Bingo. You've answered your own questions. For urban-focused, modestly educated, moderately progressive people, living in OKC is a challenge. My theory is that OKC is actually the most progressive place in the state, but the state itself is so miserably backward that it is pulling OKC down. I should add that I earnestly hope this is true, though I'm often confronted with things in OKC that challenge this thinking.

When you say the state is backward that suggests a negative attitude to everyone and everything here. I agree that our state legislature seems to spend 90% of their time working on conservative social agendas instead of things that will actually benefit our state but that shouldn't reflect on the whole state. I agree it is a drag on OKC though. When we are trying to impress national retailers, Sally Kern is putting us in a big whole.

Spartan, you're not reading what I'm saying. I'm not talking about comparing the current development in the cities listed. I'm talking about city zoning, ordinances, requirements that make a difference. You keep talking like the city government is responsible for this because of a lack of something

The city government IS responsible for the difference. I outlined the problems with OKC's city planning, and I think I made the case pretty solidly that OKC's development is very sub-par compared to Tulsa/Dallas/KC/etc. So the question is, do you want it to be Soonerguru's theory that it's a cultural and educational deficiency with OKC, or do you want it to be my theory that it's a city planning deficiency? I can tell you that a problem with planning policy is a lot easier to fix.

Or maybe I didn't make the connection between those other cities' higher quality development and their planning departments? Well I can tell you that Tulsa has been getting rid of development requirements, and they recently did away with the parking requirement and also with city ordinances against neon signage (ironic for such an art deco city). Houston also has by-far more sophisticated retail development (much higher standard than Dallas, imo) and Houston is famous for ZERO zoning ordinances. That's the way to be in my opinion. So yeah, because Houston has no zoning it probably contributed to sprawl--but it also gave Houston developers wiggle room within the Inner Loop to do whatever they want and today Houston has a serious leg-up with mixed-use development in my opinion.

I'm not an expert on Dallas and KC planning regulations but I can imagine that the higher land values are a big factor and that with KC, governments are more likely to get involved in development. Sort of the opposite of OKC where commissions feel compelled to stay out of development even if development is their mission (ie DDR v. SandRidge), despite the crappy development guidelines OKC has in place.

To answer. No. I know you're a Republican apologist, but it's really not about party politics. Look around a bit and you might get an idea.

It's not snobbery. There's nothing wholesome and all-American about ignorance and illiteracy. Unfortunately, our state has both of those in spades. This has nothing to do with "snobs back east."

I've looked around here for 50 years and lived in several other locations around the country - have you? Sure, OK is a more conservative state than others but it's also NOT as conservative as others that have the kinds of retail this thread is all about. Why we don't have some chain brans has got nothing to do with politics or morals or your perception of backward-thinking and everything to do with economic perception and demographics. If the chain management felt like they could make a buck in David Koresh' compound, they would put a store there. Right now, they don't feel like they can make a buck.

As far as your political jab, I am as much of a Republican apoligist as you are a Democratic party-line operative but again, this thread has nothing to do with politics. You just seemed to feel the need to throw in your political viewpoints as somehow being right-minded and "forward thinking" when then are nothing more than Democratic party line. Obviously terms put in the party talking points to present the positions as having some sort of morally and intellectually superior status to make supporters feel better about themselves.

To the contrary, a lot of people in this part of the world (and I'm a native) are very suspicious of educated people. This isn't very attractive to other educated people. They tend to move where other really educated people are, just to break it down a bit.

Sooner, I'm also a native college educated citizen who has lived here all of my life. Maybe you meet different people than I do, but I don't ever remember anyone who was suspicious of educated people. Maybe it just depends on how you try to relate to people with less education.

Let's please stop comparing OKC (1.3 million) do DFW (6.7 million). That's a giant difference.

Now, as for Tulsa. Utica Square has a good thing going. We need something similar and won't me surprised to see it come about in the near future. We have the market.

As for Whole Foods? Let's not go there. You cannot count that against OKC. Ask Whole Foods. They're the ones dragging their feet.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a very great start.

IMAX has a location in Quail Springs Mall.

And KC is almost twice the size of OKC's market. So again, comparisons are pointless. KC and Dallas are both well-established markets. OKC is just getting started.

I am of the impression that we've taken the good ol' "We're not gonna maker it... poor us" approach.

