Shoot me if this has been posted.

OKLAHOMA CITY - A manager at a Bricktown bar was cited early Sunday on a complaint of allowing a person under 21 in a club after police found an underage Oklahoma City Thunder basketball player inside.

A person flagged down officers about 12:05 a.m. and said Thunder reserve guard James Harden, 20, was inside Rok Bar, 119 E California Ave., according to an Oklahoma City police report released today.

Officers found Harden inside the club and asked him for his identification, and he said it was in his vehicle, according to the report. He provided them with his date of birth.

Officers issued the misdemeanor citation to Nathanial Z. Nold, 30, the report states. Harden was not arrested or cited, records show.


Read more from this Tulsa World article at Tulsa World: Oklahoma City bar manager cited for allowing underage Thunder player inside (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=226&articleid=20100506_226_0_OKLAHO20337)

So, a guy can earn over $4,000,000.00 per year and not be able to have a beer or even be inside the Rok Club. Odd. Strange laws, indeed. The same should be said, by the way, per our soldiers.

Agreed. The drinking age should be 18. We treat them like adults if they commit a crime at 18, we treat them like adults if they have an illness, they're allowed to die for our country. I think its foolishness to have the drinking age 21. I have 4 kids, and I've seen no evidence that raising the drinking age to 21 deters teenage drinking. They just do it in cars instead of in bars.

Wow so far agreement...
I'm spooked..lol

There is aways a snitch watching just waiting on a chance to pounce on an opportunity and they sit back and watch. Funny thing about most snitches, they never snitch on themselves!

Oklahoma and the Federal Government have some strange liquor laws:

In Oklahoma:

Can't buy 6.0 beer in a store and if it is sold in a Liquor Store it (6.0 beer) can't be refrigerated!

Why? If it is cold you will be tempted to drink it. A person who has a drinking problem is going to drink the liquor or beer regardless of whether it is cold or hot.

All states:

You've got to be 21 or older to enter a club or liquor establishment; yet, we can draft you at 18 and certify you as an adult at almost any age depending on the circumstances.

Clubs in Oklahoma put everyone out on the streets at 2:00am. when most states allow the bars, taverns and clubs to stay open form closing til 4-5- 6:00 a.m., and serve juices, sodas and non-alcoholic beverages to help sober most of their patrons up and they are not all put out on the streets at the same time.

When will we wake up and quit playing M O T H E R - H E N !

Ok.. so the drinking age gets lowered to 18... why not lower it to 16, 18 is close enough to 16, hell, we let them drive at 16, why not drink. Why not be an adult when you're 16. Most kids at that age are already doing adult things, I know I was.

The 21 drinking age thing is pretty archaic.

I can see there being 21 and older "night clubs" based on what a target clientele might want, but it's ridiculous that they can recruit an 18 year old to the military, hand him a gun, expect him to fly 8,000 miles across the world and possibly die, but they'll write him up a ticket or send him to jail and shut down a business if that same person buys a coors light on a Saturday night.

mmonroe: I did adult things at six and twelve; however, doing adult things doesn't make you an adult.

Quit drafting kids at 18 if they aren't old enough to drink! They can drink on a military base at 18 with a military ID--so what's the difference if they can fight for their country at that age--why not let them drink?

Here's an interesting chart showing the Minimum Age Drinking Laws Around The World (http://www.icap.org/Table/MinimumAgeLimitsWorldwide). Probably 80% are age 18 (or younger!).

Here's an interesting chart showing the Minimum Age Drinking Laws Around The World (http://www.icap.org/Table/MinimumAgeLimitsWorldwide). Probably 80% are age 18 (or younger!).

lol

In Denmark you can buy it at 16, but not drink it until you're 18.

Odd.

lol

In Denmark you can buy it at 16, but not drink it until you're 18.

Odd.

It's to keep their drunk parents from driving to the store to buy more!!

Actually, if you read the description of the categories, the Purchase Age: Off Premise, means they can purchase and drink elsewhere (at home, home parties, etc.) just not in bars and other on-premise locations.

Quit drafting kids at 18 if they aren't old enough to drink! They can drink on a military base at 18 with a military ID--so what's the difference if they can fight for their country at that age--why not let them drink?
Most bases have changed this policy per a DoD directive recently. Not all have complied as of yet last I heard.

The issue of legality aside, what a crappy thing for someone to do, meaning the person who reported it.

