Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.We have a permenate tax.

Had to return, logic, common sense and basic math did nothing.

Not sure why you would consider it an insult. Not exactly how everyone aspires to climb the ladder, but unquestionably effective.

Until you can answer any of the questions asked in this and other threads you choose to comment in, please refrain from playing the holier-than-thou card danielf1935/rcjunkie or whoever you are today.

Kind of sad really because we agree on about 90% of the topics on this board. Too bad you can't be right on the other 10%.

OKCmallen,

But I love anecdotes! Like this one.......I'm a big redhawks fan and love going to the games. They've had some downturn in revenues these past couple of years due to the economy. They had kept their players salaries pretty flat (minus some of the big draft deals to go to the BIGS). They did not ask their players to show up and play the same game with 6 or 7 players, yet that is that same thing the city has asked of the FD, PD and (this ones for your RC) all other city departments except management. The number of games we all play have increased and so has the length of the season, but now they would like for us to take a pay cut.

Now that i've thrown that one out there for you I'll start in on just the facts. But it will have to wait until tomm. since I'm taking all the kids to a drive in movie in Guthrie tonight. Enjoy the beautiful evening all......even you old, bitter and forgotten RC.


Me old and bitter. I'm retired @ 50, enjoying the easy life, spending half of the year at the lake, your working a job you obviously don't like, you constantly complain about how the City is treating Public Safety and how you have to work your butt off because your so understaffed---so tell me, who's' the bitter one.

I've never seen so many people that don't get it. Maybe you do, and don't mind paying for something and not getting it.

I agree, you Fireman just don't understand simple math.

Not sure why you would consider it an insult. Not exactly how everyone aspires to climb the ladder, but unquestionably effective.

Until you can answer any of the questions asked in this and other threads you choose to comment in, please refrain from playing the holier-than-thou card danielf1935/rcjunkie or whoever you are today.

Kind of sad really because we agree on about 90% of the topics on this board. Too bad you can't be right on the other 10%.

Knew you would go this route again, oh well, how sad that you do this when I disagree with your veiws or opinions, how shallow, but I'm not suprised.

Knew you would go this route again, oh well, how sad that you do this when I disagree with your veiws or opinions, how shallow, but I'm not suprised.

You're not just disagreeing with our views, you insist on resorting to name calling. Maybe it's such an ingrained part of your personality to belittle people that you don't realize you're doing it. Don't know, don't care and definitely won't sit back and pretend it's not happening. Like I've said many times before, just answer one of the simple, straight forward questions asked on this or any other thread without the name calling and it would help legitimize your views.

As far as the danielf1935/rcjunkie name change, I couldn't care less why you got banned or why you came back with the new name. I just find it a little insulting you continue to lie about it and expect us to ignore the obvious, all the while playing your holier-than-thou card.

The ladder comment about us taking better care of them was weak, what are you Junkie, 15 years old? That is typical of some managers though, blame the employees for all the problems!

3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?

Andy, this isn't meant to reflect on you individually.
Have you noticed how the more the firefighters on this board try to argue their case, the less sympathy they get from regular folks on this site? Once more, I ask, is it possible that the old union reliance on "hey, we're heroes, they'll believe us and take our side" doesn't work anymore? That maybe, just maybe, the "fighters" need to stick to fighting fires and they need to let a communicator get their message to the public?
Seriously, the best thing that OKC firefighters could do at this point ils to examine how badly this online effort has worked and what can be done differently.

Now, after a very long work day, I'm going to try to summarize the whole crux of this fight in a way average joes can understand - and possibly avoid rotten fruit being thrown by some of longtime fire and police friends:

Way, way back when, the public was asked to approve the public safety tax. This was under a young, inexperienced mayor by the name of Ron Norick and a relative short-timer of a city manager (Terry Childers).

The tax was a great way to beef up the ranks and buy new equipment, but it came with some future problems without any solutions. One, the cost of those police and firefighters salaries and benefits would ultimately grow faster than the tax itself. Two, there was a minimum staffing requirement built into the deal.
(Guys, correct me at any time here)
As the mayor got more experienced, and city staff began to realize what this meant, it created a problem for them because they felt it was forcing them to cut other departments' and services' funding just to keep up with firefighter and police costs.
They tried various ways to work around this, a lawsuit was filed, bad things were said, and a judgment was handed down that clogs up the city council agenda every year.
(Again, correct me at any time)
The council and staff might have been more aggressive against the unions, but didn't dare after April, 1995, and with the presence of a few allied council members, the unions did pretty well for a while on contract negotiations getting raises year after year.
But a shortfall and reorganization in the late 1990s led to the first attempt to clamp down on rising costs. This was a nasty battle that involved the struggling EMSA service and all sorts of complicated scenarios that left neither side very happy.
This is where we get into ALS engine companies, what was promised, what wasn't promised. I could spend a few hours at this point digging into archives to figure out exactly what the heck happened - but I'm tired. The unions will give their side of this here on OKC Talk, and city management won't. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between.
So now it's 2010. We're enjoying the national recession. I've seen a couple hundred people, several friends, lose their jobs. Salaries are flat for three years. What we're paying for insurance is up.
And the police and firefighters are upset because they feel they've been shorted on promised raises, staffing increases, for several years.
And they want this rectified, recession be damned. And as they try to argue this, they can't figure out why no one sympathizes with their cause.
Somewhere up in Heaven, Mark Schwartz is looking down, frowning, and saying "guys, you need to regroup. You're going about this all wrong. Now here's the plan ..."
(DISCLOSURE: All of this is from memory, so if I've messed it up, give me credit for trying)

I don't think any of the people who work in other departments or for other companies whose jobs and salaries have been cut spend anywhere near the time this group does complaining.

If I were that unhappy with my job, I'd go to one of those other cities that pay more than OKC and work there. Of course disposable income might be no better, but who's worrying about that?

3/4 of a cent is more than enough to do what it was intended to do. So why would you want to give them more?

If I can be shown it would be worth it, I'd pay it to have the penultimate FD and PD in the city.

However, that's not really what we're going for here: lush, full coffers for PD and FD. We need the basic done, and done well.

I still haven't seen ANY facts that our PD and FD in OKC are lacking to any unreasonble level. Hell, not one has even label a metric by which we can quantify. Response time? Homes burned down?

FYI, they just started collecting MAPS3 tax last month, the Ford Center tax expired at the end of April.