I do agree, however, that local developers need to be nailed to the wall. They are partially responsible for a city's quaility of life, bottom line or not. We are just being vocal in the wrong place... an internet message board that they a) don't give a crap about and b) don't even know about.

Pulse.. I've told you this a lot of times, you need to be more critical sometimes. But nonetheless congrats for making a post without claiming that Tuscana is underway, which it isn't..

As for the DFW/OKC comparisons, I believe they are incredibly valid. Is planning an entirely different ball game in Dallas? Different concepts and fundamentals? The answer is no, and you know that.

If Whole Foods is dragging their feet on coming to OKC it's because they saw for themselves the dearth of quality development in OKC, and can you blame them? From their perspective, OKC probably looks like some crappy generic city like Wichita, especially coming from Austin. They can settle for Nashville, Birmingham, Tulsa, etc.. but not OKC. As for IMAX you know very well that the Quail Springs movie theater is an AMC, not an IMAX. Just because you have one screen that is an IMAX doesn't make it an IMAX Theater. The one in Tulsa is an IMAX, not an AMC. Big difference.

Spring Creek in Edmond is a nice development, but it's small. If someone could do a bigger version of that project that was actually in OKC, not Edmond, it would be a great start for OKC retail.

__________________


Spartan, I don't know why you LOL at Nichols Hills Plaza. It has the ideal location and the perimeter is a good size. If some infill were added, and it were spruced up and modernized, and marketed agressively, there's no reason it couldn't turn into a Utica Square. Obviously it's not there right now. I likewise think Western from 36th practically all the way to Wilshire has similiarly good bones. It just takes people doing it rather than talking about it like we all tend to do. (I'm as guilty as anybody).

Nichols Hills Plaza is an ugly development, honestly. The SW portion is actually aesthetically pleasing, but it's very small. The drab brown brick with no detail is really ugly and disappointing for what really is a GREAT location that Nichols Hills Plaza just wastes.

As for Western Avenue, it WILL develop into something like Brookside or maybe even nicer if the city EVER got serious about it. They need to do a cohesive streetscape and create a well-defined extensive public space that is pleasant and stimulates development. That would go a long ways, and I've been told for a long time that the city is planning a Western Ave streetscape but I have yet to see it. Let me know if it ever happens..

The city government IS responsible for the difference. I outlined the problems with OKC's city planning, and I think I made the case pretty solidly that OKC's development is very sub-par compared to Tulsa/Dallas/KC/etc. So the question is, do you want it to be Soonerguru's theory that it's a cultural and educational deficiency with OKC, or do you want it to be my theory that it's a city planning deficiency? I can tell you that a problem with planning policy is a lot easier to fix.

Or maybe I didn't make the connection between those other cities' higher quality development and their planning departments? Well I can tell you that Tulsa has been getting rid of development requirements, and they recently did away with the parking requirement and also with city ordinances against neon signage (ironic for such an art deco city). Houston also has by-far more sophisticated retail development (much higher standard than Dallas, imo) and Houston is famous for ZERO zoning ordinances. That's the way to be in my opinion. So yeah, because Houston has no zoning it probably contributed to sprawl--but it also gave Houston developers wiggle room within the Inner Loop to do whatever they want and today Houston has a serious leg-up with mixed-use development in my opinion.

I'm not an expert on Dallas and KC planning regulations but I can imagine that the higher land values are a big factor and that with KC, governments are more likely to get involved in development. Sort of the opposite of OKC where commissions feel compelled to stay out of development even if development is their mission (ie DDR v. SandRidge), despite the crappy development guidelines OKC has in place.

Spartan, are you saying that Tulsa now requires no parking at all for businesses?
I will never agree that no zoning, like Houston has, promotes anything like a great urban area. The booming economy that Houston has enjoyed for years has much more to do with that. If Dallas and Kansas City have higher land values than OKC how can that be the fault of city planners?
I'm not trying to make excuses for everything that the city does because I know they make mistakes, I just don't think they can be blamed for everything like you're trying to do.

I've looked around here for 50 years and lived in several other locations around the country - have you? Sure, OK is a more conservative state than others but it's also NOT as conservative as others that have the kinds of retail this thread is all about. Why we don't have some chain brans has got nothing to do with politics or morals or your perception of backward-thinking and everything to do with economic perception and demographics. If the chain management felt like they could make a buck in David Koresh' compound, they would put a store there. Right now, they don't feel like they can make a buck.

