this day and age, it's difficult for any union to make its arguments solely based on contracts when the majority of the workforce isn't tied into such arrangements anymore. Do I know for sure that a PR firm will fix everything? No, I don't. But I suspect the firefighters would get a lot more bang for their buck than they did fighting MAPS 3. It's sad that all sides can't sit down and build an agreement and system designed for the 21st century. rcjunkie 06-20-2010, 11:04 AM Midtowner, you are way behind the curve. Oklahoma City Firefighters association has already publicly endorsed 2 republican candidates. James Lankford and Matt Jackson. You are welcome to come to the union office any weekday between 4-8 and help with those campains. James Lankford would be an excellent choice, good candidate to endorse. Larry OKC 06-20-2010, 11:52 PM I think the point Steve and others is trying to make is anyone will get a lot further if they can just stick to the facts. Try to keep emotions out of it (or at least in check). And absolutely, positively, keep name calling out of it. Debates on subjects quickly deteriorate to the name calling (my observation has been the side that does it 1st has run out of factual information). Then the other side responds to the attack, with an attack and so on and so on... Maybe a crash course in "How to Win Friends & Influence People"... Larry OKC 06-21-2010, 12:17 AM ...I wonder how many of the OKCTALKERS that we've pissed off don't mind being lied to?... It has been my experience that there are a few (not to mis-characterize ALL or even a majority) that being lied to doesn't seem to bother them at all. As long as they get what they are wanting, that's all that matters (or think they are going to get). That same attitude was expressed by the Chamber when the question was asked, if they would push for the keeping of the promises in the Campaign. Their response (not a direct quote) was that it wasn't their job. "Our job was to make sure MAPS 3 passed" (apparently not giving any regard to little things like the truth as evidenced by their grossly incorrect MAPS Facts website) bombermwc 06-21-2010, 09:00 AM Suggestion to FF's. Build up an actual fully documented presentation with solid statistics and let's present it. Something as simple as a powerpoint with graphs and a trending analysis can do wonders for your side. If you can turn me, (and if you really are having issues, then please do so), then you can turn anyone. Right now, I don't see a reason to change my opinion. Now don't take all my posts as saying I'm not willing to be swayed. If you have a good valid argument that can show the issues, then that's great. If the city really does have a need, then it needs to be shown to the public so the public pressures the powers. Until that happens, you can do whatever you want, but it won't make a difference. Voters are what politicians pay attention to. So either things will have to get so bad that the department isn't reliable, or you can do sone preimptive education to the public. Fighting something like MAPS only makes people want to work against you...you picked the absolute worst way to make your case. I'm not arguing just to argue, the evidence just isn't being presented. All the public hears is the same piss and moan fest over and over with the same junk. If there is an issue, then you need to spell it out with facts, not opinions. All the public has seen is media attention during something that has done nothing but help the city. Again, you probably couldn't have done anything worse than fight MAPS....bad bad mistake. PR boo boo #1....fight the popular project. Come on guys...show us the info. We've seen small bits here, but never the whole outlined high and low level spread. Midtowner 06-21-2010, 09:25 AM FF should be going after EMSA hardcore. That is *not* the best use of city money. If all the money going to EMSA was going towards fire and fire was able to do both jobs, a lot of duplicated effort and waste would suddenly be eliminated. barnold 06-21-2010, 01:42 PM Bomber and midtowner, Here's a study for you to begin with. I'll warn you it's a little long at 265 pages but it has all the pretty charts, graphs and numbers you've been looking for. It addresses what we've been attempting to let people of OKC know about for some time, staffing makes a huge difference! That is my main reason for enduring the cynicism and name calling of those that we will continue to protect. The final conclusion if you like to read the end of the story "Staffing is what saves citizens lives and property". Let me know what you think. http://firereporting.org/pdfs/2008_Year_1_Final_Report.pdf I'll start on the local side of it next for you. Midtowner 06-21-2010, 02:32 PM Until you guys hire someone who can convey that information to the general public, it's not doing you much other than to make you