nothing changed

How did nothing change? Unless they were being intentionally vague with the costs of each element in the September meeting, and 80% of the total cost, while correct, is broken out amongst multiple items?

How did nothing change? Unless they were being intentionally vague with the costs of each element in the September meeting, and 80% of the total cost, while correct, is broken out amongst multiple items?

i mean i think they purposefully left it vague before... i think they are going to hit the 80% of the total overall development being university and private, but the arena is a big sunk cost that they won't be able to recoop the private investment on as quickly, so they are offing that more to the city.... so i wouldn't say bait and switch, but a purposeful misdirection to try and make it sound good to the citizens

How did nothing change? Unless they were being intentionally vague with the costs of each element in the September meeting, and 80% of the total cost, while correct, is broken out amongst multiple items?

it was allays presented as 80% private dollars of the total development ..
80% of the plan's $1 billion cost will be covered through private funds

i am suprised that the city only has to pay 60% or the arena costs .. i thought it would be more ..

Note that the university investment will at least be partly (and perhaps mostly) in the form of land contribution.

i mean i think they purposefully left it vague before... i think they are going to hit the 80% of the total overall development being university and private, but the arena is a big sunk cost that they won't be able to recoop the private investment on as quickly, so they are offing that more to the city.... so i wouldn't say bait and switch, but a purposeful misdirection to try and make it sound good to the citizens

Ironically, if 40% private was being thrown around for the new OKC arena, this board wouldn’t have anything to complain about.

i mean i think they purposefully left it vague before... i think they are going to hit the 80% of the total overall development being university and private, but the arena is a big sunk cost that they won't be able to recoop the private investment on as quickly, so they are offing that more to the city.... so i wouldn't say bait and switch, but a purposeful misdirection to try and make it sound good to the citizens

You are right. They added in a bunch of private ancillary development to make the non public cost percentages look better, even though there are no specifics, no timetables and no guarantees of the surrounding developments.

So I guess that no one is surprised that once again what was promised at UNP is not what is actually going to happen?
Why do I feel like we've seen this movie before.....?

So I guess that no one is surprised that once again what was promised at UNP is not what is actually going to happen?
Why do I feel like we've seen this movie before.....?

but what was promised is what is happening... they just tried to word it in a way that made people think they were only talking about the arena, when they clearly the whole time have been saying the entire development.

You are right. They added in a bunch of private ancillary development to make the non public cost percentages look better, even though there are no specifics, no timetables and no guarantees of the surrounding developments.

This is exactly the point OU professor DR. Cynthia Rogers made when it was announced in Sept
Read this fact based and the evidence on why this is a bad deal for Norman.
Remember all the promises made to get UNP that never materialized, such as the lifestyle center.

https://www.normantranscript.com/opinion/guest-column-can-you-believe-the-unp-arena-entertainment-district-hype/article_f86fce5e-639e-11ee-bd95-37ab819eab87.html

but what was promised is what is happening... they just tried to word it in a way that made people think they were only talking about the arena, when they clearly the whole time have been saying the entire development.

Where is the lifestyle center the OU Foundation promised for UNP years ago?⁸

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. Can we trust those involved if they feel the need to try to deceive the public in the initial proposal announcement?
I'll leave this here and will withhold my skepticism going forward and hope that I'm wrong a few years from now.

Ironically, if 40% private was being thrown around for the new OKC arena, this board wouldn’t have anything to complain about.

Oh, they'd find something.......

it was allays presented as 80% private dollars of the total development ..

i am suprised that the city only has to pay 60% or the arena costs .. i thought it would be more ..
That still sucks we’ll have the seat count if true like really

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors. Can we trust those involved if they feel the need to try to deceive the public in the initial proposal announcement?
I'll leave this here and will withhold my skepticism going forward and hope that I'm wrong a few years from now.

there were no smoke and mirrors ..

if someone didn't understand that this was the proposed deal they have a reding comprehension problem or where/are being intentionally uninformed

So I guess that no one is surprised that once again what was promised at UNP is not what is actually going to happen?
Why do I feel like we've seen this movie before.....?

this was what was announced and promised ..

if you don't understand that that is a you problem

there were no smoke and mirrors ..

if someone didn't understand that this was the proposed deal they have a reding comprehension problem or where/are being intentionally uninformed

You can say this but the headline takeaway was 80% of the funding was private money. Probably could call it a bait and switch but at the very least its fudging the numbers to make the arena funding look better than it actually is. Curious what land value OU has put on the piece that will be the arena. Wouldnt be surprised if they pumped up that number too.