As far as your political jab, I am as much of a Republican apoligist as you are a Democratic party-line operative but again, this thread has nothing to do with politics. You just seemed to feel the need to throw in your political viewpoints as somehow being right-minded and "forward thinking" when then are nothing more than Democratic party line. Obviously terms put in the party talking points to present the positions as having some sort of morally and intellectually superior status to make supporters feel better about themselves.

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.

And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

Wow..Just..Wow..!!

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.


You realize that it's an extremely offensive idea that Christians and conservatives are the opposite of smart and entrepreneurial? I would argue (from within the young Christian community) that a large part of the young Christians in this city are growing up to be a sophisticated, educated, creative, productive group that is also very active in international humanitarian efforts- they are people who look a lot like the secular liberals who are apparently adored by smart people and entrepreneurs everywhere. I know of many people my age who qualify as young urban creative professionals (that's the demographic that draws more people in!) who are also dedicated Christians.

Christianity doesn't have to be linked to rednecks, Sally Kern, and conservatism.

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

What's relevant here is that Oklahoma needs to be an attractive place for smart people and entrepreneurs to live, not just bible-thumping conservatives.

And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

Jacksonville, FL is just as conservative and just as uneducated as OKC and we have a WholeFoods and several Native Sun's.

Native Sun Natural Foods Market - A little different. A lot better. (http://www.nativesunjax.com/index.asp)

Why don't some of you get together, pool your money, and see if you can open a Native Sun in OKC. All this pissing and moaning that some large company won't do something for you is getting a little old.

Pulse.. I've told you this a lot of times, you need to be more critical sometimes.

I was very critical of Belle Isle Station when they put that crap in, but that was 10 years ago. Time to move on. I emailed Randy Hogan and told him I thought he could have done much better with Lower Bricktown. Should OKC adopt better standards for developments? You bet.

I just simply prefer focusing on OKC tomorrow, not focus on past mistakes.


But nonetheless congrats for making a post without claiming that Tuscana is underway, which it isn't..

Then you can call the owners and ask them, because that is what I did after I had a suspicion that the development died. They told me otherwise.


As for the DFW/OKC comparisons, I believe they are incredibly valid. Is planning an entirely different ball game in Dallas? Different concepts and fundamentals? The answer is no, and you know that.

When we are comparing amenities offered in a metro area six times the size of OKC, I don't know how you call that a valid comparison. Maybe I am misunderstanding your approach, but we can't offer 10 major malls and as many lifestyle centers to a population of 1.3 million.

If you're speaking in terms of quality, then okay, I see where you are coming from.


If Whole Foods is dragging their feet on coming to OKC it's because they saw for themselves the dearth of quality development in OKC, and can you blame them?

Whole Foods doesn't base their locations on the dearth of quality development. Is Whole Foods in Tulsa around any quality development? No. Granted, that was a Wild Oats location beforehand.


As for IMAX you know very well that the Quail Springs movie theater is an AMC, not an IMAX. Just because you have one screen that is an IMAX doesn't make it an IMAX Theater. The one in Tulsa is an IMAX, not an AMC. Big difference.

Seriously? An IMAX theater is an IMAX. If there is an IMAX projector and screen, it's an IMAX. The one in Tulsa is a part of Cinemark. But anyway, you and I both agree OKC needs better development, but I feel OKC deserves better development.


Spring Creek in Edmond is a nice development, but it's small. If someone could do a bigger version of that project that was actually in OKC, not Edmond, it would be a great start for OKC retail.

The same developers that built Spring Creek are also behind the Tuscana project. They are RCL Development.

I very much agree with you on this one. It would be great for OKC. If RCL can't pull it off, then it's time for the OKC C of C to actively seek a developer that can.

So are you arguing that smart people aren't drawn to communities where smart people cluster? If you are, you're wrong.

What in the world is your definition of 'smart people"? Smart doesn't necessarily mean educated. EDUCATED people tend to cluster in communities that are centers of learning, yes. EDUCATED people tend to cluster in areas where there is special industry (such as Los Alamos, Silicon Valley, Austin, or Huntsville).


I'm a big-time OKC booster, but I'm also not in denial. Our state's overall conservatism is a drag on attracting smart people. I'm sure you'll argue this point, but only because you're a Republican.

