I believe you that it is currently up. I was just wondering if anyone else had seen it up several weeks back, then removed shortly after. Maybe I just saw a banner or something.

Not sure. This was actual signage put onto the stone. I haven't been by that area in several weeks so I am not 100%. The inside did not look to be close to done. No information I can find online yet either.

I believe La Madeleine is now open.

Saw this morning construction fence was up with PDQ coming soon sign. In the field just north of Tuckers.

Yes it is.

I saw dirt work happening south of Rock Creek. Is this the location of the Carmax?

Yes it is.

I saw dirt work happening south of Rock Creek. Is this the location of the Carmax?

Yep. Should be.

OU arena still has to jump through a few hoops

By: Molly M. Fleming The Journal Record February 22, 2018

OKLAHOMA CITY – There are still several steps before the University of Oklahoma will have a new basketball arena along Interstate 35.

The university has been working with CallisonRTKL on a master plan for the land north of Rock Creek Road, along I-35 and south of W. Tecumseh Road. Part of the plan includes an entertainment district, with 150,000 square feet of restaurants and other venues, 100,000 square feet of office, a 225-room hotel, a 40,000-square-foot expo center, and a 10,000-seat basketball arena. But the site is in an existing tax increment finance district, which was created in 2006. That TIF district doesn’t include an arena or an expo center.

Norman City Attorney Jeff Bryant said the City Council would have to amend the existing TIF district to allow the change. The land south of Rock Creek includes hotels, retailers, and restaurants, but the northern land’s financing was for office, multifamily, and light industrial. If the city wanted to move forward with the arena, the TIF amount would have to be updated as well. The 2006 TIF was for $54.75 million. He said proposals for the additional tax increment money are between $50 million and $90 million. Additionally, the site’s planned unit development would need an update. Bryant said the TIF or PUD are not on any agendas at this time.

Center for Economic Development Law attorney Dan Batchelor has been working with CallisonRTKL on the TIF side. He said the firm is still evaluating the financing options.

“We see the potential for a wide-ranging set of opportunities here,” he said. “It could surely have a huge, potential positive impact for the city of Norman, but the nature and shape (of the project) requires a lot more careful consideration.”

CallisonRTKL’s Jeff Gunning gave a presentation about the entire development at the Commercial Real Estate Council’s annual forecast event, held Thursday in downtown Oklahoma City.

He showed single-family housing and multifamily, along with more office space on the 250-acre site. He said CallisonRTKL had been working with the foundation since 2000. He called the $140 million arena a catalyst for the entertainment area.

Gunning said Thursday that the University of Oklahoma was not yet 100 percent behind the project.

“They do want the arena there,” he said. “The athletic department wants it. There’s more proving out to be done.”

The entertainment district will be more focused on restaurants than stores, he said. There are plenty of stores on the south side of Rock Creek Road.

He said the next step is to bring in a master developer who could bring more developers to help with the project.

Norman Economic Development Coalition President and CEO Jason Smith said his board of directors sees the potential district as a way to keep young professionals in the city. He said young people are flocking to amenity-rich environments, so this could add to the city’s amenity options.

Man, I really don't understand this whole arena thing.

Man, I really don't understand this whole arena thing.

It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?

It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?

OU has the worst student section in the Big XII... I don't think moving the arena is going to make that any worse.

Heck... I almost see more students at the OU Hockey games than I ever saw when I was a season basketball ticket holder..... Ok... I might be exaggerating just slightly but I do see them at the hockey games at the Blazers Ice Center.

It's really baffling. OU has done such a tremendous job of growing the campus. To build an arena in this area that is poorly designed and bound to decay over time, is so strange. Don't you want students to be able to walk over to games?

They don't walk now. For that matter they don't come by any means of conveyance. The thinking is more fans will come if there are more options before and after games. That in addition to easier access for those coming from the City. I have gone to all but one home game this year and I am speaking from first hand experience.

Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.

Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.

Lnc is on campus

Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.

I've been saying this for years. Better to concentrate all of the athletic facilities in one area than have them all over the place. It would also be great for on-campus events.

I become to believe that this new site would be a good 10 to 15-year solution while the school tries to come up with a good on-campus plan.

