Metro, I assure you I'm not getting rich off the books - it's pretty much a labor of love - a way to give back to my city.
You've read things into posts 26 and 49 that I never intended, and I don't see. As for the rest of this, you're clearly misquoting what I said, taking things personally. Slow down and read what I've written again. I never said all anonymous posters are cowards. This can go round and round, and this is devolving into a flame war. And that's a waste of time.
If it makes you feel better, I'll say "You know it all Metro. I'm totally in the wrong." Go forth and enjoy your day.

Hey everyone, thanks for the lively discussion about our new venture. It has been interesting to watch some of the conversation. I have been following along in my free moments, of which there are precious few right now. I will say that I think it's a bit unfortunate that the discussion has devolved into various posters bashing each other's viewpoints or even each other, deviating far off-topic, but whatever. Seems to be par-for-the-course for online forums sometimes.

Steve, thanks for the great article, and thanks for defending our honor a bit in saying we have no intention to let our operation become a "flea market," at least by the recent, local definition of the word. We are very keen on keeping a high-quality, even upscale flavor about the place. Our track record of course includes Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium. I bristle a bit when at times I hear it described here as "tourist crap" or a "knick knack shop," but generally bite my tongue.

Metro, thanks to you also for saying, among other things, that you respect what we're doing down here. At the same time, I know you have used some of the aforementioned descriptions, and I think they do our store and others a disservice, in the name of making a point.

We have gone to much effort and expense to be much more than that, even though the sheer amount of visitors in Bricktown demands that a wise operator acknowledge and cater to them, or ultimately fail. There have been many examples of operators NOT doing this, so I will not belabor that point here.

I mentioned in a Journal Record interview in '07 when the Red Dirt Emporium opened that we would never be in the "rubber tomahawk" business, and we have held fast to that promise, even though I GUARANTEE you that rubber tomahawks could be sold by the bushels-full in Bricktown. You won't find too many people more committed than I am to portraying Oklahoma and OKC in their best possible light, and I think we have gone to extraordinary lengths in the store to do so. While acknowledging and embracing the large number of visitors, we have selected much of our merchandise specifically to appeal primarily to locals, and we get great feedback daily from locals who are pleasantly surprised by what we offer.

The Bricktown Red Dirt Marketplace will be another attempt to pull off a high-quality retail venture, and in this particular case one that will have even more appeal, we hope, to locals. Engaging (or re-engaging) locals is one of Bricktown's most critical needs today.

Metro (and others) I too live downtown and work downtown, and in fact have done one and/or both of these things for about 20 years. You and I agree on a tremendous amount about what types of retail we'd like to see down here longterm. I'm the guy who ten years ago as the director of the Automobile Alley Main Street Program naively spent hours on the phone with real estate departments of stores like Restoration Hardware, begging them to consider Oklahoma City and specifically Broadway as a future location.

I don't think the two types of retail being discussed here for Bricktown are mutually exclusive; in fact I think one can encourage and drive the other. I believe sometimes, though, we get so anxious, impatient and personally motivated to see one type of thing that we don't see the forest for the trees, and miss the things that actually WILL work. This is an apples and oranges discussion to some extent, but what it REALLY is is a chicken-or-egg discussion. I'll save that for another post though.

Rest assured that this new venture (like our earlier one) came after only very careful deliberation and much planning. There is of course never a guarantee that any new business will work out, and there's always the possibility that I could be on here in the future eating crow. At this point, though, we feel very confident, and these thoughts have only been bolstered by the response we have received from real retailers with real experience and resources since our announcement. I hope to share news regarding them and other aspects of our operation when the time is right.

I will also say that the headline for Steve's story (which, if you know how this works, Steve did NOT write), is the cause of much of the flap that has occurred in this thread. I certainly don't want the pressure of being THE answer to the retail blues in Bricktown, nor do I think it's the case. I would, though, suggest that it could just as easily be read "Bricktown may soon offer AN answer to retail woes." AN answer. I do believe that we can be AN answer, and hope that ultimately we are one of MANY answers.