Oklahoma has no fewer "smart" people, proportionately, than anywhere else in the country. It's statistically impossible unless there are other factors (such as chemical or environmental) that might cause it. Oklahoma has less EDUCATED people which, again, are two different things. Is our state's economy behind that of most of the country? Yes, but it is EDUCATION, not intelligence. Go look up the definitions in the dictionary, unless, as a Democrat you think you know it all already.


And your point about "morally superior" is abjectly absurd, particularly considering the self-righteous wingers who run this state.

Which just proved my point that you, as a leftist, feel yourself to be morally and mentally superior to people on the right. Read what you just said. Simply because people on the right have other opinions than yourself, you castigate them as self-righteous. The right believes they are right (meaning "correct") while the left believes THEY are. Thats all it is. But when you can't argue a point factually without resorting to demeaning names, insults and contradictions of thought it shows you have no room for anyone other than those who believe exactly as you do. That's called close-mindedness and those on both extremes are guilty of it.

The same developers that built Spring Creek are also behind the Tuscana project. They are RCL Development.

I very much agree with you on this one. It would be great for OKC. If RCL can't pull it off, then it's time for the OKC C of C to actively seek a developer that can.

I dont think thats right. Spring Creek Village, on the NW corner, was developed by Ballinger and Spring Creek Plaza which is on the NE corner was done by Ward/Zerby.

The Tuscana project does nothing for me personally due to location. It might as well be in Tulsa or DFW., but it would be a nice get for Okc.

I dont think thats right. Spring Creek Village, on the NW corner, was developed by Ballinger and Spring Creek Plaza which is on the NE corner was done by Ward/Zerby.

You are correct. It was Massey-Mann that did the designing for Spring Creek and Tuscana.

I stand corrected.

Spartan, are you saying that Tulsa now requires no parking at all for businesses?
I will never agree that no zoning, like Houston has, promotes anything like a great urban area. The booming economy that Houston has enjoyed for years has much more to do with that. If Dallas and Kansas City have higher land values than OKC how can that be the fault of city planners?
I'm not trying to make excuses for everything that the city does because I know they make mistakes, I just don't think they can be blamed for everything like you're trying to do.
Houston has no zoning is a fallacy....
Certain areas of Houston have zoning and other areas may not have "official zoning" but have a ton of restrictions on them to effectively be called zoning. Try building a plant in the Montrose area...you would see real quick that there is "effective zoning" in Houston. Even a "nice" office building can have a hard time getting through the approval process in certain areas.

Houston has no zoning is a fallacy....
Certain areas of Houston have zoning and other areas may not have "official zoning" but have a ton of restrictions on them to effectively be called zoning. Try building a plant in the Montrose area...you would see real quick that there is "effective zoning" in Houston. Even a "nice" office building can have a hard time getting through the approval process in certain areas.

I'm not personally familiar with Houston's zoning or lack of zoning. I was responding to Spartan's statement that Houston didn't have zoning and his opinion that it was a plus that OKC should follow.

Another Roderick puppet? I'm so sick of people thinking they can throw around random words like "Fuktard" where it is completely unnecessary just because it's an "internet message board." If a courtroom is the only place you don't act and talk like you do, that says a lot about you. I'll say it again, it's clear you need to grow-up. Wanting to see a successful city forum free from juvenile crassness is not being "wound too tight."

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

I don't think many people here would agree with you on that. I fail to see how wanting a place for civil discussion with fellow OKC'ers is stuffy or condescending in anyway. This community is entitled to set the tone for these boards as it sees fit. If it doesn't want this place to devolve into the newsok comments sections, that is well within its right.

ugh, get over yourself. The general condescending, stuffy, self-inflated yuppie attitude around this board believe it or not turns away many more would-be posters than the occasional slang term thrown out there. Have a good day. And yes as much as you hate to admit it, this is just a message board where the gloves are off. If it is more than that to you then you may want to look into making more friends.

Chuck, the word you're referring to is not a slang term. It is profanity which has no place here. Remember there are minors who read these posts frequently. We don't want to give the impression that we approve. Being stuffy has nothing to do with it.

Chuckdiesel clearly hasn't been on this board long if he thinks it's a message board "where the gloves are off." Until recently, this board had few if any flareups. It was actually one of the most civil message boards on the Internet.

