View Full Version : Downtown Tulsa development ahead of OKC?



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metro
04-28-2010, 10:22 AM
who needs to go to dallas when you can shop online :bright_id

when you can't see things in person or want to try them on.

progressiveboy
04-28-2010, 10:46 AM
I'm sure there are many things that can be found in Dallas that we can't get here, but I'm convinced that many people just think it's "chic" to shop in Dallas and go home to brag about it. They go there more for an weekend outing with shopping as an excuse. Well lets start off ljbab728- Dallas has Neiman Marcus, Saks, Nordstrom, True Religion Store, Versace, Barneys, Hermes, Brooks Brothers. On the more affordable side, Cost Plus World Market, IKEA, Urban Outfitters etc...........This is probably why most people go to Dallas to shop since "none" of these stores are located in OKC. There may be a few people that shop in Dallas to brag however, for you to make that general assumption is a pretty weak argument. Maybe people like to get out of town for the weekend for their outings and Dallas offers many things that OKC just does not have. Not to mention, all the great restaurants that Dallas has that OKC does not.

Richard at Remax
04-28-2010, 11:23 AM
Metro. I am 26. I know what fits me and what isn't going to fit me. And now more than ever you can tell what things look like online. Ordered lots of high end online (burberry, lacoste, rock and republic) online and never once had a problem or sent things back.

BigD Misey
04-28-2010, 11:38 AM
For what it's worth...
I think OKC right now is in a position similar to the early 2000's. The city was ripe for a professional franchise. Rumors abounded about AFL and NHL and NBA. Finally, due to a natural disaster, OKC got its chance to PROVE what it was saying "We are ready and will support a professional franchise!" And prove it they did. In the face of critics that said the money and fan base would not be there.
In this situation, it will again be a third party catalyst. Some entity or event will spring one of these stores into what they feel will be a risky chance in OKC. What they will find is, to their suprise it will flourish. Then, as if they couldn't help themselves, the rest will come.
It will take a massively attractive offer from the city to developers...The Right Developers...ones with connections with those stores in the past. It will take seasonal attractions in the immediate vicinity downtown, especially in the winter, which is why i think the Thunder are a key element. Unfortunately, i also think it will take another 5 years or so untill a developer of that calibur to move, because they will want to see how the Maps3 development pans out and how well the NBA floats in upcoming years. Especially in a down year.

Kerry
04-28-2010, 11:53 AM
Metro. I am 26. I know what fits me and what isn't going to fit me. And now more than ever you can tell what things look like online. Ordered lots of high end online (burberry, lacoste, rock and republic) online and never once had a problem or sent things back.

I take it you are not married. My wife never buys clothes on-line - never - and I don't know any woman that buys shoes, purses, or other accessories on-line unless they see them in a store first.

Richard at Remax
04-28-2010, 12:02 PM
Haha yes kerry I am not married I was just talking about myself. Im sure that will change when I do get married. Cause womens shopping is a whole other machine that can't be stopped.

Kerry
04-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Haha yes kerry I am not married I was just talking about myself. Im sure that will change when I do get married. Cause womens shopping is a whole other machine that can't be stopped.

Like I said earlier - everything I need is at Lowes and Best Buy. The wife shops like a professional. No matter what town or city we visit, I know I am going to spend time at the mall.

metro
04-28-2010, 03:43 PM
worthy. I have several the same size of tshirt from Old Navy and yet they are different in actuality. Unfortunately retailers sizes are skewed from brand to brand, and sometimes even within a brand. I'm not much older than you, but I am married. I used to shop a lot online but anymore anything I order I have to send back because the size is skewed, even with retailers I'm familar with. Also selection can vary from region to region from the same retailer, but you can't always find it online.

The point from whomever was that people shop in Dallas to brag, which simply isn't the case. I shop there because I can't get it in OKC and I want to shop in person. On top of that, notice how womens selection is 3-4 times bigger than mens selections? That's because the bulk of their money is from women, and as you and others noted, women don't want to shop online for the most part w/o seeing or trying on in a store first. Sorry , but men have very limited pull when it comes to trendy clothing.

Architect2010
04-28-2010, 05:08 PM
Well ljbab. I don't consider anything 'chic' about driving 3 hours to Dallas, navigating that horrible congested traffic there, and putting up with rude people. I extremely doubt that most people drive 300 miles to Dallas to look "cool". But what can I say, Urban Outfitters controls my mind. I wish it was here. And yeah, I shop online at UO and others stores not located here, but for jeans and jackets I have to be at the store itself.

Spartan
04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
It depends if the items purchased online are charged sales tax or not (if the seller has a physical presence in the state, they are supposed to be collecting OK sales tax and the appropriate City sales tax. If that money is not being collected by the Seller (and the other State isn't collecting their own sales tax on the items), it falls under the category of the Use Tax and is supposed to be reported on your OK income tax form. If you don't have your receipts, the State as a formula you can use that works out to be a certain percentage of your income. Or you can check that you didn't buy anything out of state that might be subject to the Use Tax.


Eh yeah...

Spartan
04-28-2010, 10:16 PM
we dont have the location - yet.

