Suburban living is extremely unhealthy. I live it every day.

I drive to work, the store. To get food. Everything.

I even drive to the park to exercise, even though it is literally across the street (the trail in the park is 200 direct feet from my back door), but the subdivision with it's walls and winding streets places it at a 2 mile round trip jog (just to get to/from) not to mention crossing a 4 lane 45mph city street with no breaks in traffic. I work out at my house, then get in my car, drive a mile to jog 1 1/2 miles around the track, do some pushups, situps, etc., then drive home. Something is wrong with this picture.

If I lived downtown, I would still drive to work (my profession wouldn't work with public transit unless it ran at 3am). But I would be able to walk to the store (assuming we had one), walk to the park, walk to the restaurants, entertainment, etc. Or I could ride a bike to all of those (also exercise). I would cut my automobile usage from 14-18 trips a day I take down to 4 or 5 at the absolute most.

I am a suburbanite and I hate it.

Catch 22, I am trapped in suburbia just as you are and I get sicker of it every day. I about lost it last week when we decided to replace our fence. Nothing makes me madder than having to drive my pickup to get items for my yard, when I don't even want the yard. My wife would probably have to have me sedated if I drove to my work-out. Plus I would love to have back the $5,000 we just spent getting the house painted.

Why would a 5 story apartment building in downtown Norman be out of the question? Why can’t an existing 1 or 2 story building can’t be razed to make way for such an apartment building? Why does downtown Norman, or any historic downtown, have to remain in a perpetual state of suspended development? Who decided downtown Norman shouldn't continue to develop and when did they decide this? Did the Norman City Council pass a resolution that said downtown has developed enough and all new development should occur elsewhere?

You may be interested in what comes of this.


http://newsok.com/discussion-series-is-set-in-norman-on-high-density-housing-projects/article/3681722

Just the facts, if you hate suburban living so much, why not moving into urban apartments? There are options out there.

Homeownership sounds more like your issue though. If you don't enjoy the responsibilty of maintenance that comes with it, there's always the option to rent...or go to an apartment. But if you want the freedom to do with your home what you wish, you also have to take the responsibilty to maintain it. I just replaced a fence in my yard not long ago as well. Can't say I enjoyed putting it back up and i'm about to paint my house on my own as well. It's not fun, but it goes with the territory. I wouldn't give it up to be stuck in any urban living environment though. I enjoy my yard...much more than a greenspace would provide me.

To each his own, but you do choose where you live.

You may be interested in what comes of this.


http://newsok.com/discussion-series-is-set-in-norman-on-high-density-housing-projects/article/3681722

Thanks for that link and I look forward to hearing the outcomes of these meetings. I really wish I was there to attend. 100 units per acre is pretty high and for the city to state that they are getting mutiple requests is very promising.

Just the facts, if you hate suburban living so much, why not moving into urban apartments? There are options out there.

Homeownership sounds more like your issue though. If you don't enjoy the responsibilty of maintenance that comes with it, there's always the option to rent...or go to an apartment. But if you want the freedom to do with your home what you wish, you also have to take the responsibilty to maintain it. I just replaced a fence in my yard not long ago as well. Can't say I enjoyed putting it back up and i'm about to paint my house on my own as well. It's not fun, but it goes with the territory. I wouldn't give it up to be stuck in any urban living environment though. I enjoy my yard...much more than a greenspace would provide me.

To each his own, but you do choose where you live.

I hear what you are saying Bomber and believe me, if I could sell my house I would have done it by now. I had to spend $463 on Monday to replace a broken garage door spring and some other worn out parts. Do you have any idea how much I hate spending 5 Benjamins to open a garage door that houses a car I don't even want :) I did the math awhile back. If we moved to downtown OKC we could live there simply on the money we save by moving there. Think about that for a moment.

On the plus side, we have had two unsolicted inquires to rent our house from people who live in exurbia and can't afford to keep driving back into town for everything.

The new interest in multifamily housing is being driven mainly by economics and not by individual preferences. The new interest in multifamily housing comes primarily from individuals unable to purchase housing because they have a low credit score and/or do not have the 20% down payment necessary to buy a house. Hence, these people are forced into the rental market. That helps explain why Just the Facts received two rental offers on his house. I would further note the demand for multifamily housing is primarily for units with two or more bedrooms. Demand for single bedroom units is low because many young single people (the primary market for one bedroom units) are moving back with their parents instead of renting due to the economy.

