I'm going to guess you're an extremely jealous ignoramus. Blair is a super nice and humble guy.

I have no idea why this was directed at me. I was sticking up for Blair. The guy graduated from MIT. His dad's "connections" had nothing to do with that. Blair has earned everything he has received as an adult. In fact, you could name multiple ways (this thread including) where being a Humphreys, and Kirk's son specifically, has actually hurt rather than helped.

Will a TIF be involved? I have limited understanding of developer subsidies but things I wonder about at both WD and CL, how much will tax subsidy play a role in profitability? Assuming they get a return on property tax of some sort, would that be based on the property value of the built property rather than just the lot? In other words, they sell a lot for $150K and the new owner builds a $300K town home with their builder and financing, is the value of property taxes returned to the developer for the next umpteen based on the $150 lot or the $450K townhome? My guess is the later, or perhaps I misunderstand the whole process altogether.

Good question and I don't know the answer to that. Maybe a good question for one of Steve's chats?

I'm going to guess you're an extremely jealous ignoramus. Blair is a super nice and humble guy.


I think this was meant tongue in cheek...

I don't think it's eligible for TIF because of the location.

I'm going to guess you're an extremely jealous ignoramus. Blair is a super nice and humble guy.

Sarcasm is hard when you are always super serial.

Sarcasm is hard when you are always super serial.

http://i.imgur.com/97YtEXL.jpg

I don't think it's eligible for TIF because of the location.

It's not in a current district but they could ask for one couldn't they? Is there anything about the location that doesn't fit with "underserved and/or blighted" or other requirements for a TIF?

City of Oklahoma City | Economic Development (http://www.okc.gov/economicdev/tif.html)

(I hate to mix the thread up too much with other Humphrey developments but...Carlton Landing was incorporated as a city recently. It looks like they are paving the way for TIFs in that structure. I guess that means in the future there will be taxes collected at the city level. Currently there are the equivalent of association fees. Cite: http://carltonlanding.com/wp-content/files/public/Trustees%20Meeting%2010.18.2014/2014-09-06%20Minutes-CL%20Town%20Trustees.pdf
Yes, I know. That's a completely different affair than Wheeler District, since it's already in a city limits.)

I don't think it's eligible for TIF because of the location.

TIF's can be created anywhere.

Blair has stated they have financing in place, plan to break ground in 2015 with people living in the area in 2016. From my understanding, they are going to be redeveloping the space and breaking them off into lots then having someone else do the construction under supervision for style of construction. That is where they will make money, off the sale of the lots, like other developers. We are not looking at a bunch of Edmond style zero lot line homes. A lot of them will probably be townhomes. Think of The Hill or Block 42 with retail on the ground level.

At the same time, Blair wants Wheeler to be affordable and diverse, with many price points. He has also said that he does not intend to compete with downtown development but to offer something different. I am interested to see how this plays out and which developers come to the table to create a unique set of housing options.

I have no idea why this was directed at me. I was sticking up for Blair. The guy graduated from MIT. His dad's "connections" had nothing to do with that. Blair has earned everything he has received as an adult. In fact, you could name multiple ways (this thread including) where being a Humphreys, and Kirk's son specifically, has actually hurt rather than helped.

I didn't realize anyone legitinately didn't like Blair?

(I wouldn't normally use the word ignoramus lol)

On the TIF issue, it can be anywhere and there has been talk of one for the Wheeler District but nothing is formally in process.

Steve had mentioned in one of his chats he assumed Blair would seek TIF funds for at least the reworking of Western Avenue, as current plans show it begin rebuilt much differently than it is now.

As it is, everything east of Western is part of TIF #2 (the general downtown TIF) and thus could apply for TIF fund through that. Or, they could create one specifically for the Wheeler District.


I will be posting much more about TIF's later. I'm very uncomfortable with the way they have been represented and reported and how people have come to see them as some type of free money and cure-all.

In some cases, they may be appropriate but people need to first fully understand the full pro and cons before we just rack up a bunch more of them.

Some people don't seem to understand that large, multi-use developments can take a long time to put together. Not everything gets done and open in six months like the short attention span society would like.