Look for the new boulevard downtown to be the location of okc's premier shopping district.

roflmfao

Spartan
04-28-2010, 10:22 PM
People visiting from New York or Chicago find it necessary to go to Dallas to go shopping? lol. Dallas must have much better shopping than anything I'm familiar with if they can't find it at home.

Here's the important thing you're not getting.. Dallas is able to serve 95% of its residents' shopping needs, and probably actually captures 70%. It supplements that with half of the shoppers in Dallas actually coming in from other areas, thus is completely whole.

OKC is only able to serve maybe 60% of its residents' shopping needs, and only captures (according to the chamber survey) 40%. Nobody is coming into OKC to shop, in fact, OKC people are supporting the stores in Texas. Thus you have a zero sum game for shopping in OKC because it is so rudimentary, and we're actually in the hole if you look at it comparatively.

So Dallas, because they can appeal to a more complete range, is whole.
OKC, because it offers virtually no upscale shopping, is in the hole.

Catchy, huh?

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 12:42 AM
I don't know what to tell you ljbab728. My sister-in-law lives in Chicago and when she comes to visit she used to go Orlando (when staying with us) or to Palm Beach (if she stayed with her parents) to do her vacation shopping. Now with St John's Town Center she doesn't have to leave Jax.

Women operate differently than men. Everything I need/want is at Lowes and Best Buy. I don't need anything else. I can go to one shoe store and find ten pairs of shoes I like. My wife can go to ten shoe stores and not find one pair.

Yes, with women, the grass in always greener elsewhere when it comes to shopping.

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 12:52 AM
Here's the important thing you're not getting.. Dallas is able to serve 95% of its residents' shopping needs, and probably actually captures 70%. It supplements that with half of the shoppers in Dallas actually coming in from other areas, thus is completely whole.

OKC is only able to serve maybe 60% of its residents' shopping needs, and only captures (according to the chamber survey) 40%. Nobody is coming into OKC to shop, in fact, OKC people are supporting the stores in Texas. Thus you have a zero sum game for shopping in OKC because it is so rudimentary, and we're actually in the hole if you look at it comparatively.

So Dallas, because they can appeal to a more complete range, is whole.
OKC, because it offers virtually no upscale shopping, is in the hole.

Catchy, huh?

What you're not getting is that Dallas has a population greater than all of Oklahoma and we're never going to get the kind of shopping that they have as long as that is the case. The original point of all of this was that OKC wasn't doing enough to attract high end shopping. I keep saying over and over again that I'm not against OKC getting more options in shopping and hope it happens. The city, itself, is limited in what in can do to achieve that. I've never said that people don't go to Dallas to shop even if that is just an excuse for a weekend trip, just that the overall impact on our economy from them is minimal. What you're saying about OKC not attracting anyone from outside of the metro for shopping is ridiculous. We get shoppers from all over the state.

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 01:01 AM
Well lets start off ljbab728- Dallas has Neiman Marcus, Saks, Nordstrom, True Religion Store, Versace, Barneys, Hermes, Brooks Brothers. On the more affordable side, Cost Plus World Market, IKEA, Urban Outfitters etc...........This is probably why most people go to Dallas to shop since "none" of these stores are located in OKC. There may be a few people that shop in Dallas to brag however, for you to make that general assumption is a pretty weak argument. Maybe people like to get out of town for the weekend for their outings and Dallas offers many things that OKC just does not have. Not to mention, all the great restaurants that Dallas has that OKC does not.

When you start mentioning the restaurants, that just reinforces my statement that many people just like to go there for a weekend getaway and include many things besides shopping. I've never said that Dallas didn't offer stores that we don't have and that may appeal to a few people. The vast majority of middle class citizens in OKC could care less. I'm in the travel business and know well why people go various places so I'm not just making general assumptions.

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 01:05 AM
It's really great that you can divine the intentions of hundreds of thousands of people who leave our state to go shopping.

That seems to be what other posters here have been doing.

Spartan
04-29-2010, 01:33 AM
What you're not getting is that Dallas has a population greater than all of Oklahoma and we're never going to get the kind of shopping that they have as long as that is the case. The original point of all of this was that OKC wasn't doing enough to attract high end shopping. I keep saying over and over again that I'm not against OKC getting more options in shopping and hope it happens. The city, itself, is limited in what in can do to achieve that. I've never said that people don't go to Dallas to shop even if that is just an excuse for a weekend trip, just that the overall impact on our economy from them is minimal. What you're saying about OKC not attracting anyone from outside of the metro for shopping is ridiculous. We get shoppers from all over the state.

Simply put, there's a reason all the high-end chains are going to Tulsa, and not OKC.


The vast majority of middle class citizens in OKC could care less.

Unfortunately I do not trust people who claim to be in touch with the vast majority of people.

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 01:38 AM
Simply put, there's a reason all the high-end chains are going to Tulsa, and not OKC.



Unfortunately I do not trust people who claim to be in touch with the vast majority of people.

lol, unlike you being in touch with a few?

Spartan
04-29-2010, 01:44 AM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone into believing that I'm in touch with anything near a majority of any kind of people, unlike you..

