So you claim OU was created because Norman incorporated.

This whole argument has officially gotten childish.

No such claim was made. Go back and read what I responded to and then read my response. Good grief.
Get a grip man.

Coping by bashing Normanites because they dont want to bail out OU with a costly subsidized arena is quite hilarious to me. Maybe take the crimson shaded glasses off for a second and step back and wonder if Norman is really going to get $600 million returned in any way from a small college arena. Most rightly see that they wont, the promises are shaky, the costs are too high and why should they be responsible for OU's decades of inaction on Lloyd Noble or an on campus alternative.
Norman would make it money back quickly within a few years from the sales tax that it brings in. Then they can put money towards other projects that need done all over the city.

Lol, No, it HASN'T.
Norman incorporated 5.13.1891
First classes held at O.U., Sept.1892

OU was founded in 1890 ...

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the city the guarantor on the bond payments? So if the TIF doesn't bring in enough money to pay the bonds the city has to pick it up. I think the original proposal didn't spell out who would actually own the arena but the city would be responsible for the maintenance, staff, utilities and what not?

they would not have been

"On December 19, 1890, the first territorial legislature, following its practice of parceling out state institutions on the basis of coalition politics, placed the University of Oklahoma (OU) in Norman. The legislature stipulated that the town donate forty acres for a campus and raise ten thousand dollars through bond sales to construct a building. The town, sensing the enormous economic benefits that would result, complied with the requirements on December 14, 1891. Before the money was raised, Gov. George Steele appointed a six-member board of regents to administer the institution."

Source:https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry?entry=UN010

Note that the first students and David Ross Boyd did not arrive to Norman until 1892.

I think its fair to say OU and Norman were functionally found/created at the same time.

OU was founded in 1890 ...

Lol, Norman founded April 22, 1889.
Your claim of OU existing before Norman("...Norman has Never existed before OU") is utter nonsense.

so back to the fact that this won't actually cost the city anything, except concession sales tax on some 40 events... what are the other problems people have with this? oh that's right, they think if we cause it to fail, all of these developments will still just magically happen, even though they haven't for the past 2 decades
UNP didnt even exist 20 years ago and look how its become a massive shopping complex over that time, all somehow without a small college arena. Guess it magically happened.


Norman would make it money back quickly within a few years from the sales tax that it brings in. Then they can put money towards other projects that need done all over the city.
$600 million will be repaid back quickly from this TIF district? A billion dollars worth of real estate will only bring in $10 million per year. A well performing walmart will bring in maybe $5 mil/year. To pay back the $600 mil isnt going to happen quickly, if at all. And if not, someone is left on the hook. Maybe below Boulder can answer.


they would not have been
So who is the owner of the arena and guarantor of the bonds?

UNP didnt even exist 20 years ago and look how its become a massive shopping complex over that time, all somehow without a small college arena. Guess it magically happened.


my bad... may of 2006. so 18 and a half years.... and if you call that a massive shopping complex, then you and i sure think differently. in 18 years, it's basically 3 anchor stores in Crest, Target, and Academy, and then a bunch of stuff has come an gone. and lets not forget that over half of the area is still undeveloped after 18 and a half years, and that we are just now seeing some infill. This place should have been packed with no space left 10 years ago.

my bad... may of 2006. so 18 and a half years.... and if you call that a massive shopping complex, then you and i sure think differently. in 18 years, it's basically 3 anchor stores in Crest, Target, and Academy, and then a bunch of stuff has come an gone. and lets not forget that over half of the area is still undeveloped after 18 and a half years, and that we are just now seeing some infill. This place should have been packed with no space left 10 years ago.

We do think differently, and for good reason. Cell phone data shows that UNP is the most visited shopping center in the entire state. Main Event and Sephora are coming, both of which will drive lots of additional traffic. And all of this is happening without a small college arena, which are famously not known to be a driver of hundreds of thousands of square feet of retail, thousands of living units, nor do they have recent college grads asking themselves "why move to OKC or Dallas when I can stay in Norman because of this 8,000 seat college arena?!"

my bad... may of 2006. so 18 and a half years.... and if you call that a massive shopping complex, then you and i sure think differently. in 18 years, it's basically 3 anchor stores in Crest, Target, and Academy, and then a bunch of stuff has come an gone. and lets not forget that over half of the area is still undeveloped after 18 and a half years, and that we are just now seeing some infill. This place should have been packed with no space left 10 years ago.

