More Great News for Tulsa!!

This is the kind of developer that is needed in downtown OKC!

Sweet. Ambitious plan for Tulsa. I hope it comes through. I'd like to see some renderings however.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/articleimages/2010/20100502_A1_A1talaas0502.jpg

Look at all those vacant lots in DT Tulsa.

Everybody in this thread needs to chill. Why are we getting the big head in OKC? What have we accomplished? It is true, we've come longer than almost anyone in such a short time since we begun our revitalization--we were a pretty rough city back in 1990. That attitude and dedication that came out of desperation, especially after April 1995, is what carried this city to the top of "Tier 3" cities (Tulsa, Omaha, Louisville, Little Rock, etc).

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

If there is anything that has not changed at all since 1990, it's retail. Let's all take a step back and admit to ourselves what we have for retail, which aint ****. I'm not trying to insult people, but come on, admit it--even if it's beneath you to admit that Tulsa, Birmingham, and Richmond have better retail, you can at least admit that OKC should have much, much better retail.

Now look at Tulsa objectively, not as that other city in the state that you've probably never been to. Most of us here (that are sane) agree that OKC's problem in attracting the retailers we want is a lack of available space. Developers in our city are still not very close to developing a suitable space that these retailers can locate in. That's the truth. What this city has to offer, Classen Curve, Penn Square, 50 Penn Place--not exactly what Urban Outfitters is looking for, despite that most of them are interested in OKC. So the fact that Tulsa clearly has one of the best lifestyle centers (built in the early 20th Century, making it about 80 years ahead of its time) simply puts Tulsa in a different league than OKC. Also, having a Whole Foods (considering a "big league" retailer, kind of like having an NBA/NFL franchise in the retail world) puts Tulsa in a different league. Anthropologie is another one that says you've arrived (or it would for OKC).

As for this Talaas development, it's incredibly exciting and I'm very hopeful..although in years of watching DT Tulsa development just as I've watched OKC's, I've never seen a large-scale development in DT Tulsa that was successful. Tulsa Channels, Downtown River District/west bank thing, East End, Franklin Square, and so on.. I've seen about a dozen that got me excited and then disappointed me. DT Tulsa has been infinitely more successful than OKC with the smaller-scale projects though, just based on the track record, I just don't see a large-scale project coming off--though I'll be watching One Place closely, fingers crossed..so far so good.

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

Spartan, I don't think anyone here has ever said that this city's retail options are fine and that we shouldn't aspire for more. Of course we want as many options as possible. The main discussion should be about what the city, itself, and the general public can do to make that happen that they aren't already doing. You can't put a gun to a developer's head and say this is what you're going to build.

That's true. But maybe if we can at least put our finger on the obvious reason such retail is lacking here, maybe the Chamber's "specialist" working on it will figure it out eventually, too.

It is about time someone else gets it.


Although city approval would be needed for installation of the needed rails, the developers would pay the estimated $7 million cost, and the streetcar would be free to ride.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at Tulsa World: New group puts forth plan for East Village (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1)

Fair recovery on most transit systems is so low it cost more to collect money than if just let people ride for free and fund the operation thru advertising.

Everybody in this thread needs to chill. Why are we getting the big head in OKC? What have we accomplished? It is true, we've come longer than almost anyone in such a short time since we begun our revitalization--we were a pretty rough city back in 1990. That attitude and dedication that came out of desperation, especially after April 1995, is what carried this city to the top of "Tier 3" cities (Tulsa, Omaha, Louisville, Little Rock, etc).

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

If there is anything that has not changed at all since 1990, it's retail. Let's all take a step back and admit to ourselves what we have for retail, which aint ****. I'm not trying to insult people, but come on, admit it--even if it's beneath you to admit that Tulsa, Birmingham, and Richmond have better retail, you can at least admit that OKC should have much, much better retail.

Now look at Tulsa objectively, not as that other city in the state that you've probably never been to. Most of us here (that are sane) agree that OKC's problem in attracting the retailers we want is a lack of available space. Developers in our city are still not very close to developing a suitable space that these retailers can locate in. That's the truth. What this city has to offer, Classen Curve, Penn Square, 50 Penn Place--not exactly what Urban Outfitters is looking for, despite that most of them are interested in OKC. So the fact that Tulsa clearly has one of the best lifestyle centers (built in the early 20th Century, making it about 80 years ahead of its time) simply puts Tulsa in a different league than OKC. Also, having a Whole Foods (considering a "big league" retailer, kind of like having an NBA/NFL franchise in the retail world) puts Tulsa in a different league. Anthropologie is another one that says you've arrived (or it would for OKC).


