No kidding on this - scratching my head as to what need it meets in those with constant negative/critical comments. Like, OK- then, don't live there. As Chris Rock said (years ago) about people hating on rap music: "Its not FOR you!"

What is in the mind of this massive group of people that feel compelled to express their hatred for something that has absolutely nothing to do with them? You don't like it, then don't buy there, don't eat there, don't spend your money there... That type of anger has to come from a place of deep unhappiness.

I think that's overstating it a bit. Its the internet - an headline read quickly while scrolling during a lunch break. Posting a comment with the first thought on one's mind costs nothing and is done quickly and easily. The culture incentivizes opinions be communicated in as inflammatory a manner as possible, no matter how initially innocuous. There are surely people who do fulfill the rage-filled internet troll stereotype in their daily lives, but for the most part I expect people who comment even very negatively live fulfilling lives and are just expressing their own personal views in the way the current culture has taught them to.

(which isn't to say I agree with the specific negative views on Wheeler or that I enjoy negative nancies on the internet; I'm just saying I wouldn't assume someone's personality and life situation just from an internet comment)

I think that's overstating it a bit. Its the internet - an headline read quickly while scrolling during a lunch break. Posting a comment with the first thought on one's mind costs nothing and is done quickly and easily. The culture incentivizes opinions be communicated in as inflammatory a manner as possible, no matter how initially innocuous. There are surely people who do fulfill the rage-filled internet troll stereotype in their daily lives, but for the most part I expect people who comment even very negatively live fulfilling lives and are just expressing their own personal views in the way the current culture has taught them to.

(which isn't to say I agree with the specific negative views on Wheeler or that I enjoy negative nancies on the internet; I'm just saying I wouldn't assume someone's personality and life situation just from an internet comment)

Fair enough, however...

Something has to be inside for it to come out.

The internet just removes a filter, similar to drinking. And there have been studies that confirm the old adage, "Drunk words are sober thoughts".

It's a small mind that can't comprehend how different people like different things at different stages in life.

I love this development but I just spent 25 years in incredibly dense areas and I'm very happy on my centrally-located 1/3 acre with 20 mature trees. At the same time, I completely understand the appeal of Wheeler and why people want to live downtown. I also understand they don't need all 1.5 million people in the OKC area to want to live in the Wheeler District, just a few thousand and clearly they are having no trouble selling homes and drawing businesses.

I also highly doubt any of those people have even bothered to walk around down there and take it all in because there is no way not to be impressed, even if you don't want to buy a home there.


What is in the mind of this massive group of people that feel compelled to express their hatred for something that has absolutely nothing to do with them? You don't like it, then don't buy there, don't eat there, don't spend your money there... That type of anger has to come from a place of deep unhappiness.

Or envy.

One thing I noticed on that thread that a lot of the people said things like, "I don't want to live that close to other people." Well, fine, don't, lol. I mean, there are plenty of places in the country to move to if you are so inclined.

Also, a lot of Okies really don't like new things, and are seemingly repelled by them.

Or envy.

One thing I noticed on that thread that a lot of the people said things like, "I don't want to live that close to other people." Well, fine, don't, lol. I mean, there are plenty of places in the country to move to if you are so inclined.

Also, a lot of Okies really don't like new things, and are seemingly repelled by them.

but…but…but…WHERE WILL THEY ALL PARK?!?!?

The OKC page on Reddit is convinced this will be a massive failure.

LOL. And yet…it’s already a success.

Not only is Wheeler a success, but it's a huge success.

They are selling homes as fast as they can be built, have lured nice restaurants, services and retailers, constructed an elementary school... And they are just getting started.


It may not be for you but anyone trying to argue it is not wildly successful reveals themselves to be ignorant.

I think that's overstating it a bit. Its the internet - an headline read quickly while scrolling during a lunch break. Posting a comment with the first thought on one's mind costs nothing and is done quickly and easily. The culture incentivizes opinions be communicated in as inflammatory a manner as possible, no matter how initially innocuous. There are surely people who do fulfill the rage-filled internet troll stereotype in their daily lives, but for the most part I expect people who comment even very negatively live fulfilling lives and are just expressing their own personal views in the way the current culture has taught them to.