feel very secure in the righteousness of your cause. Your leaders aren't doing the job. Mikemarsh51 06-21-2010, 03:24 PM Our website is almost complete. There will be plenty of information provided. Steve, Midtowner, et al, we made approximately 75000 PR related calls last year. If you think that we are not going above and beyond to win the hearts of those we serve you are wrong. I really dont think any of our "customers" would think of us the way some of the kind folks on here do! andy157 06-21-2010, 04:39 PM Bomber and midtowner, Here's a study for you to begin with. I'll warn you it's a little long at 265 pages but it has all the pretty charts, graphs and numbers you've been looking for. It addresses what we've been attempting to let people of OKC know about for some time, staffing makes a huge difference! That is my main reason for enduring the cynicism and name calling of those that we will continue to protect. The final conclusion if you like to read the end of the story "Staffing is what saves citizens lives and property". Let me know what you think. http://firereporting.org/pdfs/2008_Year_1_Final_Report.pdf I'll start on the local side of it next for you.Oh my. You know barnold maybe if you could just hit the high points, give us a condensed overview, a readers digest version if you will, ya that would be nice. Mikemarsh51 06-21-2010, 04:47 PM Here is the link to the cities study on the fire department and relocation plan. You will not find any rigs being put out of service in the study. http://okc.gov/fire/fire_report.pdf Midtowner 06-21-2010, 04:55 PM Our website is almost complete. There will be plenty of information provided. Steve, Midtowner, et al, we made approximately 75000 PR related calls last year. If you think that we are not going above and beyond to win the hearts of those we serve you are wrong. I really dont think any of our "customers" would think of us the way some of the kind folks on here do! I've received so many calls from police and fire charities that whenever I answer the phone and the words "police" or "fire" are spoken on the other end, I just assume it's a for-profit fund raiser splitting things 95%/5% with one of your charities and I either hang up or politely end the call. Do you have someone at least advising your leaders on overall strategy? Do you have someone experienced in getting press releases published in newspapers? Do you have someone overseeing your common message? barnold 06-21-2010, 06:20 PM Midtowner, If we had a high priced PR firm would that make a difference to you? Why? The media as a whole doesn't have to air or print anything they don't see fit. Andy, I'll work on hitting the high points of the study for everyone, but i feel that it's time wasted. They asked for the studies and ppt's to prove the point, but I don't think they care enough to read through them and then ask questions. If i condense it, it could be construed as my opinion rather than fact. Midtowner 06-21-2010, 06:39 PM There are plenty of solo practitioner PR folks out there. You don't have to hire Ackerman McQueen to have someone as a designated spokesman, to monitor your public image, to write regular press releases/VNRs, etc. Steve 06-21-2010, 06:59 PM Our website is almost complete. There will be plenty of information provided. Steve, Midtowner, et al, we made approximately 75000 PR related calls last year. If you think that we are not going above and beyond to win the hearts of those we serve you are wrong. I really dont think any of our "customers" would think of us the way some of the kind folks on here do! No, those were calls where in many times lives were being saved but they weren't PR-related calls. To say so is a drastic misunderstanding of the practice of public relations and proves how badly you guys need a professional communicator. I keep going back to the your experience here at OKC Talk (and I'm sure many have been served by the fire department over the years) - how many people have you converted to your side of this issue? How many have you turned off? And if, as either you or another firefighter said, it's not your intention to persuade anyone on this site to support your cause, than exactly why are you continuing to argue for it here? I suspect you're taking my words as an attack on you, but if you stop, think it over, you'll realize that if these words were coming from the mouth of someone like Mark Schwartz, you'd be giving serious thought to all this. One more caveat - if you do hire a public relations person, be careful in who you select. I remember the FOP hired a public relations person during the Glitter Dome mess who was, at the time, one of the most disliked PR people in the news business (this person, for those who know who I'm talking about, has changed a lot since and is no longer hated). Amazingly, though, even this person made a slight difference