When things settle a bit I will try to put into words just why we are pursuing our current retail product, including things I have learned in the past as a Main Street manager, as an urban planning enthusiast/voracious reader, as a retailer, as a longtime downtowner, as a tourism industry professional, and from people much more experienced than me in the real estate and retail industries. There is definitely a method to our madness. Everyone's a blogger these days, so I will probably do so on my heretofore-inactive blog, and save you guys the long posts here, giving you a link to the blog.

Finally, I will leave you with some of the inspiration behind our marketplace, if you are interested. Instead of the AMC flea market, I would ask you to look into or consider things like Pike Place Market in Seattle, or Faneuil Hall in Boston. I will not pretend that at this point we will resemble those places. But to some extent they are a roadmap for what in my opinion could be PART of the future of Bricktown.

Thanks again for your interest, and for your opinions, positive or negative. If you feel like supporting the venture, I thank you also for your good wishes.

Chad

No offense intended, but could everyone stop being such drama queens? You can debate without being all emotional.


Finally, I will leave you with some of the inspiration behind our marketplace, if you are interested. Instead of the AMC flea market, I would ask you to look into or consider things like Pike Place Market in Seattle, or Faneuil Hall in Boston. I will not pretend that at this point we will resemble those places. But to some extent they are a roadmap for what in my opinion could be PART of the future of Bricktown.

There are plenty of urban "flea markets" that do not necessarily fit the traditional negative connotation of the phrase flea market. Eastern Market in Washington, DC is another perfect example of this.

Classy post Urbanized, thanks for bringing us back to civility. Well said about your business and clarifying any grey areas.


Metro, thanks to you also for saying, among other things, that you respect what we're doing down here. At the same time, I know you have used some of the aforementioned descriptions, and I think they do our store and others a disservice, in the name of making a point.

We have gone to much effort and expense to be much more than that, even though the sheer amount of visitors in Bricktown demands that a wise operator acknowledge and cater to them, or ultimately fail. There have been many examples of operators NOT doing this, so I will not belabor that point here.

Agree it was a blanket statement. To clarify, I was one of the few that didn't use the term flea market, just implied touristy crap and I will do my part to try to better state what you sell. You do try to sell quality goods and not "rubber tomahawks" and at the end of the day you're being a wise operator. I totally agree with that and was stating that, just in a less polished way. I agree you're just catering to your crowd and making your paycheck. My point to Steve and others was just that it's not the solution to our retail woes as the Oklahoman headline author wrote. I also clearly stated this in my post that he did not write it and that a headline writer did. I think we all got overboard including myself. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when we're constantly provoked for our comments on certain topics on websites that survives off anonymous posters and has changed the traditional media.

I will also say that the headline for Steve's story (which, if you know how this works, Steve did NOT write), is the cause of much of the flap that has occurred in this thread. I certainly don't want the pressure of being THE answer to the retail blues in Bricktown, nor do I think it's the case. I would, though, suggest that it could just as easily be read "Bricktown may soon offer AN answer to retail woes." AN answer. I do believe that we can be AN answer, and hope that ultimately we are one of MANY answers.

This is the best point I've seen made on OKC Talk in a long time. Although I'm not a journalist, I've always disliked editors who are pompous enough to edit something they know nothing about. Bricktown, in this case. What's wrong with a title like, "Bricktown entrepreneur plans Red Dirt Marketplace"?

Anyway, back to the marketplace. Chad, this is going in on the canal, right? I'm sure wherever this goes, a marketplace space will inject some vitality into wherever it goes.

Spartan, definitely on the canal. The space is perhaps the most prime frontage on the waterway. It is in the historic Miller-Jackson Building, the same building that of course houses Red Dirt Emporium (http://www.reddirtemporium.com/), but also is home to Put A Cork In It (http://www.ucorkit.com/) winery and tasting bar.

On the floor above, the building is home to Hooters and Rok Bar (I'll let you track down your own web links), a small one-man art gallery and a convenience store. The balance of the building is nearly fully-leased to a variety of office tenants (lawyers, consulting firms, OKC YardDawgz).