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 01:48 AM
I'm not trying to persuade anyone into believing that I'm in touch with anything near a majority of any kind of people, unlike you..

You could have fooled me. But then, unlike you, I've lived in the OKC area since 1947, so what do I know?

Spartan
04-29-2010, 02:01 AM
Obviously a lot about 1947...

P.S. It's 2:02 am back in Oklahoma, so if you're still up posting (yes) then it's way past your bedtime.. unless the whole "I'm a 63 year old man, sonny boy" routine is b.s. So I just find that really hard to believe at the moment, no offense--not that I have the faintest clue what any of it has to do with the subject at hand.

betts
04-29-2010, 06:11 AM
Well lets start off ljbab728- Dallas has Neiman Marcus, Saks, Nordstrom, True Religion Store, Versace, Barneys, Hermes, Brooks Brothers. On the more affordable side, Cost Plus World Market, IKEA, Urban Outfitters etc...........This is probably why most people go to Dallas to shop since "none" of these stores are located in OKC. There may be a few people that shop in Dallas to brag however, for you to make that general assumption is a pretty weak argument. Maybe people like to get out of town for the weekend for their outings and Dallas offers many things that OKC just does not have. Not to mention, all the great restaurants that Dallas has that OKC does not.

Different stores are the ONLY reason I go to Dallas to shop. I despise the traffic, think driving 3 hours to do so is a pain in the neck and there are so many great new restaurants in OKC that I would never need to go to Dallas to have a great dining experience. If we had good shopping in OKC, OU-Texas would be my only reason to visit Dallas.

progressiveboy
04-29-2010, 08:06 AM
Different stores are the ONLY reason I go to Dallas to shop. I despise the traffic, think driving 3 hours to do so is a pain in the neck and there are so many great new restaurants in OKC that I would never need to go to Dallas to have a great dining experience. If we had good shopping in OKC, OU-Texas would be my only reason to visit Dallas. I certainly will agree with you on the traffic issue! My commute time to work is 45 minutes one way.

metro
04-29-2010, 09:05 AM
Different stores are the ONLY reason I go to Dallas to shop. I despise the traffic, think driving 3 hours to do so is a pain in the neck and there are so many great new restaurants in OKC that I would never need to go to Dallas to have a great dining experience. If we had good shopping in OKC, OU-Texas would be my only reason to visit Dallas.

Exactly, not to mention, I'd spend more in the stores and more frequently if they were located here versus having to schedule a weekend trip to Dallas. If we could just get another 4-5 retailers here, I'd have no need to go to Dallas other than to visit friends or maybe an OU game at JerryWorld.

ljbab728
04-29-2010, 11:27 PM
Obviously a lot about 1947...

P.S. It's 2:02 am back in Oklahoma, so if you're still up posting (yes) then it's way past your bedtime.. unless the whole "I'm a 63 year old man, sonny boy" routine is b.s. So I just find that really hard to believe at the moment, no offense--not that I have the faintest clue what any of it has to do with the subject at hand.

Spartan, my age is not really the only issue when I try to indicate that I might have an idea what I'm talking about. I have also been in the travel business in OKC for over 20 years and deal with people from all social and economic backgrounds in planning trips out of town. I think by now that I have a little insight into what motivates people to go out of town for various things. And you're right that this has gotten a little off of subject. I don't think you're going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind so more discussion down this path is pointless and what we think isn't going to change any reality. The original intent of this thread was about businesses and development that Tulsa has that OKC doesn't have or might be ahead in and some poster's feeling that it was because of something that leaders in OKC either were doing or not doing to cause that.

Spartan
04-30-2010, 09:07 AM
Well I guarantee you that someone who's going to drive 2 and a half hours down to Dallas to do some shopping isn't going to need to use a travel agent to do so, which could explain why you're oblivious to this Dallas phenomenon--no offense. Next time you're at a shopping mall like NorthPark or even (ugh) Grapevine, just check out all the license plates there..you'll see quite a few Oklahoma ones.

metro
04-30-2010, 09:09 AM
Well said Spartan.

Oil Capital
04-30-2010, 09:26 AM
Simply put, there's a reason all the high-end chains are going to Tulsa, and not OKC.



Unfortunately I do not trust people who claim to be in touch with the vast majority of people.

Unfortunately, others may not trust people who throw out random "statistics" with nothing whatsoever to back them up.

Spartan
04-30-2010, 11:41 AM
78% of statistics are made up on the spot. But the fact that Tulsa has better retail than OKC rings true no matter how you slice it. (The only franchise that has come to OKC over Tulsa is ... the NBA, which I'll take over a Saks anytime, but again, I'm not most people.)


Well said Spartan.

Not really. There was a typo. :doh: (But thanks)

metro
04-30-2010, 01:39 PM
Not the only but ok. Lego store, Vans, Cheesecake Factory (came here first as did Apple), there are still a few that picked OKC over Tulsa unfortunately they seem to have gotten some of the ones that we got first and we haven't got near as many as they got first.