You can say this but the headline takeaway was 80% of the funding was private money. Probably could call it a bait and switch but at the very least its fudging the numbers to make the arena funding look better than it actually is. Curious what land value OU has put on the piece that will be the arena. Wouldnt be surprised if they pumped up that number too.

80% of the funding for the whole expansion. Not the arena. There will be a higher % of private funding for the remaining development. Nice try, though.

80% of the funding for the whole expansion. Not the arena. There will be a higher % of private funding for the remaining development. Nice try, though.

Nice try on what? There was a big PR splash saying 80% of this will be private money, as if the arena would only require 20% of public money. The 80-20 number was basically the headline. Then you get into the details and the arena requires 60% of public money. It basically is a bait and switch. Of course private money will build apartments, retail and restaurants, so why try adding that into the mix other than to confuse citizens?

And like I mentioned, theres not guarantee of when these apartments, retail and restaurants get built, or at what cost. Easy for people to say they'll be developing $800 million worth of private projects, but no guarantee they will anytime soon. And it shouldnt be mixed with the arena costs and funding.

Nice try on what? There was a big PR splash saying 80% of this will be private money, as if the arena would only require 20% of public money. The 80-20 number was basically the headline. Then you get into the details and the arena requires 60% of public money. It basically is a bait and switch. Of course private money will build apartments, retail and restaurants, so why try adding that into the mix other than to confuse citizens?

And like I mentioned, theres not guarantee of when these apartments, retail and restaurants get built, or at what cost. Easy for people to say they'll be developing $800 million worth of private projects, but no guarantee they will anytime soon. And it shouldnt be mixed with the arena costs and funding.

It's not meant to confuse. They aren't lying in any way, like some on here are saying. How the 80% is allocated doesn't matter. That's the point. But believe what you want. I'm done trying to convince people on here that the truth is the truth, and trying to spin it to make it seem like a lie just because there are now more details that don't contradict the original statement doesn't make it any less of the truth. They never outright said they were paying 80% of the arena. Find me that line. You'll find 80% of the development. But never just for the arena.

No bait and switch. If 80% of the development is paid for by private money, no matter how it is allocated, then there was no damn lie.

It's not meant to confuse. They aren't lying in any way, like some on here are saying. How the 80% is allocated doesn't matter. That's the point. But believe what you want. I'm done trying to convince people on here that the truth is the truth, and trying to spin it to make it seem like a lie just because there are now more details that don't contradict the original statement doesn't make it any less of the truth. They never outright said they were paying 80% of the arena. Find me that line. You'll find 80% of the development. But never just for the arena.

No bait and switch. If 80% of the development is paid for by private money, no matter how it is allocated, then there was no damn lie.

Go back to post 1262 of this thread and read the press release. $1 billion project, 80% from private money, only 20% of public money. That was the big headline. There was no further breakdown on just the arena. They pumped up a bunch of "potential" private developments to make the public funding side of the arena look smaller than what we now know to be much higher. Went from 20% to 60% after you got into the details.

Heres how it will go down. Public will pay for most of the arena. Private ancillary development will be less than originally promised and take much longer to happen, all while Norman sees very little sales tax bump, if at all, and game attendance wont be any better.

Heres how it will go down. Public will pay for most of the arena. Private ancillary development will be less than originally promised and take much longer to happen, all while Norman sees very little sales tax bump, if at all, and game attendance wont be any better.

this is all just your opinion. except for the part on the public funds for the arena, they will be around 60%.

Go back to post 1262 of this thread and read the press release. $1 billion project, 80% from private money, only 20% of public money. That was the big headline. There was no further breakdown on just the arena. They pumped up a bunch of "potential" private developments to make the public funding side of the arena look smaller than what we now know to be much higher. Went from 20% to 60% after you got into the details.

Heres how it will go down. Public will pay for most of the arena. Private ancillary development will be less than originally promised and take much longer to happen, all while Norman sees very little sales tax bump, if at all, and game attendance wont be any better.

