much more likely they get moore to build this or Mcclain county
Wrong.

Wrong.

Moore is very much a possibility ... if Norman falls through ( that said i think there is a good chance this passes at council in july) ..

Dirt Work starting where the main event is supposed to go

much more likely they get moore to build this or Mcclain county

Given how many normanites plan to vote no I wouldn't be surprised. If it gets built in McClain county I would assume it would happen in Noble or Goldsby

Given how many normanites plan to vote no I wouldn't be surprised. If it gets built in McClain county I would assume it would happen in Noble or Goldsby

or near a certain casino

or near a certain casino

They want more people to attend from OKC and parts north, so they put it at Riverwind? lol

They want more people to attend from OKC and parts north, so they put it at Riverwind? lol

no they WANT it in north norman ..

but they NEED it to be paid for mostly by someone else ..

We don't even know if the Chickasaws would even see that as a good investment. South Moore seems a little more likely(still low) just because there is a future new turnpike that may open up more of the southern parts of the metro.

Does OU own the land in Moore they could build this on? The plan in UNP hinges on OU owning that land, correct? So building in Moore would cost even more than this plan. I don't see Moore residents clamoring for that either.

Does OU own the land in Moore they could build this on? The plan in UNP hinges on OU owning that land, correct? So building in Moore would cost even more than this plan. I don't see Moore residents clamoring for that either.

the OU foundation does own the land ... moore is very very aggressive with tax incentives ... which is why they have gotten so much retail at the expense of norman

the OU foundation does own the land ... moore is very very aggressive with tax incentives ... which is why they have gotten so much retail at the expense of norman

I guess we will see if Moore wants to spend the money. I have doubts. I still think it is in UNP or they go on with Lloyd Noble until it is condemned.

I guess we will see if Moore wants to spend the money. I have doubts. I still think it is in UNP or they go on with Lloyd Noble until it is condemned.

I still think UNP will be approved in July ... after the new council is seated

the OU foundation does own the land ... moore is very very aggressive with tax incentives ... which is why they have gotten so much retail at the expense of norman

Theres a difference between a couple million in TIF incentives for a costco or something and $300 million or more for an arena that is unkown how much it will actually help Moore. You know a costco will do $100 million annually in sales, you really have no idea what an arena will attract in terms of sales taxes and ad valorem. College arenas arent hotbed for pre and post game dining and shopping like NBA arenas. I serously doubt Moore would step in if Norman says no.

I believe the mayor will ram this through a city council predisposed to this plan.
However I also believe there will be a vigorous effort to put a binding vote of the people on the ballot. This effort will take a 6k signature petition drive.
It should be noted that the mayor with the strong backing of OG&E attempted to get a bad for the City 25 year franchise agreement. Though the mayor and corporate interests favored it, they lost. Should a binding election on the TIFs gets on the ballot it is anyones guess on the outcome.

the OU foundation does own the land ... moore is very very aggressive with tax incentives ... which is why they have gotten so much retail at the expense of norman

Where is this land at

Where is this land at

UNP. OU Foundation owns the land they want to build the arena on.

I believe the mayor will ram this through a city council predisposed to this plan.
However I also believe there will be a vigorous effort to put a binding vote of the people on the ballot. This effort will take a 6k signature petition drive.
It should be noted that the mayor with the strong backing of OG&E attempted to get a bad for the City 25 year franchise agreement. Though the mayor and corporate interests favored it, they lost. Should a binding election on the TIFs gets on the ballot it is anyones guess on the outcome.

And you will be stuck with an empty 100 acres, owned by the OU Foundation, getting no sales tax and minimal property tax, since it is empty land. Really benefits Norman.

Cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

And you will be stuck with an empty 100 acres, owned by the OU Foundation, getting no sales tax and minimal property tax, since it is empty land. Really benefits Norman.

Cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

I appreciate your concern for Norman's economic health but we will be fine if the TIF is voided at the ballot box.

http://www.ou.edu/insideou/articles/norman-financial-situation.html#:~:text=The%20Norman%20campus%20has %20close,construction%20on%20the%20Norman%20campus

Here is why OU won't be getting a new arena anytime soon if this doesn't happen. It goes all the way back to Boren spending like crazy. Galloway got crapped on for being a penny-pincher. Now we know why.