Oil Capital
04-30-2010, 07:58 PM
78% of statistics are made up on the spot. But the fact that Tulsa has better retail than OKC rings true no matter how you slice it. (The only franchise that has come to OKC over Tulsa is ... the NBA, which I'll take over a Saks anytime, but again, I'm not most people.)



Not really. There was a typo. :doh: (But thanks)

I guess you've been trying to run up the average regarding the statistics made up on the spot. ;-)


Not so sure the retail comparison is quite as cut and dried as you seem to think. I mean, once you get past Tulsa having a small Saks Fifth Ave (which reportedly is there because they don't have to pay rent), OKC's retail is quite comparable to Tulsa's. Penn Square is much better than either of Tulsa's malls "no matter how you slice it." So, Tulsa makes up a few points with Utica Square... What are all of the other stores that Tulsa has and OKC does not?

Spartan
04-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.


Not the only but ok. Lego store, Vans, Cheesecake Factory (came here first as did Apple), there are still a few that picked OKC over Tulsa unfortunately they seem to have gotten some of the ones that we got first and we haven't got near as many as they got first.

1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

soonerguru
04-30-2010, 11:59 PM
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.



1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

Not to quibble, but Wolfgang Puck is STILL NOT OPEN, and neither is Anthropologie, and Wolfgang Puck was supposed to have opened in January or February, so the mind wanders....

ljbab728
05-01-2010, 12:34 AM
Well I guarantee you that someone who's going to drive 2 and a half hours down to Dallas to do some shopping isn't going to need to use a travel agent to do so, which could explain why you're oblivious to this Dallas phenomenon--no offense. Next time you're at a shopping mall like NorthPark or even (ugh) Grapevine, just check out all the license plates there..you'll see quite a few Oklahoma ones.

Well Spartan, I guess that shows what you know then. I have planned numerous such trips for clients in addition to people who want to go to Chicago, New York, etc for shopping. And I'm no stranger to Dallas. I've been to Dallas every year since 1965 at least once a year for the OU-Texas football game and often more than that because I have relatives there. I know a lot about Dallas. I'm not questioning that Oklahomans shop in Dallas. When you're checking out all of those license plates, how do you tell if those people live near the border and are actually closer to Dallas than to OKC? I can see that you're intent on continuing this kind of discussion when, as I said before, it's pointless and won't have any affect on anything that is relevant to the original intent of this thread.

HOT ROD
05-01-2010, 01:08 AM
that's what I was thinking also lj, most of those Okie plates must be from Ardmore, Durant, and there around; since they are closer to DFW than they are to OKC.

However, I do agree that OK needs to do some liberalization of it's laws and get some quality developers into OKC to get the kind of retail everyone is looking for.

Again, look at Omaha - what are they doing that is making them more successful? This is not a knock on OMA but rather - I'd like us to use different cities as case studies on how we can make OKC better.

I do wish somebody LOCAL was brave enough to build a quality shopping destination in OKC's inner core; then make a sweet deal just to get someone in. I think the dominoes would fall after that, since people would have an expanded shopping selection and maybe Wichitan's (and Tulsan's) could have weekend trips to OKC to shop. .....

ljbab728
05-01-2010, 01:12 AM
that's what I was thinking also lj, most of those Okie plates must be from Ardmore, Durant, and there around; since they are closer to DFW than they are to OKC.

However, I do agree that OK needs to do some liberalization of it's laws and get some quality developers into OKC to get the kind of retail everyone is looking for.

Again, look at Omaha - what are they doing that is making them more successful? This is not a knock on OMA but rather - I'd like us to use different cities as case studies on how we can make OKC better.

I do wish somebody LOCAL was brave enough to build a quality shopping destination in OKC's inner core; then make a sweet deal just to get someone in. I think the dominoes would fall after that, since people would have an expanded shopping selection and maybe Wichitan's (and Tulsan's) could have weekend trips to OKC to shop. .....

Hotrod, thank you for trying to get this thread back to the original message.

Spartan
05-01-2010, 02:23 AM
Well Spartan, I guess that shows what you know then. I have planned numerous such trips for clients in addition to people who want to go to Chicago, New York, etc for shopping. And I'm no stranger to Dallas. I've been to Dallas every year since 1965 at least once a year for the OU-Texas football game and often more than that because I have relatives there. I know a lot about Dallas. I'm not questioning that Oklahomans shop in Dallas. When you're checking out all of those license plates, how do you tell if those people live near the border and are actually closer to Dallas than to OKC? I can see that you're intent on continuing this kind of discussion when, as I said before, it's pointless and won't have any affect on anything that is relevant to the original intent of this thread.

You're right. Because you're a trip planner for someone to go to 5th Avenue in New York, you are also the expert on people's shopping habits and trends--especially if they cross state lines only 2 hours away. Yup. Going down to Dallas and using a travel agent for a NYC shopping trip are one in the same.

As for original intent of the thread, to be honest (as the thread starter myself) the original intent was not shopping-related at ALL. It is more in reference to the fact that once you throw out Devon as an outlier (outlier as in virtually the only private development in OKC right now), DT Tulsa has WAY more private development going on.