Norman has excess retail now according to the developers for Moore farms on 36th SW.
OU and the developers are free to use their lines of credit and build what they will on their land. Keep Norman finances out of this speculative venture.
As far as the arena, tap BMD donors like Hamm and Bennett and put their name on it.

Lol, Norman founded April 22, 1889.
Your claim of OU existing before Norman("...Norman has Never existed before OU") is utter nonsense.

reading is hard i know .. . but good for you ..

Admitting I am wrong is hard i know .. . but good for you ..

Fify

Lol, No, it HASN'T.
Norman incorporated 5.13.1891



Lol, Norman founded April 22, 1889.
Your claim of OU existing before Norman("...Norman has Never existed before OU") is utter nonsense.

lol you are the one that seems to be confused ..

lol you are the one that seems to be confused ..

Per George Bernard Shaw. You like getting dirty so I won't stoop to your foolish statements as I don't like to get dirty

RE: challenge of TIF petitions and hearing schedule.
SCHEDULING ORDER / JV / IN RE: CASE TO BE HEARD FEBRUARY 19, 2025 AND 2-25, 2025 BEGINNING AT 9:00 A.M. EACH DAY

Entertainment district vote to be delayed by court hearing | News | oudaily.com
https://www.oudaily.com/news/norman-ou-rock-creek-entertainment-district-vote-delay-court-hearing-petition-university-north-park/article_1f1058e4-b993-11ef-8bc1-6f7aa6d97a34.html

lol the people saying that this isn't because people in norman hate OU but then this is said


Arcaroli said while the university is not named in the lawsuit, he believes they are involved.

lol the people saying that this isn't because people in norman hate OU but then this is said

Arcaroli said while the university is not named in the lawsuit, he believes they are involved.

How does this show Norman hates OU? Hes just saying he thinks OU is involved in this legal maneuver. You seriously dont think OU has been behind the scenes in any of the machinations of this? You dont think the 4 citizens who are protesting the signatures have had zero communications or contact with university officials? I think you're being a little dense here.

Arcaroli said while the university is not named in the lawsuit, he believes they are involved.

How does this show Norman hates OU? Hes just saying he thinks OU is involved in this legal maneuver. You seriously dont think OU has been behind the scenes in any of the machinations of this? You dont think the 4 citizens who are protesting the signatures have had zero communications or contact with university officials? I think you're being a little dense here.

you all seem to think that these developments are just going to happen without the tif district, and without the arena, but the 4 people who are protesting the signatures are the major developers of the project. people have said on here that even if the arena isn't going to be built, that these same developers are just going to go ahead with their plans.... I think you are being a little dense here.

lol the people saying that this isn't because people in norman hate OU but then this is said
People don't hate OU, Just a lot of NIMBYS that don't want anything that would benefit the city

PF Changs has its building permit. https://www.normanok.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2024-12/NOVEMBER%202024%20COMMERCIAL%20COMBINED%20REPORT.p df

Main event has started vertical construction

PF Changs has its building permit. https://www.normanok.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2024-12/NOVEMBER%202024%20COMMERCIAL%20COMBINED%20REPORT.p df

Dirt work currently underway.

PF Changs has its building permit. https://www.normanok.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2024-12/NOVEMBER%202024%20COMMERCIAL%20COMBINED%20REPORT.p df

Dirt work currently underway.

Should have compared it with Guthrie...

But its moot because Norman doesnt exist without OU and OU doesnt exist without Norman.

Sure OU could have been founded in a different spot but a town is still going to pop up around to support the university. Its a symbiotic relationship which is probably more in Normans favor now with the growth of OKC and less of a reliance on OU.

Did you know that when Norman was founded, there was a university within city limits that wasn't OU? The Methodist Church had built a university and had plans to grow it to be a major private institution. OU saw it as competition, and had a friendly negotiation with the church and in the end the private university agreed to move elsewhere. What used to be the private university eventually became the large sprawling mental health campus on the east side. It has been a long time since I read through Oklahoma history, but I believe the university donated the land north of OU at the time to the church and in turn they built McFarlin on that land.