for the FOP at the time. Steve 06-21-2010, 07:03 PM Midtowner, If we had a high priced PR firm would that make a difference to you? Why? The media as a whole doesn't have to air or print anything they don't see fit. Andy, I'll work on hitting the high points of the study for everyone, but i feel that it's time wasted. They asked for the studies and ppt's to prove the point, but I don't think they care enough to read through them and then ask questions. If i condense it, it could be construed as my opinion rather than fact. If you preface this by saying it's time wasted, than yes, it's time wasted. Another trick you could learn from a PR professional. tehvipir 06-21-2010, 07:56 PM Midtown. It’s hard to face a city government whom has ties to the wealthiest biggest names in the city. Even if he had the PR firm of the century I do believe that we wouldn’t get our message across. Why. One of which being that we have 1 newspaper. 1 option that everyone or most people read and believe like that 6 page slander they published just before maps came out about how much they think the ff makes. It stuff like that we are up against. I am not sure how to convey the message to the general public of what good equipment means to us as far as safety. Yes we understand and accept the risks that the job has but to take risks because we have faulty equipment isn’t right, no matter what the job or business is. Look I was against maps, I do think it will be good for the city I don’t think it was the right time as stated but we won’t go down that route as the issue is dead. I am not mad maps passed. I am upset that the promises made to the general public in which I feel was to gain more votes, has proven to be a lie. Like others said the way the city will look at this is yes lose 29 positions but f they hire 10 then technically they have increased fire protection. It’s a play on words. A play in which the common public wont understand I think that even RC math could understand how that can be confusing to some. How do you know that we didn’t talk to over 75000 people last year as PR? We talk to school kids all the time. We constantly have people calling the station for tours in which we TEACH about different issues such has fire safety. The decrease in fires means that we have been doing our job in education. Everyone loves the job and we have and I know that I wake up EVERYDAY looking forward to going to work. I graduated college in 2005 and took 3 years to get hired. I know many others that have been trying o get on the FD for 9 years. We thank the public for giving us the job we have. We constantly are getting thanks everywhere we go. It not us that should be getting thanks. It’s the tax payers that support us that give us the opportunity to help them. We may sound like we nag or complain but we are trying to get our message out in a known media biased city. If we never went against maps then there would even be LESS coverage over the issues with the police and fire than what you see now. WE might not have won the vote but we got the monkey out of the closet. Why don’t you see the problems we are talking about first hand? Because of what the fire chief said to the city council. That we will respond to the best of our abilities and give everything we have to the citizens and provide them with the best FD we can offer with what we have to offer them. That right there should say that we love our job and our citizens and that we are looking for their best interests when it comes to their safety. Midtown as stated on a different post I agree about the whole EMSA is a money hole lol. Well I hope that this might put a different spin on things as I am one of the newest members of the FD, and how my feelings about my job are seen in barnold whom has been on a long time and others whom have since retired or will retire and comment on this. We just want what’s safe for us to let us go home at night and for your needs when you call. tehvipir 06-21-2010, 07:56 PM yes. I finally used spell check. Steve 06-21-2010, 08:08 PM .................. Mikemarsh51 06-21-2010, 10:20 PM Steve, I guess you know best. After all you said so. Larry OKC 06-22-2010, 02:58 AM In direct conflict with promises made during the campaign (see previous posts by others) Summary of budget cuts in each department | NewsOK.com (http://www.newsok.com/at-a-glance/article/3469974) Summary of budget cuts in each department (Oklahoman, 6/21/10) Fire With 29 fewer firefighters, one fire engine and three brush pumpers will be taken out of service. The cuts will mean slower response times to emergency calls. Police Several programs will be cut as the department loses 22 sworn positions and four civilian jobs. Among the programs being cut are the mounted horse patrol and educational programs encouraging children to avoid gun violence and Internet predators. Derelict vehicle