The issue of legality aside, what a crappy thing for someone to do, meaning the person who reported it.
Exactly what I was thinking....what a douchebag that person is!!

I agree that the problem is with the snitch. Probably a Dallas Mavericks fan. All of the drinking law arguments i have heard or made since i was a teenager in los angeles. Speaking of L.A., hope the incident doesnt cause Hardin or Westbrook to want to go back when their contracts are up. Come to think of it, maybe it was a Lakers fan who was the snitch.

Yeah this is totally bogus! I want to know who was the snitch. These guys are helping OKC really get on the map and he is one year away from 21 come on now. I know when I moved back here I was 18 and you can't do much except go to "get shot" clubs but when you turn 21 okc is a whole new thing its a lot better. I'm just sayin he could buy that club in cash that night. I'd let him slide. I will bowel movement on the snitches car if I ever find them! P.S. Go usaf!

Doesn't every club check IDs at the door? Can't someone give this local hero a fake ID - lol?

it may not be right, but the fact remains a law was broken and the right course of action was taken. i am curious to know if there's anything that could've been done to Harden? a ticket for him because he was underage in a club? or would it have to have him drinking in order for a ticket to be issued?

Doesn't every club check IDs at the door? Can't someone give this local hero a fake ID - lol?

Either they don't do accurate checks, or a passable ID was shown at the door and the patron was sharp enough to not display it again when the id check was made.

The patron was not cited. The manager who should have known the patron was underage was cited. Had the patron been goofy enough to produce an invalid ID, or perhaps had he not been who he is, the patron might have also been cited.

Then again, perhaps he was only observed drinking plain water.
I dunno and the article is not real in depth.

While still a minor I was asked to leave a place once (or thrice) when I was somewhere I ought not to have been. No drama, just told it was time for me to be somewhere else, past time actually, and I departed without incident. Of course, I wasn't famous and no one really cared, including me, what gave me away. I was just happy there was no drama involved.

The 21 drinking age thing is pretty archaic.

I can see there being 21 and older "night clubs" based on what a target clientele might want, but it's ridiculous that they can recruit an 18 year old to the military, hand him a gun, expect him to fly 8,000 miles across the world and possibly die, but they'll write him up a ticket or send him to jail and shut down a business if that same person buys a coors light on a Saturday night.

Ditto to all you say...........AND remember that the VOTING age is now 18! A person can join the military, make a contract, get married, buy tobacco products, and/or vote at age 18, but can't buy or drink alcohol in a public! Beyond ridiculous!

I agree that the problem is with the snitch. Probably a Dallas Mavericks fan. All of the drinking law arguments i have heard or made since i was a teenager in los angeles. Speaking of L.A., hope the incident doesnt cause Hardin or Westbrook to want to go back when their contracts are up. Come to think of it, maybe it was a Lakers fan who was the snitch.

I understand you all agree in principle, but regardless a law was broken, not by the snitch.


Doesn't every club check IDs at the door? Can't someone give this local hero a fake ID - lol?

Probably could, but he's such a public figure that people know his age and it wouldn't matter.


it may not be right, but the fact remains a law was broken and the right course of action was taken. i am curious to know if there's anything that could've been done to Harden? a ticket for him because he was underage in a club? or would it have to have him drinking in order for a ticket to be issued?

Agreed. Not saying I'm defending the "snitch", who technically did nothing illegal. What does that say of Harden who knew he was underage? Two wrongs don't make a right; ie just because all the cool kids are doing it... I don't remember hearing of CP3 hitting the clubs, but I do remember him hitting up the bowling alley regularly. Sad when our society defends what is illegal over someone who did nothing illegal, as archaic as the laws might be. Personally, I've seen and heard far too many stories of 18 year olds doing stupid things, although that could be said of any age, but on average an 18 year old just doesn't have the life experience/maturity level. I'd rather see them raise the legal age to 21 for all the things mentioned. Let the flames begin.

Earth to Metro. While I agree with you in many ways, I am also a realist. A 20 year-old in a bar is very common. One of the wealthiest men in Oklahoma City at $4,000,000.00 a year (yes, four million) not being allowed in a bar is ridiculous. He's an adult in every other way. He can be a huge draw in his employment, pay ridiculous amounts in taxes, he can vote, own a home, he's an adult if a crime is committed, he can fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you want to say he can't walk in a club and have a drink? Again, Earth to Metro.

