^
you can see the encampment and the strewn garbage on google maps, so it must have been pretty bad.

I'll get down there with my drone to get a detailed look at exactly what is happening here.


The homeless situation is just so heartbreaking but at the same time, these camps create a lot of problems.

It was a 9 hole Par 3 golf course. May have had a driving range too. I worked at AT&T with the guy that owned it in the late 70s early 80s and I would occasionally fix the lawn mowers he used to keep it mowed.

Ah...I must have missed the 9 hole...maybe it was converted to a driving range at some point? I didn't move here full time until '86, and only hit balls there a couple of times before it closed. Maybe late 80s or very early 90s. It was closed by the time I discovered downtown airpark lunches, and that would have been circa '92 or '93.

Ah...I must have missed the 9 hole...maybe it was converted to a driving range at some point? I didn't move here full time until '86, and only hit balls there a couple of times before it closed. Maybe late 80s or very early 90s. It was closed by the time I discovered downtown airpark lunches, and that would have been circa '92 or '93.

Pretty sure it was mid-90's... I moved my office downtown in 92 and I think I remember it still being there a couple of years after I moved down there.

I've always wondered how many golf balls are still buried in the ground out there.

Any grove of trees is endangered in this city.

I wish there was something we could do. I love trees.

I wish there was something we could do. I love trees.

100%. You and me both.

In all fairness, they are planting a ton of trees in the neighborhood. No reason to think they won't do that on the east side of the development once it starts.

I wish there was something we could do. I love trees.

I know, I'm still not following why the trees are being cut. If anything, we should be planting trees not cutting them with the lot setting empty for 10+ years. Makes no sense to me.

If it's a homeless issue, then they need to secure their property not cut down the trees. But that's my opinion.

From this (Saturday) morning:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022b.jpg

Well that sucks. I hope they are planning on doing something soon in this area. Otherwise it just seems senseless to remove the trees.

^

You can see the huge piles of trash.

I'm sure this was to do something about the huge, incredibly trashy homeless camp that was growing by the day.

When I recently stumbled upon it, it was pretty shocking. I bet people using the path felt unsafe and I saw a bunch of trash being thrown/blown into the river.

I can confirm the people who were camping in there have been a consistent problem. As others have mentioned, they were throwing a ton of trash into the river. I started complaining to the city about it—and the amount of trash in general in the river—after I saw dead water fowl stuck in a bunch of the trash in that inlet. And when I say it was a lot of trash, I mean it was effectively a dump. The people have been stealing items from various areas, returning here to strip them down for metal, and then throwing the rest into the river. The camp has also been a source of drugs and violence.

I learned about much of this after I visited a nearby homeless encampment to see if they needed anything before winter and through the course of a rambling conversation the residents told me that particular camp pictured above and another one right off Walker are known amongst the homeless population as places to avoid because of issues of violence. Depending on your perspective, either out of curiosity or stupidity, I visited both of those camps and I could immediately tell it was different than the other camps and the people here were clearly “rougher,” to say the least. There were literally dozens of stolen bike frames stacked up and stripped of their components, people making drugs in large holes in the ground, makeshift weapons laying around, etc. At the time of day I went (I think it was Sunday morning), there were only a few people present and they mostly ignored me (this is an interesting story I could tell some other time).

Anyway, I agree that it is a major shame the trees have been taken down. I don’t know if the camp is the reason they were taken down, but I can confirm that camp has been an issue on multiple fronts.

Of course oklahomas only way of dealing with it was destroying more nature.

^

There are also massive liability issues for both the Wheeler District and the city.

I try very hard to be compassionate and nonjudgmental, but when I walked through that area it was one of the very few times in my life that I've felt unsafe.

I should have taken photos because it was nothing less than appalling.

Here are some closer looks at the mountains of trash:

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022e.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022f.jpg


HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022g.jpg

^

There are also massive liability issues for both the Wheeler District and the city.

I try very hard to be compassionate and nonjudgmental, but when I walked through that area it was one of the very few times in my life that I've felt unsafe.

I should have taken photos because it was nothing less than appalling.
It just sucks that they couldn’t have cleared the underbrush and left the trees. That could alleviate some security issues and preserve the area for a future park when the Wheeler District gets extended east.

Clear the underbrush and install bright lighting. A few of those temporary job site diesel-run light arrays (they even make solar) run every night for about a month would move them along somewhere else. Senseless and maddening to not pursue some other recourse before literally a scorched earth approach. Those trees had to have been 20-30 years old?