Then we started to talk about shopping. Well, guess what. No matter how you slice it, shopping in Tulsa is remarkably more evolved than in OKC, period. I even know people who instead of Dallas just go up to Tulsa for a shopping day trip. Just as the good folks from Waynoka come into OKC to shop at Sears'.. people from OKC go to Tulsa/Dallas to shop there. It's the circle of life in Oklahoma I guess, and the Dallas daytrip component is VERY relevant to that.

But nice try in attempting to redefine the realm of discussion after you're the one beating a dead horse over the Dallas daytrip thing. Virtually no one else is as out of touch with reality as you are, meaning they've all accepted the reality about shopping--and that's saying something because people in OKC don't accept reality easily (that's a GOOD thing, believe it or not..look at the Thunder).

bluedogok
05-01-2010, 11:11 AM
What you described in post #3 (below) is not "private development" but a public-private partnership development which is quite different than "private development".


What Tulsa has done in order to keep the economy from stifling their momentum is simple..the city of Tulsa has been fronting developers the loans that they need to secure other financing. The developers are doing a service to the city and the public by developing downtown, and Tulsa gets the money back after a 10 year repayment schedule and no interest which will allow them to turn around and reinvest the money again in more developments 10 years from now.

The Domain here in Austin was pretty much a public-private partnership through tax subsidies, of course at the time it started financing was not as difficult to get as it currently is. Development, especially large scale retail development is not going to take off again for quite awhile and most stores expansion plans have been scaled back, varying greatly though between different stores with some pretty much stopping.

Phase II of The Domain recently opened and is about 25% occupied, when it started construction they had about 50% of the tenants committed, the anchors (Dillard's, Dick's and Maggiano's) are opened and Gold Class Cinema is opening soon. In the original Domain the only new thing that has gone in recently is a second Anthropologie store in the old Ruehl No.925 location, it is supposed to open at the end of the month. The first Anthropologie is in the old Whole Foods/Book People center in downtown across from the current Whole Foods. The old Bailey, Banks & Biddle is still vacant in Phase I. There is no way this project could get funded now, even with the city subsidy, Phase III is on indefinite hold which included a relocated Whole Foods (from Gateway Center), Saks (from The Aboretum) and a new Nordstrom's. The Westin and Aloft were well under way when the economy happened.

The current environment just isn't there for the kind of large scale development that everyone is wanting, wishing for it to happen isn't going to make it magically appear until the financial markets get back to funding these projects with regularity. As typical they go from one extreme to the other, from funding things that has no viability to not funding what is a pretty sure bet. The national/international nature of finance has restricted funding in even strong markets because of the losses in weak markets.

Yes, OKC needs some quality development in good locations but for the most part no one is going to be willing to put their own money on the line for a large scale gamble, not the developers (which only put up the front end costs) nor the lenders. People are just going to have to be patient for the financial/development market to get back into development mode.

Oil Capital
05-01-2010, 11:15 AM
You're right. Because you're a trip planner for someone to go to 5th Avenue in New York, you are also the expert on people's shopping habits and trends--especially if they cross state lines only 2 hours away. Yup. Going down to Dallas and using a travel agent for a NYC shopping trip are one in the same.

As for original intent of the thread, to be honest (as the thread starter myself) the original intent was not shopping-related at ALL. It is more in reference to the fact that once you throw out Devon as an outlier (outlier as in virtually the only private development in OKC right now), DT Tulsa has WAY more private development going on.

Then we started to talk about shopping. Well, guess what. No matter how you slice it, shopping in Tulsa is remarkably more evolved than in OKC, period. I even know people who instead of Dallas just go up to Tulsa for a shopping day trip. Just as the good folks from Waynoka come into OKC to shop at Sears'.. people from OKC go to Tulsa/Dallas to shop there. It's the circle of life in Oklahoma I guess, and the Dallas daytrip component is VERY relevant to that.

But nice try in attempting to redefine the realm of discussion after you're the one beating a dead horse over the Dallas daytrip thing. Virtually no one else is as out of touch with reality as you are, meaning they've all accepted the reality about shopping--and that's saying something because people in OKC don't accept reality easily (that's a GOOD thing, believe it or not..look at the Thunder).

And there you have it. Bottom line... Spartan knows all and anyone with a contrary thought is "brain dead" or "out of touch with reality". I'm thinking Spartan might be better suited to posting on his own private blog (with no comments allowed) rather than posting on what purports to be a forum (by definition, a place for the exchange of thoughts and opinions)

Oil Capital
05-01-2010, 11:21 AM
Oil Capitol, it is good to have you in OKC and I am glad that you aren't an ex-Tulsan insisting that Tulsa is better. I'm glad you're one of us, I would just encourage you as well as everyone else to be a little more critical sometimes and a little less braindead blindly optimistic in OKC. If the only reason Saks is in Tulsa is because it's rent-free for them.. yeah, I'm sure that's how the world of high-fashion works. As for small, it's still two stories and typical dept store layout and quantity.

Who cares enough to get into a pissing war between shopping malls? They're all the scourge of the world in my opinion. I would be happy if Penn Square, Woodland Hills, Tulsa Promenade, and Quail Springs just got wiped off the face of the planet. It would infuse those cities with some more variety and diversity in retail.

