Let me say - THIS is what Core to Shore should have been - not all that darn park and open space and' towers in the park' junk they envisioned. No wonder C2S has been around 10 years and gone no where. If they had done this 10 year ago at C2S it would be built out now.

This looks very exciting, but considering I'll be 80 years old by the time it looks like it does in the picture, going by their timeline, I am not holding my breath. I wish somebody with deep pockets could begin construction and get at least the core of the neighborhood including the ferris wheel up quickly. This needs to be done NOW, before the next financial crisis.

I have kids your age and I won't be close to 80 when this is done, barring unforeseen economic events like we saw in 2008.
I might consider moving there. The streetcar will be running by 2017, which would ensure connectivity to places I now walk.

I just traded texts with Will because he's been there for almost all the planning, and he said a soccer stadium was never even mentioned.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't be added in at some point.

I was thinking you meant was it mentioned in yesterday's open house. It was very much a discussion and desired to be a part of the district or in the general area. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Let me say - THIS is what Core to Shore should have been - not all that darn park and open space and' towers in the park' junk they envisioned. No wonder C2S has been around 10 years and gone no where. If they had done this 10 year ago at C2S it would be built out now.

Completely agree. The conceptual plan for C2S is too ambitious for a city the size of OKC in my opinion, but something like this could have worked. I am sure you are familiar with Mud Island/Harbortown in Memphis.

I have kids your age and I won't be close to 80 when this is done, barring unforeseen economic events like we saw in 2008.
I might consider moving there. The streetcar will be running by 2017, which would ensure connectivity to places I now walk.

I misread the timeline and thought it was going to take 50 years. My bad.

Let me say - THIS is what Core to Shore should have been - not all that darn park and open space and' towers in the park' junk they envisioned. No wonder C2S has been around 10 years and gone no where. If they had done this 10 year ago at C2S it would be built out now.

They actually did have a plan similar to this for Core to Shore. I've seen it and remember it very well, because they had fabulous blocks of townhouses with a central green space ala Notting Hill immediately to the west of the park. There were all types of developments, and a school envisioned along the river. Remember what downtown was like when Core to Shore was envisioned? We didn't even have Deep Deuce. It's no surprise that developers were hesitant to get involved, with the park still looking very pie in the sky. This is a completely different time, with a central developer with a well-connected family running the show. Kind of sad the Humphries didn't buy a big piece of land on either side of the park, but maybe they will create a model for the city of how it can be done.

Let me say - THIS is what Core to Shore should have been - not all that darn park and open space and' towers in the park' junk they envisioned. No wonder C2S has been around 10 years and gone no where. If they had done this 10 year ago at C2S it would be built out now.

That's the difference between city officials who have a general idea that something needs to be done, and very talented and knowledgable people who have a specific vision.

It's probably a good thing that C2S is taking so long to get off the ground. I think by the time anything gets moving there, this development will have changed people's perceptions of what we want in our neighborhoods. If this is as successful as I think it will be, I think our "Little Europe" will spread beyond the borders we see here.

Wait, wait.. okay, I'm probably uninformed, but is it called the "Wheeler District" because of the Ferris Wheel?

...It's probably a good thing that C2S is taking so long to get off the ground. I think by the time anything gets moving there, this development will have changed people's perceptions of what we want in our neighborhoods...
This is a great point. C2S was a great excercise and created a good high-level plan, basically a "hey we want to do something here eventually and it might look a little bit like this..." plan.

A notable difference is that this exercise (Wheeler) was almost unbelievably inclusive. The developers and planners all but begged the community to tell them what THE COMMUNITY wants. And ten years later, after some strong grassroots place-making success under its belt, the community is much better equipped and educated to express what they hope for.

C2S, OTOH, was unintentionally (and perhaps in some cases intentionally) EXclusive. The meetings were well-attended, but mostly by "stakeholders." It also was insular, mostly only paying attention to the area itself with little attention paid to connections to other neighborhoods. It is notable that not a single official representative attended from the immediately-adjacent Bricktown district, nor was one invited.