Spartan's use of dishonest rhetorical devices (straw men, ad hominem attacks, made-up statistics) is quite remarkable. One gets the idea he is really auditioning for a job as a politician's speechwriter.

Spartan, were you even old enough to shop in the early 1990's? In case you don't remember other than BabyGap, Penn Square sucked back then. Simon has completely transformed it and continues to lure some high end retailers (Coach, Apple, WHBM, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc. etc.). As ljbab pointed out, no one is saying they are satisfied with our current retail selections and don't want anymore. FYI, we're getting a Container Store soon. You have to admit that Tulsa isn't that superior and we have options they don't and vice versa. Utica Square is old and could use some serious updating, especially the north end of the center. Saks is in an old dumpy building on the outside and there are vacant storefronts in the center. As someone stated, there is no waiting list, Harolds was empty for several years. It' ain't Dallas and if you're so moved by Tulsa, why don't you move there from Calgary and help Tulsa continue the momentum?


Oil Capital - Spartan's use of dishonest rhetorical devices (straw men, ad hominem attacks, made-up statistics) is quite remarkable. One gets the idea he is really auditioning for a job as a politician's speechwriter. :laughing_ Touche' - The word "touché" is also often used in popular culture and general conversation — for example, in an argument or debate — to commend someone on a clever response to an argument.

Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods?

Utica Square also has the Thursday evening concerts during the summer months, kind of like Jazz in June all summer long.

Utica Square is old and could use some serious updating, especially the north end of the center. Saks is in an old dumpy building on the outside and there are vacant storefronts in the center. As someone stated, there is no waiting list, Harolds was empty for several years. It' ain't Dallas and if you're so moved by Tulsa, why don't you move there from Calgary and help Tulsa continue the momentum?

:laughing_ Touche' - The word "touché" is also often used in popular culture and general conversation — for example, in an argument or debate — to commend someone on a clever response to an argument.

Old? Maybe Utica Square should take out some of the trees and cover the stonework with some nice EIFS. How about removing the wide covered sidewalks and add more parking. Man, Utica could be just as nice as any generic strip center in Edmond if just someone had some vision.

Utica is not run down, and Harrold's hasn't been closed for years, it closed early last year and Anthropolgie has been working on getting that space since last year, and it's the only unoccupied space in or even near the Square.

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/16011897/1860-Utica-Square-Tulsa-OK/


Nice word for word rip off of Wiki on the meaning of Touché too

Spartan, were you even old enough to shop in the early 1990's? In case you don't remember other than BabyGap, Penn Square sucked back then. Simon has completely transformed it and continues to lure some high end retailers (Coach, Apple, WHBM, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc. etc.). As ljbab pointed out, no one is saying they are satisfied with our current retail selections and don't want anymore. FYI, we're getting a Container Store soon. You have to admit that Tulsa isn't that superior and we have options they don't and vice versa. Utica Square is old and could use some serious updating, especially the north end of the center. Saks is in an old dumpy building on the outside and there are vacant storefronts in the center. As someone stated, there is no waiting list, Harolds was empty for several years. It' ain't Dallas and if you're so moved by Tulsa, why don't you move there from Calgary and help Tulsa continue the momentum?

:laughing_ Touche' - The word "touché" is also often used in popular culture and general conversation — for example, in an argument or debate — to commend someone on a clever response to an argument. Agree! Utica Square is ok nothing spectacular. Maybe for Tulsa it is spectacular but for Dallas or even OKC they have better and I believe OKC will have something more superior than US in the next 2 years.

Our infamous Tulsa poster returns. NHP isn't full of EIFS and I never stated it was better than Utica, but Spartan and you act as if Utica is Highland Park Village in Dallas. You're kidding yourself if Utica couldn't use updating, just like NHP will be getting. I doubt Anthropologie has been "dying" to get into Utica or Tulsa for that matter, rather the other way around.

Highland Park Village | Galleries | The Premier Shopping Experience of Dallas, Texas (http://www.hpvillage.com/galleries/)

Spartan, were you even old enough to shop in the early 1990's? In case you don't remember other than BabyGap, Penn Square sucked back then. Simon has completely transformed it and continues to lure some high end retailers (Coach, Apple, WHBM, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc. etc.). As ljbab pointed out, no one is saying they are satisfied with our current retail selections and don't want anymore. FYI, we're getting a Container Store soon. You have to admit that Tulsa isn't that superior and we have options they don't and vice versa. Utica Square is old and could use some serious updating, especially the north end of the center. Saks is in an old dumpy building on the outside and there are vacant storefronts in the center. As someone stated, there is no waiting list, Harolds was empty for several years. It' ain't Dallas and if you're so moved by Tulsa, why don't you move there from Calgary and help Tulsa continue the momentum?