enforcement and drug interdiction also will be reduced. and for RCjunkie Parks and recreation In addition to losing 11 positions, several park programs will be reduced or cut completely. The city’s municipal gyms will have reduced operation hours. Nature programs will be reduced at Martin Nature Park. Carson Pool, at Sellers Park, will be closed. The Myriad Botanical Gardens gift shop will close. The James Stewart Golf Course restaurant will close. The Myriad Gift Shop is already closed, isn't it? rcjunkie 06-22-2010, 04:12 AM In direct conflict with promises made during the campaign (see previous posts by others) Summary of budget cuts in each department | NewsOK.com (http://www.newsok.com/at-a-glance/article/3469974) Summary of budget cuts in each department (Oklahoman, 6/21/10) and for RCjunkie The Myriad Gift Shop is already closed, isn't it? It was closed for the remodel of the Myriad Gardens, now the closer is permanent. (I hear there are volunteers that would like to reopen, and run a smaller scale gift shop) bombermwc 06-22-2010, 10:20 AM I examined the shorter document since it related to OKC. The larger document takes aboslutely nothing into consideration for OKC. It's a national prep document. From your own documentation, 78% of your calls are EMS incidents, not fire. only 14% are actually fires (page 22). You currently meet your responce time goals 90% of the time (page 44). In comparison to a very similar city (Jacksonville, FL), we have jsut about the same station per square miles, but with a LOWER population in that square mile...which cancels out the higher station per mile rate. Staffing and Engine Companies in that same comparison show we are in line or doing better than similar cities. (pages 62-63) Compared to JAX, we have almost HALF the fire calls per 10K citizens. So again, the numbers say we're doing fine. It does appear that dispatch is behind the curve on getting from 911 to dispatch the truck. That's an administrative role, which appears to be pretty bad at the moment. (pages 67-71) The areas that need expansion are currently rural. They need expansion to meet responce time goals, not because service is lacking. Some of the "goals" include redundancy. Part of the recommendations include restructuring responce areas to adjust the load on staations (80) If you look at page 82, you'll see how the 4 minute window is covering pretty much everywhere there is a population density (as it should be). So why does the study not reflect that? Page 96 is a perfect world scenario that won't ever happen. You always shoot for the sky and expect less. But the city can sustain this type of deployment. OKC is simply too distributed to make that reasonable. The following pages who that most stations aren't recommending any changes, just shifting equipment. I'm not going to examine EMS in this. Until EMSA and the FD are one, there will always be a redunant service provided. tehvipir 06-22-2010, 04:23 PM i am glad you read that bomber. Some have posted about how we run 4 man ALS engine companies and 3 man ladder and bls engine companies. I just read an article in a Magazine two days ago that talked about the proper staffing that is need to do the job affectively along with safely. the study was done in Montgomery County MD at the training facility there. The study consisted of 22 tasks that the companies were to perform and timmed from start until finish. it shows that a 4 man Engine company can accomplish those tasks in 25%faster than 3 man crews and 30% faster than 2 man crews. Now you may ask what that means. Basically they found that a 2 man crew would take aaprox 22:16min to complete the taks 3 man- 20:30min and 4 man 15:44min. now you are going to ask so what it s 5 min. it takes under 5 min for a fire to develop into a full room and contents fire and fire doubles in size every 30 secs. you can youtube that and see some amazing training videos to prove that. those 5 minutes mean a lot as far as saving someones pictures or personal belongings or even a life. We dont need to cut staffing just because we have less fires. Have you heard the news about how fat america in general is? 4 ff helps a lot and sometimes we need 7 plus emsa to help lift people. Bomber you are right. we would like t have more stations inthe rural areas and have them be ALS becuase if our response times are loner you KNOW EMSAs are even LONGER and providing the medical care needed is something we can do, but we cant staff those stations at the staffing levels we currently have. bombermwc 06-22-2010, 04:58 PM There is a nice chart showing the growth of a fire, I forget what page it's on. I believe the same chart shows by 16 minutes, you can assume the structure is destroyed. I wouldn't dismiss your statement about the improvements the additional manpower would make. But at the same time, I still the same issue that EVERYONE