Moore says no thank you, FYI. And that would be terrible. If we don't like it being off campus, having the kids have to go to the next town over is even worse. What a recruiting nightmare. Can you imagine someone trying to recruit and saying, hold on, lets get in the car and drive 10 miles from where LNC is, to go look at the arena? No way man. And as someone in Moore, there is zero interest for us to pay to build an arena with no purpose. Again, no thank you. If Norman wants to build this thing, they're welcome to do it themselves.

And as someone in Moore, there is zero interest for us to pay to build an arena with no purpose. Again, no thank you. I.

the powers that be in moore don't feel this way ..

I appreciate your concern for Norman's economic health but we will be fine if the TIF is voided at the ballot box.

there is no vote to void this TIF at the ballot box

http://www.ou.edu/insideou/articles/norman-financial-situation.html#:~:text=The%20Norman%20campus%20has %20close,construction%20on%20the%20Norman%20campus

Here is why OU won't be getting a new arena anytime soon if this doesn't happen. It goes all the way back to Boren spending like crazy. Galloway got crapped on for being a penny-pincher. Now we know why.

Do you have any documents that aren’t from 5 years ago? Gallogly hasn’t been OU’s president since 2019.

Where would Moore even put it? Next to Costco? They don't have much space left in their city limits.

Do you have any documents that aren’t from 5 years ago? Gallogly hasn’t been OU’s president since 2019.

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

https://www.oudaily.com/news/higher-education-college-degree-value-oklahoma-ou/article_b7fa8e28-8256-11ee-865c-47ba81ca4381.html

A 2022 College Board reported that Oklahoma was first among all states slashing state funding of full time students by 29%. The country as a whole increased funding by 25%.
The State needs to be responsible for their own physical plants, not municipalities.

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

OU has a bad credit rating over the Cross Center housing fiasco. Funding a new arena is not the responsibility of Norman. Not our circus, not our monkey.

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

I’m asking you to provide documents in support of your argument about OU’s financials that aren’t 5 years old. I said nothing about the arena.

there is no vote to void this TIF at the ballot box

An initiative petition drive to void it at the ballot box can not commence until the CC approves the two TIF's. You can count on this happening.

OU has a bad credit rating over the Cross Center housing fiasco. Funding a new arena is not the responsibility of Norman. Not our circus, not our monkey.

things that are not true at all? For 100 Alex.


https://www.fitchratings.com/research/us-public-finance/fitch-rates-university-of-oklahoma-2024ab-grbs-a-outlook-stable-27-02-2024#:~:text=OU's%20'A%2B'%20IDR%20and,to%20modest ly%20growing%20enrollment%20base.

google can be your friend ..

...

I’m asking you to provide documents in support of your argument about OU’s financials that aren’t 5 years old. I said nothing about the arena.

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

It makes zero economic sense for Norman to guarantee a $600M loan for a facility that OU will not concede who will own it.

http://www.ou.edu/insideou/articles/norman-financial-situation.html#:~:text=The%20Norman%20campus%20has %20close,construction%20on%20the%20Norman%20campus

Here is why OU won't be getting a new arena anytime soon if this doesn't happen. It goes all the way back to Boren spending like crazy. Galloway got crapped on for being a penny-pincher. Now we know why.

I have some insight into this and can tell you that a great many universities have similar debt. It is not unique to OU. There has been a massive building boom on all college campuses (including a major push for athletic facilities) for the last 15-20 years. It's been incredible and, frankly, unsustainable. OU's got daylighted because of Gallogly's personality and style of management, but it is absolutely something facing many, many universities across the country. Private donations, for whatever type of construction, rarely pay for all of a project; only part of it. Bonds have to finance the majority.

I have some insight into this and can tell you that a great many universities have similar debt. It is not unique to OU. There has been a massive building boom on all college campuses (including a major push for athletic facilities) for the last 15-20 years. It's been incredible and, frankly, unsustainable. OU's got daylighted because of Gallogly's personality and style of management, but it is absolutely something facing many, many universities across the country. Private donations, for whatever type of construction, rarely pay for all of a project; only part of it. Bonds have to finance the majority.

Agree with all of this, and it's not unique to just state universities. Starting in 2026 we're going to see the start of a demographic cliff (https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/looming-enrollment-cliff-poses-serious-threat-to-colleges/) as the number of graduating HS seniors declines due to smaller cohort sizes. This is going to put pressure on a lot of universities who are already just barely making ends meet with current enrollment numbers.