We're really happy to be finishing out some space in this building that has NEVER been occupied. Literally; the soon-to-be marketplace space (6,000 feet) has been the catch-all basement storage space for the Miller-Jackson Company since the 1920s, when this part of the building was scabbed onto the original 1904 construction. When we started Red Dirt Emporium, and as far back as '06 when we were planning that store, we envisioned this space as this exact application.

This particular space has a low ceiling height that would probably make much of the national retail that has been discussed here, or even a restaurant, difficult to pull off. However, we believe it works well for us and have embraced the building with the store design. If you'd like to see some of the cool old features that we have highlighted during construction, check out this photo album (http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=174630&id=49732206261) on the Red Dirt Emporium Facebook profile.

One of the things that makes the space even more appealing is that it has perhaps the best canal-side patio in Bricktown, about 1,500 square feet of it. Since 1999, it has never been utilized well, if at all. We are very committed to having regular events on the patio, including live music from ACM (http://acm.uco.edu/) students, sidewalk events with our own vendors, and perhaps even farmers' market type events if they prove to be sustainable. We are working hard in that direction, though we're not far enough along to announce anything.

One of the most sobering aspects of this development is that I believe it will represent the largest amount of single-entity retail square footage, not just in Bricktown, but in ALL OF DOWNTOWN, with the exception of Bass Pro. 6,000 feet, plus our store which is about 1,200. I may be wrong about this, and would welcome correction, but as of yet I haven't found anyone able to dispute it. I relay this tidbit not to toot our own horn, but to show how far downtown has to come before it is even in the game from a retail standpoint.

So yes, we hope it brings vitality to the canal. Our belief is that it will do that, and perhaps that it will stimulate other retail growth in the district. Time will tell.

And Nick, as much as I believe our efforts will be a good thing for Bricktown, the marketplace is NOT one of the "game changers" I mentioned being in the pipeline for Bricktown a few months back, that inspired your blog rant. And I mean "rant" in the nicest way :wink: . I really do believe there are some great things headed this direction in coming months that will get everybody's attention, in a very good way.

We tried to do this project the opposite of the old-school Bricktown way; that is we kept it as quiet as possible until it was a sure thing and a done deal. I think you're going to see more of that strategy from others in the future.

When we were working on JDM I always tried to sell them on on a food court with a convenience store for the basement level kind of like Robinson Renaissance. Since the deck is so low in there and the beams where the old freight elevators so deep it seemed like a more viable option instead of trying to put something higher end in there. Higher end would probably want higher ceilings, I know Maker's looked at it one time because I gave him some drawings.

I think there needs to be retail development both on the canal and in the Lower Canal portion. Get rid of the surface lots, replace them with garages and develop a lifestyle center mall around the theater and what is already there and where I-40 is coming out. Of course that could be possible if you could get a hold of the U-Haul building and cottonseed plant....it's only money after all.....

I actually attend a lot of meetings and functions "off the clock." And if you show up at the Cox Convention Center at 5:30 p.m. Monday, you'll see where I've invested much of my free time the past three months in trying to get a better understanding of why downtown looks the way it does, why things have happened, and what we might learn from our past. And I'm one of OKCTalk's biggest defenders, believe it or not. I question and challenge OKCTalk because I want it to be a viable voice in this community. Pete is hosting this site as a public service - I see no greed on his behalf, only a love for his old hometown.
But I'm questioning whether it's enough to say "oh, that marketplace is going to be nothing more than a flea market (really???), and we're a failure without big names like Saks." If you listen to the experts - and I'm challenging you to do just that (Metro, I'm sorry, but neither you or I are experts on retail), then you'll find out that Saks ISN'T coming. Nordstrums isn't coming. And in general the major high-end retailers aren't going to come unless we nurture and grow our locally-owned retailers into something that will convince the big high-end retailers OKC is worth a shot.
Now, what's one way to give small retailers a shot at a successful start downtown????