I'm done dealing with you not reading. You're ineptness and inane ability to not read the whole story, and focus on 1 part, is detrimental to discussing this, and I won't be a part of your irresponsible handling of this.

80% of total costs will be private. Not 80% of every part and parcel of the development.

You're negative and biased against this, so there is no sense in me wasting any energy or breath on someone who wants to see something only 1 way.

You can say this but the headline takeaway was 80% of the funding was private money. Probably could call it a bait and switch but at the very least its fudging the numbers to make the arena funding look better than it actually is. Curious what land value OU has put on the piece that will be the arena. Wouldnt be surprised if they pumped up that number too.

if you thought there was going to be a 1 billion dollar arena for OU basketball then that is on you

If you don't think that this entire development is going to end up being very underwhelming, please DM me...I'd love to set up a time to inspect your wallet.

If you don't think that this entire development is going to end up being very underwhelming, please DM me...I'd love to set up a time to inspect your wallet.
:iagree:

If the public is going to pay for 60 percent of this arena, why not just use the taxpayer money to build the arena on campus? And the other 40 percent will be private and University funds? Sounds like it’s going to be taxpayer money and university money paying for the bulk if this. Then to have the city on the hook for infrastructure upgrades is a joke. Just build the arena where the infrastructure already exists (like on a college campus.) The entire argument was that the arena had to be built at UNP because it wouldn’t get built without the private funds. Now it turns out the majority of the money for the arena is going to be taxpayer funded with a kick in from the university and some unknown “private” dollar amount. Sounds like OU is moving their arena off campus to get maybe 15-25 percent of the arena built by private money. After the city pays for all of the new infrastructure needed in the area that small private amount will be a wash. What a joke.

What a really stupid development. All of this to have the smallest arena. Typical Oklahoma sh!t.

What a really stupid development. All of this to have the smallest arena. Typical Oklahoma sh!t.

I'll tell that to Duke...

I'll tell that to Duke...
I love the money lamp. That’s my response to that.

I love the money lamp. That’s my response to that.

Not sure what that means, but it makes no sense, so is right on brand.

What a really stupid development. All of this to have the smallest arena. Typical Oklahoma sh!t.
We all know you look down on Oklahomans.

We all know you look down on Oklahomans.

He thinks the new arena is being built for increasing attendance majorly. OU doesn't sell out anything more than 10k, so why build a 15k arena?

We all know you look down on Oklahomans.
Yeah I do. I think Oklahomans are all a bunch of backwards hillbilly uneducated hicks who I’m so much better than. That includes all my family and friends I grew up with because I essentially grew up in Edmond and north Dallas. All because I want to see better quality developments and not the smoke and mirror crap we get so often. I want to see better developments in Oklahoma which means I think I’m better. Yeah, real sound argument.

I also really appreciate you claiming I feel that way about my friends and family. Many of whom are Oklahomans.

Not sure what that means, but it makes no sense, so is right on brand.
Family guy reference from the episode where they’re trapped in a safe hiding from robbers where Peter explains why he doesn’t like the Godfather Trilogy. One of the best written scripts IMO as far as a hilarious natural dialogue between fictitious cartoon characters go all by Seth.


He thinks the new arena is being built for increasing attendance majorly. OU doesn't sell out anything more than 10k, so why build a 15k arena?
Maybe attendance would increase? If there really isn’t much of a demand or expected increase in demand why all the talk about it being a good spot here as opposed to the campus since much of the attendees are from campus anyways? If the appeal was to not worry about increased attendance or current demands being met but a new facility is needed why not go bigger?

Count me on the side who hopes this proposal gets shot down especially since it’ll be the smallest arena. If it were bigger then maybe I could be on board with it. Not that it really matters though or I have a say.

Look im not in favor of this at all, but i dont think they need to build a 15k arena.

OU basketball is not doing well. Attendance is not good. A new arena isn't going to make everyone suddenly want to go to an OU game. Maybe for the first few games, but that's it. The team has to improve in order to fill the place. And honestly, OU has struggled to fill Lloyd Noble even when they were doing great. There were always seats available. Not nearly as many as there are now, but there were plenty. We dont need another 15k arena in the area for sure. Especially if it's going to be not well filled. What this development does, it give OU a chance to scrub the Lloyd Noble site of the current arena while whey figure out what their new plan will be. It's going to hurt recruiting for years, not having a campus-based "OU" facility. Having to drive a recruit over to the "Norman" arena, will not look good. Especially when the team is already struggling with recruiting. Some of the newer SEC arenas are nice, but I still argue that even Lloyd Noble holds its own in Big 12 and SEC. It's far from the bottom. This does allow OU to use the facility without having to dump a bunch of money in to it. It's about having breathing room for a bit.