Only off by a month (from the MAPS 3 Ordinance, Ballot/Title)


...The Ordinance provides the term for the excise tax, which is a period of seven years and nine months, commencing at 12:00 a.m. on April 1, 2010, and ending at 12:00 a.m. on January 1, 2018. ...

Core to Shore is separate from MAPS. I am having a hard time understanding why you guys keep correlating MAPS projects with your department's problems.

MAPS 3 Use tax cannot be used until construction companies start turning dirt, which is typically when the city collects the use tax.

I have said this time and time and time again, you guys need to scream for a PERMANENT funding source for the police department, and not throw fits about a temporary tax.

Think about it. A temporary sales tax for police and fire. Are you telling me you'd be willing to campaign EVERY time the tax is about to expire? With a permanent funding source, your problems are over.

Some of the MAPS 3 projects are part of the Core to Shore so they are mingled a bit (particularly, the Park). The land purchased for some of the Park was spent a few months before MAPS 3 even went to a vote. The money used was authorized in the 2007 general obligation bond (IIRC, $6M of an authorized $26M).

Any associated Use Tax is collected by businesses and individuals (it is on the Oklahoma income tax form) when purchasing items outside of Oklahoma that don't have their own sales tax. Doesn't really have anything to do with local construction companies "turning dirt" (just the materials they might be purchasing elsewhere).

I agree that using a temporary tax is a bad idea. When the tax ends in 7+ years, that funding source goes away. But according to the City, this is a temporary solution until a permanent solution can be found. Also, the City has only agreed to earmarking the 7+ year tax for just the first 2 years. That video clip I posted of Prater said something to the effect that the City has pledged to sit down with the PS folks over the next to years and work out a solution.

The ladder comment about us taking better care of them was weak, what are you Junkie, 15 years old? That is typical of some managers though, blame the employees for all the problems!

Whats weak is your constant crying about how unfair the City's treating you poor firefighters--grow up.

You're not just disagreeing with our views, you insist on resorting to name calling. Maybe it's such an ingrained part of your personality to belittle people that you don't realize you're doing it. Don't know, don't care and definitely won't sit back and pretend it's not happening. Like I've said many times before, just answer one of the simple, straight forward questions asked on this or any other thread without the name calling and it would help legitimize your views.

As far as the danielf1935/rcjunkie name change, I couldn't care less why you got banned or why you came back with the new name. I just find it a little insulting you continue to lie about it and expect us to ignore the obvious, all the while playing your holier-than-thou card.


Not holier, just more knowledgeable when it comes to finance and the budget process.

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.

BOOMTOWN.

I haven't had a raise in the beginning of 2009. It's the economy, fellas. Things are getting better though.

The thing is, you really take the shine off your apple when all you "heroes" start whining incessantly about need more money and more credit. It's as though everyone else is doing wonderfully and you're the only people hit. We're getting hit too.

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.

We don't want a raise. We gave back our raise. Technically we tried that is at least until the city stonewalled that action during previous negotiations for a long overdue contract.

Why are we the bad guys for wanting our service to the public (our shareholders as you so eloquently wrote it) to suffer?

Nobody is complaining. Not one of the posters from the FD on this site have anything but love for the job they do. Is it not fairly important to keep care of public safety, and can't they be somewhat protected from the current budget crisis because they are infact needed in urgent circumstances which are dependent upon safe/controlled response? I wish that we could quell the inference on this site that we think we are entitled because we feel that we are heroes. This simply is not the case. We are involved in a business that requires certain safety calculations to insure that everybody goes home after their turn, and though sometimes what the public sees may seem mundane and not so glorious, almost every action we take on a scene is necessary for the satisfactory completion of that scene.

As a union, we are not villains, we are not Hoffa, we are just negotiating to ensure that our employees are not cheated, and that essential services do not suffer as the result of political misrepresentations. Cut us some slack.

You also, in my opinion, cannot draw the line between Nurses/Paramedics and the FD. To begin, a large number of FF are Paramedics and you will be hard pressed to find 20+ year paramedics (due mainly to burnout) who do not receive proper representation in contracts and proper benefits. The stress is just too high. Secondly, how many subsidies has OKC given to EMSA just to keep the lights on? You give EMSA a raise every year, just not their paramedics because it is eaten up by low and behold, administration fees and perhaps a board of oversight, essentially two forms of administration.

Nurses make a wage commensurate to those of FF's/Police and at times substantially better. Of course you don't subsidise nurses, you are too busy paying inordinate sums to the physician who will no doubt always stay above the economy. Probably rightly so.

The benefits that these other two professions enjoy are a direct result of their negotiations they also have unions see? You cannot compare apples to oranges, just as you cannot compare a lawnmower to a firetruck.

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.Are you saying shareholders actually have a say?

BOOMTOWN.

I haven't had a raise in the beginning of 2009. It's the economy, fellas. Things are getting better though.

The thing is, you really take the shine off your apple when all you "heroes" start whining incessantly about need more money and more credit. It's as though everyone else is doing wonderfully and you're the only people hit. We're getting hit too.Why do you and others keep harping about a raise?

[/COLOR]


Not holier, just more knowledgeable when it comes to finance and the budget process.

Like I said, until you can answer some of the straight forward simple questions posed to you, it's just you talking. Up until now you haven't shown us that you know anything about the budgeting process that isn't handed down to you from city hall. Maybe you can call some of your family members at city hall and get a more recent set of talking points.

But congratulations on getting past the denial stage of that other identity problem.

Hey Mikemarsh - its been a few pages since I've been able to respond, but FYI - I'm actually very happy with my job. My degree put me exactlly where I wanted to be, doing exactlly what I wanted to do. So don't try and make it into me complaining like you. The statements I said are a general reflection of what is occuring in business in general. Benefits are being lowered because their costs keep going up. More money is pushed toward shareholders and away from employees. It's a simple matter of how things run.

The difference in a municipal employee such as a fireman, is that your shareholders are the taxpayers. The budget adjusts to what the elected officials think it should be. In this case, you seem to be under the impression that you should be shielded from the economic woes everyone else feels. You are sorely mistaken sir. And as mentioned earlier, the argument of "but we're saving lives", doesn't fly. Otherwise I'd be giving a huge increase to all the nurses and paramedics out there that also save lives every day. They DON"T get a pension, have to work more than a few days a week, don't get to "hang out" until needed, etc. They actually work all day, every day, and for far less than you. So pull out the hankey, and stop up the snot.