(which isn't to say I agree with the specific negative views on Wheeler or that I enjoy negative nancies on the internet; I'm just saying I wouldn't assume someone's personality and life situation just from an internet comment)

Every on-line article should have a 3 question quiz about the article that the reader must pass with a 100% score before being allowed to comment.

I've been active on the Internet almost since inception. I've run several forums even before OKCTalk. I've met dozens and dozens of people IRL that I first met electronically.

And one thing I've learned is this: Anyone who says, "I'm not really an a-hole but I like to play that role online" really is an a-hole that can maintain in-person niceties on a superficial level but is generally an angry and hateful person. Not all the time and not exclusively, but those qualities are an integral part of the personality.

I believe very, very strongly that the internet just removes a filter. And as I said before, something has to be inside before it can come out. So much so that when I find myself getting angry or impolite online, I try very hard to stop and remind myself that is not who I want to be; I try to take responsibility, own my actions, grow, and be a better person.

So, to dismiss very ugly comments as "just being on the internet" is to remove accountability for words and actions. And the more a person does that, the more they are indulging their own worst impulses without restraint or healthy examination, and the cycle feeds on itself.

Kind of interesting. I thought all wheeler properties were tied into geothermal?
Geothermal hvac still requires electricity to run compressors, fans, etc. Photovoltaic solar panels produce electricity. They are very complementary.

I have a friend and former coworker that years ago drove by this and was talking to me about it. She said no one should live that close to their neighbors and every needs a big backyard because people have pets. I ended up wasting about 30 minutes of my time explaining why it is a great development when I should have just said, "if you don't like it, don't live there but don't tell other people what they are supposed to and not supposed to like. If I had the money, I would move there in a minute, but I don't".

I have a friend and former coworker that years ago drove by this and was talking to me about it. She said no one should live that close to their neighbors and every needs a big backyard because people have pets. I ended up wasting about 30 minutes of my time explaining why it is a great development when I should have just said, "if you don't like it, don't live there but don't tell other people what they are supposed to and not supposed to like. If I had the money, I would move there in a minute, but I don't".
She’d probably be shocked by how many people in high rise apartments have pets.

She’d probably be shocked by how many people in high rise apartments have pets.

Yep. I told her my brother lives in Brooklyn with two mid-size dogs in a 600 sf apartment. It is doable...

And again, it doesn't f&*king matter. Why does someone have to hate on something they have absolutely no intention of buying because they don't like it?

Sorry Chad, my rant for the day...

The only legitimate criticism Wheeler should get is the massive TIF package they got of $85 million or whatever. It was unnecessarily large for a subdivision. Its success has shown the TIF was basically a give away.

Other than that, anyone saying this wont or isnt working is delusional.

I wonder if they're starting to think of where the next OKC based development will be?

How many acres do you all think is necessary to really create something like this?

^

They own all that property on the east side of Western, so it's going to take them a couple of decades to max out.

I mentioned this in a different thread a while back, but I think the land north of the "Britton" district could be ripe for something like this. I'm talking about west of Broadway Extension, east of the train tracks, between 97th and 104th. This is a strange area of nothingness that is nevertheless very well-placed geographically within the metro area, only a few blocks north of an emerging urban district and well-designed roads could merge perfectly with an existing neighborhood. Some of that area has a tradition of struggling a bit, this could be a huge shot in the arm.

Keep in mind, I don't live in OKC and I have no money to do this but it's just kind of a dream. I have always been perplexed about that area.

^

They own all that property on the east side of Western, so it's going to take them a couple of decades to max out.

Really? I don't feel like it's going to take a couple of decades unless they're purposefully slow (not a bad strategy, mind you). I could easily see them completing the rest of the West Side by end of decade and the East side probably will be mostly housing so, that *could* potentially be done reasonably within 6-8 years of there continues to be a decent chunk of single family homes.

If they start making it substantially denser from here then, yeah, I could see it taking that amount of time (which is why I like the slow strategy)

Still, I'd think with the success of Wheeler that by the time they're at 70% they could be kicking off another project because they likely have enough capital back and surely the confidence of their investora to deliver returns.

The only legitimate criticism Wheeler should get is the massive TIF package they got of $85 million or whatever. It was unnecessarily large for a subdivision. Its success has shown the TIF was basically a give away.

Other than that, anyone saying this wont or isnt working is delusional.

Or, is it a success because of the TIF? Take away the TIF, it probably isn't AS successful. $85 million is a lot for this project.