Agree with all of this, and it's not unique to just state universities. Starting in 2026 we're going to see the start of a demographic cliff (https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/looming-enrollment-cliff-poses-serious-threat-to-colleges/) as the number of graduating HS seniors declines due to smaller cohort sizes. This is going to put pressure on a lot of universities who are already just barely making ends meet with current enrollment numbers.

OU's enrollment is 50% larger than when the baby boomers came out of HS (I was one of them), so these age group trends don't directly translate into smaller university classes.

The schools that will suffer are those that are smaller and regional. The big universities have massive resources to keep improving and the smaller schools do not. Most big state schools and especially the flagships just keep growing.

What's primarily changed is the ease of information flow; every single high school kid knows what a school has to offer both in terms of social life and academics. It's created incredible competition but the big schools can keep up while the small schools can not.

things that are not true at all? For 100 Alex.

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/us-public-finance/fitch-rates-university-of-oklahoma-2024ab-grbs-a-outlook-stable-27-02-2024#:~:text=OU's%20'A%2B'%20IDR%20and,to%20modest ly%20growing%20enrollment%20base.

google can be your friend ..

For reference, the criteria for Fitch's ratings can be found here:

https://www.fitchratings.com/products/rating-definitions



Fitch Ratings publishes credit ratings that are forward-looking opinions on the relative ability of an entity or obligation to meet financial commitments. Issuer default ratings (IDRs) are assigned to corporations, sovereign entities, financial institutions such as banks, leasing companies and insurers, and public finance entities (local and regional governments). Issue level ratings are also assigned, often include an expectation of recovery and may be notched above or below the issuer level rating. Issue ratings are assigned to secured and unsecured debt securities, loans, preferred stock and other instruments, Structured finance ratings are issue ratings to securities backed by receivables or other financial assets that consider the obligations’ relative vulnerability to default.


The scale is AAA, AA, A, BBB, BB, B, CCC, CC, C, RD, and D. Fitch has rated OU's 2024AB GRBs as A+; unlike academic grades, an A+ rating by Fitch is not the highest bond rating.

Here are some ratings of bonds/IDRs from regional institutions (not all are 2024, but should be most recent):

- University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center 2024A Rev Bonds - AA

- Oklahoma State University SER 2024 GRBs and IDR - AA-

- University of Texas System Series 2024B PUF Bonds - AAA

- Texas A&M University's Series 2024A RFS Bonds - AAA

- Texas Christian University Series 2024 Rev Bonds - AA-

- Louisiana State University IDR - AA-

- West Virginia University Improvement Revs - AA-

- New Mexico State University Revenue Bonds - A+

I couldn't find a Fitch rating for every university. However, there are multiple services rating entities ranging from state governments to universities to utilities. You can take a look at this Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_credit_rating) for historical ratings for state governments to get an idea of what "normal" ratings look like for public entities.

OU's rating by Fitch isn't bad, but it's below many peer institutions and isn't considered a good rating.

F
OU's rating by Fitch isn't bad, but it's below many peer institutions and isn't considered a good rating.

which is the point OU does NOT have a bad credit rating ... and i disagree they have a "good" rating they just don't have a great rating

which is the point OU does NOT have a bad credit rating ... and i disagree they have a "good" rating they just don't have a great rating

West Virginia University, which has received a lot of publicity for financial mismanagement in the past year, issued new debt with a Fitch rating of AA-. The A+ Fitch rating is not a good rating.

All I said about that was that since 2019 and Gallogly, OU has changed their development process.

I posted this because it shows that OU has a ton of debt still. And can't afford to issue bonds for the arena. So getting free private money is a way to get a new arena.

"Free private money". A classic line from grifters and con artists. How is it private if Norman is guaranteeing a 600M loan from the general fund? How is it free if Norman government is involved paying the interest with taxes collected outside of UNP?

You think long-term debt only affects the...short-term? Boren took out a ton of debt to make the campus modern and look very nice, and now that debt is starting to add up.

This is why OU can't just take out more bonds to pay for a new arena, so a public-private effort like this is their best chance for a new arena. Maybe only chance.

This is such a gross mischaracterization it is laughable. Quit the spin. Gallogly and the politicians backing him had no clue about running a university with an academic mission. The idiotic idea that you can run every institution like a for profit oil company shows how out of reality politics can get. There was so much spin on Boren that was rooted in 40 years of political and social hate it was incredible.

And beyond all this rhetoric about credit rating, all it means is that the better the grade, the lower the interest on the new debt.