Steve,

I don't see a lot of local retailers offering what those other high-end retailers do. That said, the citizens of this city have nurtured Balliet's, B.C. Clark, Mr. Ooley's and others. Are you suggesting our city hasn't nurtured those retailers? That's absurd.

We get that Saks and Nordstrom aren't here and won't be soon. But couldn't that have something to do with the submoronic retail strategy our city has engaged in -- with the support of your newspaper -- to put its chips into a Bass Pro Shop in Bricktown (which financially benefited the owner of your newspaper)?

We can't undo the Bass Pro move, but what a dumb move that was if the goal was to build a retail base in Bricktown.

Wow,it's getting a little chippy in this thread!ding ding.

Got chirpy when everyone started taking everything personally. I've written stories about how Bass Pro has fallen short of expectations. And I covered all the issues involving Bass Pro when the debate occurred, including concerns by rival retailers, questions about the hiring of the consultant, etc. And yeah, at the time I reported the company's ownership interest.
Sooner, you bring up good points about Balliets, etc. So why hasn't that translated into bringing the sort of retailers that have chosen to locate in Tulsa?

duplicate post

I think I used the term "flea market style". These are going to be booths rented by individuals with centralized check-out correct? OK - maybe not "flea-market style" but definitely "antique mall style". It might serve a niche but in 10 years no one is going to say this is the idea that saved Bricktown retail.

Exactly. From the article:


The marketplace offers vendors a chance to open small shops with rent ranging from $288 to $1,200 a month, and with the Emporium operators handling day-to-day sales and staffing.
...
The setup currently allows for up to 42 booths and 40 wall spaces (areas ideal for art vendors). He said some retailers are interested in leasing double-sized booths — a variable that leaves Huntington estimating the marketplace will be home to between 60 and 80 vendors.

Sounds like the set up many of the antique malls around here have (though from the pics, it looks like this is less "open", with full height walls around the booths (rather than the half walls/lattice work). But instead of vendors having to man the booth themselves, the Mall employees will be available for help and a centralized check-out.

Am curious though about the full walls, seems it might be a security concern. With the more open half walls, staff can keep an eye on things easier (shoplifting etc). If not mistaken this is in the canal/basement level? With the low ceiling height etc, seems a bit closterphopic (sp) to do the full partitions/booths etc. Needs to be really well lit if that is the case.

Love keeping as much of the original character of the building as is possible. Wish them the greatest success!

Where did the confusion of the headline come from? The original post that started the thread (doesn’t indicate that it was edited) says:

“Bricktown may soon offer an answer to retail woes”

Not THE answer, but AN answer. While it is certainly possible the headline changed, the text in the post, the online link and the printed article in the paper all say the same thing. Do you people stay up at night just thinking of ways to keep me confused? Really, no need to do that, it isn't that hard...LOL


Steve, could you post links to those (Bass Pro)? The last thing I remember reading was several years ago. Thank in advance!

Larry, in fairness, I think the headline was changed after the debate started up

And Nick, as much as I believe our efforts will be a good thing for Bricktown, the marketplace is NOT one of the "game changers" I mentioned being in the pipeline for Bricktown a few months back, that inspired your blog rant. And I mean "rant" in the nicest way :wink:

What, you mean you don't like my rants? :doh:

On a side note this thread has become more pleasant.

Always guaranteed to make a thread drop like a rock. I should have encouraged more controversy!

I'll see if I can get some of the photos to display here so people can better understand the space:



http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs309.snc3/29058_391319266261_49732206261_4496674_6920038_n.j pg

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs309.snc3/29058_391319261261_49732206261_4496673_1343364_n.j pg

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http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs309.snc3/29058_391322611261_49732206261_4496779_3060871_n.j pg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs309.snc3/29058_391322606261_49732206261_4496778_7038264_n.j pg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs329.snc3/29058_391322616261_49732206261_4496780_166144_n.jp g

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http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs531.ash1/31141_391601501261_49732206261_4501887_7478808_n.j pg

Larry, in fairness, I think the headline was changed after the debate started up

That may very well be and is a possibility...however, as I posted original post that started the thread (both the typed info and the link and the printed piece in the paper all match. Also, the original post doesn't indicate it was edited (re: the typed text).