The Wheeler planners reached out to all of the surrounding neighborhoods and explored how they could benefit each other most fully. While C2S ignored proximity and connection to the (up to that point) most successful downtown urban district, Wheeler's planners propose (currently non-existent) direct connections to the VERY modest (some would call it poor) Rotary Park neighborhood to the west, and inclusion of a 15th street connection that runs to the heart of one of the toughest housing projects in the metro.

These are a few of the many critical differences that differentiate both approaches. Hopefully Wheeler will become the new standard.

Wait, wait.. okay, I'm probably uninformed, but is it called the "Wheeler District" because of the Ferris Wheel?

You're probably joking, but Nope.

Wait, wait.. okay, I'm probably uninformed, but is it called the "Wheeler District" because of the Ferris Wheel?

It's named for its proximity to the historic Wheeler Park across the river.

Ah, it all makes sense now. Thanks!

I like the idea of making this our own little French Quarter like other cities have. Or something similar to The Plaza in KC but larger.

Everything is draft... except for the Ferris Wheel. Pretty sure that's going to stick.

Right, no question about that, and they seemed to be pretty sure of the ferris wheel's location owing to sight lines and visual appeal. Also indicated it will be among the first things to appear on the site.

Thinking about access to downtown and the desirability of leaving one's car in the garage as much as possible, I checked the mileage. It is 1.6 miles from the entrance of the Airpark to the most western part of the streetcar route. One could ride one's bike along the river and access Bricktown thusly, but its a bit far to walk. The Devon boats probably won't ever run often enough to be practical. One could access Capitol Hill via Western, so it's interesting to think about mass transit options.

1.6 is generally very doable, we walk from the regency to the boathouse district often and that is right at 2 miles, the issue is more the walkability of that route currently. last winter I broke down on the eastbound offramp of western/I-40 and I walked home. In 28 degrees. It was doable. But man, what a pain. I'd walk to the boathouse any day over the airpark until it's fixed. In fact I have tickets to the concert at the airpark on 8/22 and I REALLY don't want to drive/park, but ugh that walk...

By the way, they DO have deep pockets.

Not SO deep that haven't already hit up the city to pay for the changes on Western.

There is a bus route on S. Western. One could ride the bus to within walking distance of the streetcar line, I'm sure. One could also imagine a bus rapid transit route from the Airport > Hospitality District > Dell > Stockyards > Wheeler District > Downtown and back.

There is a bus route on S. Western. One could ride the bus to within walking distance of the streetcar line, I'm sure. One could also imagine a bus rapid transit route from the Airport > Hospitality District > Dell > Stockyards > Wheeler District > Downtown and back.

I would love this. Especially if the FAA would then do a shuttle from the airport to MMAC, or if you'd add one more stop to the BRT at MMAC (or maybe two to include Metro Tech Aviation).

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Yes. So yes.

We need about a dozen neighborhoods like this. Connect all of them via mass transit and this city would be so awesome.

I have been in Europe for the last month and have been dreaming of something like this in OKC. This will be an awesome development if (when) it comes to fruition.

This is so cool I'm honestly still coming to terms this is a serious proposal. Even Dallas doesn't have anything on this scale.

That would be the jam. I work at the MMAC and I wish I could take public transportation to work.

A bus with a metro tech aviation stop would only need stops 3 times a day.

One at 645am for the 7am class, then one at 245pm to pick up the morning class that lets out at 230 and top drop off the afternoon class that starts at 300pm. Then one at 1030pm that picks up the afternoon class again.

Even then, with shrinking class sizes and the fact that everyone there has a car, not sure how much it would be used. I wouldn't.

Not SO deep that haven't already hit up the city to pay for the changes on Western.

I will trust you that this is accurate, but if so it is completely appropriate and not unexpected. A development of this type only works with a reconfiguration of Western, and the net impact to the tax base (especially ad valorem) will be nothing short of astounding. But sales tax - which directly benefits the City - will get a positive boost, not only with new retail that draws from outside, but also by capturing sales tax dollars from new residents who might otherwise live in an area where their taxes would leak into another municipality.