The new interest in multifamily housing is being driven mainly by economics and not by individual preferences. The new interest in multifamily housing comes primarily from individuals unable to purchase housing because they have a low credit score and/or do not have the 20% down payment necessary to buy a house. Hence, these people are forced into the rental market. That helps explain why Just the Facts received two rental offers on his house. I would further note the demand for multifamily housing is primarily for units with two or more bedrooms. Demand for single bedroom units is low because many young single people (the primary market for one bedroom units) are moving back with their parents instead of renting due to the economy.

I've always said economics is going to force the issue - and just not on this subject.

...On the plus side, we have had two unsolicted inquires to rent our house from people who live in exurbia and can't afford to keep driving back into town for everything.

If they seem dependable, and if you can sell the missus on it, it would appear a higher power (or dumb luck if someone prefers the notion) may be offering you a door to walk through toward a different path for your life. Then again, maybe they were just trying to case the joint. These things can be tricky sometimes.

If they seem dependable, and if you can sell the missus on it,...

That is the big concern. I am not real fond of putting my eggs in someone elses basket. If they don't come through we would be screwed.

To each his own, but you do choose where you live.

Are you trying to argue that the existing housing stock, the majority of which was built between 1960-1990, easily accommodates alternative options?

Are you trying to argue that the existing housing stock, the majority of which was built between 1960-1990, easily accommodates alternative options?

Wow, you didn't put any feeling into that one huh?

What i'm saying is, there are PLENTY options out there besides owning your own home. And if you don't like the responsibility that goes with it, there are also options around that. That doesn't only mean apartment living, but it certainly is an option.

Sure, we have an abundant supply of most suburban residential models except for condos, which I've always thought were mysteriously absent from Central Oklahoma. Aside from that though, there isn't any way to argue that the urban models are sorely lacking, and I think that's what people were talking about.

The market is not working because we have subsidized suburban sprawl to the point where the existing housing stock is very biased toward suburban models and low balls the true demand for urban models. This means that a lot of people wanting urban models are going to have to suck it up and live in the suburban model housing stock until the market can self correct.

But the main takeaway is that it's completely disingenuous to argue that the market supports individuals living where they want, because actually the overwhelming majority of the housing stock is not in line with changing values, changing lifestyles, and changing styles.

As for feeling, there are no feelings to it. This is a fact-based scenario on the surface that requires no reading between the lines or outside interpretation.

To add tp Spartan's comment, those of us stuck in suburbia and want to move into an urban environment have to wait until we can find a sucker to buy our suburban house.

I want to see a World Market open in UNP.

I want to see a World Market open in UNP.

Something like that would be great. Hopefully the UNP folks are actively trying to find things like this and pull them in.

What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP? Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?

What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP? Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?

Camille's
Apple
Nike
Cheesecake Factory
Another 8 to 10 story hotel.
Ralph Lauren
Whole Foods

What five to ten business would you all like to see open next in UNP? Are there any business concepts that a local business could fill?

Apple
Crate and Barrel
Nordstrom or Saks (I'm dreaming now, of course)
Rugby or Ralph Lauren
Lacoste

Another 8 to 10 story hotel.


last i heard talking to some people at the embassy suites... Hilton is still supposed to be building on the land directly south of the embassy... they said that they were hoping for it to already be started, and they are looking forward to it because they have lost a few conventions they were trying to get because there were not enough hotel room in the immediate area

I'll play to dream, as well.

H&M
Trader Joe's (Yes, I know it's a bad idea with such close proximity to the other grocery stores but I still want one!) :)
The Container Store
Saks
Apple

Sadly I think most or all of these probably fall into the category of fantasy, but you asked....

Einstein Bagels
Dave and Busters
Whole Foods
Freebirds World Burrito
Fry's
Banana Republic
ESPN Zone
Johnny Rockets
In 'n Out Burger
Checkers Drive In
Caribou Coffee
Buca di Beppo
McCormick and Schmicks

A fresh seafood market of any kind....

Any restaurant chain by a famous celebrity chef such as Bobby Flay, Wolfgang Puck, or Emeril Legasse....

i thought that they shut down all the ESPN Zones that were outside of LA and said that they weren't going to expand again... so that one absolutely is a fantasy.

and already had a freebirds in norman, it was ok.

In n' Out Burger may actually be coming to Norman. Last year they looked at Norman, OKC, and Tulsa. For some reason many of the national restaurant chains seem to hit Tulsa several years before they come to Norman or OKC.

Are we getting a Holiday Inn and a Hilton? I thought I recently read that the area south of the Embassy was going to be a Holiday Inn Express?