So somewhere out there in a parallel quantum reality Norman is a thriving town with a university that is not OU.

Did you know that when Norman was founded, there was a university within city limits that wasn't OU? The Methodist Church had built a university and had plans to grow it to be a major private institution. OU saw it as competition, and had a friendly negotiation with the church and in the end the private university agreed to move elsewhere. What used to be the private university eventually became the large sprawling mental health campus on the east side. It has been a long time since I read through Oklahoma history, but I believe the university donated the land north of OU at the time to the church and in turn they built McFarlin on that land.

So somewhere out there in a parallel quantum reality Norman is a thriving town with a university that is not OU.

that's really cool... i learned something new today.

https://www.okhistory.org/publications/enc/entry?entry=HI002

Did you know that when Norman was founded, there was a university within city limits that wasn't OU? The Methodist Church had built a university and had plans to grow it to be a major private institution. OU saw it as competition, and had a friendly negotiation with the church and in the end the private university agreed to move elsewhere. What used to be the private university eventually became the large sprawling mental health campus on the east side. It has been a long time since I read through Oklahoma history, but I believe the university donated the land north of OU at the time to the church and in turn they built McFarlin on that land.

So somewhere out there in a parallel quantum reality Norman is a thriving town with a university that is not OU.

Fascinating.

Hearing the Five Below/Sephora building just north of Crest will start construction the week of January 13th. I would imagine Hobby Lobby and Mardel would be around the same time.

Someone tell me if Im missing anything but thats PF Changs, Sephora, Five Below, Main Event, Hobby Lobby and Mardel all happening without an arena. Which tells me development is still happening organically and hundreds of millions of dollars for an arena isnt necessary for development to continue to happen.

Someone tell me if Im missing anything but thats PF Changs, Sephora, Five Below, Main Event, Hobby Lobby and Mardel all happening without an arena. Which tells me development is still happening organically and hundreds of millions of dollars for an arena isnt necessary for development to continue to happen.

And it only took 15 years for a Hobby Lobby to open here.

It will take another 45 for the arena are to fill up, with more crappy strip centers and mid-scale retailers that aren't unique at all.

Again, any use versus highest use is the issue. These stores, aside from Main Event, have all been in. Norman, and are either relocating or opening a second location. Not exactly inspiring confidence for proper or expedient development of the arena area.

And it only took 15 years for a Hobby Lobby to open here.

It will take another 45 for the arena are to fill up, with more crappy strip centers and mid-scale retailers that aren't unique at all.

Again, any use versus highest use is the issue. These stores, aside from Main Event, have all been in. Norman, and are either relocating or opening a second location. Not exactly inspiring confidence for proper or expedient development of the arena area.

Funny that you think an arena would have any effect on bringing a Hobby Lobby, or high end retailers.

And you are wrong. Its not just Main Event, but PF Changs, Five Below, and a stand alone Sephora are all new to Norman. They arent relocating or opening a second store, these are all new to Norman. I also like how you basically are calling UNP crappy strip center. Usually things like The Ranch, Red Rock Grill, PF Changs, Sephora arent in crappy centers.

Funny that you think an arena would have any effect on bringing a Hobby Lobby, or high end retailers.

And you are wrong. Its not just Main Event, but PF Changs, Five Below, and a stand alone Sephora are all new to Norman. They arent relocating or opening a second store, these are all new to Norman. I also like how you basically are calling UNP crappy strip center. Usually things like The Ranch, Red Rock Grill, PF Changs, Sephora arent in crappy centers.

Sephora and PF Chang's go in everywhere. Red Rock is local to Norman. The Ranch is also OKC local. It isn't like there are a bunch of forward thinking national retailers being drawn to UNP right now. UNP needs some "juice".

I think all these "it's all about me and what I want" posts are entertaining. People on this site tend to completely ignore what most Oklahomans want and complain if they don't get exactly what they think we should have. I guess it's a good time-waster between Pete's factual posts.

Funny that you think an arena would have any effect on bringing a Hobby Lobby

you are right. all it took for hobby lobby was for the landlord of the original target location to just price them out... guess that is how we will grow UNP, just have all the landlords of other places already in norman make bad business decisions.

I think all these "it's all about me and what I want" posts are entertaining. People on this site tend to completely ignore what most Oklahomans want and complain if they don't get exactly what they think we should have. I guess it's a good time-waster between Pete's factual posts.