Even with the City reworking the street the required infrastructure impact on the community will be a fraction of what a new housing development at the fringe would add to the City's burden. How is this a problem again? It is a routine request.

I hate how when it comes to an urban development seeking city assistance, people get all up in arms. Yet no sound from them for the billions we have spent and will continue to spend to encourage and subsidize suburban development.

I hate how when it comes to an urban development seeking city assistance, people get all up in arms. Yet no sound from them for the billions we have spent and will continue to spend to encourage and subsidize suburban development.
Maybe because the majority live in the suburbs? I do agree with you though, it is unfair. I'd support the city assisting this development in reconstructing the surrounding roads.

Full Length Video of the Wheeler District Charrette Presentation | News OK (http://newsok.com/full-length-video-of-the-wheeler-district-charrette-presentation/article/5005475)

http://www.news9.com/story/26049013/wheeler-district-development-plans-start-to-take-shape

Full Length Video of the Wheeler District Charrette Presentation | News OK (http://newsok.com/full-length-video-of-the-wheeler-district-charrette-presentation/article/5005475)

Wheeler District Development Plans Start To Take Shape - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports | (http://www.news9.com/story/26049013/wheeler-district-development-plans-start-to-take-shape)

plupan, Will had previously posted the full length video in post number 585.

Need the Dutch bike lanes down here!!!

We need about a dozen neighborhoods like this. Connect all of them via mass transit and this city would be so awesome.

That is the idea but it becomes hard as hell to do when the City and its various design review committees keep give variances for things like the law firm right across the river from this.

That would be the jam. I work at the MMAC and I wish I could take public transportation to work.

Same here (work at MMAC). Can't wait for the day commuter rail comes this way but that may be awhile...

Quote from Steve's live chat:


10:43
Steve Lackmeyer: I suppose. But it wasn't what I was referring to when I made this statement.
10:42

Comment From Pat
Steve, Will the Wheeler district make Dallas or KC envious, if it happens as proposed ?

Just to clear up the question people had by the way if Steve reads this :)

This is so cool I'm honestly still coming to terms this is a serious proposal. Even Dallas doesn't have anything on this scale.

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.

I agree with this for the most part. I have my skepticism as well. Hopefully, if this development must be scaled back, which should be expected that it will be, then it will be scaled back in terms of size and not in terms of quality. A mixed use, new urbanist development of this type of quality is something that is missing in OKC and would be much welcome.

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.

That is not what charrettes are for.

National Charrette Institute | NCI Charrette System? - The Breakthrough Planning Tool for Commuity Transformation (http://www.charretteinstitute.org/)

Also, if anyone wants to see a similar real-world example check out The Kentlands in Gaithersburg, MD

http://www.kentlandsusa.com/outside_home.asp

The difference, I hope, is that Humprey has succeeded at Carlton Landing and brings that experience back to OKC. Not to mention the connectedness of his family.

The difference, I hope, is that Humprey has succeeded at Carlton Landing and brings that experience back to OKC. Not to mention the connectedness of his family.

This was my thought as well. It's not like we are talking about Chris Johnson and his plan for the hotel on the canal six (or more) years ago. They have done a great job on Block 42 (which according to zillow only has three units available for purchase) and the whole Carlton Landing area as well. That one will take a while to completely build out, but they have it started and so far it looks great. I think there will be a lot of people buying homes at Lake Eufaula to rent out during the year. With a school there and basic amenities, it could be a great development in years to come and that is what I am hoping for this development as well.

The Santa Monica Pier ferris wheel is already in the fold.

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.

Perhaps that is sometimes the case, but in this case I don't believe you are correct. First of all, it doesn't sound as if this is in the "far future". Second, I don't think it's that ambitious. I think they had a general plan in their heads and used suggestions to tweak it. We all know that development sometimes never happens or doesn't turn out as planned. Trust me, you don't have to caution anyone from Oklahoma City. But, I think in this case, cautious optimism is in order. We'll see. If nothing else, it gives people something interesting to think and talk about.

have you ever had to stop at a stoplight?
When I do I look in the mirror to make sure there's not a jacker in sight...