Blair told me last week that they hope to break ground on Phase One sometime next year, which will include a mix of single-family detached, single-family attached, and mixed-use multifamily. This would be on the west side of Western.

So, they really do want to move this forward and seeing some meaningful construction there would go a long way toward getting people excited and on-board.

Blair told me last week that they hope to break ground on Phase One sometime next year, which will include a mix of single-family detached, single-family attached, and mixed-use multifamily. This would be on the west side of Western.

So, they really do want to move this forward and seeing some meaningful construction there would go a long way toward getting people excited and on-board.Next year as in 2016?

Also, are there current plans of how Western is going to be reworked here?

Next year as in 2015, as the discussion took place in 2014. :)

Awesome! Extremely excited for this development!

Blair told me last week that they hope to break ground on Phase One sometime next year, which will include a mix of single-family detached, single-family attached, and mixed-use multifamily. This would be on the west side of Western.

So, they really do want to move this forward and seeing some meaningful construction there would go a long way toward getting people excited and on-board.

Where the concert "venue" is/was? Does this nix the use of that space as a concert venue?

Next year as in 2016?

Also, are there current plans of how Western is going to be reworked here?

I can't find the quote, but I'm pretty sure Pete stated earlier that there would be a median down Western to improve pedestrian travel.

Where the concert "venue" is/was? Does this nix the use of that space as a concert venue?

Yes. The last concert was Foster the People and Fitz and the Tantrums.

Guys, look at the renderings in the article at the top of the page if you want an idea of what is planned for Western Ave.

Steve Lackmeyer: Significant Wheeler District updates coming soon | News OK (http://newsok.com/steve-lackmeyer-significant-wheeler-district-updates-coming-soon/article/5383202)

What price point do you think they are aiming for with the houses, townhouses..?

Hopefully less than what is available downtown or in Mesta Park/Heritage Hills...?

Hopefully less than what is available downtown or in Mesta Park/Heritage Hills...?

MP/HH has stuff in the $125+/sqft range. We'll see, but I get the idea that it will be hard to go much lower than $150/sqft in this neighborhood…There will be too much height on the buildings. That being said, if they can get it to start at the $150-$160 range, this will be one of the best places to buy, because it will end up being chock-full of amenities that you can walk to, and it will be relatively close to downtown with some pretty good transit options to and fro.

But if it takes off it will hit downtown prices in no time because of market principles.

MP/HH has stuff in the $125+/sqft range. We'll see, but I get the idea that it will be hard to go much lower than $150/sqft in this neighborhood…There will be too much height on the buildings. That being said, if they can get it to start at the $150-$160 range, this will be one of the best places to buy, because it will end up being chock-full of amenities that you can walk to, and it will be relatively close to downtown with some pretty good transit options to and fro.

But if it takes off it will hit downtown prices in no time because of market principles.

Actually, prices in MP/HH are now going upwards of $175 per square foot... Lincoln Terrace, where we live, is seeing some go above $125.

Hopefully less than what is available downtown or in Mesta Park/Heritage Hills...?

I agree. I would really like to see something that I might be able to afford.

Actually, prices in MP/HH are now going upwards of $175 per square foot... Lincoln Terrace, where we live, is seeing some go above $125.

Sure. I'd doubt anything that is in great shape and in need of no real updating is going for less than probably $185/sq ft in HH and $160 - $175 in MP. But if a couple projects need to be done, there are plenty of houses that have sold in the area for <$150-per in the last 90 days.

I'm no real estate expert, but is affordable downtown housing a reasonable expectation? When you compare the average house in the suburbs at $100-110/sq ft, $175+ sounds well within expectation for a downtown neighborhood, especially if it's brand new and in a major development. I can see them having move in specials at the very beginning to attract tenants, but I always found it a little odd when people on OKCTalk or Steve's chats expect brand new housing in the heart of downtown to be as cheap as it is in the burbs.