Chuckdiesel clearly hasn't been on this board long if he thinks it's a message board "where the gloves are off." Until recently, this board had few if any flareups. It was actually one of the most civil message boards on the Internet.

I agree Sooner. Many of us disagree vigorously but it usually is at least civil. I hope this never becomes a "gloves off" board.

This might be part of why OKC is behind with retail

Per capita income

Oklahoma County: $41,713
Tulsa County: $46,043

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/states-08-personal-income-increased/article/3456578)

This might be part of why OKC is behind with retail

Per capita income

Oklahoma County: $41,713
Tulsa County: $46,043

NewsOK (http://newsok.com/states-08-personal-income-increased/article/3456578)

That's not true swake--there are still as many "higher demographic" people in OKC as Tulsa even if Tulsa is slightly smaller. You can even throw out Tulsa's slightly lower cost of living as well... Philly's avg income is like $29,000, and they have all the stores we want to attract. Cleveland, Memphis, San Antonio, New Orleans, etc (poorer cities)--all have their share of stores we want, too. Red herring.

The simple matter of the fact is that OKC's available retail development looks like crap compared to what's all over Tulsa/KC, and hell, even San Antonio (La Canterra) to some extent. How much longer is our excuse going to be, "OMG that city is 19.43843543% bigger than OKC! Apples and oranges!"

That's not true swake...

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL


Personal income grew 6 percent during 2008 in Oklahoma County to an amount of $41,713 per capita, the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce, indicates. The numbers are the latest available.

Oklahoma County was second only to Tulsa County, where personal income rose 4.8 percent to $46,043. The lowest in the state was Adair County at $22,402.

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

Larry, I think what Spartan means is that the exact numbers of higher demograpic people in OKC is more than Tulsa. Having a higher per capital income is totally different.

The key is not in the AVERAGE, but how many of a certain demographic. OKC has plenty at the higher demographics..just as many as Tulsa. I know Tulsans like to keep thinking themselves superior, so if it makes them feel good...great.

Oklahoma County includes plenty of rural area with lower income and doesn't include Cleveland county which includes a high income area (Norman).

Truth is different depending on where you want to draw the lines.

There is probably something to the lack of quality shopping centers. Jacksonville didn't have squat for retail until a few years ago when the St. Johns Town Center was built. High end retailers flocked to the site after it was built. We still don't have them all, but we have most. Jacksonville, is just as conservative, just as rural, just as poor, and just as ???? as OKC is. The difference is Jax has a quality development for these stores to move into.

Let's say White House/Black Market did want to open in OKC tomorrow - where would they locate? Until a local developer steps up to the plate and creates a place, I don't think OKC will see anything. 'Build it and they will come' may or may not be true - but one thing is for sure - 'don't build it and they won't come' is 100% true.

Kerry, they'd probably locate in Norman, because we already have two WHBM (one in penn and one in Edmond's Spring Creek).

There is probably something to the lack of quality shopping centers. Jacksonville didn't have squat for retail until a few years ago when the St. Johns Town Center was built. High end retailers flocked to the site after it was built. We still don't have them all, but we have most. Jacksonville, is just as conservative, just as rural, just as poor, and just as ???? as OKC is. The difference is Jax has a quality development for these stores to move into.

Let's say White House/Black Market did want to open in OKC tomorrow - where would they locate? Until a local developer steps up to the plate and creates a place, I don't think OKC will see anything. 'Build it and they will come' may or may not be true - but one thing is for sure - 'don't build it and they won't come' is 100% true.
Some of that is very true, The Domain here was developed by Endeavor, a local developer of ex-Trammell Crow Co. people who got Simon to sign on the dotted line and developed it for Simon, which is how they operate most of the time. Simon doesn't develop, they get others to do a "turn-key" development. Simon owns/controls the retail portion of The Domain and Endeavor controls the other portion with the office and hotels. There were also city incentives involved in the project which was a brownfield redevelopment of an old IBM manufacturing facility. We have to fill out an "employment statement" every quarter for Simon that they have to turn into the city.

If someone has the right plan in place to attract a Simon, then it would be possible to get the proper kind of development in place. It is a chicken/egg thing for the most part.

Kerry, they'd probably locate in Norman, because we already have two WHBM (one in penn and one in Edmond's Spring Creek).