As for stores/chains Tulsa has that OKC doesn't, there are so many. We've ran through so many of them on this forum. A few big names Tulsa has that OKC does not include Whole Foods, Dave & Busters, Anthropologie, Wolfgang Puck Bistro, Hard Rock Casino/Hotel, Fossil, Saks Fifth Avenue, Fleming's Steakhouse.. I could go on.



1, nobody cares about Vans, 2 Apple and Cheesecake came to OKC/Tulsa at the same time. Lego store?

Oh, please DO go on Spartan, because the list you've provided is laughable. Especially when you follow it up by dismissing everything that shows the reverse because you don't care about those particular stores.

A few problems with your list. the Wolfgang Puck is a franchise. WP did not choose Tulsa. Some Tulsan chose WP (and is silly enough to pay an outrageous franchise fee for the name). Hard Rock Casino/Hotel... Whatever, man; BFD. You do know how that came about don't you? (And there isn't even a cafe there....) Dave & Buster's??? Wow. I'm impressed (not).

and more to the point, what do D&B, Fleming's, Hard Rock, and Wolfgang Puck have to do with subject of better shopping?

Spartan
05-01-2010, 01:46 PM
Oil Capitol, you are definitely from Tulsa. You're a pro at being presumptuous, oblivious..not even worth responding to. The usual Tulsa character traits. I'm just going to say that those of us from OKC have gotten tired of our poor retail options and we want some of these high-profile names that other cities are getting. We're tired of other cities having better retail options than us.


What you described in post #3 (below) is not "private development" but a public-private partnership development which is quite different than "private development".

The Domain here in Austin was pretty much a public-private partnership through tax subsidies, of course at the time it started financing was not as difficult to get as it currently is. Development, especially large scale retail development is not going to take off again for quite awhile and most stores expansion plans have been scaled back, varying greatly though between different stores with some pretty much stopping.

Interesting. So basically it's subsidized in a very similar manner that Norman subsidized the UNP strip mall, and obviously they got a better project out of it. Hell, Tulsa even subsidized the Tulsa Hills strip mall--at a time that they even knew it was just going to be a damn strip mall. MWC and Edmond subsidized a strip mall each (Town Center, Spring Creek etc) and got a little bit of an upgrade from the typical trip mall, probably the closest the OKC metro has come so far.. Since you bring up TIF financing for developments, it makes me wonder if that would suffice for enticing a downtown retail development. Surely a 10-15 year TIF on a urban Class A retail property would generate at least $20 million.

Oil Capital
05-01-2010, 02:46 PM
Oil Capitol, you are definitely from Tulsa. You're a pro at being presumptuous, oblivious..not even worth responding to. The usual Tulsa character traits. I'm just going to say that those of us from OKC have gotten tired of our poor retail options and we want some of these high-profile names that other cities are getting. We're tired of other cities having better retail options than us.

.

Be sure to let us know when you are prepared to have a discussion based on some verifiable facts and without the ad hominem attacks.

After all of your spouting off on the subject we are left with the fact that Tulsa has Saks and Fossil and that apparently makes shopping in Tulsa "remarkably more evolved" (whatever THAT might mean)

And the fact that OKC has some stores not present in Tulsa does not count because, well, for no other reason than Spartan doesn't care about those stores.

Your whining about other cities having better retail options than OKC would be a whole lot less pathetic if you were able to back it up with some actual facts. But personal attacks are so much easier, aren't they?

And FWIW, contrary to your earlier post, Apple did NOT come to OKC and Tulsa at the same time. Tulsa was more than 2 years later than OKC.

Spartan
05-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Obviously Whole Foods and Anthropologie don't count as retail to you either, but Vans does. Do you even know what Vans sells, and how do we know that the Vans you're talking about is coming to OKC? The blurb in OKC Business was like 3 sentences long. Give me a break.

Btw, they sell "designer" skate board shoes and t-shirts. I don't think Utica Square is kicking themselves for not landing a Vans. They had Anthropologie on a waiting list, and Harold's going out of business is what led to them coming in.

I've heard about this fabled Penn Square waiting list but the reality is that Penn Square has some pretty crappy stores along with some good ones like J. Crew, White House Black Market, J. Jill, Express, etc. Utica Square has a REAL waiting list though and they don't let stores like "Joe's Crapmart" (or Jason White's Store Divided..lol) open in their square.

Oil Capital
05-01-2010, 05:28 PM
Obviously Whole Foods and Anthropologie don't count as retail to you either, but Vans does. Do you even know what Vans sells, and how do we know that the Vans you're talking about is coming to OKC? The blurb in OKC Business was like 3 sentences long. Give me a break.

Btw, they sell "designer" skate board shoes and t-shirts. I don't think Utica Square is kicking themselves for not landing a Vans. They had Anthropologie on a waiting list, and Harold's going out of business is what led to them coming in.

I've heard about this fabled Penn Square waiting list but the reality is that Penn Square has some pretty crappy stores along with some good ones like J. Crew, White House Black Market, J. Jill, Express, etc. Utica Square has a REAL waiting list though and they don't let stores like "Joe's Crapmart" (or Jason White's Store Divided..lol) open in their square.