I would prefer we figure it out on the OU campus myself, but that doesn't look like the plan that's on the table. My magic 8 ball thinks that in another 10 years, we'll be looking at what the new OU arena will look like though.

As for the public/private split, well if I were a Norman voter, i would vote No. The split keeps changing and it's not favorable to the city now. Rather the developers are just working out how to decrease their funding needs, while still getting what they want. It seems to me, that it's evolving into an unfavorable situation.

Call the Funk Express Sports train. Maybe they could find a way to bring us hockey or arena football in Norman?

Smaller arenas are a trend in college basketball.

UT's state-of-the-art new arena holds about 10,000 (down from 16,500 at the Drum).

Baylor, who won recent national championships in both men's and women's basketball, is building a new arena with just 7,000 seats.

Despite smaller attendance, a lot of "big" schools have created terrific atmospheres with tiny arenas - such as Duke and Gonzaga. Sell out almost every game, no empty seats, louder acoustics.

Auburn's new 9,000 seat arena would be a great model for OU. I do wish it was on or closer to campus, though: https://auburntigers.com/sports/2022/11/30/neville-arena-basketball.aspx

Smaller arenas are a trend in college basketball.

UT's state-of-the-art new arena holds about 10,000 (down from 16,500 at the Drum).

Baylor, who won recent national championships in both men's and women's basketball, is building a new arena with just 7,000 seats.

Despite smaller attendance, a lot of "big" schools have created terrific atmospheres with tiny arenas - such as Duke and Gonzaga. Sell out almost every game, no empty seats, louder acoustics.

Auburn's new 9,000 seat arena would be a great model for OU. I do wish it was on or closer to campus, though: https://auburntigers.com/sports/2022/11/30/neville-arena-basketball.aspx

If Oklahoma State had just held on to their 6386 seats that had in GIA, even though expansion 25 years ago seemed like the right move at the time.

This is Baylor's 7,000-seat arena; will be very similar to what would be built for OU:

https://www2.baylor.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/pavilion2-jan22-1024x550.jpg

S
Auburn's new 9,000 seat arena would be a great model for OU. I do wish it was on or closer to campus, though: https://auburntigers.com/sports/2022/11/30/neville-arena-basketball.aspx

i agree with this ..

I will also add that I have on pretty good authority that money was the chief driver of the 8k capacity

OU really would have liked this to be 10k (as the plan from a few years ago had)

But, But ,But, OU only plans to use this arena 25% of open dates. So if OU only plans to contribute less than 40 % and use it less than 30% why the concern on what OU basketball can fill? With what OU is kicking in and the amount of dates they are committing to it seems OU has an outsized influence on this proposed arena.

^

Because there is no arena without OU basketball.

^

Because there is no arena without OU basketball.

And OU's contribution should reflect that reality. Norman voters have not been clamorig for an arena to be built.

And OU's contribution should reflect that reality. Norman voters have not been clamorig for an arena to be built.

the out of pocket contribution for norman voters will be 0 dollars

And OU's contribution should reflect that reality. Norman voters have not been clamorig for an arena to be built.

The rent they would pay and the concessions from their crowds will be the main cash flow for the arena, and the arena itself will fuel the entire entertainment district.

Nobody knows the exact financial details yet, so no need to get so worked up.

But, But ,But, OU only plans to use this arena 25% of open dates. So if OU only plans to contribute less than 40 % and use it less than 30% why the concern on what OU basketball can fill? With what OU is kicking in and the amount of dates they are committing to it seems OU has an outsized influence on this proposed arena.

One thing I'd like to see is the value OU is assigning to this land. Is it a reasonable price or will they inflate the value so they can help get to that 40%?

the out of pocket contribution for norman voters will be 0 dollars

The City of Norman is paying for 60% of the cost of the arena. Where will that money come from?

The City of Norman is paying for 60% of the cost of the arena. Where will that money come from?