The headline was not changed. It said "an answer," not "the answer." And no, I don't write headlines, though I will clean the windows if asked nicely.

Urnaized: absolutely LOVE the exposed brick, beams, hardware etc. My only "complaint" is the full-height walls of the booths really obstruct being able to see it all. Not just from an asthetics (sp) point but also from a business security point (shoplifting etc).

This space is in the basement/canal level, right? Hopefully you have plenty of lighting to counteract the full height walls. I missed it, but when is the opening planned? I definitely want to check it out!

I don't envy the security issues, but yeah, I can see popping in to browse/buy, depending on the selection.

That rolling door on the track is an absolute treasure!

That rolling door on the track is an absolute treasure!

Totally. I love those

I am doing a "barn door" on a project and found a source for classic and modern hardware.
BarnDoorHardware.com (http://www.barndoorhardware.com/)

I really love the variety of building materials that you've assembled on the interior, it's very gritty, very Bricktown.

Will you be able to have sidewalk vendors to draw people in or will that require a special city permit in OKC?

We did consider and do understand the security challenges posed by the full-height walls. They will be offset in part by a pretty sophisticated camera system, our staffing plan, and other means. Believe it or not, the number one deterrant to retail theft is... ...talking to customers.

You'd also be surprised when you step into the space how few truly blind spots there are, all things considered, due to the way the spaces are staggered, and due to the number of areas where we have strategically placed half-height walls and other elements.

We decided to go with the full-height walls after studying a number of similar places locally and elsewhere. The types of vendors we hope/expect to attract will be heavily made up of people who trade in home decor, art and the like. Already we have leased to a number of artists. They require walls for artwork, and persons dealing in decor generally feature other types of wall hangings.

Also, we have observed that the places that sublet to individual vendors seem to be much more likely to resemble rummage sales or what most people think of as flea markets, and are generally disorderly in appearance. Add to that the fact that the places with no walls ususally end up with tall divisions anyway - typically crummy cabinets or lattice or whatnot furnished by vendors - and we felt it was wise to go to the extra expense and effort to physically define the spaces ourselves.

Larry, regarding lighting we have installed track lighting tracks inside each booth and in front of most wall space. Since most retailers prefer to provide their own lighting plan, and since there are many, many types of bulbs and fixtures to choose from, we are allowing them to furnish their own track heads. The marketplace will be very well lit. We also benefit from some great window openings in front - especially considering it is a "basement" - and the hallways and booth wall heights are designed in such a way as to maximize the natural light.

Right now we are hoping to be open before June 1, with some vendors perhaps moving in and opening even in late May. Right now our timeline is mostly driven by knocking out a few construction details and getting a final inspection and C.O. from the City. We're hopeful that happens in the next two weeks or so. I would say the buildout is at this point 90%+ complete.

Spartan, the answer to your question is that we definitely will have sidewalk vendors, at least during times when they make sense. We're still looking into the permitting issue as it relates to our patio, since it is private rather than public property. We do know that as long as we are the point of the transaction itself, no additional permits are required. It is possible that third-party vendors who take payment directly would require them, but I believe that process was recently streamlined by city council. This is what we will be investigating before proceeding with outdoor events that involve third-party payment transactions.

That will be really, really cool. I agree with Nick in that it's very Bricktown.

I am doing a "barn door" on a project and found a source for classic and modern hardware.
BarnDoorHardware.com (http://www.barndoorhardware.com/)

I haven't seen their hardware in the flesh, but I have a couple of the "Supra" door systems going in at a state park lodge this summer. I can't wait.

I haven't seen their hardware in the flesh, but I have a couple of the "Supra" door systems going in at a state park lodge this summer. I can't wait.

Yup I am familliar with the german companies systems, They are so sweet and so dang expensive! I had a Hotel that we specified them for the barn door hardware and were using the spider and the Duplex-S. The project is permitted and everything yet is in a holding pattern with financing issues. I am hopeful that it will come back though as we already had the operator in place. Oh well I guess we will wait and see!