Granted, you can't do that with 100% certainty, as I think the project as a whole, assuming the economy recovers, will more than make up for that over time. Like I said, I want it to stay successful, and I will gladly be wrong if it stays on its current trajectory.

If I recall, they didn't take the whole TIF award up front, which is more to say than most developers

I mentioned this in a different thread a while back, but I think the land north of the "Britton" district could be ripe for something like this. I'm talking about west of Broadway Extension, east of the train tracks, between 97th and 104th. This is a strange area of nothingness that is nevertheless very well-placed geographically within the metro area, only a few blocks north of an emerging urban district and well-designed roads could merge perfectly with an existing neighborhood. Some of that area has a tradition of struggling a bit, this could be a huge shot in the arm.

Keep in mind, I don't live in OKC and I have no money to do this but it's just kind of a dream. I have always been perplexed about that area.

Garrett and Co. has put together the biggest position in that area. They definitely build some SFHs through their real estate arm, although I haven't seen them develop anything approaching the level and scale of Wheeler or Carlton Landing.

What has Wheeler been using the TIF award for, anyway? There's a lot of infrastructure being installed for this project and it seems rational to use the TIF money to pay for it if that is what has been happening.

According to this it was $120 million

"In 2017, Oklahoma City Council approved a plan to create a $120 million tax increment financing (TIF) district for the Wheeler development (ad valorem tax increase will generate $11 million over the long term), calling for 2,000 housing units in addition to office, retail and other commercial space constructed over the next two decades."

https://housinginnovation.co/design/wheeler-district-oklahoma-city/

and here https://www.okgazette.com/news/wheeler-district-development-moves-forward-2981181

Not only is Wheeler a success, but it's a huge success.

They are selling homes as fast as they can be built, have lured nice restaurants, services and retailers, constructed an elementary school... And they are just getting started.


It may not be for you but anyone trying to argue it is not wildly successful reveals themselves to be ignorant.

Current data doesn't reflect this. Currently there are 17 active homes for sale in there, with an average of 89 days on market. Actual DOM range from 5-334 days. Active average PPF is $349.47

Pending data shows there are 5 under contract. Average DOM is 38. Range is 0-159 DOM. PPF is $335.23

Sold data in last 6 months is 16 total homes. Average DOM is 24. Range is 0-139. PPF is $327.10.

Shows me, just like most places, that home sales have cooled a bit in there. It's def the most inventory I've seen for sale at one time.

^

Aren't some of those still under construction?

I think a little over half are under construction. However, in the past few years, for the most part, those were usually snatched up in the construction phase so buyers could put their own custom designs on them during build out. A lot more spec houses are finding their way on the open market.

^

Aren't some of those still under construction?

I walked through the neighborhood the other day and almost none of the Oso Ave homes for sale are completed.

I think a little over half are under construction. However, in the past few years, for the most part, those were usually snatched up in the construction phase so buyers could put their own custom designs on them during build out. A lot more spec houses are finding their way on the open market.

You could argue that it was just crazy demand that caused the under-construction homes to go under contract so rapidly and now things have just leveled off.

Considering the huge jump in interest rates and the fact the $/SF rates keep going up, IMO it's pretty amazing they are continuing to sell homes at a healthy clip, especially since the healthiest part of the market is around the $250-$300K range and Wheeler is way above that.

Doing some quick math, everything for sale is well over $300/SF with some as high as $400... And all are on the tiniest of lots.

I won't be buying there anytime soon but I still marvel at what they are able to charge (and what buyers are willing to pay).

It's been more successful that I ever thought so I am happy for them.

My biggest beef is the ridiculous TIF amount given to them to turn around and build homes that the VAST majority of people out there cannot afford. Just seems disingenuous but I will admit I am probably on an island with that opinion.

What has Wheeler been using the TIF award for, anyway? There's a lot of infrastructure being installed for this project and it seems rational to use the TIF money to pay for it if that is what has been happening.

Theres a lot of infrastructure installed in any new neighborhood. And most neighborhoods arent nearly as dense or as profitable on a per square foot basis as wheeler. Why did Wheeler need $120 million when we would never consider giving TIF money to any other home builder building out a new neighborhood?

