Is that Spring Creek in Edmond?

Yes, and I know the whole 'Don't Edmond my Norman' thing, but it still makes a point.

Time and time again, data shows that all encompassing village-type development far out gains strip center development in economic viability and profitability.

Yes, and I know the whole 'Don't Edmond my Norman' thing, but it still makes a point.

You'll get no argument from me. It's actually not a bad development, and if there was anything about Edmond that Norman should have copied, it is Spring Creek. Very nice strip mall and UNP would have done well to at least emulate that and not Westgate Marketplace.

Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.

It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.

Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.

It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.

When you drive the two developments, there's a very clear distinction between the two. And the portion of Spring Creek east of Bryant is actually far better than Westgate Marketplace. But I do see what you're saying. But Spring Creek would have been an improvement over UNP.

You'll get no argument from me. It's actually not a bad development, and if there was anything about Edmond that Norman should have copied, it is Spring Creek. Very nice strip mall and UNP would have done well to at least emulate that and not Westgate Marketplace.

I've seen shopping areas like Spring Creek in several Dallas suburbs. It would be nice if that were the standard here for strip shopping areas. That could be the standard and then people could always build better than that and more unique than that if they so desired but set that as the standard.

Spring Creek is a step in the right direction, but it's still got all of the attention onto the parking lot instead of facing towards the street or interacting with the street.

It looks a little better but I will argue that it functions almost the same as Westgate.Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.

Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.

You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas ;) (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. 3882

You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas ;) (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. 3882no you don't. You're exactly right, I support building urban in Edmond's downtown, but that's it. As far as building completely urban in suburban, I'm not on board with that. It just defeats the purpose, if you know what I mean.

Btw, that is a cool development. I'm just not a fan of New Urbanism

You don't have to build SUBurban in suburban areas ;) (see Davidson, NC)....very much a "suburban town" on the fringe of Charlotte, NC...but some of the best development I've seen....it's still completely drive-able and everything. 3882

There are developments like that all over suburban Charlotte. Ballantyne, on Charlotte's south side, blows it away. My hope is something like that eventually goes up in the Gaillardia area. I personally think Gaillardia is OKC's best shot at an upscale hybrid suburban/new urbanist district like being built in many other cities. Imagine having a centerpiece to Gaillardia with upscale restaurants and bars, upscale shopping, a movie theater, with 3-4 stories of housing above. It would be great for yuppies with families who want a pseudo-urban experience but with the benefit of the suburbs and good schools. If Charlotte can support several such districts, OKC should be able to support at least one. OKC would likely already have that kind of thing if it wasn't for the crash of 2008.

Dude, this is SUBurban, the building do not need to be up to the street by any means. These are designed to drive your car into a parking and get out and THEN walk around away from the street and do what you want to do.

Agreed. Spring Creek is great the way it is. In fact when strip malls are built in the future, I wish that would be the model they would use. That is the standard in most other cities.

There are developments like that all over suburban Charlotte. Ballantyne, on Charlotte's south side, blows it away. My hope is something like that eventually goes up in the Gaillardia area. I personally think Gaillardia is OKC's best shot at an upscale hybrid suburban/new urbanist district like being built in many other cities. Imagine having a centerpiece to Gaillardia with upscale restaurants and bars, upscale shopping, a movie theater, with 3-4 stories of housing above. It would be great for yuppies with families who want a pseudo-urban experience but with the benefit of the suburbs and good schools. If Charlotte can support several such districts, OKC should be able to support at least one. OKC would likely already have that kind of thing if it wasn't for the crash of 2008.something like The legacy development off of Preston rd. in Dallas would be awesome.

Baby steps, baby steps guys. There was no way a "mall of america" was going to be in Norman. Puhleezzz. I have a really hard time understanding why there has to be like 4 big mattress places all on one block. Whoever approves or plans these things is beyond me. The reasoning is bizarre.

Baby steps, baby steps guys. There was no way a "mall of america" was going to be in Norman. Puhleezzz. I have a really hard time understanding why there has to be like 4 big mattress places all on one block. Whoever approves or plans these things is beyond me. The reasoning is bizarre.