Metro.. why do you post on here? What do you get out of posts like this? What do you get out of every post you make? Everything you say? Just curious

And for the record, I wrote a really good come back post..decided to delete it on my own. I'm not trying to get into personal arguments with 3 people that keep attacking me. I'll take the attacks as compliments.

Metro.. why do you post on here? What do you get out of posts like this? What do you get out of every post you make? Everything you say? Just curious

And for the record, I wrote a really good come back post..decided to delete it on my own. I'm not trying to get into personal arguments with 3 people that keep attacking me. I'll take the attacks as compliments.

LOL You shouldn't. ;-) (and fwiw, it is you who has been attacking, and doing little besides attacking... posting contrary information and asking for backup to arguments, is NOT an attack)

And, Spartan, why do YOU post on here? What do YOU get out of posts like most of the posts you've made in this thread? What do you get out of posting made up statistics? What do you get out of posting strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks? Just curious.

Regarding Utica Square, it will be very interesting to see what happens to Saks and Miss Jacksons, and Utica Square as a whole when Mr. Helmerich passes.

Now you're speculating on the death of community benefactors in Tulsa. You really must hate the place.

Utica Square is lovely, in that old money, slightly shabby, we don't like anything new style. But all it is is a shopping center without a roof, really near a Nichols Hills-like neighborhood. Aubrey's vision for Nichols Hills Plaza, had he been able to bring it to fruition, would have created an arena not that much different, with housing. We're not that far off. Anthropologie would be in NH Plaza had they had stores that stay open past 5 p.m. One of the problem with the local movement is that many local stores like daytime hours only.

Regarding Utica Square, it will be very interesting to see what happens to Saks and Miss Jacksons, and Utica Square as a whole when Mr. Helmerich passes.


You make it sound like he's in his 90s, he's 51.

He's one year older than Aubrey McClendon, what happens to Nichols Hills Plaza when he passes?

You make it sound like he's in his 90s, he's 51.

He's one year older than Aubrey McClendon, what happens to Nichols Hills Plaza when he passes?

(1) I said nothing about it being soon. I only said "when".

(2) He's 86. You are obviously referring to Hans. I was of course writing about Walter. Utica Square has been his baby.

If Tulsa is lucky, Hans will continue the dedication. But that also presumes that he can maintain the complete contol of the company that Walt has enjoyed.

(1) I said nothing about it being soon. I only said "when".

(2) He's 86. You are obviously referring to Hans. I was of course writing about Walter. Utica Square has been his baby.

If Tulsa is lucky, Hans will continue the dedication. But that also presumes that he can maintain the complete contol of the company that Walt has enjoyed.

Hans is already deeply involved in Utica Square.

Hans is already deeply involved in Utica Square.

Well, yes . . . as the president of the company that owns Utica Square,
it would be rather difficult for him not to be.

So what is your point, again?

Here is a truly awesome new store that just opened in the Gunboat Park neighborhood of downtown Tulsa (southeast corner of the IDL, tucked in front of the Home Depot Warehouse Market area).
Tulsa World: One happy camper (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=53&articleid=20091211_53_E1_MikeLa154601)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4196382808_3687ac054b.jpg

Tulsa, Okla., Sees Its Future in Downtown Revitalization - Housing Trends, New Urbanism - Builder Magazine (http://www.builderonline.com/housing-trends/tulsas-time.aspx)

More possibe downtown development for Tulsa. Tulsa seems to be puttiing together some nice plans for downtown.

man i think these articles have convinced me to move to Tulsa and party in their "Bricktown"

It's not that bad, metro. Stop acting like it is...maybe if we all be friends we can even put the rivalry behind us. :)

Saks is closing two stores:

Portland and (wait for it)
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San Diego.

San Diego — Luxist (http://www.luxist.com/tag/san+diego/)

Haha. Good tease.

Did Tulsa not get the "memo" that the economy is still down?

Many of the downtown Okc projects are still on hold or "dead" and we keep hearing "the economy".

So how does Tulsa keep announcing new projects?


Downtown condos planned
The former ARCO Building will be con- verted into living units.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at Tulsa World: Downtown condos planned (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100527_32_E1_Morean658114)

Just another recent announcement from Tulsa.