At least. Probably 30+ some of them.

Clear the underbrush and install bright lighting. A few of those temporary job site diesel-run light arrays (they even make solar) run every night for about a month would move them along somewhere else. Senseless and maddening to not pursue some other recourse before literally a scorched earth approach. Those trees had to have been 20-30 years old?

The lighting equipment would be dismantled and sold for parts within 12 hours.

As opposed to dismantling 30 years of beautiful trees within 12 hours to toss in a landfill. They really showed us...

Wheeler will end up planting hundreds of trees on this parcel, just as they already have done on the other side of Western.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022d.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022c.jpg

Wheeler will end up planting hundreds of trees on this parcel, just as they already have done on the other side of Western.
It doesn’t hurt to have existing semi mature tree growth. What they planted will take 10+ years to reach the tree cover these old trees did. I don’t mean to keep beating this horse but I’m sick of seeing constant clear cutting around the metro. At least Edmond implemented a tree cutting policy. There’s a tree genocide happening in LA everywhere I look a massive, beautiful tree is being cut down.

Keep in mind that purposely planted trees live longer, look better and can grow very quickly. They often replace trees that are prone to disease, are not very attractive, etc.

I remember the outrage about Bicentennial Park and now the trees are very nice and will be much nicer than what was there before.


Like everything else, we simply know much more about landscape design and trees/plants than we did even 20 years ago. Look how awesome the Myriads Gardens is now, and those were all planted trees and plants.

It can suck in the short term, but beyond that professionally landscaped areas are always going to be better.

Yes I suspect the current planted trees will grow faster but hopefully still be resilient to higher winds and storms like native trees. I don’t think this patch of trees was watered or maintained so I’d guess they were at least 30 years. Any trees that are planted and watered should reach this growth quicker.

I frequently use that trail and at least a dozen times have had run-ins with dogs that would come out of that wooded area and bark and chase me down. It was quite frustrating and a little scary. Hopefully these occurrences will decrease with this demolition…

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This is the inlet right by Pete’s pics above from tonight. A few of the campers have migrated over under the Western Ave bridge.

From this (Saturday) morning:

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022a.jpg


http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022b.jpg

I really, really hate this for our city. It has happened dozens of times.

Other cities manage to be giant and awesome and pro-business and pro-growth and protect trees, like ATLANTA! You have to obtain a variance there to fell a tree anywhere in city limits. As a result, the city has a beautiful mature canopy of various hardwood and pine trees that resembles some of the greatest wilderness areas of southeastern Oklahoma.

By contrast, Oklahoma developers seem content to scar and denude the land, creating barren landscapes while increasing the intensity of the urban heat island, planting only the bare minimum landscaping required to shimmy past city code.

This city has been indiscriminately felling trees for generations. It is literally ingrained into the psyches and culture of the city. Shame on Blair Humphreys and his family for this utter lack of imagination. And pity the dwindling wildlife in our city that are seeing their habitats rapidly and systematically destroyed. I would love to watch him pontificate about this at some ULI convention.

Yes I suspect the current planted trees will grow faster but hopefully still be resilient to higher winds and storms like native trees. I don’t think this patch of trees was watered or maintained so I’d guess they were at least 30 years. Any trees that are planted and watered should reach this growth quicker.

Sorry to break it to you, but it will take well over a decade to establish anything remotely resembling that grove of trees. And native trees that have survived our harsh weather are genetically superior to something from a nursery.

Again, the worst aspect of this is the loss of urban wildlife habitat.

Sorry to break it to you, but it will take well over a decade to establish anything remotely resembling that grove of trees. And native trees that have survived our harsh weather are genetically superior to something from a nursery.

Again, the worst aspect of this is the loss of urban wildlife habitat.
You aren’t breaking anything to me I already said that lol. I agree with you this is horrible. It’s beyond frustrating.

Plus, even if they are going to plant new trees 20 years from now...that's 20 years worth of CO2 that isn't being taken out of the atmosphere. And mature trees suck down more CO2 than young ones, so even if they planted new trees today it would still have an overall negative impact on air quality. Plus, there's no guarantee that the plans for this parcel will even come to fruition as planned. The Stage Center lot is still vacant, after all.

This is in no way a good thing.

The piles of trash are bulldozed campsites. The bulldozed trees are open season for erosion.