You're the same guy that was trying to convince us that the guys at the MWCFD were tickled sh**less about having their promised 4 years of back raises reneged on by their city manager. All because they have some new stations and equipment. You read my next post, right? It took me all of 20 minutes to talk to one of them at the gas pump who said you must be smoking crack(his words not mine). Since then I've had the opportunity to talk to alot more of them. To a man they think you're full of it. And it's not snot but you might need a hankey yourself.

Why do you and others keep harping about a raise?

If you think I'm a member of the PD or FD, you need to read closer.

BOOMTOWN.

I haven't had a raise in the beginning of 2009. It's the economy, fellas. Things are getting better though.

The thing is, you really take the shine off your apple when all you "heroes" start whining incessantly about need more money and more credit. It's as though everyone else is doing wonderfully and you're the only people hit. We're getting hit too.

I don't think anyone on here has asked for either. Try to keep up.

And by the way, he doesn't think you work for the PD or the FD. He's wondering why you and others keep steering the conversation toward raises when no one else is. Once again, try to keep up.

Way, way back when, the public was asked to approve the public safety tax. This was under a young, inexperienced mayor by the name of Ron Norick and a relative short-timer of a city manager (Terry Childers). True

The tax was a great way to beef up the ranks and buy new equipment, True but it came with some future problems without any solutions YOUR Opinion. One, the cost of those police and firefighters salaries and benefits would ultimately grow faster than the tax itself Half truth since 200 FF & PD lowest levels personnel are paid by the sales tax, salary and benefits as whole are negotiated items which both sides negotiate every year. Two, there was a minimum staffing requirement built into the deal. True
(Guys, correct me at any time here) Working on it......
As the mayor got more experienced, and city staff began to realize what this meant, it created a problem for them because they felt it was forcing them to cut other departments' and services' funding just to keep up with firefighter and police costs. Your Opinion and don't forget that the FD and PD budget, aside from the 3/4 tax began to lose pace with other departments that didn't have dedicated funding.
They tried various ways to work around this, a lawsuit was filed, bad things were said, and a judgment was handed down that clogs up the city council agenda every year. True about the judgement, Your opinion about clogging up agenda's.
(Again, correct me at any time) Still working on it......
The council and staff might have been more aggressive against the unions, but didn't dare after April, 1995, and with the presence of a few allied council members, the unions did pretty well for a while on contract negotiations getting raises year after year. False, the unions offered to roll over the contract in 95 and have not received a raise every year as you state.
But a shortfall and reorganization in the late 1990s led to the first attempt to clamp down on rising costs. This was a nasty battle that involved the struggling EMSA service and all sorts of complicated scenarios that left neither side very happy. Sorta True, for the FD this was the Benson and Marrs era and was very complicated. Neither helped relations between the CM and council and the EMSA debacle still reigns on today.
This is where we get into ALS engine companies, what was promised, what wasn't promised. I could spend a few hours at this point digging into archives to figure out exactly what the heck happened - but I'm tired. The unions will give their side of this here on OKC Talk TRUE, that's where I'm the fly in your ointment, and city management won't FALSE they are all over this site. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between. True to an extent, but i tend to lobby for my love and passion of my career and have had first hand dealings with the City management for many years.....so yeah, I'm tired of being lied to.
So now it's 2010. We're enjoying the national recession. I've seen a couple hundred people, several friends, lose their jobs. Salaries are flat for three years. What we're paying for insurance is up.
And the police and firefighters are upset because they feel they've been shorted on promised raises FALSE, staffing increases FALSE, for several years.
And they want this rectified, recession be damned. And as they try to argue this, they can't figure out why no one sympathizes with their cause.
Somewhere up in Heaven, Mark Schwartz is looking down, frowning, and saying "guys, you need to regroup. You're going about this all wrong. Now here's the plan ..." FALSE Mark would more likely be saying Don't let those SOB's take another thing away without a fight, we've lost too much already.
(DISCLOSURE: All of this is from memory, so if I've messed it up, give me credit for trying)

I do give you credit for trying but most of what you've spun here is nothing but a one sided opinion that has little factual basis behind any of it. It's one of the things that makes you a great writer for the DOK. And that was not a piece of rotten fruit. You make it interesting to read.

Final Notice for those that haven't been able to understand all the previous posts.

We LOVE our Jobs and our Profession.
We haven't asked for a raise.
We don't call ourselves "heroes".
We LOVE our city and those that we have sworn to protect.

We do have the right to fight for a safer city, and will continue to do so. But the Titanic of OKC is not unsinkable and we've been trying to tell you "iceberg" for several years. Congratulations, you can finally see the tip of it out of the water but you have no idea how big it is under the surface.

The 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax is supposed to be in addition to our General Fund budget, not a replacement of the General Fund budget. Thats the problem that I see as happening for years and its caught up too the city. Our general fund budget has not increased in proportion to the rest of the other depts in the city general funds over the last 16 years. Sure insurance and salaries go up, but they do in other depts as well. Fire and Police are not the only ones this happens too.

The difference here is the citizens voted in 1989 overwhelmingly to support a 3/4 cent tax in addition to the general fund budgets both depts have. They voted to hire 200 additional firefighters and police officers, not 200 secretaries, not 200 public works workers, not 200 administrative staff, you get the picture, yet. The citizens voted to increase public safety period. No matter how you slice it, the FD is supposed to have 948 members, not 900 or whatever it is now. The citizens voted for it and they demand it. That is what they pay their 3/4 sales tax for.

If the city does not abide by this, then I think we should repeal the 3/4 cent sales tax since the city is obviously not using it in the way it was intended to be used. Then they can find a way to fund the Fire and Police depts strictly out of the General Fund like all of the other cities in our 10 city avg. do every year, with no 3/4 cent dedicated sales tax.

I have to agree with him Steve. If you think your post even came close to being objective, you've been working at the DOK too long. But hey, I'm sure that's a pretty good synopsis of what city hall has been putting out. By the way, like barnold said, in 95 we voluntarily rolled our contract over because it was the right thing to do. Not because the city was in any financial trouble.

So you don't want a raise, so what. That's not the point. That's not what you are arguing. I, for one, couldn't care less about that aspect. As long as a salary is adjusted at some point for inflation, whoopie-do.