I'm no real estate expert, but is affordable downtown housing a reasonable expectation? When you compare the average house in the suburbs at $100-110/sq ft, $175+ sounds well within expectation for a downtown neighborhood, especially if it's brand new and in a major development. I can see them having move in specials at the very beginning to attract tenants, but I always found it a little odd when people on OKCTalk or Steve's chats expect brand new housing in the heart of downtown to be as cheap as it is in the burbs.

Wheeler district is not really downtown, but ignoring that fact, a key part of good urbanism is neighborhoods with varying income levels and housing prices. Not to mention the fact that through the planning process they have promised that they will have a variety of price points. So yes, I think that would be a reasonable expectation.

I'm no real estate expert, but is affordable downtown housing a reasonable expectation? When you compare the average house in the suburbs at $100-110/sq ft, $175+ sounds well within expectation for a downtown neighborhood, especially if it's brand new and in a major development. I can see them having move in specials at the very beginning to attract tenants, but I always found it a little odd when people on OKCTalk or Steve's chats expect brand new housing in the heart of downtown to be as cheap as it is in the burbs.


No one is expecting suburb prices. Not sure what you mean by "heart of downtown" but price per sq ft in deep deuce is well over $220. It is definitely a premium, but there is not a large buy pool to select from - most of it is rent.

Rent in deep deuce is also around $1.50 per sq ft per month.

The developer has a strong commitment to mixing income levels as a part of healthy urbanism and planning. That said, I think most of the price separations will be achieved via differing square footage as opposed to wild swings in price per sq ft.

No one is expecting suburb prices. Not sure what you mean by "heart of downtown" but price per sq ft in deep deuce is well over $220. It is definitely a premium, but there is not a large buy pool to select from - most of it is rent.

With the higher housing should come better access to amenities, less driving, etc., so that your higher housing payment is offset by less driving. Unfortunately, the amenity split has often required a good deal of travel outside of the core, so the offset hasn't always been realized. It appears that Wheeler would be a great neighborhood where the offset is closer to being met, something all other new housing developments in OKC cannot say they'll do.

The developer has a strong commitment to mixing income levels as a part of healthy urbanism and planning. That said, I think most of the price separations will be achieved via differing square footage as opposed to wild swings in price per sq ft.

I agree with that as well. I think it will all probably be around the same price per sq ft. and people will have more options than they do today with housing sizes.

For the DD area, $200-$225/sq foot is pretty standard. I would expect somewhere under those prices later on (when it develops into a full fledged neighborhood) but $150-$175/sf to start. So, a 1,000 square foot condo/apartment for $150,000-$175,000 when you are one of the first to buy in, but $200,000-$225,000 when you are surrounded by book stores, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. I am curious if the Humphreys will possibly retain and just rent out the first units making them for sale later on when the neighborhood is better developed. That's not uncommon in the residential development community.

For the DD area, $200-$225/sq foot is pretty standard. I would expect somewhere under those prices later on (when it develops into a full fledged neighborhood) but $150-$175/sf to start. So, a 1,000 square foot condo/apartment for $150,000-$175,000 when you are one of the first to buy in, but $200,000-$225,000 when you are surrounded by book stores, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. I am curious if the Humphreys will possibly retain and just rent out the first units making them for sale later on when the neighborhood is better developed. That's not uncommon in the residential development community.

That would be an impossibly bad idea.

That would be an impossibly bad idea.

Why do you say that? There is supposed to be a mixture of rental and for sale housing as well as office and retail when it is fully established.

I imagine there will be a range of 750 sqft to 2000 sqft, with the majority resting in the 1000 to 1500 range.

If it's like that, I imagine the smallest units will start at about $165 psf and the largest units at around $130 psf. But it also very much depends on how things are finished out, if there is a large variety in consistency of construction etc. If everything is built like the Brownstones, you can forget cheap housing. If there are some 2 story stick homes, then housing will be more affordable.

Location in relationship to Western and the River will also be important in determining prices. Depending on which areas they allow to be developed first things may start out super expensive and become cheaper as time goes on or they could start out super cheap and skyrocket as time goes on. Probably it will be a mix, and it will probably feel arbitrary for a lot of people. There's nothing on Western down there, but no developer is going to sell a unit on that street for less than premium dollar.