I still would not want to live in Tulsa. It is such a "boring" place. Last time I visited Tulsa, I was surprised to see how run down it is looking. If you take Tulsa's North side, West side truly dumpy and not nice. East Tulsa has it's nasty areas. If it were not for Midtown and Brookside area, Tulsa would be a truly average predictible city. It is a city that is on the decline. The smell of their river and the refineries there are a bit much to stomach. I am not even that impressed with their downtown. OKC has the more brighter future than T-town.

Oh wow, Tulsa is playing catchup and has some of their first real conversion housing coming along, this doesn't mean their economy is "booming." Just because we're being realistic doesn't mean we aren't glad it's happening.

Progressiveboy--May I ask how Tulsa is boring? You singled out north and west Tulsa..there is virtually no north and west Tulsa anyway, the clear majority of Tulsa is S and SE. The smell of the river and the refineries? There are a lot of great natural areas along the west bank of the Arkansas River..Chandler Park, Turkey Mtn, Avery Drive, etc..just the smell of the trees and the nature. You're not even impressed by their downtown? Did anyone mention that you were in one of America's most prominent Art Deco districts, or do you hate that architectural style, too?

Metro..Tulsa is not playing catchup. They have an existing downtown residential market unlike us (which is what surprises me about all of their projects..I would assume they have a lower ceiling for demand than us). Several existing residential high rises in Uptown, including some great modern ones and some great historic ones. There is also more than just the ugly University Club condos. As for conversion housing..what are you talking about here? They've had the Tribune Lofts, the Philtower Lofts, and other projects that happened at the same time as OKC's first 2005-08 wave. This is Tulsa's second wave. It doesn't mean that OKC is a lesser city because we're still waiting on our second wave, it just means that developers here aren't willing to put their plans in motion at the moment with all of the change underway downtown. I guess the lack of development in OKC is supposedly a result of waiting on Project 180, I 40, MAPS 3 esp streetcar, Devon, and the other handful of game changing public projects OKC has going on.

I'll still take our density over DT Tulsa anyday. Sure theirs looks prettier from a distance, but up close is a sea of parking lots everywhere, making it difficult for real street life and connected districts like ours.

Tulsa's downtown may not be as dense but it is bigger. I loved working there. It was great. I may be heading back to work soon.....

I hope that both cities do great. People don't realize that the better Tulsa does the more money OKC gets. It is not the same for Tulsa when OKC does well. We all know why.....

Yeah, up close it really is just a sea of parking lots everywhere, and no real density. Downtown OKC density, ala SandRidge, is so much better.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/446543391_70ab378916.jpg
Look at that poor density..

For every 100 people in OKC, just exactly how many do you suppose are clamoring to live downtown? Oh, I understand completely there is a demand for housing in the downtown area, but just how big is the demand? I don't see drawing too many young families, nor retirees, so just what is the demographic of people wanting actually live downtown? I'm not picking an argument... just curious.

Progressiveboy--May I ask how Tulsa is boring? You singled out north and west Tulsa..there is virtually no north and west Tulsa anyway, the clear majority of Tulsa is S and SE. The smell of the river and the refineries? There are a lot of great natural areas along the west bank of the Arkansas River..Chandler Park, Turkey Mtn, Avery Drive, etc..just the smell of the trees and the nature. You're not even impressed by their downtown? Did anyone mention that you were in one of America's most prominent Art Deco districts, or do you hate that architectural style, too?

Metro..Tulsa is not playing catchup. They have an existing downtown residential market unlike us (which is what surprises me about all of their projects..I would assume they have a lower ceiling for demand than us). Several existing residential high rises in Uptown, including some great modern ones and some great historic ones. There is also more than just the ugly University Club condos. As for conversion housing..what are you talking about here? They've had the Tribune Lofts, the Philtower Lofts, and other projects that happened at the same time as OKC's first 2005-08 wave. This is Tulsa's second wave. It doesn't mean that OKC is a lesser city because we're still waiting on our second wave, it just means that developers here aren't willing to put their plans in motion at the moment with all of the change underway downtown. I guess the lack of development in OKC is supposedly a result of waiting on Project 180, I 40, MAPS 3 esp streetcar, Devon, and the other handful of game changing public projects OKC has going on. Isn't Gilcrease Hills considered North Tulsa? Anyway, my understanding is streets like Pine Street are considered North Tulsa where the ghetto is and the chicken shack killing occurred. So yes there is an area considered North Tulsa.You can debate all you want Spartan, but Tulsa IMO is a faded former great city that is slowly dying and diminishing.