My issue with all this crap is everything else. The constant nagging that the FF's think they are running with old crappy equipment...which they ARE NOT! You want to go see how the "other half" lives, go check out a small town and see what they've got. Even some of the towns in the metro are running rattle traps, OKC is about as far from it as it can get. We're not missing calls every day because trucks can't start or get to the fire. So don't act like we're all in danger of not getting service because you want new fancy crap.

You want more people - guess what, we'd all like more people at our jobs to help out. But also don't make it sound like the department is so short handed that things aren't getting done. It's false information and it's just simply not accurate in any way.

Until you are willing to give up a pension and work off a 401K like everyone else in the world, I don't want to hear a single iota of bitching about that aspect. You guys are freaking lucky SOB's to have it at all and should be kissing the ground it exists. Even when you work that second or third job to "occupy your time", you still get a pension when you get to retire. And at a significantly lower age than a teacher has to be.

I feel as though folks are losing sight of one aspect of our bickering here though. I doubt you will find anyone in this forum that has anything but respect for the men and women in both departments. We fully aknowledge that there are really a few bad apples in the mix...with which we get to interact with here.

And Wambo, your discussion with the MWC FF'er...I don't care. I have known several of them most of my life and they've been in the department for years and years. Same goes for the PD there. I don't have to rely on your "gas station" interpretation of my statements.

FYI to you guys in the departments that keep pissing and moaning here - in case you haven't gotten it yet, you have absolutley ZERO support for your complaints from the constituency here. And the way you go about your complaints makes everyone support you even less...ie the maps crap. All you've done from the beginning is harm yourself. If you had gone about this in the correct way, you might have been able to make a convincing argument. Perhaps the fact that there is no collection of the data to support you should tell you something.

Show us the presentation documenting your issues......

I don't think anyone on here has asked for either. Try to keep up.

And by the way, he doesn't think you work for the PD or the FD. He's wondering why you and others keep steering the conversation toward raises when no one else is. Once again, try to keep up.

Wambo, someone above in the thread starting talking about the lack of raises.

Read for comprehension, my friend.

Bommer

Listen, you are getting all lathered up for nothing.

It is a fact that a great deal of our apparatus have failed safety inspections and have been taken out of service or forced to operate in a manner for which they were not intended. I guess I cannot provide proof to this end because it isn't google-able, but I have personally ridden around in several "rattle traps" in the past couple of months, some whose areial ladder was inoperable/unsafe, some engines that would not hold water. If somebody likes, perhaps I can make a "Wikipedia" entry chronicling the fact so as to give you all something to look up.

As to the other facts which you claim have no provable significance, it would be a victory for us if you would simply consider, simply consider, what we are attempting to describe to you here. As it stands, it seems that the majority of this thread's viewership assumes that the city is right and that the FD is wrong based on what I can only assume is a tendency to assume that the city would do nothing criminal with monies entrusted to them. I am not saying that they are intentionally, criminally misusing money (tax money dedicated to PS).

What if they were misusing it unintentionally? If we have X dollars for PS every year and we add to it Y dollars from taxes we should be ahead of any city of like size and structure whose citizenry were not gracious enough to vote in a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax with which to bolster their respective departments.

This simply is not the case. Like sized cities are hiring personnel, perhaps not to grow but to maintain numbers, they are maintaining a fleet and in fact many have a larger number of installations. These are cities without a dedicated tax whose yearly revenues are comparable and cost of living basically equal.

If somebody would just allow us to ask for a real number breakdown, and perhaps join us in asking where this money is spent, perhaps we could all let the matter rest. The monies collected in the worst of times from 3/4 of a cent should still supplement our already lean budget and provide the citizens with a continuation of the top shelf services that they originally voted for. Everybody in the nation is doing with less, we are all prepared to do our part, but hardly anybody, if anybody enjoys a supplemental tax - we do. We shouldn't be leaner than those that havent the luxury.

What a cool place to live, a place that votes in a tax for public safety, that makes such a committment not so that I can have a good job that I love, but because it is looked upon as highly important to a good community, just allow us to reject the notion that it is all spent in the manner intended by the vote. We I think should all concern ourselves with where the money is going, exactly.

So you don't want a raise, so what. That's not the point. That's not what you are arguing. I, for one, couldn't care less about that aspect. As long as a salary is adjusted at some point for inflation, whoopie-do.

My issue with all this crap is everything else. The constant nagging that the FF's think they are running with old crappy equipment...which they ARE NOT! You want to go see how the "other half" lives, go check out a small town and see what they've got. Even some of the towns in the metro are running rattle traps, OKC is about as far from it as it can get. We're not missing calls every day because trucks can't start or get to the fire. So don't act like we're all in danger of not getting service because you want new fancy crap.

You want more people - guess what, we'd all like more people at our jobs to help out. But also don't make it sound like the department is so short handed that things aren't getting done. It's false information and it's just simply not accurate in any way.

Until you are willing to give up a pension and work off a 401K like everyone else in the world, I don't want to hear a single iota of bitching about that aspect. You guys are freaking lucky SOB's to have it at all and should be kissing the ground it exists. Even when you work that second or third job to "occupy your time", you still get a pension when you get to retire. And at a significantly lower age than a teacher has to be.

I feel as though folks are losing sight of one aspect of our bickering here though. I doubt you will find anyone in this forum that has anything but respect for the men and women in both departments. We fully aknowledge that there are really a few bad apples in the mix...with which we get to interact with here.

And Wambo, your discussion with the MWC FF'er...I don't care. I have known several of them most of my life and they've been in the department for years and years. Same goes for the PD there. I don't have to rely on your "gas station" interpretation of my statements.

FYI to you guys in the departments that keep pissing and moaning here - in case you haven't gotten it yet, you have absolutley ZERO support for your complaints from the constituency here. And the way you go about your complaints makes everyone support you even less...ie the maps crap. All you've done from the beginning is harm yourself. If you had gone about this in the correct way, you might have been able to make a convincing argument. Perhaps the fact that there is no collection of the data to support you should tell you something.

Show us the presentation documenting your issues......



Nicely put. I agree 100%.

A few things...

Some folks have mentioned that if the FF's don't like the mess they are dealing with, they should quit, and move into one of the burbs...which maybe hiring, and may pay better. This is an option for them...their pension will roll just fine...it's with the state...not the city. So...why don't they do this? Because they lose seniority. This affects vacation days, sick time...and all the frills. You know...just like any job. So there is a lil bit of scarafice on the FF's side. Which...tellls me, if they aren't willing to give up seniority...they really aren't that unhappy, or the issues really aren't that big.