Southsider and I must have had the same idea. Here is a closer look at all the trash from the camp in the inlet. Awful. 17433

Southsider and I must have had the same idea. Here is a closer look at all the trash from the camp in the inlet. Awful. 17433
That’s depressing.

So disgusting

A couple things I have learned through 40 years doing business in the urban area of OKC.

I’m guessing the trees are cottonwood. I have been told they are a species the government wants to stop expanding in town, because they clog air conditioning units during the spring.

The area being cleared looks to me that it has a gray area regarding property lines. It is not clearly and easily defined if it is private or city property. Laws regarding who can call the police and remove squatters are pretty clear, but frustrating for the average person who sees a problem and thinks the area just needs to be cleared with one phone call. Private property requires the owner (or their agent) to call for removal, and they have to have told the trespasser they are not welcome prior to the police call. Homeless people claim they are on property in the area that is not privately owned, and lacking a fence of clear marking, the police can’t remove the trespassers.

The homeless know and are smart about exploiting these gray areas. They love trees, because it is easy to set up a campsite that’s hidden. I had a guy who set up less that 10 feet in the trees south of my property that we did not notice for a year. He used green nylon tarps to wall off his area and eventually had 400sf set up with furniture and bedding.

Those weren't cottonwoods.

Wheeler will end up planting hundreds of trees on this parcel, just as they already have done on the other side of Western.

Could they plant some of those trees now? It is hard to hide behind a sapling.

Shoot first, aim later. There may be some underground utility work or another legitimate reason that required the tree removal.

Shoot first, aim later. There may be some underground utility work or another legitimate reason that required the tree removal.

So, what is your aim first solution?

As I used to always tell my employees.... when you come to me with a complaint/criticism, bring a solution that is thought out, practical, and workable. So, let's hear yours.

http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/wheeler043022c.jpg

Is the parking lot in the lower left corner permanent or temporary?

Based on the master plan from the website, seems like no, there will be commercial buildings in that spot.

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Could they plant some of those trees now? It is hard to hide behind a sapling.

+1. Sorry if I am skeptical. Farcically, when MAPS 1 was pushed, the term "reforestation" was actually used in literature to describe plans for the riverfront. LMAO.

I'm convinced that this city has a knee-jerk hatred of trees that is subconscious. It is disgusting and sad. Places like LA literally get no rainfall and they have more greenery than OKC. It is ridiculous.

The only reason people ever thought Tulsa was kinda awesome was because Tulsa developers don't reflexively destroy mature trees there as a hobby. Just look at the difference between our two major park developments. It is a stark contrast. Getting this city to embrace trees has been a cause for my entire adult life, but just like our crazy state politics, it is a battle that I'm clearly losing.

+1. Sorry if I am skeptical. Farcically, when MAPS 1 was pushed, the term "reforestation" was actually used in literature to describe plans for the riverfront. LMAO.

I'm convinced that this city has a knee-jerk hatred of trees that is subconscious. It is disgusting and sad. Places like LA literally get no rainfall and they have more greenery than OKC. It is ridiculous.

The only reason people ever thought Tulsa was kinda awesome was because Tulsa developers don't reflexively destroy mature trees there as a hobby. Just look at the difference between our two major park developments. It is a stark contrast. Getting this city to embrace trees has been a cause for my entire adult life, but just like our crazy state politics, it is a battle that I'm clearly losing.

This development has probably planted more trees than the total of every other OKC home builder in 2021. The final tree budget for this development will probably be several million dollars. Your complaints about not enough trees in OKC are valid but going after this location says a lot about your motivation. Please highlight the tree clearing happening nearly every week in NW OKC & N Edmond.

This development has probably planted more trees than the total of every other OKC home builder in 2021. The final tree budget for this development will probably be several million dollars. Your complaints about not enough trees in OKC are valid but going after this location says a lot about your motivation. Please highlight the tree clearing happening nearly every week in NW OKC & N Edmond.

THIS THIS THIS. (Edmond does have a new tree protection ordinance in place, so it's really just N OKC and the County we have to complain about now.)

This development has probably planted more trees than the total of every other OKC home builder in 2021. The final tree budget for this development will probably be several million dollars. Your complaints about not enough trees in OKC are valid but going after this location says a lot about your motivation. Please highlight the tree clearing happening nearly every week in NW OKC & N Edmond.