I also very strongly believe that TIF (tax) dollars should not be funding this.

I become to believe that this new site would be a good 10 to 15-year solution while the school tries to come up with a good on-campus plan.

I also very strongly believe that TIF (tax) dollars should not be funding this.

What does the city do with the arena if/when OU decides to move back to campus? Does it become solely a concert or events venue? Does Norman have a need for a 8-10k seat venue?

A good case study for Norman to look at is Spirit Bank Arena in Bixby and how well it's doing..

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/big-events-no-longer-scheduled-at-spiritbank-event-center-in/article_fdb21bc8-3359-5080-ad5b-ea843208b23c.html

The arena would be owned by the private developer and I'm sure they would have a lease agreement with OU (and likely others) for an extended period which would probably come close to paying it off.

By then, even occasional use would be enough to keep it afloat.

I took some time before coming on board with moving the basketball arena, but came to believe the upsides outweighed staying at the LNC. An article in today's paper took a look at the non action since the arena plans were announced. Also an examination of TIF both the proposed and existing one are discussed. A must read for Normanites.
http://www.normantranscript.com/news/local_news/still-no-movement-on-arena-tif-proposal/article_c9212211-4f24-51d5-89cf-c38266aa0b96.html

What does the city do with the arena if/when OU decides to move back to campus? Does it become solely a concert or events venue? Does Norman have a need for a 8-10k seat venue?

A good case study for Norman to look at is Spirit Bank Arena in Bixby and how well it's doing..

http://www.tulsaworld.com/businesshomepage1/big-events-no-longer-scheduled-at-spiritbank-event-center-in/article_fdb21bc8-3359-5080-ad5b-ea843208b23c.html

Comparing a town of 25k to Norman? I think Norman could quite easily use this arena for concerts, high school athletic events, govt./corporate bookings.

Lnc is on campus

You know what I mean. LNC is completely disconnected from the main campus. Not many students will ever make the long walk to the LNC because of its unwalkability — it’s not useful, safe, comfortable, or interesting (see Speck’s definition).

Comparing a town of 25k to Norman? I think Norman could quite easily use this arena for concerts, high school athletic events, govt./corporate bookings.

101st & Memorial in Bixby is adjacent to Tulsa and has over 400k people in a 10 mile radius.

Of course students don’t walk to Lloyd Noble. That’s why they should actually build the arena on campus. The parking lot east of the football stadium and next to the track field would be a great location.

Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium. There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game. I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come.
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).

^

Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.

I would certainly go more and I went to almost every single home game as a student and had season tickets for a long time after. I have zero affection for LNC and it just sits in a sea of asphalt with no connection to anything. Plus the facility itself is not purpose built for basketball and having gone to the newish 10K arena at USC, the difference is absolutely stunning and better in every possible way.

101st & Memorial in Bixby is adjacent to Tulsa and has over 400k people in a 10 mile radius.

And that population is rather affluent as well.

It is in the epicenter or the boomingest part of Tulsa at the moment. South Memorial in Tulsa is unrecognizable compared to just 10 years ago. I personally remember going to Starworld Theater when it was "out in the country".

Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.
This would make a huge difference for me and my friends. Plus, LNC just sucks.

^

Not mention that their largest fanbase is in OKC and that move would shave a good chunk of time and hassle out of the trip.
Even for the student population, most students do not live on the campus itself.

Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium. There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game. I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come.
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).Regardless it’s part of the school and the students should have the option of walking to buildings and areas that are made more walkable. Real world experience currently tells me most students at universities want to walk and bikers, not drive to, buildings on campus or that should be on campus.

Real world experience of attending games and living here for 40 years leaves me skeptical of this idea. Student attendance at football games has been on the decline for years as well as for basketball. Basketball season runs through some of the coldest months in Oklahoma, and to think students will walk there because it is "safe and interesting" is wishful thinking. There are less and less students walking to the football stadium. There is no comfort in 30 degree weather for an 8 pm Tuesday night game. I really believe that you need to market the games more for the greater fan base than to locate the arena where a couple thousand (at best) might come.
If you move it off campus, the adults in attendance can enjoy an adult beverage as well ( fan friendly amenity).