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

I get your point, Kerry. And yes, you are right. There's nowhere for a nice upscale chain store to locate in OKC right now. We are the largest city in this region without a large lifestyle center.

LOL - bad example I guess - but you get the point.

Of course, just a :LolLolLol moment.

Saw this in todays OKC Biz.



http://okc.biz/article/04-27-2010/State_s_first_Vans_coming_to_Penn_Square.aspx

Saw this in todays OKC Biz.



http://okc.biz/article/04-27-2010/State_s_first_Vans_coming_to_Penn_Square.aspx

Is it this Vans? The picture in the OKC Biz story sure doesn't fit the Vans I've heard of, which is a teen shop:


Vans is an American based manufacturer of sneakers, BMX shoes, snowboarding boots, skateboarding and other shoe types catering primarily to the skateboarder/surfer/snowboarder youth market. They also sell apparel and accessories catering to this same youth market. Vans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vans)

Yes, Vans is a very popular brand and has been for decades. Even 30-40 year olds wear it because they've been around so long. They sponsor the popular annual Vans Off The Wall Tour as well.

What about median household income? Which is a better figure of comparison? I always understood that median figures were better for this type of comparison because it eliminated the effects of outliers- and I think Tulsa has a lot more super-rich outliers that skew its numbers up.

Tulsa
Estimated median household income in 2008: $39,657 (it was $35,316 in 2000)

OKC
Estimated median household income in 2008: $43,821 (it was $34,947 in 2000)

(city-data.com)

Yes, Vans is a very popular brand and has been for decades. Even 30-40 year olds wear it because they've been around so long. They sponsor the popular annual Vans Off The Wall Tour as well.

Well....of course!....who wouldn't know the Vans Off The Wall Tour? :wink:

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

No of course the stats are correct, but I was just saying it's not THE reason.

Read the linked article, it IS what it said. Now if you dispute the article, talk to the Oklahoman & "the Bureau of Economic Analysis, a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce"...LOL

On the other hand, we have significantly more people in our metropolitan area than in Tulsa. It might well be that we have more people in the aggregate with the kind of purchasing power these stores are looking for than Tulsa. That's something average income data doesn't help you determine.

No of course the stats are correct, but I was just saying it's not THE reason.

My bad. When you said "That's not true swake", right after the numbers he cited, thought you were saying the numbers were wrong.

ok, I found this interesting read from our friends up in Omaha: Trader Joe's plans Omaha store - Omaha.com (http://www.omaha.com/article/20100428/NEWS01/100429528/1029#trader-joe-s-plans-omaha-store)

Kudos to Omaha for the great expansion in retail options they are having and improving their quality of life; This all - despite being so close to the much larger Kansas City.

Oklahoma City is much larger than Omaha but OKC does have to contend with spillage from Dallas (which is much larger than KC).

Nonetheless, OMA is succeeding: Is there anything we can learn from Omaha, besides offering a ton of money to hire away their retail marketing manager, Wendy Chapman.?

I do know that the Anthropologie store in Omaha is one of their worst performers. And I also know that the lack of an adequate facility open until 9 p.m. is one of the reasons we're still not on the slate to have an Anthropologie store here. They don't like to put their stores in big malls. I've only been to Omaha once in the past ten years, but they had a beautiful open air shopping center when I was there. Perhaps that's the location Trader Joe's is going in.

Actually, it looks like they now have a lifestyle center, and that's where Trader Joe's is going: http://www.broadmoor.cc/community.asp?ID=4

I do know that the Anthropologie store in Omaha is one of their worst performers. And I also know that the lack of an adequate facility open until 9 p.m. is one of the reasons we're still not on the slate to have an Anthropologie store here. They don't like to put their stores in big malls. I've only been to Omaha once in the past ten years, but they had a beautiful open air shopping center when I was there. Perhaps that's the location Trader Joe's is going in.

Actually, it looks like they now have a lifestyle center, and that's where Trader Joe's is going: One Pacific Place Apartments - Omaha, Nebraska - Broadmoor (http://www.broadmoor.cc/community.asp?ID=4) Actually, they have an Anthropologie store in Northpark Mall in Dallas. This is a 'huge' mall with 5 dept stores and about 250 other stores. Omaha seems to get better retail sooner than OKC. It may be due to them having so many Fortune 500 insurance companies and seems to have a lot of white collar jobs.