Comes from delayed property taxes going to local school districts, county health department, libraries and whatever else property taxes go to. Could be over 2 decades of delayed funding depending on how long the TIF lasts.

Comes from delayed property taxes going to local school districts, county health department, libraries and whatever else property taxes go to. Could be over 2 decades of delayed funding depending on how long the TIF lasts.

and none of those property taxes will exist if this development doesn't get built ..

The City of Norman is paying for 60% of the cost of the arena. Where will that money come from?

future taxes on this development ..

It sounds like the private money involved really needs this arena at UNP to make the rest of their proposed development work. It also seems like they want to put very little skin in the game to make the arena itself a reality.

The cornerstone of your development plans being built by mostly public money in order to make the rest of your plans viable.. Pretty good work if you can get it.

Its an entertainment district to be built around the development. This type of development has been going on for years around stadiums and arenas. See (on a much larger scale) the development around the American Airlines Center in Dallas and the new baseball stadium in Arlington.

It sounds like the private money involved really needs this arena at UNP to make the rest of their proposed development work. It also seems like they want to put very little skin in the game to make the arena itself a reality.

The cornerstone of your development plans being built by mostly public money in order to make the rest of your plans viable.. Pretty good work if you can get it.

the "private money involved" is OU

the "private money involved" is OU

"and private developers."

Per Lackemeyer - University of Oklahoma President Joe Harroz Jr. was among those supporting the development, which would include a replacement for the Lloyd Noble Center. He said the university would not participate in the development cost but would agree to pay rent for the arena and other venues.

Heikkila confirmed those revenues would be used to support the use of revenue bonds, which are paid from increased revenues from a development.

If the arena gets built with 60% city funds I hope they are smart enough to lock OU into a very long term lease.
Genuinely curious to hear of other ways the city is planning on making money with the arena when it's not in use for OU events?

"and private developers."

Per Lackemeyer - University of Oklahoma President Joe Harroz Jr. was among those supporting the development, which would include a replacement for the Lloyd Noble Center. He said the university would not participate in the development cost but would agree to pay rent for the arena and other venues.

Heikkila confirmed those revenues would be used to support the use of revenue bonds, which are paid from increased revenues from a development.

lol at "per lackemeyer" the OU foundation = "not OU" and yes private developers are going to build lots of the other stuff

If the arena gets built with 60% city funds I hope they are smart enough to lock OU into a very long term lease.
Genuinely curious to hear of other ways the city is planning on making money with the arena when it's not in use for OU events?

is the city going to own the arena?

Smaller arenas are a trend in college basketball.

UT's state-of-the-art new arena holds about 10,000 (down from 16,500 at the Drum).

Baylor, who won recent national championships in both men's and women's basketball, is building a new arena with just 7,000 seats.

Despite smaller attendance, a lot of "big" schools have created terrific atmospheres with tiny arenas - such as Duke and Gonzaga. Sell out almost every game, no empty seats, louder acoustics.

Auburn's new 9,000 seat arena would be a great model for OU. I do wish it was on or closer to campus, though: https://auburntigers.com/sports/2022/11/30/neville-arena-basketball.aspx
I did not know smaller arenas were trending. Why is that? Is the sport of college basketball not as popular or more people watching at home?

I did not know smaller arenas were trending. Why is that? Is the sport of college basketball not as popular or more people watching at home?

More watching at home. Same with college football, at a lot of schools. More convenient, cost-friendly, no dealing with traffic, etc. Not every college, but a lot. Most new stadiums aren't going to be bigger. And a lot of renovations take away seating to make the stadiums more fan friendly.

Movie theaters were the first, now stadiums/arenas. Lower general capacities, but increase the experiences with VIP services.

lol at "per lackemeyer" the OU foundation = "not OU" and yes private developers are going to build lots of the other stuff

So that's probably where the confusion is. OU itself isn't going to provide squat, but they will with the Foundation. So the university can say they only are paying for their use. Tricky use of words there, but I do think that's the better arrangement honestly. OU doesn't NEED this, so it's a way to get that middle crutch while they figure out what to do for Lloyd Noble, without having to drop millions. Smart thinking for me. The donors are still paying, but its not really coming out of Operations.

Although if the source is Lackemeyer, well, i think everyone here only trusts his comments so far as his own lips. He's notorious for blowing smoke and being wildly inaccurate. Those Friday talks are always a laugh.