Spot on. This has always seemed like such an asinine way to develop a neighborhood. Everyone always complains about the lack of trees in the OKC are. So what do builders do? Find some of the best forested spots on the east side of the metro and clear cut them to build neighborhoods that looks just like the treeless ones on the west side of the metro. I get that it’s probably cheaper to develop a neighborhood that way but it’s such stupid long term thinking. If you want to build on a lot with out trees, why not just buy cheaper land out west where there weren't trees in the first place? Lots of crap builders in the metro.

This development has probably planted more trees than the total of every other OKC home builder in 2021. The final tree budget for this development will probably be several million dollars. Your complaints about not enough trees in OKC are valid but going after this location says a lot about your motivation. Please highlight the tree clearing happening nearly every week in NW OKC & N Edmond.

All one needs to do is walk the neighborhood to see how many trees have been planted. Once they are mature, the tree canopy is going to be impressive.

Some of the homeless are back.

The amount of trash these camps generate is massive.

HTTP://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/homeless051522a.jpg

So, basically, felling an old growth grove of trees did nothing except destroy more wildlife habitat?

Regarding "camps," why not set up designated camping areas for homeless? Provide sanitation facilities trash bins and other things to keep people safe and to provide an alternative to camping on people's private property. I think this has been tried in other cities but I'm no expert.

Some of the homeless are back.

The amount of trash these camps generate is massive.



So, basically, felling an old growth grove of trees did nothing except destroy more wildlife habitat?

Regarding "camps," why not set up designated camping areas for homeless? Provide sanitation facilities trash bins and other things to keep people safe and to provide an alternative to camping on people's private property. I think this has been tried in other cities but I'm no expert.

Sounds like a good idea Soonerguru to have several designated camps throughout the city with facilities much like at State Parks. The 'Homeless Shelters' could also provide services (process SNAP benefits) register camp enrollees. We're living in a new era where 'homelessness' should be addressed and not ignored.

Require the homeless to clean up after themselves; provide trash barrels etc. Have restroom & shower facilities with soap, hot and cold running water--assign to the Parks Department for routine sanitation and clean up in conjunction with the city's Water Department.

These agencies and departments could work together to monitor these camps including Safety--Police & Fire, State, City & County Health Departments. There's money in President Biden's recently passed bills that hasn't been used. We need someone to coordinate this...

Would help keep our city clean if we had all departments and agencies working together.

Pete, you mentioned that you felt uneasy walking through these areas. I dropped a homeless person off to that very area some years ago. Paid him to mow my lawn and drove him to this area--definitely remember this area because I use to fish nearby. Homeless will leave trash because there's nowhere to put it.

So, basically, felling an old growth grove of trees did nothing except destroy more wildlife habitat?

The trees are gone, probably time to let this go and move on with life. This happens almost every day of the week around OKC to make room for housing tracts and all types of development; I don't understand the fixation.


This is a small fraction of the people that were there dumping huge amounts of trash into the river.

The camps will now be much easier to detect and deal with. Plus, you don't have scores of people coming out of the woods when you are using the river path.

Right at Sheridan near Valero gas station--there's a new underpass (next to McDonald's) where the homeless have attempted to set up camp. I've seen Oklahoma City Police stop and make them move tents and sleeping bags and force them to clean up and move on.

Thank you, Oklahoma City Police. Let's continue to fund our police and give them the necessary resources (new vehicles, equipment etc) they need--same goes for the Fire Department.

Sounds like a good idea Soonerguru to have several designated camps throughout the city with facilities much like at State Parks. The 'Homeless Shelters' could also provide services (process SNAP benefits) register camp enrollees. We're living in a new era where 'homelessness' should be addressed and not ignored.

Require the homeless to clean up after themselves; provide trash barrels etc. Have restroom & shower facilities with soap, hot and cold running water--assign to the Parks Department for routine sanitation and clean up in conjunction with the city's Water Department.

These agencies and departments could work together to monitor these camps including Safety--Police & Fire, State, City & County Health Departments. There's money in President Biden's recently passed bills that hasn't been used. We need someone to coordinate this...

Would help keep our city clean if we had all departments and agencies working together.

Pete, you mentioned that you felt uneasy walking through these areas. I dropped a homeless person off to that very area some years ago. Paid him to mow my lawn and drove him to this area--definitely remember this area because I use to fish nearby. Homeless will leave trash because there's nowhere to put it.