One thing it does remind us about the Thunder, a lot of these guys are just barely out of high school and college. They're young, and with that kind of money, they are vulnerable to many things. The least of which is doing what zillions of other 20 year-old guys do, and sneak in a bar.

Really, this is not even worthy of conversation and discussion. It's just because of who he is that we're batting this back and forth. Some things, Metro, just will be. Fake ID's and sliding into a bar before 21 is a lot like not wearing a seatbelt...yeah, it's the law, but sometimes it just is and always will be.

So as long as you make $4 million a year you can do whatever you want?

The law is the law, whether you agree with it or not.

My other question is would Joe Blow off the street be treated the same way?

So as long as you make $4 million a year you can do whatever you want?

The law is the law, whether you agree with it or not.

No. You missed the point. It was one in a list of several things that shows James Harden is an ADULT and sometimes laws are made to be broken. I'm not condoning it - I'm just being realistic. Considering 21 is very late in life compared to the rest of the world, it's not like I'm way out of line.

Metro, Nobody would ever know Joe Blow off the street was even there. Do you know how common this is? Really? It's just the way it is. Right, wrong or indifferent...it goes on all the time. The burden here is almost always on the owner/manager to keep them out, because it's almost a rite-of-passage to try.

They need to make a law that makes Thunder players exempt from all other laws. Under 21, James Harden? Come on in, let me buy you a drink. Thabo Sefolosha, you say you'd like to be able to drive 70 in a school zone? Totally cool with us. Attention, Kevin Durant: If you ever feel like just shooting some random guy in the face, we'll let it slide. You led the league in scoring, after all--it's the least we can do. You guys just feel free to break any laws you want to here in OKC, as long as you're still playing for the Thunder, that is.

They need to make a law that makes Thunder players exempt from all other laws. Under 21, James Harden? Come on in, let me buy you a drink. Thabo Sefolosha, you say you'd like to be able to drive 70 in a school zone? Totally cool with us. Attention, Kevin Durant: If you ever feel like shooting some random guy in the face, we'll let it slide. You led the league in scoring, after all--it's the least we can do. You guys just feel free to break any laws you want to here in OKC, as long as you're still playing for the Thunder, that is.

No, Matt...playing for the Thunder has nothing to do with it. Read my last couple of posts. His adult status in every other area - even if he was contributing tons of tax money from his $4 million dollar salary as a CEO of an energy company.....the point is these are adults in every way and the consumption of alcohol being the one area where they are not is just - bizarre. I'm usually very conservative about cultural matters, but this is just one of those things where reality needs to catch up with archaic laws.

I agree with metro 100%.

No one is above the law, we all are to abide by it no matter what our status is. James Hardin is a great player, and I am so proud to have him in Oklahoma City playing for our Thunder. He has been given the honor and responsibility of representing us, and if he can't do that, then he shouldn't be in the position.

I would rather have an upright, moral team that never wins a playoff game, than a team that is the best in the land, but is known to be involved in drugs, drinking (not probably what James was doing, I mean known for being drunk all the time and constantly behind the drink), bar fights, and drunk driving -- all around thugs and punks.

This is not a slam on James or any of our other players, I think they are doing a great job of representing our city, representing themselves as moral people, and being a great team.

Everyone makes mistakes, comes with that age bracket. If this becomes a regular occurrence with him, I will not support him -- as should all of us. If he can't represent and handle himself, then he doesn't need to represent us.

Off my soapbox, I think James is a great player and I'm glad to have him here. May this serve as a learning experience for him -- wait one more year James and I won't have a problem with this.

I sure don't want a thuggy NBA team either. In fact, that's one reason my interest in the NBA is lukewarm. Most (and yes, I mean that literally) are a bunch of uneducated, ghetto idiots and overpaid by magnitudes of hundreds of thousands. I think we've got the conversation here all confused and all over the map.

Some of you act like laws are pure and inviolate. "A law was broken and someone must be punished." Please....laws are broken every hour of every day. Stop acting sanctimonious. The enforcement of laws is inconsistent especially when dealing with minor infractions and everyone knows this.

It's ridiculous that we spend so much money on trying to keep young kids from getting alcohol when it was actually quite easy to get when I was younger.

If you're old enough to fight and die for this country, you're old enough to drink whatever you want. Period.....any law in opposition to this idea should be ignored.

Some of you act like laws are pure and inviolate. "A law was broken and someone must be punished." Please....laws are broken every hour of every day. Stop acting sanctimonious. The enforcement of laws is inconsistent especially when dealing with minor infractions and everyone knows this.