We are talking about fractions of a percent, and not necessarily any limitation on the amount you can actually borrow.

And you will be stuck with an empty 100 acres, owned by the OU Foundation, getting no sales tax and minimal property tax, since it is empty land. Really benefits Norman.

Cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

Even the Hunden Partners report assumes that growth WILL happen in the TIF district without a new arena.

Sooner Investments makes a clear case that this area is prime real estate. University Town CenterNorman, OK - Sooner Investment

"UNIVERSITY TOWN CENTER is Oklahoma’s premier destinations for shopping, dining, entertainment, and lodging! Located off Interstate 35 in the vibrant University North Park district, University Town Center is a power center, developed around Legacy Park and the Legacy Park Trail. At the center of the development is the Legacy Park lake, which boasts impressive water features and fountains, as well as an amphitheater that hosts a concert series and and many other events. Legacy Park Trail will take pedestrians from the hotel district to Legacy Park, through the shopping center, and out of the development, through the city to Historic Downtown Norman and the University of Oklahoma."

Do you think that this land will sit completely empty for the next 25 years? And that it will only develop if an arena is built? Hard to make that argument imo. Look at the current UNP, it was empty for decades and has developed fairly rapidly, without an arena. Doesnt take much of a leap of faith to say the same can happen in this proposed TIF area.

City of Norman would be better served using resources in conjunction with ODOT to add on/off ramps at Rock Creek Rd rather than this arena deal. That way they get to keep the sales and ad valorem taxes that will eventually come.

No, of course not. But it will become a bunch of strip malls with more big-box or chain stores. Or a car dealership, like one of the lots over there. Lol.

It hasn't been developed for 15 years, so no one is in any hurry to develop there, except for OU.

the powers that be in moore don't feel this way ..

I would disagree with that actually. The "powers that be" dont get to decide to spend that amount of money without asking for it anyway. The people would have to vote on some sort of funding measure for that because city itself cant do it without some sort of tax. And that, my friend, is where the support falls off like a cliff.

I would disagree with that actually. The "powers that be" dont get to decide to spend that amount of money without asking for it anyway. The people would have to vote on some sort of funding measure for that because city itself cant do it without some sort of tax. And that, my friend, is where the support falls off like a cliff.

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

FWIW:
https://tif-ed.blogspot.com/2024/06/norman-oversight-committee-rejects.html?m=1
Tuesday, June 18, 2024
Norman Oversight Committee rejects Arena TIF Project Plan

The University North Park TIF #2 oversight committee met on June 18, 2024. Six members were present representing a quorum. The committee discussed the proposed Rock Creek Entertainment District Tax Increment Finance Plan which would create two new TIF districts to pay for the costs of an arena + parking structure + district infrastructure.

The project costs are estimated to be $230 million with up to an additional $370 million in financing costs.

The TIF structure is unusual for two reasons. First, the Texas developer, Rainer, LLC would take out a loan and the City would commit to paying off the principal plus interest costs. Second, 100% of the sales and advalorem taxes collected in the increment district would be used to pay off the debt. TIF usually split revenue growth in an increment district so that taxing jurisdictions share in the growth for the entire life of the project.

Here is a summary of some of the key points: ( See article)

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

I realize they do not need a vote of the public but there is a big difference in a 2 million dollar incentive for Costco versus a $250 million (or more since they need land) incentive.

Reminder that there was a proposal at the state level to require a public vote on all new TIF districts and it was voted down after a lot of lobbying from the OKC Chamber and other economic development entities.

FWIW:
https://tif-ed.blogspot.com/2024/06/norman-oversight-committee-rejects.html?m=1
Tuesday, June 18, 2024
Norman Oversight Committee rejects Arena TIF Project Plan

The University North Park TIF #2 oversight committee met on June 18, 2024. Six members were present representing a quorum. The committee discussed the proposed Rock Creek Entertainment District Tax Increment Finance Plan which would create two new TIF districts to pay for the costs of an arena + parking structure + district infrastructure.

The project costs are estimated to be $230 million with up to an additional $370 million in financing costs.

The TIF structure is unusual for two reasons. First, the Texas developer, Rainer, LLC would take out a loan and the City would commit to paying off the principal plus interest costs. Second, 100% of the sales and advalorem taxes collected in the increment district would be used to pay off the debt. TIF usually split revenue growth in an increment district so that taxing jurisdictions share in the growth for the entire life of the project.