WOW, you really totally lose it when someone challenges you with actual facts, don't you?

(1) I never said anything about Whole Foods or Anthropologie not being retail. But, for the purposes of shopping, especially shopping that attracts out of towners, Whole Foods is indeed pretty much irrelevant. Anthropologie, is, as you know, still in the coming soon category. When it opens, we'll add it to the supposedly very long list of stores Tulsa has but OKC doesn't have... and then the list will be 3 or 4 stores long!

(2) It is beyond obvious that Vans is a retailer. I was vaguely aware of what they sell, but could not really care less. You are the one who brought Vans into our conversation. I don't know or care if they have a store in OKC. But, fwiw, we "know" that the Vans YOU are talking about is coming to OKC in approximately the same way we know Anthropologie is coming to Tulsa... from the newspaper.

Allow me to remind you that I am not alleging that OKC has superior shopping. I have nothing to prove here. I think they are overall pretty comparable. You, on the other hand are alleging that Tulsa has vastly superior shopping and so far, as proof, have shown us Sak's and a Fossil store. I'll give you a freeby... Tulsa also has a Restoration Hardware. Still a long, LONG way from "remarkably more evolved."

(3) You have demonstrated over and over that you have no grasp of the facts or any actual in-depth knowledge of the retail scene and now you want us to believe that you know about Utica Square's supposed waiting list? Give us a break. If Utica Square indeed has a waiting list, why does it take them so long to fill spaces? Harold's closed almost 1 1/2 years before Anthopologie signed a lease. Waiting list, indeed. (For the record, I have never said anything about a waiting list at Penn Square and do not have any knowledge of it (and unlike you, I am not going to pretend to have knowledge I don't actually have)).

(4) I guess it makes you feel good to rail about stores you don't approve of at Penn Square, but it's hardly relevant to the conversation. It is, after all, a regional mall, and as such offers a little bit of everything.

Referring back to an earlier statement of yours... contrary to your statement, Cheesecake Factory did not open at the same time in OKC and Tulsa.

If you ever come up with some actual facts, maybe something like a list of significant length of stores that Tulsa has that are not also in OKC (without an equal number of OKC stores that Tulsa does not have), I'll be eager to see it. Until then, you're claim that Tulsa's shopping is "remarkably more evolved" is nothing but drivel.

BG918
05-01-2010, 06:35 PM
Oil Capital, I agree that both are comparable retail and restaurant-wise. The few upscale national chains in Tulsa that aren't in OKC shouldn't be indicative that Tulsa's retail/restaurant selections is superior, but just different. OKC has locally-owned shops and restaurants Tulsa wishes it had, especially if you include Norman in the mix with its fantastic selection of locally-owned businesses. There are a number of great local Tulsa shops and restaurants OKC would want as well. It goes both ways and doesn't deserve pages and pages of arguing each way. The one main difference is that Tulsa' Utica Square doesn't have an equal in OKC, at least not right now.

Spartan
05-01-2010, 06:58 PM
I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

ljbab728
05-01-2010, 11:28 PM
I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

Lol, Spartan. You really do need to get back to OKC. Maybe then you will get closer "in touch" (which obviously means agreeing with Spartan) with whats going on than those of us who have never left and aren't just making observations from afar to run everything here down. I'm not really sure from your comments why you would even want to come back since you can't buy the designer underwear here that you desire.

Oil Capital
05-02-2010, 09:24 AM
I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

As usual, instead of responding with anything at all in support of his theory, Spartan gives us . . . sarcasm. Way to prove your point Spartan.

Allow me to recap the sum total of Spartan's evidence for the existence of Tulsa having a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene: Sak's, Restoration Hardware and Fossil; yeah Fossil. LOL (And of course this takes no account whatsoever of any stores OKC might have that are not also in Tulsa.)

progressiveboy
05-02-2010, 10:52 AM
As usual, instead of responding with anything at all in support of his theory, Spartan gives us . . . sarcasm. Way to prove your point Spartan.

Allow me to recap the sum total of Spartan's evidence for the existence of Tulsa having a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene: Sak's, Restoration Hardware and Fossil; yeah Fossil. LOL (And of course this takes no account whatsoever of any stores OKC might have that are not also in Tulsa.) Don't forget Steve Madden and Oakley (lol).

bluedogok
05-02-2010, 11:31 AM
The one main difference is that Tulsa' Utica Square doesn't have an equal in OKC, at least not right now.
...and I think that is the root of this "discussion" and something we all admit. Penn Square is the closest to that level of shopping but in the end it is still an enclosed mall and encumbered by some stores that are not "upscale" due to the fact they have been in there a long time and haven't opened up slots for newer stores. Traditional malls are losing favor, we went out to Barton Creek Mall the other day and they have more openings than I have seen since moving to Austin seven years ago, Lakeline and The Arboretum (all Simon properties) do as well. Most of it is due to the changes in retailing, right now it is in a state of flux all over the country and more closures than openings are expected. The fact that Penn Square has so few openings is remarkable for an enclosed mall, now if a quality lifestyle center is built in OKC, they might be affected by that bu the fact that Simon would probably be a part of it means they would have to balance their locations. Some would move, only a few have moved from other locations in Austin to The Domain, most that opened in Phase I were new stores to the Austin market and I think that if one is built in OKC that might happen as well.