Maybe the City management would open their eyes if we started losing FF's to other city's? Ya know...like how things work in the business world. I dont know why it would be any different in City Gov.

Also, at least we aren't in the shape of Tulsa. Aren't they running 3 FF's per truck? and had layoff's? Hey...wait....you mean they run 3 FF's per truck, and had layoff's and the city hasn't burnt down yet? Intresting.

What's OKC run...4 FF's per truck? What's Edmond run? and other burbs? What do small towns run per truck? Some run only 2!

I am all for having plently of staff, and I think we should pay FF's and PO's very well. We don't...and that's ashame. However, I think the FD and PD has presented their case very poorly and continues to. Maybe they should hire an outside service to help? Heck...you pay union due...what does that go for?

Hey...another idea...drop the union and get a raise! :) I know....I'm funny. You need the union. (sarcasm)

I do give you credit for trying but most of what you've spun here is nothing but a one sided opinion that has little factual basis behind any of it. It's one of the things that makes you a great writer for the DOK. And that was not a piece of rotten fruit. You make it interesting to read.

Well, correct me where I got it wrong. I tried to go down the middle here - and not make it opinion (other than you and your cohorts badly need a good communicator)

Like I said, until you can answer some of the straight forward simple questions posed to you, it's just you talking. Up until now you haven't shown us that you know anything about the budgeting process that isn't handed down to you from city hall. Maybe you can call some of your family members at city hall and get a more recent set of talking points.

But congratulations on getting past the denial stage of that other identity problem.

No denial here Skippy, but you go ahead and think what you want, that's how you react when someone disagrees with you or proves you wrong.

Bomber- I'll address your bitch session about apparatus after a few items. I get to deal with FD all over the city, state and country and can tell you that our rigs are not up to par in many areas especially with the fact that we have a dedicated sales tax. The pissing and moaning you speak about is pride in our profession, in our department and in our city. We want what is best for each one of those but are not foolish enough to think we can eat steak and lobster on a hamburger budget.

I owe OKCmallen a start to some of the issues- Lets start with the more with less. As Steve stated earlier, I'm pulling from memory so correct me if I'm wrong.

In 1999 the OCFD responded to just over 45500 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with 948 uniformed personnel.

In 2009 the OCFD responded to just over 78600 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with (on paper*) 948 uniformed personnel. *OCFD consistently runs with 30 vacant positions and 20+ long term injuries.

So in theory the same number of personnel are responding to more and more incidents every year. I say in theory because the department has consistently run short of manpower every year and only rarely hires enough to stay above the court ordered 948 min.
Does the general public see this? No.
Why Not? The general public doesn't care what the station number on the side of the rig says as long as a big red fire truck (BRT) arrives in a timely fashion. They don't get to see when the rig that would normally respond is out of service for the day because of staffing shortages, mandatory training or out on another incident. They just know a BRT came and helped them out.
Side bar problem of staffing shortages and increased call volume is also the response times. Closest firehouse should be coming to your emergency but because of staffing or they are out on another incident, another BRT has to be called from further away. We love helping people out and making the incident, but John Q citizen gets really pissed off when it takes 8 min to arrive instead of 4 min. and his house burns down, mother goes without CPR, gas leak continues, etc. Everyone thinks having a firehouse close to their home automatically means safety any hour their emergency occurs; but it doesn't.

Many have referred to the fire dept. doing business like a private company does business. Would love it! What company wouldn't add more employees or add more stores if they had the increase in business that the OCFD has had over the past 10 years. I wont' go much further back than that because many that like to bash on this forum were still in jr. high school or diapers then.

More to come......

[/COLOR]

No denial here Skippy, but you go ahead and think what you want, that's how you react when someone disagrees with you or proves you wrong.

No, that's how I react when confronted with a bald faced lie. Skippy

Nicely put. I agree 100%.

A few things...

Some folks have mentioned that if the FF's don't like the mess they are dealing with, they should quit, and move into one of the burbs...which maybe hiring, and may pay better. This is an option for them...their pension will roll just fine...it's with the state...not the city. So...why don't think do this? Because they lose seniority. This affects vacation days, sick time...and all the frills. You know...just like any job. So there is a lil bit of scarafice on the FF's side...and from my view point, they aren't willing to give up this seniority. Which...tellls me, if they aren't willing to give up seniority...they really aren't that unhappy, or the issues really aren't that big.

Maybe the City management would open their eyes if we started losing FF's to other city's? Ya know...this how things work in the business world. I dont know why it would be any different in City Gov.

Also, at least we aren't in the shape of Tulsa. Aren't they running 3 FF's per truck? and had layoff's? hey...wait....you mean they run 3 FF's per truck, and had layoff's and the city hasn't burnt down yet? Intresting.

What's OKC run...4 FF's per truck? What's Edmond run? and other burbs? What do small towns run per truck? Some run only 2!

I am all for having plently of staff, and I think we should pay FF's and PO's very well. We don't...and that's ashame. However, I think the FD and PD has presented their case very poorly and continues to. Maybe they should hire an outside service to help? Heck...you pay union due...what does that go for?

Hey...another idea...drop the union and get a raise! :) I know....I'm funny. You need the union. (sarcasm)


I guess I just don't know what you are talking about.

I would really like to influence you to believe in us.

Look, a person dials 911 for an emergency, any emergency and we are there within 4 minutes ready and willing and capable to satisfactorily accomplish any task. Stuck in a trench under hundreds of pounds of dirt in Lawton Ok, OKC will respond and fix it (Lawton might be a bit longer response time), get stuck in a flood, you don't call parks and rec, kid locked you outta your range rover and its really hot in there a big red truck to get them out.

The public trusts us, and we enjoy that relationship because this is a calling for most of us.

Why is it that you find us so "untrustable" (not uncrustable like the delicious jelly and peanut butter filled snack)?

We are not ignorant to the benefits we enjoy. We are proud of our job/benefits and it is perhaps one of the driving forces behind the multitudes of smart and able bodied men and women who apply when we have money for a recruit class usually between 2500 and 3000 applicants. Please don't preach to us about selfishness and or our being ingracious.

It is a job that can add tremendous benefits to a person's life, not without sacrifice though.

Though I often remark and sometimes snarkily so, about the benefits that physicians receive from the title they have, I do not think them unworthy. These are people who sacrificed large portions of their lives and bank accounts to reap the rewards they garner. Lawyers likewise, when the time comes I probably want an attorney who drives an Audi to defend me as opposed to the person who really likes my fire engine red Chevy HHR.