It's ridiculous that we spend so much money on trying to keep young kids from getting alcohol when it was actually quite easy to get when I was younger.

If you're old enough to fight and die for this country, you're old enough to drink whatever you want. Period.....any law in opposition to this idea should be ignored.

Yes, but when a law is broken and they are caught...you should be treated as such. I agree with your statement on fighting for the country and being able to drink at the same age. But, the law is the law.

I break the law every stinking day, I may take my car out of "park" without my seatbelt on, take both hands off of the wheel while I am backing up to simultaneously push my garage door button and put on my seatbelt, and I will normally exceed 25mph while driving in my neighborhood. If I am caught, there should be no argument -- I was breaking the law. James and any other celebrities, politicians, national or local should be held to the same standards as the rest of us. If they are going to do underage drinking, they better not get caught or seen, if they do get caught, they should be punished according to the law.

I don't remember hearing of CP3 hitting the clubs, but I do remember him hitting up the bowling alley regularly. Sad when our society defends what is illegal over someone who did nothing illegal, as archaic as the laws might be. Personally, I've seen and heard far too many stories of 18 year olds doing stupid things, although that could be said of any age, but on average an 18 year old just doesn't have the life experience/maturity level. I'd rather see them raise the legal age to 21 for all the things mentioned. Let the flames begin.

CP3 did hit the clubs though. A nice and classy guy? Yes. But did he still hit the clubs underage? Yes. This is pathetic. for the cops to actually pursue this "tip" is even more pathetic. Unless they saw Harden with their own two eyes they should not even investigate. If some person ran to a cop tomorrow night and said onthestrip went into rokbar being underage do you think they would run over there to look into it?

The USA is the only non muslim country that has a drinking age of 21.

And no one has discussed how this law was enacted. Its basically the federal government strong arming states.

And for those of you who are so hard on the guy for breaking the law, I hope you report all your purchases on the internet to the Oklahoma tax commission.

Because by law your supposed to be paying 4.5% in taxes to the great state of Oklahoma.

mmonroe: I did adult things at six and twelve; however, doing adult things doesn't make you an adult.

Quit drafting kids at 18 if they aren't old enough to drink! They can drink on a military base at 18 with a military ID--so what's the difference if they can fight for their country at that age--why not let them drink?

I was in the military for 20 years. When I first came in, 18 year olds could drink beer, but not liquor or wine. Then, sometime in the latter 70's the laws changed and even the military had to be 21 to purchase and drink beer. Of course that didn't stop the underage drinking, it just pert much meant that anyone under 21 couldn't go into the Base Clubs or Class 6 Package Stores anymore.

But, I agree...you can drive at 18, you can vote at 18, you can join the military at 18, you can get married at 18. So, if they want a beer...let em!

The USA is the only non muslim country that has a drinking age of 21.

And no one has discussed how this law was enacted. Its basically the federal government strong arming states.

And for those of you who are so hard on the guy for breaking the law, I hope you report all your purchases on the internet to the Oklahoma tax commission.

Because by law your supposed to be paying 4.5% in taxes to the great state of Oklahoma.



OU Adonis: You are correct and I'm glad you took the time to cite the law about taxes--classic example.

That's the way we are as people, we are willing to operate, enforce the laws on everyone else by when it applies to us are we willing to accept the fact that laws are written for a reason and we must first be honest with ourselves.

We live in a nation with troubling times where all people want to do is point the finger and rationalize when they do something wrong and why they should be exempt from the law.

The situation that happen with Harden has occurred with other high profile athletics in Bricktown at bars where someone contacts the police to see that justice is being done.

I can't recall this incident; however, wasn't an OU quarterback cited for being in one of the clubs in Bricktown and he was accually drinking?

Why didn't this person who flagged down a policeman just simply go to the management and voice his concern that James Harden was underage?

Maybe it's just me, but I have a feeling if Harden had actually been cited for something, this thread might already be triple its length and quadruple its outrage.

:sofa:

OK, compare the world.

How soon does a person mature in society in a country that offers 18 yo legal drinking, vs the US where it's 21.

Cost of living in another country is much less than the US...

So many things to compare. I mean, it's all the same right, somewhere else vs. here.

OK, compare the world.

How soon does a person mature in society in a country that offers 18 yo legal drinking, vs the US where it's 21.

Cost of living in another country is much less than the US...