You think there is someone approving things and has a master plan. That's adorable.

Just kidding. ;)

You think there is someone approving things and has a master plan. That's adorable.

Just kidding. ;)

Haha, I wish!

Well someone must have thought that having a ton of mattress stores on one block was a good idea.

Haha, I wish!

Well someone must have thought that having a ton of mattress stores on one block was a good idea.

Or a gazillion grocery stores all in a compacted area.

Or one Asian restaurant literally in the parking lot of another.

These recent posts finally flipped the light switch for me. It's the only explanation really. The peeps who decide what goes where in UNP probably grew up with relatives who took them out every weekend to window shop on the Magnificent Mile of Cars ... waves and waves of cars jammed together and different versions of the same product sold side by side as far as their young eyes could see. When such a concept is hardwired into the brain, perhaps UNP was simply inevitable.

...yet people flock to UNP in droves. Is it because they like it or because Norman doesn't offer a different shopping choice?

BTW - do they not have a website with a map and store directory?

Couldn't say JTF. I only visit two places in UNP with any frequency at all, my bank and Qdoba. We've been into or grabbed takeout from some of the other eateries a time or two. I also use the road through UNP to go up to Tecumseh sometimes. The times I go through I see some traffic and cars in the p-lots, but I don't see mass numbers of folk.

...yet people flock to UNP in droves. Is it because they like it or because Norman doesn't offer a different shopping choice?

BTW - do they not have a website with a map and store directory?

People flock there because it's new...and Target is there as well.

Couldn't say JTF. I only visit two places in UNP with any frequency at all, my bank and Qdoba. We've been into or grabbed takeout from some of the other eateries a time or two. I also use the road through UNP to go up to Tecumseh sometimes. The times I go through I see some traffic and cars in the p-lots, but I don't see mass numbers of folk.
I cut through on that road to get to Tecumseh quite frequently, and UNP is always jammed up with cars, traffic, and people. People are going there for something, despite the complaining of many on this board.

I just wonder how much different things would have been if Norman had spent the $30 million on downtown instead and didn't do the TIF district. UNP was billed as this great generator of sales taxes but 60% of those sales taxes have to be spent on UNP.

OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ?lifestyles? (http://oudaily.com/news/2008/sep/11/norman-sells-new-lifestyles/)

Anyhow, UNP exists so really no point it discussing it.

It was billled as "destination retail"- not sure if a Dress Barn counts. Seems to me mostly redundant retail. Shop eat drink party local!! It's the best way to support the community.

I just wonder how much different things would have been if Norman had spent the $30 million on downtown instead and didn't do the TIF district. UNP was billed as this great generator of sales taxes but 60% of those sales taxes have to be spent on UNP.

OUDaily.com | Norman sells new ?lifestyles? (http://oudaily.com/news/2008/sep/11/norman-sells-new-lifestyles/)

Anyhow, UNP exists so really no point it discussing it.

Totally agree. Instead of investing money into creating something unique for Norman (you can still have these kinds of shops that are found in UNP in a "downtown" setting...see Southlake, Texas)....we've got UNP which is just a regular, normal, non-unique shopping center with redundant retail. It's "great" for sales tax, sure...but nothing to boast about.

Totally agree. Instead of investing money into creating something unique for Norman (you can still have these kinds of shops that are found in UNP in a "downtown" setting...see Southlake, Texas)....we've got UNP which is just a regular, normal, non-unique shopping center with redundant retail. It's "great" for sales tax, sure...but nothing to boast about.

This has been said before, but the part of UNP that was supposed to be "unique" still has not been built yet. The Target, Pei Wei, Kohl's, Academy, all of that development was intended to come first and generate traffic. It really is the Legacy Park and the Town Center area that will make or break this development, so in spite of some missteps, it's possible that this could still work out fine. BTW, people shop in UNP because it is convenient and there are stores and restaurants that people like (Super Target, Qdoba, Academy, etc.).