Ever been to Bobo's Chicken in OKC? It's damn good, best chicken ever. Trigger lickin good chicken..

For every 100 people in OKC, just exactly how many do you suppose are clamoring to live downtown? Oh, I understand completely there is a demand for housing in the downtown area, but just how big is the demand? I don't see drawing too many young families, nor retirees, so just what is the demographic of people wanting actually live downtown? I'm not picking an argument... just curious.

Well we've isolated the primary demographics: Retirees and particularly "empty nesters"--older people keen on the idea of downtown's social and cultural offerings who are looking for less house to maintain, and young professionals--people who are in their 20s and single, who are looking for an urban lifestyle for both practical and impractical reasons. For these people, finding that urban lifestyle has been identified as a major determining factor in where to live..and because these people are your future foundation for growth, this is where the prize is.

How many people in 100 are interested in downtown? Even if it's just 5 in 100, that's still out of a metro of 1.3 million people, so basically 75,000 people interested in about 3,000 existing units. Even if it's just 1 in 100, that's still 13,000. I believe that the demand is huge and could more than support downtown as a viable residential market. The only problem with that is that the critical shortage and lack of availability means downtown IS NOT a viable residential market. It's a chicken and egg dilemma to an extent.

For every 100 people in OKC, just exactly how many do you suppose are clamoring to live downtown? Oh, I understand completely there is a demand for housing in the downtown area, but just how big is the demand? I don't see drawing too many young families, nor retirees, so just what is the demographic of people wanting actually live downtown? I'm not picking an argument... just curious.

The last official study was done in 2005. Here are all 192 pages if you want to read them. It is actually quite interesting stuff. Here is the answer to answer your question.

http://www.okc.gov/Planning/resources/downtownhousingstudy.pdf


Propensity to live Downtown. If the right kind of housing were available at the right price, an estimated 9 percent of the population (based on a sample weighted to account for the regional renter / owner ratio) would be very likely to move Downtown. Another 8 percent would be somewhat likely.

That is 17%.

To throw salt in the Sandridge wound they also said this:


Type and cost of housing desired. Historic loft conversions are the most
appealing residential product type for current renters, according to the survey.
Current home owners preferred single family homes. Interestingly, only 24
percent overall preferred new construction versus 41 percent who preferred
historic properties.

They also gave us housing unit counts to meet demand: In 2010 there is an estimated demand of 7,833 rental properties and 4,668 for sale properties.

So Spartan's 13,000 (1/100) estimate is more or less correct; and is what downtown OKC should be pushing for. Someone should bring this up at the Sandridge and other downtown planning meetings - we need to meet this demand, and once we do will OKC really begin to enjoy the 'additional' upscale urban offerings we are all hoping will happen soon to downtown.

Well this is the jaded way I am beginning to see it:

Yeah, saying we should build 5,000 new units in the next ten years or so sounds, to me, like an extremely low end projection and isn't going to go very far in making OKC a fully viable residential market. But when the Fixed Guideway Study came out and said we should have a small starter streetcar system by now, I also thought, and we all probably know it, that it was a very conservative suggestion and I wanted to see something more bold at the time. In my naive and hopeful previous paradigm I was hoping by 2015 we would have a huge comprehensive streetcar system in downtown and a metro-wide light rail system connective every suburb. I was also hoping for 2-3,000 residential units a year downtown.

Now I realize none of that will ever, ever come close to happening in this town. Let's just do what we can. I think that the 2005 Housing Study, based on 2005 conditions (of not really knowing if OKC would accept urban living).. gosh it would just be great if we could meet that low expectation set in that study. It seems as if we can not possibly set the bar low enough to achieve success on the infill and transit fronts. Everywhere else we do really well, but this town is still having problems with transit and infill...you know, the things that will really bring sustainability. No offense to Devon and the Thunder..

Your supposedly "construction criticism" of OKC is really getting to irk my redundancy nerve.

Well no offense A2010, but the more time I spend in sustainable urban communities and then come back to OKC, the more underwhelmed I am by the "change and progress" we've got here. It's just a simple case of an Okie who's probably getting closer to breaking away from Oklahoma ties the more time I spend out there in the big wide world. I've been on this forum since 2003 or 2004, and my perspective has basically changed like this:

Stage 1: OKC is da greatest city in the world! (Houston is greatest in universe)
Stage 2: OKC is so great because of how far we've come and how much further we'll go.
Stage 3: Look at all of the change happening here, we are truly kicking it in high gear.
Stage 4: We need to fight for more change. We need to do more. We can be better.
Stage 5: Okay, seen some pretty corrupt looking deals lately. I expected 2010 to be more glamorous.