So many things to compare. I mean, it's all the same right, somewhere else vs. here.

You do realize that the USA is not the richest per capita country in the world right? 4 of the 5 countries richer than us have lower drinking ages. The other country bans booze outright (Muslim).

The USA is the only non muslim country that has a drinking age of 21.

And no one has discussed how this law was enacted. Its basically the federal government strong arming states.



I was under the impression back when the drinking age was 18 just over 25 years ago that too many 18-20 years old were driving drunk and getting killed, so it was decided to raise the drinking age to 21. And as you implied the states had to raise their drinking ages to 21 or face losing highway funding.

However, these days I think there's greater public awareness and outrage about the danger of driving after drinking. Along with response to that increased public outrage, cops have been more motivated to go after drunk drivers after the max blood level content for alcohol was lowered from .1 to .08. Believe me, the cops are a lot more concerned over drunken driving now than they were three decades ago.

And from today's advanced technology that wasn't practical three decades ago a dad can give his son for his 18th birthday a tiny electronic breathalyzer for alcohol.

Finally, if the drinking age was lowered to 18, Stillwater could maybe once again be one of the top party towns in America.

Like most laws aimed at younger citizens, it is parents trying to keep their kids from doing the things they did because they know how they were. You also get the temperance types supporting those type of laws as well.

The Feds blackmailed the states into changing the drinking age law, I still knew more "older people" who got DUI's than people in the 18-25 age group but of course opposition will usually make up whatever makes their cause a stronger one. The law in OK changed a few months before my 20th birthday, it wasn't enforced all that strictly for a couple of years. There wasn't the "grandfather" provision like there was in Louisiana allowing those 18 by the date it went into effect to legally purchase alcohol.

No. You missed the point. It was one in a list of several things that shows James Harden is an ADULT and sometimes laws are made to be broken. I'm not condoning it - I'm just being realistic. Considering 21 is very late in life compared to the rest of the world, it's not like I'm way out of line.

Metro, Nobody would ever know Joe Blow off the street was even there. Do you know how common this is? Really? It's just the way it is. Right, wrong or indifferent...it goes on all the time. The burden here is almost always on the owner/manager to keep them out, because it's almost a rite-of-passage to try.

I'm not ignorant to the fact that it doesn't but it doesn't make it "right, just because MIKEOKC says so. The law is the law and if you get caught breaking it, well then it's on that person, regardless of how "archaic" it might be.


They need to make a law that makes Thunder players exempt from all other laws. Under 21, James Harden? Come on in, let me buy you a drink. Thabo Sefolosha, you say you'd like to be able to drive 70 in a school zone? Totally cool with us. Attention, Kevin Durant: If you ever feel like just shooting some random guy in the face, we'll let it slide. You led the league in scoring, after all--it's the least we can do. You guys just feel free to break any laws you want to here in OKC, as long as you're still playing for the Thunder, that is.

Yeah :welcome5:


I agree with metro 100%.

No one is above the law, we all are to abide by it no matter what our status is. James Hardin is a great player, and I am so proud to have him in Oklahoma City playing for our Thunder. He has been given the honor and responsibility of representing us, and if he can't do that, then he shouldn't be in the position.

I would rather have an upright, moral team that never wins a playoff game, than a team that is the best in the land, but is known to be involved in drugs, drinking (not probably what James was doing, I mean known for being drunk all the time and constantly behind the drink), bar fights, and drunk driving -- all around thugs and punks.

This is not a slam on James or any of our other players, I think they are doing a great job of representing our city, representing themselves as moral people, and being a great team.

Everyone makes mistakes, comes with that age bracket. If this becomes a regular occurrence with him, I will not support him -- as should all of us. If he can't represent and handle himself, then he doesn't need to represent us.

Off my soapbox, I think James is a great player and I'm glad to have him here. May this serve as a learning experience for him -- wait one more year James and I won't have a problem with this.


Thanks, it's good to see some people stand up for integrity and the right thing, regardless of how unpopular it is, even if it's a law you don't agree with, it's still a law. I'm not saying I don't speed on occasion, but if a cop pulls me over, I don't argue that I was speeding, I pay the ticket and say it's an archaic law and that "everyone speeds", these days everyone thinks the speed limit is the minimum, but that doesn't make my speeding right.