Are we getting a Holiday Inn and a Hilton? I thought I recently read that the area south of the Embassy was going to be a Holiday Inn Express?

perhaps they said holiday inn and i just heard hilton...

I'd like to see a Pappadeaux in UNP.

Holiday Inn Express by Embassey.

Hilton Garden Inn is west side I-35 frontage, sort of behind that row of eateries between robinson and main.

I'd like to see a Pappadeaux in UNP.

Yes, yes, and more yes.

Yes. Very good chain.

I'd like to see a franchise like Pappadeaux locate on Main Street, instead of this weak project.

I'd like to see a franchise like Pappadeaux locate on Main Street, instead of this weak project.

Think it would look even nicer on 19th in Moore :cool:

Does anybody think Old Navy would come to UNP and close their Sooner Mall location? Not saying it would happen. But I noticed Old Navy seems to be downsizing their stores. I was thinking maybe they would open a smaller store at UNP.

It'll never happen, but there's a cool sushi buffet chain called Todai that would be a great addition. I've eaten at the Dallas location and one of the locations in California. I think the Dallas location has since closed.

DSW Shoes would be a good addition. It seems like they are the only chain that keeps up with modern style and doesn't feel like a children's store. A shame the metro only has one location.

It's very frustrating that chains that are considered 'upscale' are almost never present here, and when they are there's usually just one location in the entire metro. And that we usually get these types of stores a few years after Tulsa.

DSW Shoes would be a good addition. It seems like they are the only chain that keeps up with modern style and doesn't feel like a children's store. A shame the metro only has one location.

It's very frustrating that chains that are considered 'upscale' are almost never present here, and when they are there's usually just one location in the entire metro. And that we usually get these types of stores a few years after Tulsa.

I would love to see a DSW in UNP.

Most of the dream businesses I have seen on this thread are IMO purely a dream.

Does anybody think Old Navy would come to UNP and close their Sooner Mall location? Not saying it would happen. But I noticed Old Navy seems to be downsizing their stores. I was thinking maybe they would open a smaller store at UNP.

All of Sooner Mall just needs to be relocated there. Create a much better concentration of retail to have the foot traffic to make it attractive to higher end retailers everyone wants. Then turn the old Sooner Mall location into high density housing and a business park.

Saw this idea before in this thread. Like it still.

All of Sooner Mall just needs to be relocated there. Create a much better concentration of retail to have the foot traffic to make it attractive to higher end retailers everyone wants. Then turn the old Sooner Mall location into high density housing and a business park.

Why, so UNP can be the Sooner Mall of 2030? A city shouldn't have to be recreated every 20 to 30 years. How about close up UNP and make all the buinesses move to Sooner Mall where all the city infrastructre already exist and is within walking distance of a large number of people. Then use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar from Sooner Mall to downtown Norman and OU - where it can connect to a regional transit system for greater OKC with connecting rail transit to Tulsa.

Why, so UNP can be the Sooner Mall of 2030? A city shouldn't have to be recreated every 20 to 30 years. How about close up UNP and make all the buinesses move to Sooner Mall where all the city infrastructre already exist and is within walking distance of a large number of people. Then use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar from Sooner Mall to downtown Norman and OU - where it can connect to a regional transit system for greater OKC with connecting rail transit to Tulsa.

Sooner Mall can't grow where it is. Physically it could always grow up I guess, but the infrastructure that already exists cannot handle the traffic in this area to make for a pleasant experience. The service road and mall roads are just poorly planned out and can make for a frustrating, and sometimes dangerous, experience when trying to exit mall property onto Main Street. Not to mention you have exiting interstate traffic merging in right as people are trying to go into the Mall.

Cities are recreated and re-purposed all the time. Bricktown is a testament to that, unless you are against that whole redevelopment project. The infrastructure is already in place now in UNP. The roads, utilities, and a new improved access ramp to I-35. So that is a non-issue since the layout is superior to the crammed in nature of Sooner Mall.

I don't get the "use the money saved on building improvements around UNP to build a streetcar" statement. That is just silly since the money being spent there now is mostly being done by the developers and business moving in, not the city. I would like to see a street car system involving UNP/Campus/Downtown/South Norman but that funding would come from a different source. Of course connecting to a light rail system to OKC won't happen until they get serious about wanting to do it.