Anthropologie does have stores in malls, but they don't like to put them there. They like freestanding stores in lifestyle centers or outdoor malls. They've been to OKC, don't particularly want a store in Edmond and were considering Nichols Hills Plaza and Classen Curve. They have to stay open until 9, and there are no stores in Nichols Hills Plaza that do, and I think the store sizes and shapes in Classen Curve aren't really what they need. Yes, I've been to Northpark on many occasions, and I've shopped at Anthropologie there. But again, I also know that the Omaha Anthropologie store doesn't do that well in comparison to some of their other stores, so market research isn't everything. I'll be interested to see if Tulsa performs better than Omaha, and if we get a store, how we compare as well.

ok, I found this interesting read from our friends up in Omaha: Trader Joe's plans Omaha store - Omaha.com (http://www.omaha.com/article/20100428/NEWS01/100429528/1029#trader-joe-s-plans-omaha-store)

Kudos to Omaha for the great expansion in retail options they are having and improving their quality of life; This all - despite being so close to the much larger Kansas City.

Oklahoma City is much larger than Omaha but OKC does have to contend with spillage from Dallas (which is much larger than KC).

Nonetheless, OMA is succeeding: Is there anything we can learn from Omaha, besides offering a ton of money to hire away their retail marketing manager, Wendy Chapman.?

I say we hire Wendy Chapman, whomever is doing it here isn't cutting it from what we can tell. Seems like the leasing manager at Penn Square is doing better job than the person at the Chamber.


Actually, they have an Anthropologie store in Northpark Mall in Dallas. This is a 'huge' mall with 5 dept stores and about 250 other stores. Omaha seems to get better retail sooner than OKC. It may be due to them having so many Fortune 500 insurance companies and seems to have a lot of white collar jobs.

I do find it ironic that Omaha doesn't have a Macy's (where we have several), just got an Apple, J. Crew and Pottery Barn, all of which we've had for years. Also their Talbots closed while ours is thriving, as well as our J. Jill. It seems we have the ones they want and they have the ones we want, so Omaha isn't everything, they just have a good recruiter that is relentless and persistent. I wonder if our recruiter is persistent when we get shut down??


Sidenote: I just sent another email to Trader Joes about the Omaha news and how much more OKC could support one. I encourage everyone else to do so and flood them with emails. They have a form for location requests on their contact page.

Have to remember Macy's being here is a result of them buying Foley's and probably wouldn't be here if they hadn't done that (some have pointed out the same thing about Whole Foods and Tulsa, they bought out a store that was already there and just rebranded). So my guess is Omaha didn't have a Foley's?

They didn't just buy Foley's but other brands as well. So that means Omaha's department store selection was even less limited. Foley's was just regional.

I think Betts point is that Anthropologie would like to come to Oklahoma City, but there is no current location that fits where they would want to locate a store.

This is same song, fourteenth verse. Same story. You can't fault a retail development person from the chamber for lack of many of these larger stores because there simply. isn't. any. place. for. them. to. go.

For whatever reason, other cities have stepped up and built nice lifestyle centers (some more than one) and we haven't. All we keep hearing from Tuscana is that it's coming but they're going to build the residential first. Other cities have developers who are without excuses and they build. When I see retailers signing on the bottom line and announced in the business section of The Oklahoman, I'll take Tuscana seriously.

You would think North OKC/Edmond would make a perfect location for a large lifestyle center. Maybe there's one on the boards and it hasn't been announced. I would like to think somebody is getting it done. There's too big of a hole that needs filling.

Mike, so if that is the case, and I'd be willing to concede that as a good part of the problem, then why isn't the Chamber more heavily pressuring/attracting a developer to build such a development?

I think Betts point is that Anthropologie would like to come to Oklahoma City, but there is no current location that fits where they would want to locate a store.

This is same song, fourteenth verse. Same story. You can't fault a retail development person from the chamber for lack of many of these larger stores because there simply. isn't. any. place. for. them. to. go.

For whatever reason, other cities have stepped up and built nice lifestyle centers (some more than one) and we haven't. All we keep hearing from Tuscana is that it's coming but they're going to build the residential first. Other cities have developers who are without excuses and they build. When I see retailers signing on the bottom line and announced in the business section of The Oklahoman, I'll take Tuscana seriously.