That is not what charrettes are for.

National Charrette Institute | NCI Charrette System? - The Breakthrough Planning Tool for Commuity Transformation (http://www.charretteinstitute.org/)

Also, if anyone wants to see a similar real-world example check out The Kentlands in Gaithersburg, MD

Kentlands - Home Page (http://www.kentlandsusa.com/outside_home.asp)

They're used to plan a master planned area but they're not planned within the context of having a budget or knowing costs. It's virtually a "what would you like to see?" "What's important to you?" Then a design team puts together site plans and renderings of how people imagine it will look.

That's all.

I've been to a few of these myself. They're fun and they get your imagination going but it's not real life Tycoon Rollercoaster, you know? lol

Perhaps that is sometimes the case, but in this case I don't believe you are correct. First of all, it doesn't sound as if this is in the "far future". Second, I don't think it's that ambitious. I think they had a general plan in their heads and used suggestions to tweak it. We all know that development sometimes never happens or doesn't turn out as planned. Trust me, you don't have to caution anyone from Oklahoma City. But, I think in this case, cautious optimism is in order. We'll see. If nothing else, it gives people something interesting to think and talk about.

But that's typical of most charrettes. They get peoples input into what they want to see. Market realities, cost and financing are what's really going to shape this project.

As for timeframe, I thought I read in this thread this neighborhood would develop over a 20 year period?

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.perhaps you're right. This thing just looked so awesome I almost couldn't believe it.

But that's typical of most charrettes. They get peoples input into what they want to see. Market realities, cost and financing are what's really going to shape this project.

As for timeframe, I thought I read in this thread this neighborhood would develop over a 20 year period?

It might. But reportedly they're going to start construction by 2016. I suppose a timeline might depend on demand. If there's a lot of pent-up demand for housing of this sort, it could progress rather quickly. Or the reverse. If developers start projects in C2S they will compete with this and C2S is closer to downtown, although not to the river. I just think we are sophisticated enough here to know how excited we should get about projects like this and how likely it is to occur. A lot of us have been following downtown and proximity development for quite a while.

But that's typical of most charrettes. They get peoples input into what they want to see. Market realities, cost and financing are what's really going to shape this project.

As for timeframe, I thought I read in this thread this neighborhood would develop over a 20 year period?

Most of the core of the neighborhood is supposed to be developed within five years if I am not mistaking.

A development like this would certainly work in San Antonio. Give the fact its a completely new concept here in OKC yet most other cities in its tier have similar developments, what makes you think that it isn't going to be successful?

Like I said in my previous post, I have my doubts and think its very likely that it could get scaled back before all is said and done, but I think there is a definite demand for this kind of thing here. The good thing about this is unlike a single development done by a single developer, this will be a neighborhood, likely with multiple hands in the cookie jar so to speak. Once the core gets built and it is successful, the rest will take care of itself.

If anybody thinks this is too ambitious for OKC, take a look at Harbortown in Memphis, TN. Memphis is similar in size to OKC, except they don't have the economic momentum OKC does. If anybody is concerned about how the nearby neighborhoods will effect crime in the Wheeler district, Harbortown is a stones throw away from the absolute worst part of Memphis.

You know what reduces crime? Having an active street life of non-criminals.

You know what reduces crime? Having an active street life of non-criminals.that helps, yes.

If anybody thinks this is too ambitious for OKC, take a look at Harbortown in Memphis, TN. Memphis is similar in size to OKC, except they don't have the economic momentum OKC does. If anybody is concerned about how the nearby neighborhoods will effect crime in the Wheeler district, Harbortown is a stones throw away from the absolute worst part of Memphis.OKC cam support it. I have confidence in this development. I don't know why, but I feel this will truly be extraordinary.

Most of the core of the neighborhood is supposed to be developed within five years if I am not mistaking.

A development like this would certainly work in San Antonio. Give the fact its a completely new concept here in OKC yet most other cities in its tier have similar developments, what makes you think that it isn't going to be successful?