I've been at this discussion thing for 7 years now. I am talked to death about OKC, basically. I am starting to lose interest in the positive things everyone else is talking about and I want to see more change on the other things that I am starting to realize. In the last 7 years I don't think OKC has become any more sustainable, in fact, it's become a lot less sustainable if you ask me, and that's the ultimate battle. I never thought there would be an 850 ft-tall skyscraper under construction. I did expect 3,000 new downtown residential units to be added between 2005 and 2010..we're coming in around 1,000 or less.

I've become aware of the true way that this city does things. Let's just say that. I don't think business as usual in this city is ever going to lead to adoption of more sustainable development. I think that all of the lip service paid to new urban concepts is great but the city's actions speak stronger, and are depressing as hell if you ask me. It is also astounding how many consultants we have brought in, paid thousands of dollars to, and basically ignored. Jeff Speck and the ULI in particular. I can not believe we would be so myopic and set in our ways to ignore the expertise and wisdom of Bill Hudnut and Jeff Speck. It just wows me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/446543391_70ab378916.jpg

You know what crappy Boston Avenue in Tulsa needs? A landmark setting for children to have their birthday parties. Prize goes to whoever gets the reference first..

I've been at this discussion thing for 7 years now. I am talked to death about OKC, basically. I am starting to lose interest in the positive things everyone else is talking about and I want to see more change on the other things that I am starting to realize. In the last 7 years I don't think OKC has become any more sustainable, in fact, it's become a lot less sustainable if you ask me, and that's the ultimate battle. I never thought there would be an 850 ft-tall skyscraper under construction. I did expect 3,000 new downtown residential units to be added between 2005 and 2010..we're coming in around 1,000 or less.

I've become aware of the true way that this city does things. Let's just say that. I don't think business as usual in this city is ever going to lead to adoption of more sustainable development. I think that all of the lip service paid to new urban concepts is great but the city's actions speak stronger, and are depressing as hell if you ask me. It is also astounding how many consultants we have brought in, paid thousands of dollars to, and basically ignored. Jeff Speck and the ULI in particular. I can not believe we would be so myopic and set in our ways to ignore the expertise and wisdom of Bill Hudnut and Jeff Speck. It just wows me.

Spartan, you're young. You missed a few stages. Here are mine:

Stage 1 (you probably weren't even born yet): Man, this place is a dump, the worst city I have ever seen. It stinks to have to live here. How quickly can I leave?

Stage 2: Having four children while in medical school and residency leaves no time to even think about where you are living and how it compares to anywhere else. You're in survival mode.

Stage 3: Having survived, you look around and think: Man, this place is a dump, the worst city I have ever seen. What is MAPS? Did I vote for it?

Stage 4: This is fun. It's kind of like taking a derelict building and trying to rehab it. You find plumbing and load bearing walls in unexpected places, and it's not turning out exactly like you thought it would, but the process of transforming it from disaster to something liveable and worthwhile is satisfying.

Stage 5: I've now lived here long enough to be emotionally invested in this place, and, like raising a handicapped child, every milestone is worth celebrating and enjoying. Oklahoma City still has a long way to go, but I'm bonded and committed. It's not perfect, but are any of us? We do what we can to make ourselves and everything around us better and take satisfaction from the process.

For me, it's more enjoyable to see something far from perfect inch towards perfection than to live somewhere that's already perfect. I recognize that the process may be painful and sometimes infuriating, but in reality, there are a lot of things in life that are painful and infuriating at times that are worth doing.

Betts, that is where we differ...I have lived in many states and locations and have NEVER considered Oklahoma City to be a "dump". I have NEVER been ashamed to tell someone where I was from. Since I NEVER had such a negative view of OKC, things like MAPS or the NBA didn't do much to change my opinion of it. Now as far as changing my opinions of City leadership, that is another matter entirely, that that is a different rant. That is why I often don't understand my fellow Okies lacking self-image etc. Have I had to correct some when I mentioned where I was from (dust bowl, cowboy & Indian type stuff)? Sure, but you run into all sorts of preconceived notions by others no matter what part of the country/state/city you are talking about.