You would think North OKC/Edmond would make a perfect location for a large lifestyle center. Maybe there's one on the boards and it hasn't been announced. I would like to think somebody is getting it done. There's too big of a hole that needs filling.

Bingo. They wouldn't be coming to Tulsa either but Harold's closing their Utica Square location opened up a vacancy. As I recall Penn Square, where Anthropologie would probably go, currently has no vacancies. There is a need either for an expansion of Penn Square or a new upscale lifestyle center which Classen Curve hopes to be.

And I am shocked Omaha is getting a Trader Joe's. That gives hope that other similar-sized and larger cities in the region will get one eventually.

Bingo. They wouldn't be coming to Tulsa either but Harold's closing their Utica Square location opened up a vacancy. As I recall Penn Square, where Anthropologie would probably go, currently has no vacancies. There is a need either for an expansion of Penn Square or a new upscale lifestyle center which Classen Curve hopes to be.

And I am shocked Omaha is getting a Trader Joe's. That gives hope that other similar-sized and larger cities in the region will get one eventually. I am not shocked at this at all! Omaha has several Fortune 500 companies and is very much a white collar city. See link below.


USATODAY.com - Omaha sprouts unlikely cash crop: Corporate titans (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2005-08-07-omaha-usat_x.htm)

I think Betts point is that Anthropologie would like to come to Oklahoma City, but there is no current location that fits where they would want to locate a store.

This is same song, fourteenth verse. Same story. You can't fault a retail development person from the chamber for lack of many of these larger stores because there simply. isn't. any. place. for. them. to. go.

For whatever reason, other cities have stepped up and built nice lifestyle centers (some more than one) and we haven't. All we keep hearing from Tuscana is that it's coming but they're going to build the residential first. Other cities have developers who are without excuses and they build. When I see retailers signing on the bottom line and announced in the business section of The Oklahoman, I'll take Tuscana seriously.

You would think North OKC/Edmond would make a perfect location for a large lifestyle center. Maybe there's one on the boards and it hasn't been announced. I would like to think somebody is getting it done. There's too big of a hole that needs filling.

This is what I've been thinking about:

We need the retail, period. But how do we get it downtown? If we can't get it downtown, do we give up, and push for lifestyle centers on the periphery which will be more likely to attract the stores? How do we balance this conundrum out?

The best I can think of is a lifestyle center somewhere between 23rd and I-44.. like Grant's former Crown Heights project that's now dead.

I am not shocked at this at all! Omaha has several Fortune 500 companies and is very much a white collar city. See link below.


USATODAY.com - Omaha sprouts unlikely cash crop: Corporate titans (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2005-08-07-omaha-usat_x.htm)

More shocked that Omaha was selected over Kansas City with twice the population. Though KC has Cosentino's downtown which is just as good if not better than Trader Joe's, and they are a local business.

http://www.cosentinos.com/

Remember though Nebraska does not have the liquor laws we do that are not enticing to these types of stores.

More shocked that Omaha was selected over Kansas City with twice the population. Though KC has Cosentino's downtown which is just as good if not better than Trader Joe's, and they are a local business.

Cosentino's Market - Kansas City (http://www.cosentinos.com/)

Remember though Nebraska does not have the liquor laws we do that are not enticing to these types of stores.

The Kansas City metro also has three Whole Foods stores.

The Kansas City metro also has three Whole Foods stores.

Omaha already has 1 Whole Foods. It's proportional.. OMA - 800,000k, KC - 2.1 mil.

I don't know why we couldn't build a lifestyle center near downtown. Surely there is land in or adjacent to Core to Shore that would be no more expensive to purchase than land near Quail Springs Mall or outlying areas. That is precisely what would bring retail to downtown, as it would create a location for it, with built in customers. As someone here said, we don't have the big old buildings downtown that could be used for retail. Bricktown probably shouldn't have the kind of stores you have in a lifestyle center, but we could create an area designed for retail, and which would give us additional near downtown housing of precisely the kind that works in an urban area.

As far as developers go, unfortunately we didn't get a lifestyle center built before the bust, and money for developments is hard to get right now. Most of these cities already had them. But, were I the city and/or chamber, that's what I would be looking for right now, as that's where retailers we want like to locate.

Not sure Anthropologie wants to go in Penn Square Mall. I've never heard they'd considered it, regardless of available space.