I don't see why UNP and Sooner Mall can't coexist peacefully. If UNP could ever get its act together and truly design a lifestyle complex and lure top retail outlets, there would not be a problem. Sooner Mall can continue being the low to mid range stores (JCP, Sears, Old Navy types) and allow UNP to have the higher end ones such as Dillards, Nordstrom (I can always dream), Anthropology, Urban, and Banana Republic as a few simple examples. Of course UNP would have to lure many higher end stores that are seen elsewhere.

I mean if Columbus can support a center like this, then I truly do not understand why we wouldn't be able to do so.
http://www.eastontowncenter.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easton_Town_Center

If the money spent at UNP had been applied to Sooner Mall then Norman would be way ahead of the game. As for bad traffic at Sooner Mall, what do you think UNP is going to be like in the future. Everyone going to UNP has to drive to get there. If you want to get rid of traffic get rid of the reason for traffic and provide alternatives to driving. Otherwise you are just moving the problem around, which cost money.

sooner mall is in very good shape and didn't need the money that was spend at UNP

If the money spent at UNP had been applied to Sooner Mall then Norman would be way ahead of the game. As for bad traffic at Sooner Mall, what do you think UNP is going to be like in the future. Everyone going to UNP has to drive to get there. If you want to get rid of traffic get rid of the reason for traffic and provide alternatives to driving. Otherwise you are just moving the problem around, which cost money.

who said anything about UNP being built to get rid of traffic???? UNP was built to try and turn a bit of land that wasn't being used into a development area for businesses to come in and provide a new shopping area.

I remember before UNP ever broke ground all the rumors surrounding it. First we heard it was going to be the 5th largest mall in the country - something to create a real draw. Then we were told that it was going to be upscale shopping with a lifestyle center. I had high hopes for this development as everyone did. I jumped off the bandwagon when they started putting in run-of-the-mill stores. I was told by many on here to just be patient.

Well I've been patient. I drove by there just a couple of weeks ago and saw a tires plus. The businesses going in there are getting worse not better. What does that make? The third or fourth tire store in a two mile stretch? I believe I saw a nail salon in UNP at one point in time. Don't know if it's still there as that was quite a while ago. We've been sold a false bill of goods. The powers that be took a good parcel of land that could've have been something special and screwed it up. There's nothing in UNP that you can't get at any other strip mall in the greater metro area.

Just an upscale version of Choctaw's Town Center which will have a Wal-Mart. Funny how suburban developers use urbanism to attract public support, but then strip it out before it is built. Just think how popular these developments would be if they were urban in any possible way.

Have you been to Legacy Town just south of IKEA in Dallas? That place is amazingly urban. The have a bunch of ethnic restaurants, hotels, apartments, movie theater, and other services all in an urban environment. I stayed with a friend there and spent one day just hanging out in the little urban area.

If Dallas can do it, so can Norman and suburban OKC! We just need new developers that aren't stuck in the 70s and 80s and city council members that will stand up for what is promised as well as zoning laws that don't bend.

Easton Town Center in Columbus, OH. Just sayin.

Easton Town Center in Columbus, OH. Just sayin.

This place, for a lifestyle center, is quite nice.

Looks like UNP is gaining momentum:

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

Moreover, I am glad for the improved transparency between the NEDC and the public. I wonder what aerospace company is brininging 400 jobs to Norman? These new jobs will be a game changer for Norman.

I wondered about the jobs hint as well. Says we should know by the end of October, but someone's got to know something already. Maybe Traber's Colostomy? He/She seems to be in the know...

Sounds great!

I was just discussing about how, outside of York, there is very little industry in Cleveland County relative to their population. I hope the company moving in isn't some company from another part of OKC.

The newsok.com article also states that HomeGoods and DSW are coming to the UNP. The wife is very happy.

All around some pretty good news finally coming out of UNP. The business park is going to be a huge catalyst I have a feeling. Would like to see them rebuild Rwy 17/35 to be the standard 150 ft width and around 8000 ft long. It would allow it to handle corporate traffic that needs the extra length to make longer distance flights, permit larger corporate jets, and also allow charter aircraft for OU games to go directly to Norman instead of KOKC. It also opens the doors for more aerospace growth and the ability for OU to entertain expanding is Aviation school.

The entire runway expansion can easily fit into the existing airport footprint without having to do anything to Robinson or Flood. The biggest change might be putting power lines underground around the airport.

Venture, have you heard anything about who this aviation company is that is supposedly coming to UNP?