Having lived near Minneapolis, in Chicago and Denver and spent my childhood visiting cities all over the country (my dad loved to take us on grand cross-country trips....driving), I'd never seen anything quite like Oklahoma City. When I moved here, downtown was a ghost town, Bricktown didn't exist and we spent two months trying to find a Chinese restaurant that made anything but Cantonese food, without success. We finally gave up and ate Cantonese. There was no Italian, and Roy Rogers was the closest thing to a deli. It was the ugliest, most uninspiring place I'd ever lived.

I'd lived in Denver for the preceding 8 years, didn't own a car, used mass transit to get everywhere, lived just outside of downtown in a lovely old townhouse (slightly shabby, but lovely), could pop down to Larimer Square for a Bricktown type experience, shopped in some grand stores downtown, had food available in almost any ethnicity desired. Downtown Denver was bustling at any time of day, and there weren't blocks of empty space or empty buildings.

So, moving to Oklahoma City was a shock, and as stated, all we could think about was getting out of here. I think some of the preconceived notions (except for the dust bowl nonsense) weren't that far off. We have come a tremendous distance since I moved here 30 years ago, and I'm not ashamed to tell anyone I live in Oklahoma City now, but I was then. It's simply the truth from my perspective.

I miss Roy Rogers (sooooooo much better than Arby's etc)

That is true, we all have our own truth (perspective).

Am curious though, if you really hated it here THAT much, why didn't you leave? Reminds me of your old nemesis Paul from the Oklahoman threads (he gets asked that a lot...LOL). 30 years later and you are still here....

So Spartan's 13,000 (1/100) estimate is more or less correct;

He wasn't even close. The real number was 17/100. Hot Rod was off by 1700% (and he was the optimistic one).

Unlike paul, you would never have found me criticizing Oklahoma City publicly. I was in school and residency, and my husband had a very good job. I got a very good job offer when I finished residency as well. We looked when I finished residency, but the kids by then were old enough that they had all their friends and were settled and they were really upset at the prospect of moving. My parents moved me when I was in junior high and it was really traumatic, and so we didn't want to do the same thing. We basically stayed for them. And, I haven't been sorry, mostly. I miss some of the things that I had in other cities, but as I said, it's fun watching things change here. I have good friends. It's a good city in which to raise children, and my kids had very good childhoods as a result. They don't live here, but as I'd said in an earlier thread, for the very first time in the last ten years, my oldest son, when visiting here said he would consider living in Oklahoma City at some point in his life. I think they all secretly think...."Maybe when I'm married and have children".

For every 100 people in OKC, just exactly how many do you suppose are clamoring to live downtown? Oh, I understand completely there is a demand for housing in the downtown area, but just how big is the demand? I don't see drawing too many young families, nor retirees, so just what is the demographic of people wanting actually live downtown? I'm not picking an argument... just curious.

At this point in time, I don't think you'll find many young families wanting to live downtown. I think, if the Core to Shore develops as planned and you've got a school down by the river as well as a Central Park, that will undoubtedly change.

As far as retirees go, I think empty nesters and young people who don't have a family yet are the logical people who would consider downtown living. I'm not a retiree, but I've only got one child at home occasionally, and that's why I decided to move downtown. I've got lots of free time in the evenings to do things, and there's more to do downtown than anywhere else in the city. I like being able to walk everywhere, and I look forward to the streetcar so I can ride over to Midtown.

I've had the acreage and lots of landscaping and I'm over that. It's too much work to do it yourself, and too expensive and not satisfying to have it done. One of the added bonuses of where I live is that we actually save a fair amount of money. Because I've got build-block construction, our utility costs are dramatically lower. My gas bill this month was $14, and I don't think it was ever less than $200 at my other house, even in the spring and fall. My electric bill has never been over $100, and I have 3700 square feet. I pay $100 a month for alll landscaping maintenance, and my insurance costs are far lower because of the type of construction we have. I pay lower property taxes. We don't have a pool to generate all the expense that ours did. We have a lot of disposable income that we didn't have while living in our other house.

I have two dogs, and they like living here. They get walked a minimum of twice a day, which didn't happen at our other house.

We see a lot of young people in their twenties and early 30s around here, and I'm sure that's the prominent demographic.

All in all, we're very satisfied living downtown and are glad we made the decision to move here.

Yeah, up close it really is just a sea of parking lots everywhere, and no real density. Downtown OKC density, ala SandRidge, is so much better.

Look at that poor density..