is having to make cuts right now, and have been for some time. I'd rather see the expansion go to coverage for the 4 new stations first and fill in manpower in existing locations later. That doesn't seem to be the main point of the arguements the users here make. All they say is "we need more people" without any specifics on how they do that. Simply adding more bodies doesn't always help. it's adding more bodies in the places they can best serve. Looking at the dispatch times tells me if the dispatch center can be expanded and the lag between 911 and dispatch can be improved, several minutes could be made up. That in itself could help to reduce the response time. Get to the fire more quickly, and there's less fire to work. EMSA sucks. They don't have the manpower to do their job efficiently. It's no surprise and it's been that way as long as they've existed. It's a crooked organization that is long past it's usefullness. They should have folded into the FD decades ago. But the same issue comes up, it's a redunant service. If you provide medical services out of say a rescue squad vehicle, why are you doing so? You do so to provide EMS care to stabilize a patient....why not transport the patient too. Again, why have EMSA at all? I know that's not the FD's fault or anything that can be controlled, but as long as it's a redunant service, you won't get more dollars from the city. They'll simply try and push them to EMSA instead. tehvipir 06-22-2010, 06:18 PM Bomber you are smart man. we need staffing in general before we are able to open new stations. when you open new station you promote the persons that have made the highly competative list of either 25 for SGT/lt/driver or 15 for capt/major/ officer. But it also takes ff below driver and officer to open a new station. Let sy we plan on putting just a BLS engine at 2 fire stations SW part of town like banner road. it would take 4 men per shift X3 shifts X2 stations. thats 24 personal just for the engine. Now being rural you would have to figure that they would more than likely have a brush pumper which would add at least 3-6 guys plus maybe a tanker which would add another 6 so looking at approx 36 persons to open two new stations. Did we mention we are already short 29 persons if NO one retires right now? so 29 +36 = 65 persons just to get us staffed IF we opened the two new stations. I realize and know that everywhere in the NATION they are making fd cuts and there have been reports that due to those cuts people civialian have died just a couple blocks from a fire house that was closed down in Boston. The issue is like we said that City promising and not keeping it. If they never planned on giving us more personal they never should have made those statements ina political move. Plain and simple. Maybe i am too simple minded. tehvipir 06-22-2010, 06:30 PM RC. Chef, A guy i work with with 30 years on says that if you at ten killer this weekend he wants to meet at Barnicle Bills at noon Saturday June 26th. H will bring his info and stats and would like ot have some luncha nd talk more about this in a civilized manner and a cold beer. He is old so take it easy on him. lol Mikemarsh51 06-22-2010, 08:33 PM So Bombermwc, did it say anything about shutting down any companies? Remember 2 stations are being rebuilt. There is no change with that. We voted in 2007 to build 3 new stations. That will have to add at least 45 more people. As of today our dept. Manpower is 922. In late 1989 we voted to add 200 firefighters, the number of employees at that time was 748. The public safety sales tax that we as citizens are paying for is now only providing 173 positions. The simple math is They are collecting a tax for 200 and spending the money for 173. If our city is required to run on a balanced budget how are they carrying a negative balance of 15 miilion dollars from fy 09-10 into fy 10-11? rcjunkie 06-23-2010, 05:10 AM RC. Chef, A guy i work with with 30 years on says that if you at ten killer this weekend he wants to meet at Barnicle Bills at noon Saturday June 26th. H will bring his info and stats and would like ot have some luncha nd talk more about this in a civilized manner and a cold beer. He is old so take it easy on him. lol I leave tomorrow for a motorcycle rally in Tennessee, does he live at Tenkiller, I would love to meet and chat with him someday, and of course I'll take it easy. Larry OKC 06-23-2010, 06:04 AM Have a quick question for those that are knowledgeable about the City Budget... Other than the plain & ordinary meaning, what does it mean when it says in the City Budget Report "Transfers between Operating Funds" that “Fire Sales Tax to General Fund” & “Police Sales Tax to General Fund” are (est) $11,263,377 & $8,647,270 respectively? As it does on page 43 (52 of the PDF) of the latest City Budget Report available for download from OKC.gov; finance