This has been said before, but the part of UNP that was supposed to be "unique" still has not been built yet. The Target, Pei Wei, Kohl's, Academy, all of that development was intended to come first and generate traffic. It really is the Legacy Park and the Town Center area that will make or break this development, so in spite of some missteps, it's possible that this could still work out fine. BTW, people shop in UNP because it is convenient and there are stores and restaurants that people like (Super Target, Qdoba, Academy, etc.).


another problem with the tax structure :P ....concerned with gettin that sales tax revenue above all else!

another problem with the tax structure :P ....concerned with gettin that sales tax revenue above all else!

Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?

Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?

I'd rather have property taxes.

Sales tax is very regressive, only covers goods and not necessarily services (selling law service, etc.). I'd rather have my city chiefly concerned with raising the city's property values because that benefits directly the city and its citizens. Sales tax creates an environment where, cities are trying to bring in any kind of business, fast food establishment, and whatever else to bring in the passer-by dollars.

That's just my opinion though! Everyone's entitled.

Would you rather we have local income taxes like many other states? Or extremely high property taxes?

I think it was a comment more about focusing efforts nearly 100% on the tax collection side and not considering if the development is self-supporting on the tax spending side. In other words, does it cost more tax money to support UNP than if all the stores in UNP were located where existing infrastructure was already located (and is still located).

I'd rather have property taxes.

Sales tax is very regressive, only covers goods and not necessarily services (selling law service, etc.). I'd rather have my city chiefly concerned with raising the city's property values because that benefits directly the city and its citizens. Sales tax creates an environment where, cities are trying to bring in any kind of business, fast food establishment, and whatever else to bring in the passer-by dollars.

That's just my opinion though! Everyone's entitled.

Okay I can understand that. So then let me ask you, do you currently own and pay property taxes? As a property owner I would rather see a sales tax in place to raise revenues and leave my property taxes alone.


I think it was a comment more about focusing efforts nearly 100% on the tax collection side and not considering if the development is self-supporting on the tax spending side. In other words, does it cost more tax money to support UNP than if all the stores in UNP were located where existing infrastructure was already located (and is still located).

If that is what they meant, then I would fully agree with that. I would much rather have seen the development all go into Downtown Norman. Of course I also wonder what push back they would have received in the demolition of some of the closer neighborhoods to make room for structures like Target, Embassy Suites, and also building more structures to house the town center style stores. Of course nothing says that it all had to go into Downtown, since I'm sure Embassy would rather be off the interstate and Target would have likely just upgraded their old location on Main.

Okay I can understand that. So then let me ask you, do you currently own and pay property taxes? As a property owner I would rather see a sales tax in place to raise revenues and leave my property taxes alone.

Nope, I currently don't own property and don't pay property taxes. It wouldn't change my opinion on the tax structure though.

I just feel like it's better served to the citizens of the community if the city is focused on creating better valued property in order to receive funds than doing its hardest to bring in as much retail stores as possible, which we know (most of the time) creates ugly commercial development and streetscapes and doesn't necessarily enhance the livability of a city.

EDIT: We have it backwards here. We're focused on getting sales tax dollars (which again, creates a lot of ugly environment) before making the city and streets an attractive place for people. We ugly up one part of the city to fund other things down the road. I'd rather "pretty" up the city first, which will create places where businesses and people WANT to be. (See University Place, WA....re-did a street-scape and it's created tons of development along a corridor. They focused on beautifying a portion of the city first and then it brought in great development. The street's name is Bridgeport Way.)

But again, it's all preference! :)

Well then you are looking at trying to raise money to "pretty up" parts of the city which is either going to be funded through raising sales or property taxes. Perhaps when you get to that that position where you actually own property and send that nice healthy check to the county each December (unless it's bundled with your mortgage of course), then your viewpoint may be a bit different.

I see where you are coming from that better looking property = higher values = higher property taxes paid in. However, if you are wanting all these other items and want to exchange the income for funding them...then you are asking to raise property tax amounts without increasing the values of the properties themselves.