Like most laws aimed at younger citizens, it is parents trying to keep their kids from doing the things they did because they know how they were. You also get the temperance types supporting those type of laws as well.
Yep, there's nothing worse than a reformed ________. Drinker, smoker, etc. It was fine for them when they wanted to engage in certain behaviors but now that they're older and wiser, no one else should be able to do the same.

The 21 year old drinking limit sure seems like an outdated law these days.

Earth to Metro. While I agree with you in many ways, I am also a realist. A 20 year-old in a bar is very common. One of the wealthiest men in Oklahoma City at $4,000,000.00 a year (yes, four million) not being allowed in a bar is ridiculous. He's an adult in every other way. He can be a huge draw in his employment, pay ridiculous amounts in taxes, he can vote, own a home, he's an adult if a crime is committed, he can fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you want to say he can't walk in a club and have a drink? Again, Earth to Metro.

One thing it does remind us about the Thunder, a lot of these guys are just barely out of high school and college. They're young, and with that kind of money, they are vulnerable to many things. The least of which is doing what zillions of other 20 year-old guys do, and sneak in a bar.

Really, this is not even worthy of conversation and discussion. It's just because of who he is that we're batting this back and forth. Some things, Metro, just will be. Fake ID's and sliding into a bar before 21 is a lot like not wearing a seatbelt...yeah, it's the law, but sometimes it just is and always will be.

His income has nothing to do with it.

I'll sum up my argument for an 18 drinking age right here....if you're old enough to fight and die for your country, then you're old enough to drink some damned alcohol. Think about how little alcoholism plays in European life because people are exposed to it in a more balanced way. When you grow up and something is banned from you using it, you want it more. Then when you can have it, it's not as big of a deal.

Now that's not to say people don't make stupid decisions, but hell, they do it now too. Just because you have a license at 16,18,21....does that really make you any more compenant of a driver. You can still be an unsafe idiot at any age.

His income has nothing to do with it.

No, not in the law. Again, it's part of the litany of things that can be done at 18, but drinking a beer means waiting until 21. I am 50 years-old and have no personal dog in this fight. My point is along the lines of the fight for the country, marry, enter into legal contracts, etc. The income only says in his case that he can earn $4 million dollars, pay over $1.3 million in taxes - but he can't drink a beer.

It's not favoritism, his income, or anything else, other than my argument that the law makes 18 the norm for "legal adult" in all things in America, the drinking age in most parts of the world, and the antiquity of our own drinking law.


I'm not ignorant to the fact that it doesn't but it doesn't make it "right, just because MIKEOKC says so.

Metro, What I ('MikeOKC' as you said) say is just an opinion, just as 'Metro' has an opinion. Of all people, you should understand our opinions don't make new laws, or even suggest that we're always right.

I may be wrong on all of this, but it's how I see it. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why the correlation between the drinking age and military service? You can be drafted at 18 but you can't run for Congress until you are 25. What is up with that? Or how about being charged as adult at CiCi's buffet at age 12 but you can't see an R rated movie.

Do you know why you can enter the military at 18? It is because you don't know any better. It is a lot easier to get an 18 year old to try and take a hill then it is to get a 21 year old to try it. I know - I entered the Army at 20 and people just 2 years younger than me would do stuff I wouldn't even consider doing. The difference between 18 and 21 is huge when life and death is on the line.

self-delete
(double post)

Since this has taken a turn into a debate over drinking laws and not as it relates to the harden incident, I think kit should be moved to 'Politics'.

Kerry...I am a social conservative yet understand reality and how America compares with the rest of the world on this issue. The reason people use the age to fight for your country as an example is that it's 18. 18 is the legal norm for darn near everything. Period. Your examples of CiCi's Pizza and the Congress is totally irrelevant in this conversation. The 12 year-old buffet has nothing to do with what a child can, or cannot, do legally and is just plain silly, so much so it doesn't deserve an educated response. You're smarter than this. The age-qualification at 25 for the Congress is in the U.S. Constitution. It happens to be age 30 for U.S. Senate - should we wait and only allow those age 30 and older to drink because.....see?.....horrible analogy, Kerry.

There is a reason it is 18 in the developed western world. The point that one can do anything and everything legally (excepting constitutional grounds), is an argument that, agree or not, cannot be seriously dismissed as you did with your CiCi's comments. It's a legitimate argument whether you agree with it or not.

Again, this has turned into a minimum drinking-age debate and, in my opinion, should be moved to 'Politics.'