My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7181a5_5ab6b9092350466abd4ebcc1b154140c.pdf here is the master plan from www.universitynorthpark.com

^ not sure if there is any new info here

I love seeing that the Town Center is under development...yeah, since 2008!

They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.

This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.

My real world experience contradicts yours as I walked to every football home game between 2000-2011 wherever I lived in Norman (save one year out of Norman) and never walked to a single basketball game. Every football game day I see hundreds of people walking from all over. Yes, I do think tons of people will talk to games. It's not going to happen in Norman between the main campus and the LNC, but all evidence suggests that tempeture does not dissuade people from walking/biking in actual walkable environments. Tons of cold places on earth have huge numbers of pedestrian and bike commuters. It's all about building it. Anyway, I do think an on campus basketball arena would help bring more students to games. Just my opinion.

This is obvious imo. Im sure if you looked at all D1 schools that have on campus arenas vs off campus and their attendance, on campus would be higher. And hard to measure but the tougher playing environments have to be from on campus arenas that have solid student fan attendance.


They are really lobbying for a big TIF to fund the arena in their proposed Entertainment District.

This would be on top of the TIF they already have for that entire development.

Why bother with a fund raising campaign or raising student fees again when you can just have local taxpayers pick up the tab without their say so.

A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.

As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.

A reminder that a key requirement of any TIF district in Oklahoma as set by law is that the area be 'blighted'.

As you can see, we have completely bastardized that stipulation and intent over and over again.

Where is that requirement in the statute?

Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."

Noticing a lot of signs around town for "Yes! UNP!" and "Stop TIF for UNP. Balance the Budget."

I'm sure its a done deal. Really wish the city would pump the brakes on this. It seems like more of the same. Looking back at what was promised and what has been delivered is so disappointing. No reason this is not going to turn out the same way.

UNP seems like from a commercial standpoint it has been very successful. I know the hard urbanists here would rather there be no parking and it look like a 1940 downtown, but the truth is that you can spend all day there and for the most part walk and shop the whole time. For being in a city of 100,000 people, it always seems very busy. And they keep adding national brands new to OK, or OKC, especially eating establishments. It seems like a great spot to add the entertainment module with a mid-sized arena.

^On the weekends, it's almost too busy. I went to get some carryout at Torchy's one weekend a few months back and traffic was pretty bad. Looked like Austin. I actually saved time by heading north to Tecumseh, then heading back south on Flood on my way home. Just as an aside, I think the 2015 estimate of Norman's population is over 120,000 now.

I have heard and read though that Norman serves as a shopping stop for the smaller communities surrounding it, especially on the southern sides - Noble, Goldsby, Washington, Little Axe and Purcell, among others. This might explain some of the weekend influx of traffic, especially on the weekends.

fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place. I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.

Right, but the effect is still the same.

One huge problem with these sorts of subsidies is that they are very unfair to competitors.

Going slightly off-topic, but has anyone else seen the CarMax being constructed in the area? Seems like a much smaller footprint than all the Carmax locations I’ve seen. Is this something that they are doing for new locations going forward?

If it had been built 5 years previous, it would have been built as promised, I believe. They just have the town center in the master plan. The economic recession and oil price drop hurt this development a lot.

Then the Foundation should at least admit that this is the same situation. The economic numbers presented by the Foundation seem to be super inflated. They assume that all new residents to the area will be 1) new to Norman, and 2) have an income 33% greater than the current average income. Even if its built as stated, which I believe is highly unlikely given the track record, I have no doubt it will continue to poach existing businesses. If housing is actually completed this time, I have no doubt those will also poach from the rest of Norman as well, and not be new to the city.

^

Right, the underlying assumptions of the benefits of subsidies are rarely challenged and often put forth in glossy presentations that frequently provide only one side and are based on premises that cannot be proven.

And communities often employ full-time economic development staff who have every motivation to get such incentives passed. Makes them look good in their job and doesn't cost them anything. IMO, it's a fundamentally flawed approach which is why I write about it so much.

fwiw, you could fit way more people and stores there if it was a truly walkable people place. I don't think any urbanist type would say that UTC is not successful, but boy could it have been a better/more profitable experience if it had been designed better.

More profitable how?