Why do you say that? There is supposed to be a mixture of rental and for sale housing as well as office and retail when it is fully established.

Your first people in the district need to be people committed to seeing it prosper. They need to be owners who have a stake in seeing the neighborhood grow healthily and efficiently. You can add renters early in the process, but not at the very beginning (unless they're planning on opening a bunch of units simultaneously at the beginning…not sure what that number is, but probably north of 50 units).

Ideally they'd find a dentist, a restauranteur, a local clothing store owner, etc, and say "Hey…we'll subsidize you to move your home and business to Wheeler".

It would seem odd if housing in Wheeler becomes just as expensive or more than the heart of downtown. Wheeler will have many amenities in 5-10 years, but right now it's a vision to be realized. Hopefully they will reward those who catch the vision and invest early. I love my office in Midtown, but would happily move my counseling & coaching practice to Wheeler as things develop.

It would seem odd if housing in Wheeler becomes just as expensive or more than the heart of downtown. Wheeler will have many amenities in 5-10 years, but right now it's a vision to be realized. Hopefully they will reward those who catch the vision and invest early. I love my office in Midtown, but would happily move my counseling & coaching practice to Wheeler as things develop.

Wheeler will likely never be as or more expensive than downtown…but $225/sq.ft. is a now price for downtown. Once Wheeler hits the $225/sf range, downtown will mostly be in the $275/sf to $300/sf range.

Wheeler won't start out cheap because the market can easily support $125/sf. Look at what Jefferson Park homes are selling for these days…Wheeler is closer and will be a more complete neighborhood in the long run.

Wheeler District progresses with new hire | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/01/12/wheeler-district-progresses-with-new-hire/)

It will be interesting to see what happens to the neighborhoods south of this development in terms of pricing and demographics.

Or even more so to the west.

The project to the West (just north of Rotary Park) is quite a fascinating feature of the area.

I've looked at the area just to the West (15th/McKinley etc) on Street View…I'm actually kind of sad, because I can just envision what the future has in store for a good portion of those houses. I hope that at least a couple of these blocks are preserved and reinforced with life. It would be cool to see these houses repurposed or restored for living and not just mowed down for new development.

I actually drove through it on Friday. Lots of good housing stock, and all occupied; it's just very economically depressed. The real challenge is Will Rogers Courts, which is "the projects" in the truest sense.

Hey Pete, or anyone who might know but I noticed a sign on I35 right before Indian Hills on the east side of the road that said "future home of Evans Electric" I believe. Was curious if this meant they had sold their property on the eastern side of western here or they were planning to sell. Pretty obvious who the buyer would be. I do think Evans has more than one location in the city so it could be unrelated.

Hey Pete, or anyone who might know but I noticed a sign on I35 right before Indian Hills on the east side of the road that said "future home of Evans Electric" I believe. Was curious if this meant they had sold their property on the eastern side of western here or they were planning to sell. Pretty obvious who the buyer would be. I do think Evans has more than one location in the city so it could be unrelated.

They aren't moving. It's an expansion.

Evans Enterprises Inc. expands into Norman - Norman Transcript: News (http://www.normantranscript.com/news/evans-enterprises-inc-expands-into-norman/article_8bd74a76-9cd6-11e4-b7ac-ebff30a01b8d.html)



A family owned company that started repairing electric motors in the 1950s is set to expand into Norman. Evans Enterprises Inc. will add a cluster of buildings on a 13-acre lot worth an estimated $8 million, giving its employees more space to do business.

The expansion has been a long time coming for the company, which has operated out of its facility at1536 S. Western Ave. in Oklahoma City since 1954. Chief Executive Officer Syndy Evans Thrash said she is thrilled to give employees the extra elbow room they need to complete tasks in a more efficient manner.


“We're very excited about the possibilities. Our people have been cramped for so long in such a small space to repair motors — and moving motors to get to one,” Thrash said. “It's going to be time-saving for us.”

Evans Enterprises Inc. has provided plant services and products and sold, serviced and supported all types and sizes of electric motors and generators, controls and related driven equipment. Its customers come from all types of industry, including government, municipality and utility and energy entities around the world.