Why are we villains for making a list of 30-60 candidates out of a pool of perhaps 3000 hungry applicants, for having a pension? Why won't you trust us just enough to say, "hey, maybe they've got something, maybe they have a legitimate gripe..."

You'll trust that we will handle your emergency, and this is how it should be, we want that responsibility. Why are you so critical of the benefits that come with it?

Part of the question here may be can Oklahoma City afford to continue the sort of response that we enjoy to car accidents and medical emergencies. The firefighters are indeed running ragged running to crashes and medical calls, while the number of fires, I believe, is down year to year.
This is no reflection at all on the service of the firefighters. But one has to wonder if this is the structure - one that has fire and EMSA responding on calls - one would build from scratch.

Bomber- I'll address your bitch session about apparatus after a few items. I get to deal with FD all over the city, state and country and can tell you that our rigs are not up to par in many areas especially with the fact that we have a dedicated sales tax. The pissing and moaning you speak about is pride in our profession, in our department and in our city. We want what is best for each one of those but are not foolish enough to think we can eat steak and lobster on a hamburger budget.

I owe OKCmallen a start to some of the issues- Lets start with the more with less. As Steve stated earlier, I'm pulling from memory so correct me if I'm wrong.

In 1999 the OCFD responded to just over 45500 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with 948 uniformed personnel.

In 2009 the OCFD responded to just over 78600 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with (on paper*) 948 uniformed personnel. *OCFD consistently runs with 30 vacant positions and 20+ long term injuries.

So in theory the same number of personnel are responding to more and more incidents every year. I say in theory because the department has consistently run short of manpower every year and only rarely hires enough to stay above the court ordered 948 min. Does the general public see this? No.
Why Not? The general public doesn't care what the station number on the side of the rig says as long as a big red fire truck (BRT) arrives in a timely fashion. They don't get to see when the rig that would normally respond is out of service for the day because of staffing shortages, mandatory training or out on another incident. They just know a BRT came and helped them out.
Side bar problem of staffing shortages and increased call volume is also the response times. Closest firehouse should be coming to your emergency but because of staffing or they are out on another incident, another BRT has to be called from further away. We love helping people out and making the incident, but John Q citizen gets really pissed off when it takes 8 min to arrive instead of 4 min. and his house burns down, mother goes without CPR, gas leak continues, etc. Everyone thinks having a firehouse close to their home automatically means safety any hour their emergency occurs; but it doesn't.

Many have referred to the fire dept. doing business like a private company does business. Would love it! What company wouldn't add more employees or add more stores if they had the increase in business that the OCFD has had over the past 10 years. I wont' go much further back than that because many that like to bash on this forum were still in jr. high school or diapers then.

More to come......

This helps prove that the FD Funding is adequate, if your workload (number of calls) has increased as you state, yet your able to handle said calls, then for the past 10--12 years, you have apparently had a considerable amount of down time. (down meaning unproductive)

Well, correct me where I got it wrong. I tried to go down the middle here - and not make it opinion (other than you and your cohorts badly need a good communicator)

Communication is not the problem. Getting the whole story and portraying it accurately is.

Bomber- I'll address your bitch session about apparatus after a few items. I get to deal with FD all over the city, state and country and can tell you that our rigs are not up to par in many areas especially with the fact that we have a dedicated sales tax. The pissing and moaning you speak about is pride in our profession, in our department and in our city. We want what is best for each one of those but are not foolish enough to think we can eat steak and lobster on a hamburger budget.

I owe OKCmallen a start to some of the issues- Lets start with the more with less. As Steve stated earlier, I'm pulling from memory so correct me if I'm wrong.

In 1999 the OCFD responded to just over 45500 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with 948 uniformed personnel.

In 2009 the OCFD responded to just over 78600 incidents. This includes fires, ems, drownings, haz mats, etc. The department accomplished this with (on paper*) 948 uniformed personnel. *OCFD consistently runs with 30 vacant positions and 20+ long term injuries.

So in theory the same number of personnel are responding to more and more incidents every year. I say in theory because the department has consistently run short of manpower every year and only rarely hires enough to stay above the court ordered 948 min.
Does the general public see this? No.
Why Not? The general public doesn't care what the station number on the side of the rig says as long as a big red fire truck (BRT) arrives in a timely fashion. They don't get to see when the rig that would normally respond is out of service for the day because of staffing shortages, mandatory training or out on another incident. They just know a BRT came and helped them out.
Side bar problem of staffing shortages and increased call volume is also the response times. Closest firehouse should be coming to your emergency but because of staffing or they are out on another incident, another BRT has to be called from further away. We love helping people out and making the incident, but John Q citizen gets really pissed off when it takes 8 min to arrive instead of 4 min. and his house burns down, mother goes without CPR, gas leak continues, etc. Everyone thinks having a firehouse close to their home automatically means safety any hour their emergency occurs; but it doesn't.

Many have referred to the fire dept. doing business like a private company does business. Would love it! What company wouldn't add more employees or add more stores if they had the increase in business that the OCFD has had over the past 10 years. I wont' go much further back than that because many that like to bash on this forum were still in jr. high school or diapers then.
More to come......

Talk about a bad comparison, if a private company had a similar increase in business, yet they were able to do so with present staff, that just means more profit in their pocket (and apparently employees that were either goofing off or had way too much free time)

No, that's how I react when confronted with a bald faced lie. Skippy

Wambo, from all of the proof you have/have been provided, it's apparent you can't handle the truth.

RC

In both responsed to BArnold I feel you are misspoken.

It is not that staffing is adequate, it simply isn't. What it means is that as stations are increasingly taxed for time, they have significantly less time to train in safety measures, tactics and hands on skills that could save a life be it fireman or citizen.

We have a long list of monthly schools to accomplish every month, as well as skills maintenance and custom training as prescribed by the station officers to address target hazards for a particular area.

This is serious stuff, stuff that legitimately means life and death. I do not intend to be dramatic, but if you deny it your just being blatanly obdurate.

If you look at corners that have to be cut currently and will have to be cut in the future to keep up with this increasing call volume I think that perhaps you would feel differently and perhaps you would recant.

Wambo, from all of the proof you have/have been provided, it's apparent you can't handle the truth.