Sure post a pic of their densist street, Boston canyon. They have like 2 blocks that are like that (and I'd argue they are nicer than our Park Ave or Robinson), however the rest of DT Tulsa is spread out and you know it. I posted a great pic a few weeks back of all of DT Tulsa, which showed TONS of empty parking lots everywhere. I'll try to find it again. In the meantime, here are a few more.

http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/151construction.jpg

http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/images/campusgostate.jpg


http://www.tulsaaudubon.org/guides/williams-center-green-map.jpg

SURFACE PARKING MAP

http://www.tulsanow.org/uploaded_images/parking-771403.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/115/304867044_b7e4242f95.jpg?v=1225930896

http://www.pbase.com/image/54957939.jpg
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2009/12/01/wQ8ogY6J.jpg

Sure post a pic of their densist street, Boston canyon. They have like 2 blocks that are like that (and I'd argue they are nicer than our Park Ave or Robinson), however the rest of DT Tulsa is spread out and you know it. I posted a great pic a few weeks back of all of DT Tulsa, which showed TONS of empty parking lots everywhere. I'll try to find it again. In the meantime, here are a few more.

http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/151construction.jpg

http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/images/campusgostate.jpg


http://www.tulsaaudubon.org/guides/williams-center-green-map.jpg

SURFACE PARKING MAP

http://www.tulsanow.org/uploaded_images/parking-771403.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/115/304867044_b7e4242f95.jpg?v=1225930896

http://www.pbase.com/image/54957939.jpg
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2009/12/01/wQ8ogY6J.jpg

Excellent post Metro. Your photos give a much more honest portrayal of downtown Tulsa (except for the fact that the penultimate photo is actually downtown Des Moines, which, as you can see in the photo, is actually FAR more densely developed than downtown Tulsa.)

Tulsa's downtown may not be as dense but it is bigger. I loved working there. It was great. I may be heading back to work soon.....

I hope that both cities do great. People don't realize that the better Tulsa does the more money OKC gets. It is not the same for Tulsa when OKC does well. We all know why.....

May I ask what years you worked there? I have worked in both downtown Tulsa and downtown OKC and to me downtown OKC, even though fewer people worked there was a MUCH more interesting and lively place to work.

Downtown Tulsa has plenty of parking lots, especially in the south end around TCC and near the Blue Dome. However Bricktown and Midtown OKC also have an abundance of surface parking. The historic cores of both downtowns are fairly dense; in OKC from Sheridan to EK Gaylord to 5th to Walker and in Tulsa from 6th to Cincinnati to 2nd to Cheyenne.

This area in Tulsa is pretty dense
http://www.urban-photos.com/gallery/albums/city_galleries/tulsa/tulsa_42_9412.jpg

while this area is not (ironically Boston Ave., which is an urban canyon from 3rd to 7th, is surrounded by parking lots near TCC but that is slowly changing as TCC expands its downtown campus)
http://www.urban-photos.com/gallery/albums/city_galleries/tulsa/tulsa_69_9369.jpg

And this is Des Moines, was it posted for comparison purposes?
http://www.pbase.com/image/54957939.jpg

Tulsans would like to consider themselves superior and it has always been that way. We in OKC should just ignore their irrelevant self importance. We will keep outgrowing Tulsa for the forseable future and it frustrates the heck out of many old school Tulsans. It will ruin their ego if they have to admit OKC might actually be more progressive these days.

Spartan, sorry you are so negative now on OKC. Frankly, I travel extensively worldwide and still LOVE living in OKC. Every city has politics, corruptions, underdeveloped areas, egos, potholes, budget deficits, disputes with public servants, etc, etc, etc. But OKC is a GREAT lifestyle and I wouldn't want to live elsewhere. I visit other cities and love many, but I still want to live HERE. Sorry you are so unhappy, but you don't have to keep coming on trying to show the dark side everytime something positive is said. Some of us enjoy hearing a little optimism as well as lively and constructive debate.

Once one becomes so negative NOTHING is possible. I prefer to remain positive and encouraging while working to clean up the blemishes.

Well, Rover, no offense..but what blemishes could possibly exist in your view of OKC? You talk about OKC's lifestyle as if a laid-back and slow lifestyle is a phenomenon that doesn't exist elsewhere, but surely what you mean is the sprawl and lack of traffic issues because traffic is spread out on a huge (and hugely expensive) infrastructure system that doesn't ever gridlock. In your view, you're celebrating SandRidge helping to tear down buildings that haven't yet been restored, and I don't expect you have any political worries with this town either although I would never assume what you believe.

Do you actually believe OKC has any problems? Same for metro. Metro, do you believe there are any areas in which OKC could possibly improve?

It seems to me its the OKC crowd that is smug and looks down on Tulsa not the other way around. You OKC people are like Texans, "all hat and no cattle".