Like I said in my previous post, I have my doubts and think its very likely that it could get scaled back before all is said and done, but I think there is a definite demand for this kind of thing here. The good thing about this is unlike a single development done by a single developer, this will be a neighborhood, likely with multiple hands in the cookie jar so to speak. Once the core gets built and it is successful, the rest will take care of itself.

I never said it wasn't going to be successful. That word was never typed on my end. I simply said a charrette is an idea summit with renderings. These ideas have no parameters or limits. With that and the fact that I've been a pat of a couple and seen many developments use charrettes and the end result is almost never like what is presented in the charrette, if built at all, because the actual development must fit within parameters.

As I said, those are market realities, costs, funding, logistics, zoning, etc.

Here's why I have hope:

A) Blair is a local guy. He wants this to happen. This isn't an out-of-state developer having public meetings and pretending to care about the community

B) Blair's family is very wealthy and connected, and wants him to be successful. This isn't an out-of-state developer putting on a show to drive investor fundraising

The Humphreys care deeply about the city, and Blair is very socially connected to the people of the city. He is carrying a ton of weight to pull this vision off, and I think he'll be successful. He has the public buy-in to his vision, and that's no easy task. Convincing others to be a part of your vision, and to allow you to be apart of theirs is not a simple thing. I think he'll pull this off.

Don't get your hopes up that this turns out to look anything like this if or when it gets built in the far future. Charrettes are always used to design overly ambitious designs and looks for large master planned developments. I've been a part of many and seen many up close and over the internet and zero have been built to how they were designed in the charrette and many haven't even begun construction.

The reason is because a charrette is basically a "what would you build here if you could without any limitations", but with a few dozen or even a hundred or more people.

The reality of cost and market then take over.

Just my two cents.

You very well might know a thing or two about charettes. You know nothing about the Humphreys family. That's MY two cents.

I never said it wasn't going to be successful. That word was never typed on my end. I simply said a charrette is an idea summit with renderings. These ideas have no parameters or limits. With that and the fact that I've been a pat of a couple and seen many developments use charrettes and the end result is almost never like what is presented in the charrette, if built at all, because the actual development must fit within parameters.

As I said, those are market realities, costs, funding, logistics, zoning, etc.
Most of the charrettes that I have been involved in did have parameters and limitations taken into account, a minority of them were "pie in the sky" design exercises. Because if you don't design something that is somewhat feasible, why have the exercise in the first place? Also a charrette is not just for land planning, many times is is for building planning and figuring out the client's business processes and procedures....but then I came into architecture from a technical and not purely theoretical design perspective.

You very well might know a thing or two about charettes. You know nothing about the Humphreys family. That's MY two cents.

Like

You very well might know a thing or two about charettes. You know nothing about the Humphreys family. That's MY two cents.

+1

You very well might know a thing or two about charettes. You know nothing about the Humphreys family. That's MY two cents.


The reality of cost and market then take over.

It doesn't matter how much money Humphreys has or how well intentioned he is, if he can't find enough buyers for his development then the end result is going to be different than the plan. That is all josh is trying to say. Free Market principles aren't going to disappear just because there was a nice charrette. Humphreys realizes this that's why he is putting a very long timeline on this development

Actually the timeline (10 years to substantial completion) is not that different from a suburban housing addition. People are missing that - while they will be building homes and commercial themselves too - they are inviting other homebuilders in to build within the framework and design guidelines of the district. This is no different that dozens of developments in places like Edmond or Norman (or wherever); it is just more carefully-planned and focused on the pedestrian environment.

There were MULTIPLE homebuilders (and commercial developers) in attendance at the charettes, and they already have strong interest from them. This wasn't just a bunch of potential residents and community do-gooders participating.

People are also missing that this involves a wide range of housing product, not just luxury homes and not just large multi-family, both of which are most likely to be affected by the market. This development includes tons of modest product. What is perhaps most staggering in fact is the variety of lifestyles it will address.

Naysay all you want. This development is moving forward, and while it may not (even certainly will not) look exactly like what came out of the charettes (they are just now taking the charette conceptuals to their respective shops for final planning documents) the finished product will be anything but watered down.