Be specific, you're talking in circles now. You haven't answered a straight question yet. I'm tired of asking them and watching you flail around hurling barely legible gibberish and then acting like you've accomplished the task. Try answering one of the questions asked of you or continue to flail around, either way is up to you. I know where my money is.

Communication is not the problem. Getting the whole story and portraying it accurately is.
Barnold - name one person on this site that you guys have turned into a supporter of your cause. Just one person. And then sit back and ask yourselves - honestly - how many people have you turned off?
You guys work hard. I know this. You guys do a lot of good in this community. But you're doing damage to yourselves, at least online, by continuing with the approach you've been using.
Go ahead, accuse me of being in bed with city hall or brainwashed by the city manager. I can almost assure you the suggestion I'm making to you - to get a good communicator to tell your story - is probably an idea that city staff would prefer you ignore. I'm sure they're quite happy with things going as they have. Not all criticism is an attack. Instead of hitting the keyboard and firing off a response, stop, sit back and think. You spent years perfecting your skills, building strength, learning the latest tactics to save lives. Did any of that training involve communicating with the public? Of course not. The suggestion that you're bad at communication is not an insult any more than I'd be insulted if someone told me I suck at fighting fires. Fighting fires is not something I know how to do.

Just as a frame of reference: if it were learned that men and women in a warzone were feeling an increased burden to maintain security of an area as well as man patrols and all the while the environment was becoming increasingly hostile and dangerous despite the hard work of the fighting men and women, recruitment (up to and including a draft perhaps) would likewise increase.

Please do not think that I equate the job I do with the Job of a soldier, but a person who is willing to risk their lives for you and yours might deserve similar consideration. That is perhaps where my parallel to the military ends, but in an domestic emergency it is PS that are given this charge.

You may not choose to view it this way, but I think that it would be wise to keep security issues well staffed - always.

And Wambo, your discussion with the MWC FF'er...I don't care. I have known several of them most of my life and they've been in the department for years and years. Same goes for the PD there. I don't have to rely on your "gas station" interpretation of my statements.

Wow, I wonder what the chances are that between you and I we know all these guys and yet we don't know any of the same ones. I couldn't care less of your opinion of my statements. What I know is that between the guys I grew up with who work there and having a room mate who worked there and all the guys I know from working together in statewide FF activities who also work there, not to mention the guys whose kids play sports with mine and the guys whom I see at church, none of them seem to support your position. Granted that's not all of them but in the last 25 years or so I've known alot of them. It just puts your view in perspective is all.

RC,
It's the perfect example. Besides increased response times, increased injuries to personnel which costs the city more money, and god forbid loss of life of okc citizens; how long do you think the finger in the dike will work before the dam explodes?

Steve- I know you're not in bed with city in anyway or fashion. However, my friends that are still employed by the DOK tell of a different story with the company and the attitudes in which their (not implying yours) journalism is expressed. That is their right and free speech is a good thing.
I'm not looking to Win over anyone here. Most here are not the majority of blue collar workers that make up OKC; especially it's voting population. As to the communication aspect, that is part of my job and life everyday. I get the opportunity to express about something that I'm passionate about. In fact I get to do this quite often all over the state and country. If you would remember meeting me, my communication skills would be the last thing you would worry about. Spelling on the other hand is at times a challenge. Thank god for spellcheck.
You can have the greatest Orator in the world working for you, but if his message is only a edited clip on tv or two lines in a paper, you never know the entire story line.

Barnold - name one person on this site that you guys have turned into a supporter of your cause. Just one person. And then sit back and ask yourselves - honestly - how many people have you turned off?
You guys work hard. I know this. You guys do a lot of good in this community. But you're doing damage to yourselves, at least online, by continuing with the approach you've been using.
Go ahead, accuse me of being in bed with city hall or brainwashed by the city manager. I can almost assure you the suggestion I'm making to you - to get a good communicator to tell your story - is probably an idea that city staff would prefer you ignore. I'm sure they're quite happy with things going as they have. Not all criticism is an attack. Instead of hitting the keyboard and firing off a response, stop, sit back and think. You spent years perfecting your skills, building strength, learning the latest tactics to save lives. Did any of that training involve communicating with the public? Of course not. The suggestion that you're bad at communication is not an insult any more than I'd be insulted if someone told me I suck at fighting fires. Fighting fires is not something I know how to do.

Steve

To be really honest I rarely respond to your posts because I think probably, I am outclassed. You have a very sound knowledge of all things city and though I will only subscribe to the Daily in the off chance that I get a parakeet, I think your arguments are sound, but not necessarily right.

We do not need to convert OKC talk participants. As I read it, it is most often a different lot that post on here as opposed to those who might value our services. Our standing in the communities we serve are intact and arguing amongst what appear to be a bunch of lawyers and doctors and somewhat selfimportant beings (including myself maybe) won't change a thing.

I don't think that my impression of you even verbally addressed here will influence your reporting and if it does, that's something a news man would have to reconsile for himself. It just seems odd to me that when standing in the line to buy groceries on duty with money contributed from our own wallets or while in the front yard of a person to whom we delivered a free smoke detector there is nothing but praise and support for the exemplary and totally mortal efforts we put forth, and the cause for which we fight. Get on a forum with people who are too cool for school and watch em get their dander up.

Barnold - name one person on this site that you guys have turned into a supporter of your cause. Just one person. And then sit back and ask yourselves - honestly - how many people have you turned off?
You guys work hard. I know this. You guys do a lot of good in this community. But you're doing damage to yourselves, at least online, by continuing with the approach you've been using.
Go ahead, accuse me of being in bed with city hall or brainwashed by the city manager. I can almost assure you the suggestion I'm making to you - to get a good communicator to tell your story - is probably an idea that city staff would prefer you ignore. I'm sure they're quite happy with things going as they have. Not all criticism is an attack. Instead of hitting the keyboard and firing off a response, stop, sit back and think. You spent years perfecting your skills, building strength, learning the latest tactics to save lives. Did any of that training involve communicating with the public? Of course not. The suggestion that you're bad at communication is not an insult any more than I'd be insulted if someone told me I suck at fighting fires. Fighting fires is not something I know how to do.

Steve

To be really honest I rarely respond to your posts because I think probably, I am outclassed. You have a very sound knowledge of all things city and though I will only subscribe to the Daily in the off chance that I get a parakeet, I think your arguments are sound, but not necessarily right.