I know how out of touch I am. We had a poll at my wife's office to get a gift card for an xmas prize. We asked everyone what their favorite local place to eat was. Out of 55 people the most voted one was Red Lobster with second being Chilis. I realized I am not in the same mind space as most Oklahomans.

you are right. all it took for hobby lobby was for the landlord of the original target location to just price them out... guess that is how we will grow UNP, just have all the landlords of other places already in norman make bad business decisions.

If that is really the case then that owner is an idiot.

If that is really the case then that owner is an idiot.

i mean look at all of campus corner.... or Ed Nobel Parkway... most of the land owners in Norman fall into this category.

I think all these "it's all about me and what I want" posts are entertaining. People on this site tend to completely ignore what most Oklahomans want and complain if they don't get exactly what they think we should have. I guess it's a good time-waster between Pete's factual posts.

What do people want? They are probably getting 95% of what is found at the average power center across the nation. The other 5% of the top tier stores are extremely hard to get. The case being made is that an arena will bring those top retailers in. I would love to see if that was the case, but I don't think Norman will let the proposal go that far.

Before the soccer stadium as announced, people kept pitching a stadium(or a temporary one) for Chisolm Creek. That's a development that has been hit with even more of a slowdown than UNP.

Sephora and PF Chang's go in everywhere. Red Rock is local to Norman. The Ranch is also OKC local. It isn't like there are a bunch of forward thinking national retailers being drawn to UNP right now. UNP needs some "juice".

Feels like you are moving the goal posts now. It doesnt matter if theres locations in OKC proper or if theyre locally based businesses, we are talking about inside of Norman city limits and what brings them sales tax dollars and ad valorem to the schools and county. And what is a forward thinking retailer? You are too dismissive of the the above mentioned retailers. Sephora and PF Changs do not go everywhere, theyre typically are found in class A centers. Red Rock and The Ranch are two of the nicest dining establishments in the city. And all of them have very strong sales numbers and they bring in lots of revenue for the city.

Seems like UNP already has quite a bit of juice at the moment on its own. Throw in some apartments, which just naturally fits here (arena not necessary for them) and UNP will continue to cook.

What do people want? They are probably getting 95% of what is found at the average power center across the nation. The other 5% of the top tier stores are extremely hard to get. The case being made is that an arena will bring those top retailers in. I would love to see if that was the case, but I don't think Norman will let the proposal go that far.


Its kind of laughable to think the most desired nice retailers will come to UNP because there is an arena. An arena wont even be in their calculus. It ill be demographics, traffic, current anchor tenants, established sales numbers of UNP retailers and restaurants. Cheesecake Factory or Lululemon could care less about a college arena.

Its kind of laughable to think the most desired nice retailers will come to UNP because there is an arena. An arena wont even be in their calculus. It ill be demographics, traffic, current anchor tenants, established sales numbers of UNP retailers and restaurants. Cheesecake Factory or Lululemon could care less about a college arena.

translation " it's kind of laughable to think that retailers will come to UNP because of something that generates traffic. the thing that helps generate traffic won't even be in their calculations. It will be things that generate traffic."

translation " it's kind of laughable to think that retailers will come to UNP because of something that generates traffic. the thing that helps generate traffic won't even be in their calculations. It will be things that generate traffic."

Isn't it the second most trafficked retail area in the state behind Penn Square Mall? I'd say if those stores aren't in that area already then an arena would not change that.

Isn't it the second most trafficked retail area in the state behind Penn Square Mall? I'd say if those stores aren't in that area already then an arena would not change that.

so adding more traffic wouldn't change that? interesting take..... like you do know that even if you are the most trafficked area, it's possible to increase the amount of traffic? it's not a ceiling that you can't go higher than.....

so adding more traffic wouldn't change that? interesting take..... like you do know that even if you are the most trafficked area, it's possible to increase the amount of traffic? it's not a ceiling that you can't go higher than.....

My point is, if the traffic is already the second highest in the state, adding more doesn't increase the odds. I would assume they don't come to UNP for other reasons.