tab. bombermwc 06-23-2010, 08:11 AM This is the root of the issue here folks....you think that because it was promised years ago, that it should happen today. All of this was "promised" back when OKC was protected from the economic downturn, and was actually doing better than everyone else. Once it caught up with us, things changed. Mayor Mick is far from the first person to not be able to deliver on something promised in the past. Budgets dictate what can get done...if there isn't money to do it, there isn't money to do it. Hell, check out ODOT and how they've operated on a 1980's budget ever since then. The only reason why they get anything done is because they get dollars from federal programs like the stimulus (which is what kept the I-40 project alive). Perhaps that's also a better place for the department to start looking for cash. It could be a turning point in how the department budgets. Instead of looking for so much of the budget coming from normal city budgets, why not instead search out the federal grant money for supplies/equipment. Same goes for some bond projects. That frees up normal budget money for manpower because you NEVER want to use temporary money to fund a person. If you want to look at someone that has become a master at it...check out our favorite money suck, Mr. John Whetsell. He's got more toys than FAO Schwartz. He's managed to buy a bunch of crap he doesn't really need and didn't really wisely spend that money, but the base concept is still there. So since we all seem to finally be able to discuss this like adults with real statistical data instead of children (and Im admitting that too), perhaps we can change this discussion to finding a way to get to the goal outside of playing the blame game. Let's be proactive and find a solution instead of simply complaining about it in a way that won't ever get anything done. I'm still 100% saying you won't get this money from the city, and the citizens still don't see the need. I understand what you're trying to say, but it's still not being said in a way that the average joe is going to get it or get on board with you. Larry OKC 06-23-2010, 08:25 AM ...All of this was "promised" back when OKC was protected from the economic downturn, and was actually doing better than everyone else. ... Sorry, but that doesn't match up with the timeline of events. And by most accounts, we are still doing better than "everyone else" barnold 06-23-2010, 01:04 PM Bombermwc, I sent you the link of the Manpower, aka staffing study, because it is a Nationally completed study that directly relates how quickly a fire is extinguished and the safety of the citizens directly in proportion to how many firefighters arrive on an apparatus. It also directly addresses firefighter safety and injuries and relates how an increase of staffing reduces workers comp claims. Ie. adequate staffing reduces time lost, medical bills etc. which makes the additional positions a wash as far as the bottom dollar to the city goes. As has been mentioned already, the study you referenced is a Fire Station relocation study that is 4 years old now with none of the recommended implementations complete. 2 stations are being built to close 2 stations. When these stations open/close, the current plan is to reduce total manpower of the fire department not increase it. You'll also note that the majority of the recommendations in the Fire Station relocation study are not being adopted as well. Why? The city believes it would cost them money rather than save them money.(my opinion) Just because 8 fire trucks roll up on a house fire doesn't mean you have adequate fire protection. If those 8 are staffed with 1 firefighter a piece, it's just a dog and pony show that looks really pretty to the average citizen but those that are doing the work know the jobs that need to be done to protect lives and property are not being completed. While OKC is not nearly as bad as that, we are understaffed and shorthanded without adding 3 brand new fire stations the study recommends. I go back to the earlier reference of what you don't know or see as a problem doesn't concern you. We are the fire experts whether you like it or not. You don't tell your surgeon he's doing it wrong and it costs too much; then fire the nurses helping him. You become informed prior to the surgery and choose the most economical and safest path for your well being. We are telling all those here that we've been performing surgery shorthanded for years and some pt's are going to die if we don't improve services. Our services have been delivered with lack of equipment, poor equipment and short staffed companies for years. The city is happy to pay more workers comp claims to injured firefighters and write off civilians lives that are lost. They don't see the cost savings even with the nationally studies and pretty charts and graphs. You'll