Evans Enterprises currently operates 10 locations in four states with 325 employees, with a sales office soon to open in Mexico City.

After several unsuccessful bids to expand in Oklahoma City, Thrash said her company looked at a lot on Indian Hills Road and Interstate 35 — straddling Moore and Norman city limits.

“We didn't realize at the time that it was in Norman,” she said. “We thought it was in the Moore district, and that was where we grew up. We knew that area really well. We're really excited about that.”

Permits will be submitted once plans are finalized in the forthcoming week, Thrash said, and construction will begin during the spring months. The first building scheduled to be built will measure about 35,000 square feet and will be utilized for sales and warehouse storage for a major motor manufacturer.

This will allow the company to stock new motors through 3,000 horsepower for the oil pipeline business in this region.

Spent last week in Atlanta and visited this development.. very cool Live, Work, play development that had residential above retail and dining and then townhomes and further back single family homes. I would love to see WHeeler be something like this.

Welcome to West Village, Atlanta, Georgia - LIVE, SHOP, PLAY! (http://www.westvillagega.com/)

Spent last week in Atlanta and visited this development.. very cool Live, Work, play development that had residential above retail and dining and then townhomes and further back single family homes. I would love to see WHeeler be something like this.

Welcome to West Village, Atlanta, Georgia - LIVE, SHOP, PLAY! (http://www.westvillagega.com/)

Maybe it's cooler in person, but I don't like how the website makes it look.

Maybe it's cooler in person, but I don't like how the website makes it look.

when I looked through the website i agree. I don't think the website showcases it well. but I really liked it in person.
Condos over retail.. then a street over was Townhomes and beyond that single family detached homes.
lots of great businesses in the retail spaces, lots of choices for food, Yogo studio, Gym, Brewery shop, spa.. very nice

The scope of that project makes it unfit to be comparable. The streets are way too short and they don't go anywhere. The whole development centers around a key area. Wheeler is going to have to compelling on a vast majority of the streets, and Western is going to have to have great developments on every corner.

Figured Wheeler was the appropriate thread for this article about the Mueller District in Austin:

With Porches And Parks, A Texas Community Aims For Urban Utopia : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2015/02/12/385474414/with-porches-and-parks-a-texas-community-aims-for-urban-utopia?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=nprpresents&utm_term=aboutnpr&utm_content=20150212)

Lots of familiar ideas in there...

I'm going to have to read up more on that development, but that model makes it look like it's still a Euclidean-type layout and the housing seems subdivision-like. If that's the case, simply making the lots smaller and slapping porches on the houses - while an improvement - misses the point.

Not even close to an "Urban Utopia".

Hopefully most of the ideas are not at all familiar with what Humphrey's is going to do here.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp:

10187

What Mueller is proposing is what OKC already has created in Mesta Park/Heritage Hills + Midtown.

What Wheeler is (or what I've been led to believe they're) proposing is more in line with the picture above. 5 stories is probably a bit high, but you get the idea.

The most ridiculous thing is that their "Town Center" looks like an afterthought on a subdivision. It's located on the edge of town...

Sure the lots are smaller (Which is very normal for any neighborhood built pre-1940) but there's no economic activity happening on a vast majority of the streets, and those that live the furthest away from town center have zero amenities nearby.

In Wheeler, my hope is that Western Ave provides store fronts on the entire length of the street and that store fronts at least pepper throughout the rest of the district, with ideally 2 cross streets that are at least 50% business storefront.

It's just truly sad that people are conflating the Mueller development with Urbanism. The Mueller development is what SHOULD have been at 50th and Portland, not anywhere within 2 miles of downtown.

I'm thinking of something like Dupont Circle in DC. The main roads would have businesses, shops, and restaurants on the ground floor, with housing above. The side streets could be townhouses and apartments.

I'm thinking of something like Dupont Circle in DC. The main roads would have businesses, shops, and restaurants on the ground floor, with housing above. The side streets could be townhouses and apartments.

Why can't we have businesses on the side-streets?

Doctors offices, wood shops, jewelry vendors, convenience stores, music studios, accountant offices.