I think this would actually be popular with voters. Remember, during polling of MAPS 4 options, remedies to homelessness were the number one issue with OKC residents regardless of political ideology or party identification. There are two camps (not a pun): folks who view this as a public nuisance (people taking. dump in their yard, leaving trash everywhere, pandhandling, etc.); and folks who are driven by their conscience to seek solutions to help homeless people. And, perhaps people in both categories.

The sense is that it is out of control. The data may not indicate that but that's what people feel, because they see so many homeless people all around OKC, not just concentrated downtown. And, I do believe people want to help, or they are willing to try different things to address the problem.

Unlike Austin, which allowed people to pitch tents wherever, I think a handful of designated camping areas could be a good solution, but obviously there is the potential for these to not go well if the planning and execution fail.

The problem with any type of organized camp is the same with the various shelters:

1) The homeless don't want to live in designated areas; they want to create their own camps.
2) Many don't want to obey rules and there is significant stealing, violence, being high, cooking drugs, etc.
3) As soon as any type of order is imposed, most will move elsewhere.

And who takes responsibility for these camps? Huge property / insurance issues.

Who polices them -- you can't just allow people to commit violence, steal and buy/sell/manufacture drugs.


The bottom line is that the huge majority of homeless don't want to follow any rules and for any sort of living situation -- indoor or outdoor -- that creates massive problems.

I'm sad to say, there are no good solutions otherwise cities around the world would be employing them. Almost all have tried. In less tolerant countries they merely forcibly round them up and lock them up periodically.

All you can really do is have mobile outreach programs to advise about the litany of services. But as has been pointed out elsewhere, you can't force anyone to do anything (other than chase them out of a place and just have them go somewhere else).


I ran a nonprofit in LA that had a homeless outreach program and was part of a city-wide alliance. All that really can be done is advise them of the various services, offer to get them a ride, and hope they use them. The huge majority never will, at least in any way that makes a lasting difference.

I hate to sound defeatist but it's largely a problem without good answers.

Much of your observation Pete has merit. Homeless people don't want to follow rules especially rules in which they feel they aren't apart of the process. So, they can either be apart of the process or live where there are no rules which subjects them to violence without protection.

Maybe we need a separate thread for 'Homelessness.'

The main issue is addiction which is often compounded with mental illness.

If anyone has ever had a close friend or family member with serious addiction problems, even those in good living situations with loving families and lots of insurance / resources often face a bleak future. I have two people I was very close to with strong addiction issues and both of them had tons of people actively trying to help them and both were homeless for a period and both died at young ages, even having been through rehab multiple times.

I give to the charities that help people with addiction so at least the ones open to help have some options.


There but for the grace of God go I.

the main issue is addiction which is often compounded with mental illness.

If anyone has ever had a close friend or family member with serious addiction problems, even those in good living situations with loving families and lots of insurance / resources often face a bleak future. I have two people i was very close to with strong addiction issues and both of them had tons of people actively trying to help them and both were homeless for a period and both died at young ages, even having been through rehab multiple times.

I give to the charities that help people with addiction so at least the ones open to help have some options.


There but for the grace of god go i.
Amen!

The problem with any type of organized camp is the same with the various shelters:

1) The homeless don't want to live in designated areas; they want to create their own camps.
2) Many don't want to obey rules and there is significant stealing, violence, being high, cooking drugs, etc.
3) As soon as any type of order is imposed, most will move elsewhere.

And who takes responsibility for these camps? Huge property / insurance issues.

Who polices them -- you can't just allow people to commit violence, steal and buy/sell/manufacture drugs.


The bottom line is that the huge majority of homeless don't want to follow any rules and for any sort of living situation -- indoor or outdoor -- that creates massive problems.

I'm sad to say, there are no good solutions otherwise cities around the world would be employing them. Almost all have tried. In less tolerant countries they merely forcibly round them up and lock them up periodically.

All you can really do is have mobile outreach programs to advise about the litany of services. But as has been pointed out elsewhere, you can't force anyone to do anything (other than chase them out of a place and just have them go somewhere else).


I ran a nonprofit in LA that had a homeless outreach program and was part of a city-wide alliance. All that really can be done is advise them of the various services, offer to get them a ride, and hope they use them. The huge majority never will, at least in any way that makes a lasting difference.

I hate to sound defeatist but it's largely a problem without good answers.

!00% correct! I've worked with ministries to the homeless and what Pete says is absolutely correct. The lack of wanting to abide by any type of guidelines causes more complications in dealing with the homeless. Many homeless are fiercely independent for the reason Pete mentioned.

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That is a pretty serious brick frame on this building.