Here is a summary of some of the key points: ( See article)

except that it isn't 100% of the sales tax the city of norman sales tax is 4.13%, and only 3% of the sales tax in the TIF would be going to pay off the loan. the other 1.13% is to go to fire, police, and other city provided services... just like the other TIF districts in Norman. This isn't something that is different in this TIF compared to the others that currently exist. to say it's 100% is disingenuous, at best.

except that it isn't 100% of the sales tax the city of norman sales tax is 4.13%, and only 3% of the sales tax in the TIF would be going to pay off the loan. the other 1.13% is to go to fire, police, and other city provided services... just like the other TIF districts in Norman. This isn't something that is different in this TIF compared to the others that currently exist. to say it's 100% is disingenuous, at best.

they don't care about being truthful

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel
Can't be ruled out

just like norman the moore council can give tax incentives with out any public vote ..


did you vote for costco ? or the tons of other business that got and are getting incentives??

That's an oversimplification and comparing apples to oranges.

Unless this was going to be a fully private structure, the city offering a tax incentive wouldn't be a drop in the bucket. CostCo or any other box store is dirt cheap to build. The tax incentive for the simple structure, makes a pretty good dent. If you're building an arena, you're talking a 100 times over, at least, bill. If it were as simple as tax incentives to build them, we wouldn't have cities and teams fighting all over the country about who is going to pay for them. Teams wouldn't leave cities because they can't get the city to pay more if it was that simple. OKC wouldn't have needed a MAPs vote for one if it was that simple.

Moore's coffers are not as deep as Norman. Is there land, yeah. Right next to Coscto actually. But could they afford to give that tax incentive at the level it would require? And how would an incentive like that affect ad-valorum for the schools. Would they really want to shoot themselves in the foot like that? I think your comment is showing a misunderstanding of how this would work, and what the pulse of the government/people in Moore is. Not to mention, we just got a new mayor that while he applauded all the commercial efforts for the former long-running mayor, doesn't have that on his radar of things to do and really doesn't need to. The economic engine has been put on an extremely firm foundation and will develop organically at this point. It doesn't NEED this. And without the need, there is very little appetite to push for something like this in Moore.

And yet again, being that far from campus...super bad. What is it Kentucky that plays at a municipal arena? But guess what? It's next door to campus and is a massive facility. That's not the same as building in a strip mall miles away or in the next suburb up.

That's an oversimplification and comparing apples to oranges.

Unless this was going to be a fully private structure, the city offering a tax incentive wouldn't be a drop in the bucket. CostCo or any other box store is dirt cheap to build. The tax incentive for the simple structure, makes a pretty good dent. If you're building an arena, you're talking a 100 times over, at least, bill. If it were as simple as tax incentives to build them, we wouldn't have cities and teams fighting all over the country about who is going to pay for them. Teams wouldn't leave cities because they can't get the city to pay more if it was that simple. OKC wouldn't have needed a MAPs vote for one if it was that simple.

Moore's coffers are not as deep as Norman. Is there land, yeah. Right next to Coscto actually. But could they afford to give that tax incentive at the level it would require? And how would an incentive like that affect ad-valorum for the schools. Would they really want to shoot themselves in the foot like that? I think your comment is showing a misunderstanding of how this would work, and what the pulse of the government/people in Moore is. Not to mention, we just got a new mayor that while he applauded all the commercial efforts for the former long-running mayor, doesn't have that on his radar of things to do and really doesn't need to. The economic engine has been put on an extremely firm foundation and will develop organically at this point. It doesn't NEED this. And without the need, there is very little appetite to push for something like this in Moore.

And yet again, being that far from campus...super bad. What is it Kentucky that plays at a municipal arena? But guess what? It's next door to campus and is a massive facility. That's not the same as building in a strip mall miles away or in the next suburb up.

TIF is a tax incentive .... okc and maps is an outlier ... not normal in any way ..

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone think Old Navy would leave Sooner Mall and move out to UNP? I'm kind of wondering if they'll move next to where they're building a new Hobby Lobby and Mardel

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

I didn’t realize Sun and Ski left the mall. Are they still in Norman?

I think this could easily happen. Sun and Ski is out of the mall now. Old Navy gets a ton of traffic for that mall.

the only times i go to the mall anymore are to vote... that place is on life support for staying around.

I didn’t realize Sun and Ski left the mall. Are they still in Norman?

Nope. Gone.