We do not need to convert OKC talk participants. As I read it, it is most often a different lot that post on here as opposed to those who might value our services. Our standing in the communities we serve are intact and arguing amongst what appear to be a bunch of lawyers and doctors and somewhat selfimportant beings (including myself maybe) won't change a thing.

I don't think that my impression of you even verbally addressed here will influence your reporting and if it does, that's something a news man would have to reconsile for himself. It just seems odd to me that when standing in the line to buy groceries on duty with money contributed from our own wallets or while in the front yard of a person to whom we delivered a free smoke detector there is nothing but praise and support for the exemplary and totally mortal efforts we put forth, and the cause for which we fight. Get on a forum with people who are too cool for school and watch em get their dander up.

Just a bit of a random guess on my part, but one would suspect the tone of conversation of a PS worker who is standing in the grocery line or the front yard is likewise far lower on the dander scale than that which is often exhibited here when someone does not heavily concur with the position presented by a PS member.

Sometimes if not spoken loudly, you all would never hear what we have to say.

Listen or not its not my game. If one hears, then thats victory enough for me even if it is just in resonance that the words penetrate increasingly thick skulls.

Please do not think for one second that we do not hear as well.

Just a bit of a random guess on my part, but one would suspect the tone of conversation of a PS worker who is standing in the grocery line or the front yard is likewise far lower on the dander scale than that which is often exhibited here when someone does not heavily concur with the position presented by a PS member.

KP, they needn't concur with the position, just disagree without the name calling and the rhetoric. I know most of the PS workers here and if you want to have a civil discussion face to face, you could be there all day. If you want to start the name calling, the best you could hope for is they'll get up and walk away, although that's not the way most of us are wired.

KP, they needn't concur with the position, just disagree without the name calling and the rhetoric. ...

Can agree with that, in both directions.

It's sometimes difficult to return to a thread because there's a lot of sparring to slog past to get to something that is not a rehash.

I don't know the optimal personnel balance points, and don't pretend to.
As I've noted in past, my primary interests rest with having friends who live/work in areas serviced through OKC PS departments along with being an infrequent visitor to the community. My interest was higher in the past, but work had me in South OKC then, with my time split rather evenly between OKC and Norman then.

Thus my interest runs more toward PS being properly equipped. I don't advocate the latest and greatest from the gee whiz section suppliers offer. But yeah, the notion of shutting down a truck purchase to upgrade cox dinna set well. While that was corrected, other equipment shortages have been noted amongst all the back and forth.

FWIW, to have boat cruises over bus routes or an adequate number of fully functional ladder trucks (whatever number = adequate) does not make sense to me.

Conversely, if fewer people are handling 40-50% higher annual callouts without major incidents, while dealing with equipment shortages, that raises questions of its own. Of course, perhaps it's all a matter of pure blind luck blankets wrapped around deep skill sets, and those blankets are getting a touch thread bare.

I'm not trying to call one side dead bang on over the other. But as an outsider looking on, as often as not, neither extreme presents a strongly persuasive argument.

BomberMWC, OH you got me with that Boomtown, took me a while to recover! Why don't you in the interest of fairness tell me your profession. That degree obviously empowers you to pass judgement on my profession, so I was just curious about what it was in. Oh, by the way I have one too!

Wambo, someone above in the thread starting talking about the lack of raises.

Read for comprehension, my friend.

No, he was saying that the other municipalities who are going through the same recession we are are either staying put or increasing, not cutting. He never once said anything about wanting an increase in pay.

Wambo, from all of the proof you have/have been provided, it's apparent you can't handle the truth.

I very easily could may have missed it, but exactly what proof have you provided? The instances I recall have been along the lines of you saying "that is 100% false" and then throwing out some stat that you didn't offer any support for. When asked for it, no response. When presented with the actual, factual numbers from the City's own budget reports (with links to the reports and page numbers etc), again, silence on your end.

I very easily could may have missed it, but exactly what proof have you provided? The instances I recall have been along the lines of you saying "that is 100% false" and then throwing out some stat that you didn't offer any support for. When asked for it, no response. When presented with the actual, factual numbers from the City's own budget reports (with links to the reports and page numbers etc), again, silence on your end.

They don't really want the truth, it doesn't fit their "conspiracy theory".
What it really comes down to is basic, third great math, no matter where your dollars come from (general fund, special use tax, dedicated sales tax) if your revenue is less then your expenses, cuts must be made.

They don’t really want the truth, it doesn’t fit their “conspiracy theory”.
What it really comes down to is basic, third great math, no matter where your dollars come from (general fund, special use tax, dedicated sales tax) if your revenue is less then your expenses, cuts must be made.

You answered a question that wasn’t asked (they aren’t interested in the truth). What proof have you provided?

As far as the “basic, third great math” I have another question for you (or anyone)...

If the City doesn’t have the money (they obviously don’t considering the cutbacks etc) then where are they getting the extra “$5.2 million payment is due July 1” for the Sardis Lake water?

How about the $27 million the state owes (that the City is paying)?

Or the $42 million they have offered to pay (on a $25M debt)?

Oklahoma Water Resources Board approves Sardis Lake deal for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-water-resources-board-approves-sardis-lake-deal-for-oklahoma-city/article/3467837)

Where is all of that money coming from if the City doesn’t have it? If it is hidden in some previous bond project, then the actual cost is double or triple the stated amounts (after paying the money back with interest).

Not sure if it is 3rd Grade math, but someone please help me with it....

You answered a question that wasn’t asked (they aren’t interested in the truth). What proof have you provided?

As far as the “basic, third great math” I have another question for you (or anyone)...

If the City doesn’t have the money (they obviously don’t considering the cutbacks etc) then where are they getting the extra “$5.2 million payment is due July 1” for the Sardis Lake water?

How about the $27 million the state owes (that the City is paying)?

Or the $42 million they have offered to pay (on a $25M debt)?

Oklahoma Water Resources Board approves Sardis Lake deal for Oklahoma City | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-water-resources-board-approves-sardis-lake-deal-for-oklahoma-city/article/3467837)

Where is all of that money coming from if the City doesn’t have it? If it is hidden in some previous bond project, then the actual cost is double or triple the stated amounts (after paying the money back with interest).

Not sure if it is 3rd Grade math, but someone please help me with it....

It's obvious that you don't understand City finance or the budget process as well, when I have more time, I'll pull the info I have and from this proposed budget that explains said expenditure's.

If it is as simple as you say it is, shouldn't be difficult. I am anxiously awaiting your info.