also note as we talk about money issues, that none of the comparison cities in the Fire Station report are supplemented by a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax. The city is not spending yours, mine or anyone else's money in the most efficient manner when it comes to fire protection. That is the message we keep trying to tell everyone. Why does the city council ask for a $100,000+ study or recommendations from the Fire Chief only to tell the experts what they really need? If it's all about economics then we should just let every structure fire burn to the ground, write the owners a check for the building and funeral expenses and the city would be money ahead. History has shown us that while this is economical, it's not what taxpaying citizens want. Take the time to read the Staffing study link I posted and you'll understand what I keep saying. Whether anyone here likes it or not, is won over or not, You are being informed of the situation and it is getting worse. It will continue to get worse even with an economic upswing. How do I know this? Long History of being in the civil service and I've been thru this before. andy157 06-23-2010, 08:34 PM Have a quick question for those that are knowledgeable about the City Budget... Other than the plain & ordinary meaning, what does it mean when it says in the City Budget Report "Transfers between Operating Funds" that “Fire Sales Tax to General Fund” & “Police Sales Tax to General Fund” are (est) $11,263,377 & $8,647,270 respectively? As it does on page 43 (52 of the PDF) of the latest City Budget Report available for download from OKC.gov; finance tab.In this case it means one thing... Using dedicated and earmarked special purpose tax revenues to cover General Fund expenditures had the special not been created and accessible to provide financial/budgetary relief to the General Fund of the City of OKC. Plain and simple. I have a question for you. Why does the City Council cease all General Fund expenditures for Council/employee travel and then give General Fund dollars to the Chambers Economic Development Foundation so they can travel all over the world as they see fit. Larry OKC 06-24-2010, 12:47 AM Always found it a tad ironic that the Chamber of Commerce is a not-for profit andy157 06-24-2010, 06:27 AM Always found it a tad ironic that the Chamber of Commerce is a not-for profit I thought we passed a 75 mil. dollar G.O. Bond prop. for economic development so why are we still spending G.F. dollars? Talk about irony, the Councilman that wanted all City travel to cease is the Chairman of the OKC Economic Development Trust, which gives the money to the Chambers Economic Development Foundation. barnold 06-26-2010, 04:07 PM andy157, And yet no one is curious as to why the council has funneled over $700,000 to this trust for the Chamber's travel and expenses this year alone. Do they think no one is paying attention to where the money goes? And the media is where? Oh, yeah the citizens of OKC should hire a really good PR firm in order for anyone to really listen. Larry OKC 06-26-2010, 04:50 PM Am a little fuzzy on this but isn't the money that goes to the Chamber/CVB from the voter approved Hotel/Motel tax? Or are these funds on top of the tax? I would have just as much problem if they took money from that dedicated tax and diverted it to something else (as they appear to have done with the 3/4 public safety tax to the tune of $18M/year (mol) for at least the past 8 years. barnold 06-26-2010, 05:12 PM Evidently, not all money going to the chamber comes from the Hotel/Motel tax. Several entries coming directly from the cities general revenue fund to the Urban Development Trust, which in turn pays the Chambers travel and expenses. It's that long money trail they seem to try and disguise. As to the 18M/year (mol) out of the 3/4 PST, we the taxpayers have been informed that we should hire a PR firm to voice our disgruntlement in this matter. Mikemarsh51 06-26-2010, 11:41 PM I just wanted to say how nice the city is. In the FD negotiations, the city is offering us $1000.00 less per person for health insurance than every other city employee. You have to wonder where we rate with the city. rcjunkie 06-27-2010, 01:06 AM I just wanted to say how nice the city is. In the FD negotiations, the city is offering us $1000.00 less per person for health insurance than every other city employee. You have to wonder where we rate with the city. You should explain the reason for the difference's !!. It has to do with the FD not participating in the same insurance plan/program as the rest of the City employees. lump9816 06-27-2010, 08:23 AM So our membership has a trust that administers our insurance benefits, so what? We are all city employees, we all get the same amount of sick leave, vacation and so on. Why should we settle for less than all other city employees? |