Theres a lot of infrastructure installed in any new neighborhood. And most neighborhoods arent nearly as dense or as profitable on a per square foot basis as wheeler. Why did Wheeler need $120 million when we would never consider giving TIF money to any other home builder building out a new neighborhood?

Because it was such a big piece of land in a part of the city, inner south, which is not the most appealing. It needed courage and vision to go forward with that.
I am very happy with the result.

Any plans for stoplights on the north/south entrance?

It's a little tough turning left across traffic leaving wheeler heading towards the river

Any plans for stoplights on the north/south entrance?

It's a little tough turning left across traffic leaving wheeler heading towards the river
Western needs a complete makeover. Rebuilt and add a median and roundabouts with protected bike lanes.

Any plans for stoplights on the north/south entrance?

It's a little tough turning left across traffic leaving wheeler heading towards the river

Early on renderings showed a roundabout at the north entrance. Not sure if that is still the case any more.

Any plans for stoplights on the north/south entrance?

It's a little tough turning left across traffic leaving wheeler heading towards the river

We went to Taco Nation and drove around a bit last weekend, said the exact same thing while leaving...

Right turn onto Western out of Wheeler, then left onto SW 22nd, right onto Olie, right onto SW 23rd, and right onto Western would probably be less stressful and only take a couple minutes longer.

Early on renderings showed a roundabout at the north entrance. Not sure if that is still the case any more.
Public Works was not a fan. Concern regarding fire apparatus, etc.. Not sure if the idea was abandoned or simply shelved. By the time they start developing across Western the thinking might have shifted at the City.

Public Works was not a fan. Concern regarding fire apparatus, etc.. Not sure if the idea was abandoned or simply shelved. By the time they start developing across Western the thinking might have shifted at the City.

The developers also wanted to make Western 2 lanes. With Walker already down to 2 lanes due to the bike lanes, a 2 lane western would put even more stress on the North/South Arteries for Southside commuters.

We were told there was funding this year to begin the process for the installation of the roundabouts but that it was pulled at the last minute. We weren't told why it was pulled, but I got the sense that it was due to a particular person not wanting to fund it. We were also told funding may be in the next budget for it, but there were no guarantees. People regularly go 60+mph down Western in this section, so something needs to be done to slow traffic.

Public Works was not a fan. Concern regarding fire apparatus, etc.. Not sure if the idea was abandoned or simply shelved. By the time they start developing across Western the thinking might have shifted at the City.

Looking back on the front page with the layout of the development, there seemed to be two intersections created with the roundabout on the south end (my mistake) and another intersection further north. I assume your statement holds true for both?

Yes. But again, I don't personally know the current status.

18005

Here is the current master plan. Blue areas are planned commercial (most likely residential over commercial)

That plan will need to include another pool or three if there is truly that many planned units.

Interesting to compare the master plan with an aerial taken a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler042723a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler042723b.jpg

What’s the current speed limit on that stretch of Western?

Assuming they will drop it to 25 mph or so once the roundabouts are in place?

Interesting to compare the master plan with an aerial taken a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler042723a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler042723b.jpg

According to the realtor, the next phase of the building will be to fill in the southern portion along with the apartment complex. Next will be to go north to the river. Then east across Western and fill that in within the next 10ish years, they said.

So it looks like the south part is will under construction and I would guess the apartments on the south end would start soon as well. It seems like the runway is the staging area for most brick, etc, so it will interesting to see if they move that and start north on the runway or further to the west.

Pete, have you heard anything about more commercial space being built? It seems like there are a lot of buildings in the plans, but I don't know if they will be at the same time as the residential. I would assume it would be more residential at first and then commercial once it is needed and everything is leased out. The houses are selling really fast so I could see them focusing more on that than anything else.

What’s the current speed limit on that stretch of Western?

Assuming they will drop it to 25 mph or so once the roundabouts are in place?

It’s 40 mph right now, but people absolutely gun it down that stretch of Western as there are no stoplights for over a mile. Really they could keep it at 40 mph even after installing the roundabouts, it’s just that there would finally be some inducement for people to actually go the speed limit. Definitely think they need to keep that stretch of Western at four lanes, it is fairly heavily trafficked. There’s more than enough room on the east side of Western to build a two-way bike path from Wheeler to the river trail, and I think that would be the safer solution in any case.