MikeOKC - all I was trying to point out is that using the adult age for one activity should have no impact on the adult age for another activity. They are different activites. I might add that you have to be 25 to rent a car.

MikeOKC - all I was trying to point out is that using the adult age for one activity should have no impact on the adult age for another activity. They are different activites. I might add that you have to be 25 to rent a car.


The 25 thing for car rental is a car rental rule, not a law (if I recall correctly).

As far as the age to be in the US senate ect, thats a completely different topic all together and as someone has already posted thats spelled out in the constitution.

As the law stands right now, your basically taking out the parents when it comes to educating young adults about being responsible with booze.

Holy cow - are you guys not getting it?

Many people in this thread said you should be able to drink at 18 because you can join the military at 18. All I am saying is that the two have nothing to do with each other. I then gave some examples of other age restrictions to show how stupid trying compare the two standards is.

Harden shouldn't have been in a bar - he knows he isn't 21. He shouldn't be driving a rental car either because he isn't 25. When he goes to CiCi's Pizza he has to pay the adult price. He can see a rated R movie without his parents, however he can't see a rated X movie. He can't retire and collect Social Security yet and he is ineligible for Medicare. He can drive a car all by himself. He can't play on the climbing equipment at Chuck E Cheese.

Why the correlation between the drinking age and military service? You can be drafted at 18 but you can't run for Congress until you are 25. What is up with that?
Interesting point and good analogy. I'm assuming the age limit for running for Congress is in place because hopefully by 25 the person has gained some wisdom which will help them make more sound decisions than a 21 year old. Seems that this is what's behind the 21 drinking age also in that a 21 year old should be able to make a better decision about when and when not to drink. However, I'm not sure I agree because I've known plenty of really crazy 21 year olds. 21 compared to 18 in decision making capabilities really is specific to the individual and has little to do with age.

The reason I believe that if you're old enough to serve in the military you should be able to drink is because I think society places too great of an emphasis on the benefits of forced prohibition. Yes age limits are forced prohibition IMO. Prohibition doesn't work....it never has and never will. All it does is drive the price up for those people that want to drink but aren't allowed to due to the prohibition. The liquor is still available and people either have to pay more for it or be creative in how they get it.

When I was 18, I would pay a 21 yr old friend to get it for me. My older brothers sometimes would do this for me or bosses at fast food restaurants. If none of them were around, I'd go down to a poorer part of town to a convenience store with an asian and buy it there.....rarely did I ever get carded.....like it only happened once. If none of that worked, time to raid mom and dad's stash. If that didn't work, hang out at a convenience store and offer someone a $20 to pick some up for us.

My point is that it's available if someone wants to drink.

While I agree that the drinking age and military service don't have anything to do with each other, tying it to military service is easier to say than all that I typed above.

I mean I could make the argument that only military people can drink if they're under 21 and I honestly think this should be the case. Why? Because serving in the military benefits society and it carries the potential for HUGE risks. Military service provides other benefits for those that serve and I think think being able to drink is a good benefit and would help increase the number of active duty personnel.

It's crazy isn't it....now the rental car thing depends on the company....it's just insurance. 16-25 is the highest risk age....and I can't say I blame the companies that do that.

Mike - I'm not arguing the vailidity of the military age requirement....you're very correct on that front. I'm just saying that if a person is willing to put their life on the line to protect my freedom, then I feel they should be allowed to legally embibe a few cold ones without being hassled about it.

On a personal front, I'd probablly leave the congress thing at 25...as you say, there's a lot of growing up to do in that age. However, I would be hypocritical if I didn't say that the same change really should allow an 18 year old to be elected. If that person can convince voters to vote for him/her, why not let them in office? Perhaps that would put some younger lively and un-corrupted blood in the mix for a change. Enough with the 80 year old farts that have screwed things up for decades.

I think texing while driving should be a bigger concern than kids driving drunk. Texting while driving is 23 more times likely to have an accident vs a person without any distractions.

Its good to see that more States are banning texting while driving.

Amen

Actually you can rent a car if you are under 25. I did it in san diego and in florida, but I had to pay a higher price

KILL THE SNITCH! :p for real though what an assclown. Harden def should have known better ( he does but being 20 myself I can tell you he doesnt care outside of personal image). Im just amazed at the attention starved person who thought it was their rightful duty to tell... Dunno why but makes my blood boil GRRRRRR

being an adult doesn't impair judgment, getting married (might argue against that, LOL), voting, or joining the military doesn't either.

Alcohol does.