The project is permitted and everything yet is in a holding pattern with financing issues.
Doesn't that seem like the story of our business life right now?

barndoorhardware.com advertises quite a bit in Dwell magazine, which has led me to spend more time than I probably should online lusting after their stuff. I caught the hardware bug 20 years ago when I worked for Designer Hardware on Wilshire. The place had/has the most amazing high-end hardware. We regularly had customers traveling from Dallas to shop there, as to my knowledge no place like it existed even in big D at the time. Nowadays a lot of that stuff is knocked off/available by special order at discounters, but not then. To this day I don't look at plumbing or door/cabinet hardware the same way. Geeky, I know.

Clearly Steve Lackmeyer is to blame for all of this.

barndoorhardware.com advertises quite a bit in Dwell magazine, which has led me to spend more time than I probably should online lusting after their stuff. I caught the hardware bug 20 years ago when I worked for Designer Hardware on Wilshire. The place had/has the most amazing high-end hardware. We regularly had customers traveling from Dallas to shop there, as to my knowledge no place like it existed even in big D at the time. Nowadays a lot of that stuff is knocked off/available by special order at discounters, but not then. To this day I don't look at plumbing or door/cabinet hardware the same way. Geeky, I know.

Don't tell Spartan that anyone from Dallas ever came here to shop, he only thinks that all of us go to Dallas to shop because they have everything that we don't.

Don't tell Spartan that anyone from Dallas ever came here to shop, he only thinks that all of us go to Dallas to shop because they have everything that we don't.

or Tulsa. :lol2:

With large destination retail these days, you get either or a couple of design parameters, single-use buildings such as Bass Pro or large main street master designed destinations such as Market Street in the Woodlands or Shreveport's Riverwalk. And pe of while these are indeed, all upscale destination retail, you have to understand that this type of development doesn't happen without a single entity developer. And since that does not exist in Bricktown, you have a conglomeration of mixed use of available properties that, in time develops with the right mix of tennants.

Furthermore, the large retail destinations that I speak of can be found in literally all markets. But what you don't get is local flavor. Tourism is one of the largest industries in the world. And the number one activity people undertake when traveling is shopping. However, people don't want to travel to see stores they can shop at in their own towns. They want something different. And that's why Red Dirt Marketplace and Red Dirt Emporium are exactly what Bricktown needs!

Devery Yougblood, former DOKC director used to say that retail always lags behind all other development. And there's a reason for this. You don't build foot traffic before retail in an urban environment. This means that in order for retailers to see the viability, the destination as a whole must be viable. Also, another real problem for retailers has been the high price of valuable Bricktown Property.

Red Dirt Marketplace addresses this issue with quality, premium space at an affordable price! How does that not spur new business?

You want to put a large upscale retail development with national firms like the Gap in downtown? Go right ahead. It will fall flat on it's face. Look at Las Olas Riverfront in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida or Las Calinas in Irvine, Texas. Nobody is going to travel to downtown to shop at large retailers they have at their local malls. You have to think outside the box when it comes to downtown retail.

Good luck to Red Dirt Marketplace. Hopefully it's the catalyst we've been waiting for!

Correction: I meant to say you won't build retail unless there is foot traffic in an urban environment. Now that Bricktown has the foot traffic, once the prices of existing space comes down to earth, you'll see retail pop. It just takes time.

Here's more information from Steve. This is a nice start, as a marketplace like this will sell the kinds of things visitors like to purchase. I don't think it will make it a destination retail site for locals, but it's nice to have some more retail downtown that sounds like it will complement the Red Dirt Emporium.

At least 22 new retailers will open for business Thursday along the Bricktown Canal as part of the new Bricktown Red Dirt Marketplace — a dream launched by two veterans of the entertainment district.

Read more: Bricktown gaining new retail offerings | NewsOK.com (http://www.newsok.com/bricktown-shoppers-to-find-new-options/article/3467266?custom_click=lead_story_title#ixzz0qKEiLRF W)