All around some pretty good news finally coming out of UNP. The business park is going to be a huge catalyst I have a feeling. Would like to see them rebuild Rwy 17/35 to be the standard 150 ft width and around 8000 ft long. It would allow it to handle corporate traffic that needs the extra length to make longer distance flights, permit larger corporate jets, and also allow charter aircraft for OU games to go directly to Norman instead of KOKC. It also opens the doors for more aerospace growth and the ability for OU to entertain expanding is Aviation school.

The entire runway expansion can easily fit into the existing airport footprint without having to do anything to Robinson or Flood. The biggest change might be putting power lines underground around the airport.

I don't know if a runway that long is even required at OUN. Larger corporate jets like the Gulfstream V can easily land/takeoff at OUN even today. Heck, there's one company that has even flown in one of its Dornier 328-100 turboprops, and that'sa full-size 32-seat passenger airplane (I've seen it landing there). Most corporate aircraft can safely operate with 5,200 feet of runway at OUN even when fully loaded (most like the Citations and Learjets don't even need 5,000 feet most of the time). Even three-engined Dassault Falcons can land and takeoff there. Unless you're talking about something like the Bombardier Global Express or the Lineage 1000 from Embraer (or the BBJ/ACJ types), but even they can do well with a runway length of 6,500 feet, which is much more probable for 17-35. Don't get me wrong, I would be pretty excited myself if a runway 8,000 feet long was present at OUN, just that I don't see the need for it given what types of aircraft regularly operate to/from the airfield.

Just my 2c. worth. :)

I don't know if a runway that long is even required at OUN. Larger corporate jets like the Gulfstream V can easily land/takeoff at OUN even today. Heck, there's one company that has even flown in one of its Dornier 328-100 turboprops, and that'sa full-size 32-seat passenger airplane (I've seen it landing there). Most corporate aircraft can safely operate with 5,200 feet of runway at OUN even when fully loaded (most like the Citations and Learjets don't even need 5,000 feet most of the time). Even three-engined Dassault Falcons can land and takeoff there. Unless you're talking about something like the Bombardier Global Express or the Lineage 1000 from Embraer (or the BBJ/ACJ types), but even they can do well with a runway length of 6,500 feet, which is much more probable for 17-35. Don't get me wrong, I would be pretty excited myself if a runway 8,000 feet long was present at OUN, just that I don't see the need for it given what types of aircraft regularly operate to/from the airfield.

Just my 2c. worth. :)

We've also had the Embraer 145 at OUN before, but I doubt it was full. Yeah I was thinking thelarger Global Exp and the BBJ/ACJ jets if every needed. The reason I said 8000 feet is thanks to our summers here, aircraft would need some extra room to run under hot conditions. However during the winter it wouldn't be an issue. Heck I've seen a fully loaded 727 hauling cargo take off from a 5300' runway. Then of course there is Midway and their short runways. However those two places rarely get very hot like OK.

I'm more looking 10 years down the road though as the business park matures.

Approval by Council of new business park development and potential aerospace component. This on top of Legacy Park/drive construction work on 24th and recent openings of Valiance Bank, Chipotle, Starbucks, GNC, among other stores.

Legacy Park moves forward » Headlines » The Norman Transcript (http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x1133189973/Legacy-Park-moves-forward)

I would love to see a DSW in UNP.

In case you didn't see it in GWalker's post, you get your wish... DSW is coming to UNP:

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

A HomeGoods is also coming to UNP. Several new stores have already recently opened including Starbucks, GNC, Chipotle, EarthFruits Yogurt (I think), and Weight Watchers.

The newest development actually has a nice modern look to it, especially the new bank. I'll try to take some pictures of it soon.

In case you didn't see it in GWalker's post, you get your wish... DSW is coming to UNP:

Projects at Norman's University North Park extend beyond retail | NewsOK.com (http://newsok.com/projects-at-normans-university-north-park-extend-beyond-retail/article/3713339)

A HomeGoods is also coming to UNP. Several new stores have already recently opened including Starbucks, GNC, Chipotle, EarthFruits Yogurt (I think), and Weight Watchers.

The newest development actually has a nice modern look to it, especially the new bank. I'll try to take some pictures of it soon.

Article says announcement of those 400 new jobs to be announced by end of October? So maybe we'll hear something by Wednesday. I'm curious as to who it is.

Looks like they are finally moving forward with Legacy Park, office park, and advanced manufacturing center, good deal:

Legacy Park moves forward » Local news » The Norman Transcript (http://normantranscript.com/local/x1133189973/Legacy-Park-moves-forward?mobRedir=false)