The main issue was that this was pitched as a big lifestyle center with high-retailers and it's just turned into more of the same big-box type places, all competiting with existing businesses and using tax subsidies to do so.

Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available. Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.

What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?

Seems like there are tons of new concepts in Norman now and an overall improvement of goods and services available. Seems like more and better is a good thing for Norman.

What has the net effect been on sales tax so far?

We're talking about taxpayer subsidies. Impossible to prove that all or most of this wouldn't have happened without those public gifts. And before anyone agrues "No way you can prove it would have" I will point one the burden of proof is on those advocating for millions of tax dollars being spent in this way.

Especially since Norman, Moore and almost everywhere in OKC is seeing a commercial boom and 99.8% of that development does not receive public assistance of any kind.

More profitable how?

I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided. People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores. Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

I have no data to back this up but it seems as though it would be more profitable due to more shops/more people/"better" experience per amount of infrastructure (parking lots, streets, lighting, plumming, etc) provided. People would be more likely to stick around and meander from place to place, perhaps visiting stores they wouldn't enter unless they just happened to be passing by. Perhaps folk wopuld be more inclined to buy, say, an ice cream cone or coffee as an extra expense as they strolled to their stores. Purely speculation so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.

Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.

actually what has been built was never the life style center

Agreed. I've never eaten at Tuckers, Torchy's, Zoe's Red Rock, and then thought about walking around the strip mall. Likewise, if I go to Target or Crest, that's the only place I go. I'd much rather drive home and walk my neighborhood, than walk through parking lots. This was sold as a lifestyle center, and I think of that as similar to the Domain in Austin, which once you get into the shopping/restaurant area you want to walk from place to place. There's shade, nice wide sidewalks, and plenty of spaces where the street is narrowed for pedestrian crossings. We got none of that. I haven't been shown that this development will be any more. We'll get an arena on a prime piece of land surrounded by parking. No thanks.

actually what has been built was never the life style center

Has anybody heard a date on when the Carmax is supposed to open? It seems like they broke ground on it a long while ago.

Hiring started about 15 days ago so I would imagine they will be up before the end of Summer.

It looked like they were putting a top layer of asphalt down when I went by there yesterday evening so it should be really close.

I could see World Market fill in a spot here. Their spot in Tulsa is similar (large strip of stores). I could also see a Container Store opening in Norman. Especially if the ones in OKC does well.

I could see World Market fill in a spot here. Their spot in Tulsa is similar (large strip of stores). I could also see a Container Store opening in Norman. Especially if the ones in OKC does well.

Has anybody been to one of those Rooms To Go you see down along I35 in TX? Maybe one of those would be a good addition. Also, why wouldn't IKEA want to open up shop in the metro?

Has anybody been to one of those Rooms To Go you see down along I35 in TX? Maybe one of those would be a good addition. Also, why wouldn't IKEA want to open up shop in the metro?

because OKC isn't a big enough market for them and our state is already split between two stores that would notice the decline in sales if they were to build one here... people in OKC go to the one in frisco, and I know a bunch of people in Tulsa who go to the one just north of Overland Park KS. And both of these stores know it, Frisco has been offering free delivery (on purchases over a certain amount) on items to OKC for awhile now... and last time I was at the one in Kansas, they were offering the same. It's not like Ikea isn't getting the business... so the question is would they really get that much more if they were to build one here, knowing it would affect sales at two other stores... all my opinion, of course

because OKC isn't a big enough market for them and our state is already split between two stores that would notice the decline in sales if they were to build one here... people in OKC go to the one in frisco, and I know a bunch of people in Tulsa who go to the one just north of Overland Park KS. And both of these stores know it, Frisco has been offering free delivery (on purchases over a certain amount) on items to OKC for awhile now... and last time I was at the one in Kansas, they were offering the same. It's not like Ikea isn't getting the business... so the question is would they really get that much more if they were to build one here, knowing it would affect sales at two other stores... all my opinion, of course

Ah, well for me personally IKEA is not worth the drive to either Frisco or KS. And really I don't feel there is anything worth the hassle of driving near Dallas.. but that too is my opinion. I would definitely shop IKEA if it were in the state, more so if it was in the metro.

https://newsok.com/article/5602520/ou-foundation-withdraws-arena-plans