One thing that I never noticed that I just saw when comparing the current overhead view and rendering pic is that from SW 15th all the way to the river, the streets will be connected to the neighborhood to the west. It wouldn't surprise me to see some of the houses close to Douglas changing hands soon for the anticipation of development moving north. Looking on zillow (take it for what it is worth) there are houses in that area ranging from $20,000-$120,000. If someone were to come in and buy a bunch, rent, hold out, they could sell just the land to a builder who would buy it, tear it down and build something new.

They are going to have to find a way for homeowners on the east side of Western to safely cross that very busy road.

Not just for the amenities but especially for the school, which is a big selling point.

I wonder if they are considering a pedestrian bridge over Western.

If all of those proposed buildings along Western are actually built that close to the road with street trees, the speed issue along Western will resolve itself.

If all of those proposed buildings along Western are actually built that close to the road with street trees, the speed issue along Western will resolve itself.

This.

If all of those proposed buildings along Western are actually built that close to the road with street trees, the speed issue along Western will resolve itself.

Not only that but we spend millions making the streets as flat and smooth as possible, then wonder why people speed. If this actually got built like this I would make the roundabouts and road between them out of brick.

They are going to have to find a way for homeowners on the east side of Western to safely cross that very busy road.

Not just for the amenities but especially for the school, which is a big selling point.

I wonder if they are considering a pedestrian bridge over Western.
Not a chance. Pedestrian bridges are antithetical to quality urbanism, and this is intentionally one of the most true-to-form new urbanist developments in the U.S. right now. They will fight to bring about at-grade crossings that are safe, regardless of whether the roundabouts make the cut. However this ends up, it will be a purposeful demonstration to the rest of the city that safe at-grade crossings, pedestrians, bicycles and automobiles traveling on a reasonably busy arterial street CAN peacefully coexist.

Not a chance. Pedestrian bridges are antithetical to quality urbanism, and this is intentionally one of the most true-to-form new urbanist developments in the U.S. right now. They will fight to bring about at-grade crossings that are safe, regardless of whether the roundabouts make the cut. However this ends up, it will be a purposeful demonstration to the rest of the city that safe at-grade crossings, pedestrians, bicycles and automobiles traveling on a reasonably busy arterial street CAN peacefully coexist.
This is all so wrong. This development goes against everything real urbanism stands for. It’s a white flight suburb for those who want to live some weird Truman Show type lifestyle. That said I think this development is cool and very interesting. I am enjoying seeing it go up. But you think they won’t consider a pedestrian bridge across Western for this?

Ironically, The Truman Show was filmed in Seaside, the first built from the ground up New Urbanism community.

Ironically, The Truman Show was filmed in Seaside, the first built from the ground up New Urbanism community.
Yeah I watched a documentary about that. Very interesting. I love new urbanism communities and I do “like” the Wheeler District but I don’t think of it in terms of being something to be proud of. It seems its success is prompting mimics like Liberty Park in Edmond. I am going to be VERY interested in seeing how that development progresses and how it stacks against the Wheeler District.

The developers have a very interesting past history in case anyone wants to look.

Ironically, The Truman Show was filmed in Seaside, the first built from the ground up New Urbanism community.

correct. and you also won't find a pedestrian bridge anywhere along 30A. the wide majority of that highway is limited to 25 mph (definitely through the very best parts, like Rosemary), and it never gets wider than 2 lanes.

This is all so wrong. This development goes against everything real urbanism stands for. It’s a white flight suburb for those who want to live some weird Truman Show type lifestyle. That said I think this development is cool and very interesting. I am enjoying seeing it go up. But you think they won’t consider a pedestrian bridge across Western for this?

Please, tell us what real urbanism stands for. Obviously it is all being built from scratch so there's no reclamation aspect other than the land, but it is kind of laughable to claim a neighborhood built within inner Southside OKC is representative of white flight. And have you actually spent much time in Wheeler District? From what I've seen in my time there it is actually more diverse than most OKC neighborhoods.

Please, tell us what real urbanism stands for. Obviously it is all being built from scratch so there's no reclamation aspect other than the land, but it is kind of laughable to claim a neighborhood built within inner Southside OKC is representative of white flight. And have you actually spent much time in Wheeler District? From what I've seen in my time there it is actually more diverse than 90% of OKC neighborhoods.

What Wheeler clearly needs is for Western to be turned into a larger, 6 lane boulevard. /s