You are right it is all preference, but we have to look at the impacts higher property taxes will also have for businesses and people who are looking to locate here. While it might seem okay to trade out higher sales for property taxes, if you push people away from locating in your city then you aren't going to get anywhere. If they get too high in Norman, nothing is stopping people from setting up in areas that are part of Moore or OKC even though they essentially could be Norman.

Well then you are looking at trying to raise money to "pretty up" parts of the city which is either going to be funded through raising sales or property taxes. Perhaps when you get to that that position where you actually own property and send that nice healthy check to the county each December (unless it's bundled with your mortgage of course), then your viewpoint may be a bit different.

I see where you are coming from that better looking property = higher values = higher property taxes paid in. However, if you are wanting all these other items and want to exchange the income for funding them...then you are asking to raise property tax amounts without increasing the values of the properties themselves.

You are right it is all preference, but we have to look at the impacts higher property taxes will also have for businesses and people who are looking to locate here. While it might seem okay to trade out higher sales for property taxes, if you push people away from locating in your city then you aren't going to get anywhere. If they get too high in Norman, nothing is stopping people from setting up in areas that are part of Moore or OKC even though they essentially could be Norman.


I will disagree with you, so let's agree to disagree :)

I will disagree with you, so let's agree to disagree :)

Sounds good. I use to have similar thoughts as you did, but as you get older and more life experiences stack up things change. I'm going to assume I have at least 10 years on you, so you'll have a lot to learn still. :)

Sounds good. I use to have similar thoughts as you did, but as you get older and more life experiences stack up things change. I'm going to assume I have at least 10 years on you, so you'll have a lot to learn still. :)

Haha. I will say this though...this opinion is definitely not only my own. I have friends/family who are homeowners that share the same sentiments as I do.

Haha. I will say this though...this opinion is definitely not only my own. I have friends/family who are homeowners that share the same sentiments as I do.

It's different for everyone I suppose. We are more in a tax discussion now than UNP, so I'll make this my last comment on the subject. I would much rather see us in a system where we just have a flat sales tax on everything (no property or income taxes) and let everyone decide how they want to spend their money. This then doesn't penalize home and property owners who prefer to get something for our money (versus renting and throwing it away).

This then doesn't penalize home and property owners who prefer to get something for our money (versus renting and throwing it away).

Renters pay property taxes, though indirectly.

here's a thought on an upside to sale taxes, especially if you get a lot of here, spend and then gone people (OKC in general, Norman via OU, etc.) and many, others places:
I believe it is estimated about 1/3 of MAPs3 funds, as well as prior MAPs programs, came from outside non-OKC folk. Let that sink in a moment. Roughly 259 million of the 777 million of MAPs3 come from outside OKC. So, in other words, one could pretend the visitors are covering the convention center costs and OKC folks are covering the rest of MAPs3.

As for renters and property taxes, yeah, renters pay. Same as they pay for the water in rentals that 'include' free water.

Norman kicks a nice kick in the balance seat numerous weekends a year via sales taxes and hotel taxes, and yeah, buddy, y'all come see us more often if ya wanta.

I wouldn't want to see a big tick upward in sales taxes, but there is room for some growth.

Renters pay property taxes, though indirectly.

Of course...but they aren't nearly as exposed to the full front as the property owner. Of course this also goes back to my feeling that renting is throwing money away as you are getting nothing for your dollar.

lets get back to UNP :)

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?

LOL. That article makes me laugh. "there's nothing like it in Oklahoma".

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?

That is what happens when you a pitch a life-style center location to a company and then they see that your life-style center is a strip shopping center - they question what kind of life-style you are living.

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | News OK (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

So I guess its safe to say the advanced manufacturing center and planned office park are dead or on hold again, lol. This is crazy, UNP wil be nothing but a strip mall destination. They also lost the big PETCO deal a few years ago. The City of Norman and the Norman Economic Development Coalition need to get their act together. I mean when was the last time Norman attracted a big time employer?


or not

"An aerospace company will be the first occupant of the manufacturing center, Wood said, bringing 400 new jobs to Norman. An official announcement is expected by the end of October."

or not

"An aerospace company will be the first occupant of the manufacturing center, Wood said, bringing 400 new jobs to Norman. An official announcement is expected by the end of October."