My point is, if the traffic is already the second highest in the state, adding more doesn't increase the odds. I would assume they don't come to UNP for other reasons.

it absolutely increases the odds.... when these retailers ask for traffic numbers, they don't care if it's the first highest, or 70th heights, they care about the total number of people there, nothing else.

i mean you said it right there, they aren't coming because it's the second highest... it's another reason, and that reason is that even though it's second heights, it's not enough traffic. this really isn't that difficult.

My point is, if the traffic is already the second highest in the state, adding more doesn't increase the odds. I would assume they don't come to UNP for other reasons.

I mean this kinda feels like saying that inserting 18,000 people into downtown 43+ nights per year doesn’t increase the odds that someone will open a restaurant downtown due to the fact that a lot of people work down there from 8-5 every day. If you do something that adds a huge influx of people, of course it will increase the odds of businesses deciding to locate there.

A lot of businesses require a minimum traffic count to even consider a location... that's in absolute numbers (e.g. 20k/day... each business model is different), not relative numbers (e.g. 2nd busiest in area... 2nd busiest area could still be very low absolute numbers). The median/average income also plays a factor. Even with high traffic rates, you aren't putting a retail store designed for the top 1% of income earners in a concentrated area of bottom 25% income earners. There are several other factors in the equation also. I haven't lived in Norman since the 1990's, so I can't really say much about this specific area without research that I don't have time for.

it absolutely increases the odds.... when these retailers ask for traffic numbers, they don't care if it's the first highest, or 70th heights, they care about the total number of people there, nothing else.

i mean you said it right there, they aren't coming because it's the second highest... it's another reason, and that reason is that even though it's second heights, it's not enough traffic. this really isn't that difficult.

Traffic is just one input, and its daily average traffic that they look at. This arena will hardly move that number when it'll be one event every 5 days and this event only brings a couple thousand people on average. Not to mention many of the events are in the evening when people arent buying Lululemon yoga pants. And when it comes to dining, not a ton of people are dining out before or after college basketball games. Its completely incomparable to an NBA arena that PhiAlpha made above.

Traffic is just one input, and its daily average traffic that they look at. This arena will hardly move that number when it'll be one event every 5 days and this event only brings a couple thousand people on average. Not to mention many of the events are in the evening when people arent buying Lululemon yoga pants. And when it comes to dining, not a ton of people are dining out before or after college basketball games. Its completely incomparable to an NBA arena that PhiAlpha made above.

Arena's are big draws for entertainment areas. Fans love immersive experiences and having life around the arena. The days of planning an arena in the middle of nowhere to have a big sea of parking around it are dead. Real estate near the arena has additional value. It's happening all over the country. Norman can get with it or get left behind.

Norman being sued by UNP developer for $5M.
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/developer-sues-norman-over-5m-in-tif-funds/article_47f463a2-d84e-11ef-a90c-0f1c5a90ee97.html

Norman being sued by UNP developer for $5M.
https://www.normantranscript.com/news/developer-sues-norman-over-5m-in-tif-funds/article_47f463a2-d84e-11ef-a90c-0f1c5a90ee97.html

would love to know what the geniuses in norman city gov .. think Main event is duplicating

would love to know what the geniuses in norman city gov .. think Main event is duplicating

I'd guess HeyDay. It's pretty much the same thing.

What's the lawsuit about? I don't have access to that article.

nvm. Found the article.

I'd guess HeyDay. It's pretty much the same thing.

They wouldn't be wrong. I guess it depends on how exactly the contract is written.

Isn't this the same developer the TIF proponents want to trust $600M with?
Great idea

Isn't this the same developer the TIF proponents want to trust $600M with?
Great idea

Comparing apples to hand grenades. Seems mature.

Isn't this the same developer the TIF proponents want to trust $600M with?
Great idea

The Norman Transcript published a correction on misnaming the party suing. Rainer is not involved as previously reported. This article in the OU Daily corrected the party, as well as providing more detail.
Norman town center owner sues city for withholding TIF funds | News | oudaily.com
https://www.oudaily.com/news/norman-university-north-park-tif-town-center-mall-lawsuit-development-project-main-event/article_a441dc00-d90e-11ef-8319-e361b4c415b5.html

Apples and oranges, but it does remind me of the Cabela's deal OKC made. OKC paid for something new and different, then a couple of years later Bass Pro bought them out. Cabela's is only "kind of different" from Bass Pro.