We need to build neighborhoods…real ones where people live, work, and play…where people don't need to leave the area to access routine needs.

Every intersection ought to have business at street level, on at least 50% of the corners. The further away from Western, the more I can understand mid-block development not having a store front, but it neither should it be a foreign concept.

Why can't we have businesses on the side-streets?

Doctors offices, wood shops, jewelry vendors, convenience stores, music studios, accountant offices.

We need to build neighborhoods…real ones where people live, work, and play…where people don't need to leave the area to access routine needs.

Every intersection ought to have business at street level, on at least 50% of the corners. The further away from Western, the more I can understand mid-block development not having a store front, but it neither should it be a foreign concept.

Not saying we can't have businesses on the side streets. I'm saying we should absolutely have them on the main streets. The side streets, not as necessary.

From what I understand, Wheeler will have a range of housing with mix-used mid-rise development and single family housing on small lots anchored by nodes of commercial uses. New urbanism values life on a human scale which includes traditional neighborhood development. OKC has some traditional neighborhoods but few with desired levels of affordably, walkability, and connections to a mix of uses.

Why can't we have businesses on the side-streets?

Doctors offices, wood shops, jewelry vendors, convenience stores, music studios, accountant offices.

We need to build neighborhoods…real ones where people live, work, and play…where people don't need to leave the area to access routine needs.

Every intersection ought to have business at street level, on at least 50% of the corners. The further away from Western, the more I can understand mid-block development not having a store front, but it neither should it be a foreign concept.

That's what neighborhoods used to be like, which is why we (luckily) have areas like Capitol Hill, the Plaza, Midtown Plaza, the Paseo and even Western and NH Plaza. And one of the reasons they show so much promise, I believe, is because people have realized they like to walk to neighborhood bars, restaurants and shopping. The suburbs that grew out of the car culture are so sterile and isolating.

Yesterday I walked to the bank, the post office, my little grocery store and last night we walked to the movies. It was a beautiful day and night. Walking is good for the soul and the waistline.

I believe the plans for the Wheeler District will resonate with a lot of people. I've already told my son to watch it carefully to see if it's a place he might want to live. Although he lives in Midtown and loves it, there's not much that will be affordable at a size he will want in the near future.

Piece of the skyline: OKC Council approves plans for Ferris wheel
By: Brian Brus The Journal Record March 3, 20150

OKLAHOMA CITY – The City Council unanimously approved a permit Tuesday for developer Blair Humphreys’ recreational plaza and Ferris wheel on the south side of the Oklahoma River.

Humphreys said at the preceding Riverfront Redevelopment Authority meeting that the Ferris wheel, which is being restored in Wichita, Kansas, will be installed and ready for riders this summer.

That was good news for council members, who said they anticipate the plaza will be a magnet for the community beyond plans for what Humphreys is calling the Wheeler District. The ride will serve as the focal point of the 150-acre, mixed-use development centered between the former Downtown Airpark and the river, just west of the planned MAPS 3 central park.

“I’ve had people asking me about this Ferris wheel,” Councilwoman Meg Salyer said. “To have it up and lit – even if it’s just lit – it becomes this incredible beacon on the south side of the river and it begins to change everybody’s minds about what’s likely to happen.”

Humphreys said he intends to meld the plaza into the riverfront pedestrian trails, although initially most visitor traffic will likely be by automobile. Food concessions and alcohol sales are being considered as well, he said.

“Layers of activity will be applied over time,” he told the Riverfront Redevelopment Authority. “Each month that goes by, each year that goes by, we will add activity that is complementary and continues to build up the place.

“We have to start somewhere,” he said. “We obviously have an ambitious vision that’s laid out, but we’re really trying to take the first step and get things moving, and then have plans to break ground on the rest of the related development further south.”

Humphreys works for The Humphreys Fund with his father and brother, who are involved in other developments in the city.

“We continue to move forward with our vision for Wheeler, and the Ferris wheel will make its first turn this summer,” he said. “We are excited to provide a new vantage point – from the south bank of the Oklahoma River – to view the ever-evolving Oklahoma City skyline.”