If you notice, that article was written September 2012...the announcement was supposed to happen October 2012.

My point exactly, lol.

lol ... joke is on me

That is what happens when you a pitch a life-style center location to a company and then they see that your life-style center is a strip shopping center - they question what kind of life-style you are living.

Yes, because we know that is how important business decisions are made by responsible companies....how close are the buildings to the street and is it parallel parking... LOL.

AND, we all know that Norman is such an awful place to live.

So, I guess if GE decides to locate in Norman it is BECAUSE of the strip center life style there.

Companies have all kinds of criteria but most of them don't look favorable on the bait and switch tactic. Norman sells the life-style center location but doesn't have a life-style center. So yes, when they say they have a great location in a new life-style center with fountains, and parks, and walkability, and unique architecture, etc... and then the company reps actually see that location and it is an arterial street fronted by giant parking lots with no housing on-site you can bet that creates a bad impression.

Here is a more recent article, those renderings for the office park are at least 7 years old, if I see them again, I am going to puke!

okcBIZ: News: Development: Norman (http://okc.biz/oklahoma/article-6710-record-time.html)

Here is a more recent article, those renderings for the office park are at least 7 years old, if I see them again, I am going to puke!

okcBIZ: News: Development: Norman (http://okc.biz/oklahoma/article-6710-record-time.html)

Even better - instead of life-style center they propose a traditional office park.

Companies have all kinds of criteria but most of them don't look favorable on the bait and switch tactic. Norman sells the life-style center location but doesn't have a life-style center. So yes, when they say they have a great location in a new life-style center with fountains, and parks, and walkability, and unique architecture, etc... and then the company reps actually see that location and it is an arterial street fronted by giant parking lots with no housing on-site you can bet that creates a bad impression.

Yes, of course. They can't use Google Earth or Street View or any of those new fangled things. They just show up and are surprised. No way would they want their company near a slum like UNP. Having Academy Sports nearby with a parking lot ruined the deal.

I think you have lost all objective perspective.

Transportation/Logistics, proximity to educated work force, financial incentives, costs of operations, proximity to intellectual resources, etc., etc. THESE are REAL factors, not some new urbanist manifesto.

If you want to discuss how UNP has violated the new urbanist creed, great. But ascribing all social and economic ills to non conforming shopping areas is more than a stretch.

Say want you Rover - but still no large companies at UNP despite multiple companies coming to take a look. Maybe you can explain what the problem is. After all, Norman is great place to live, good schools, OU near by, but ..... still no companies.

Say want you Rover - but still no large companies at UNP despite multiple companies coming to take a look. Maybe you can explain what the problem is. After all, Norman is great place to live, good schools, OU near by, but ..... still no companies.

Yep. Maybe rover can tell us what happened to the aerospace company or why any of the various other companies that look around decide on other sites?

STILL no website for UNP. It's 2013. Why are Oklahoma businesses so technologically impaired???

Because UNP is crap? Looks like any normal strip mall with an abnormal amount of mattress stores. What's unique?

STILL no website for UNP. It's 2013. Why are Oklahoma businesses so technologically impaired???

Because you still have an older generation running things at the City and NEDC. Until they get some young proffessionals, with a new perspective, and out-of-the-box way of thinking, it will continue to be the same.

Just for comparison - here is the web site for our life-style center here in Jax.

St. Johns Town Center? Mobile Website - Jacksonville, FL 32246-7429 - Simon Malls (http://www.simon.com/mall/st-johns-town-center)

Because you still have an older generation running things at the City and NEDC. Until they get some young proffessionals, with a new perspective, and out-of-the-box way of thinking, it will continue to be the same.

Well we got half of council replaced this last go around, time to get the other half done next year. Granted Lynn Miller isn't exactly young, but thankfully the redneck teabagger is gone.