Spartan
05-02-2010, 02:15 PM
...and I think that is the root of this "discussion" and something we all admit. Penn Square is the closest to that level of shopping but in the end it is still an enclosed mall and encumbered by some stores that are not "upscale"

Exactly. Until this thread, I wasn't really aware that anyone could stand by OKC's retail offerings. Sometimes OKC Talk doesn't really reflect reality.

Oil Capital
05-02-2010, 04:52 PM
Exactly. Until this thread, I wasn't really aware that anyone could stand by OKC's retail offerings. Sometimes OKC Talk doesn't really reflect reality.

Give it a rest already, Spartan. Utica Square is a lovely little shopping center. Nobody suggested otherwise. But, sorry, Utica Square and a couple stores OKC doesn't have do NOT constitute anything close to a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene. Nothing you have posted comes anywhere near showing such to be the case. You made a snide reference earlier to knowing people who drive from OKC to Tulsa to shop, just like people drive from rural Oklahoma to OKC to shop at Sears. I have news for you, Spartan. I've known a good number of people in my years in Tulsa who have driven to OKC to shop. People who like to shop, like to shop in different places, and no matter how much you want to denigrate it, Penn Square Mall is the best large shopping center in the state.

Personally, I would give a VERY slight edge to Tulsa, primarily because of Utica Square and Sak's, but realistically they are pretty much in the same league.

Again, when you are ready with some facts to back up your ridiculous claims, by all means let's seem them.

Larry OKC
05-02-2010, 09:35 PM
How about this:

Tulsa has some stores that OKC doesn't and vice-versa?

Eventually most stores that come to one of the Cities first, eventually end up in both?

ljbab728
05-02-2010, 11:28 PM
How about this:

Tulsa has some stores that OKC doesn't and vice-versa?

Eventually most stores that come to one of the Cities first, eventually end up in both?

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment to me, Larry.

metro
05-03-2010, 09:56 AM
Be sure to let us know when you are prepared to have a discussion based on some verifiable facts and without the ad hominem attacks.

After all of your spouting off on the subject we are left with the fact that Tulsa has Saks and Fossil and that apparently makes shopping in Tulsa "remarkably more evolved" (whatever THAT might mean)

And the fact that OKC has some stores not present in Tulsa does not count because, well, for no other reason than Spartan doesn't care about those stores.

Your whining about other cities having better retail options than OKC would be a whole lot less pathetic if you were able to back it up with some actual facts. But personal attacks are so much easier, aren't they?

And FWIW, contrary to your earlier post, Apple did NOT come to OKC and Tulsa at the same time. Tulsa was more than 2 years later than OKC.

LOL Fossil, that was so 90's, not to mention, they are cheap watches, not Rolex or Tag Heuer or something. Heck you can get Fossil at Ross or JC Penneys if you want a Fossil. Wear much Fossil do ya Spartan? Exactly, that was my point of Apple and Cheesecake Factory, that they came to Tulsa AFTER more than a year of success in OKC.


WOW, you really totally lose it when someone challenges you with actual facts, don't you?

(1) I never said anything about Whole Foods or Anthropologie not being retail. But, for the purposes of shopping, especially shopping that attracts out of towners, Whole Foods is indeed pretty much irrelevant. Anthropologie, is, as you know, still in the coming soon category. When it opens, we'll add it to the supposedly very long list of stores Tulsa has but OKC doesn't have... and then the list will be 3 or 4 stores long!

(2) It is beyond obvious that Vans is a retailer. I was vaguely aware of what they sell, but could not really care less. You are the one who brought Vans into our conversation. I don't know or care if they have a store in OKC. But, fwiw, we "know" that the Vans YOU are talking about is coming to OKC in approximately the same way we know Anthropologie is coming to Tulsa... from the newspaper.

Allow me to remind you that I am not alleging that OKC has superior shopping. I have nothing to prove here. I think they are overall pretty comparable. You, on the other hand are alleging that Tulsa has vastly superior shopping and so far, as proof, have shown us Sak's and a Fossil store. I'll give you a freeby... Tulsa also has a Restoration Hardware. Still a long, LONG way from "remarkably more evolved."

(3) You have demonstrated over and over that you have no grasp of the facts or any actual in-depth knowledge of the retail scene and now you want us to believe that you know about Utica Square's supposed waiting list? Give us a break. If Utica Square indeed has a waiting list, why does it take them so long to fill spaces? Harold's closed almost 1 1/2 years before Anthopologie signed a lease. Waiting list, indeed. (For the record, I have never said anything about a waiting list at Penn Square and do not have any knowledge of it (and unlike you, I am not going to pretend to have knowledge I don't actually have)).

(4) I guess it makes you feel good to rail about stores you don't approve of at Penn Square, but it's hardly relevant to the conversation. It is, after all, a regional mall, and as such offers a little bit of everything.

Referring back to an earlier statement of yours... contrary to your statement, Cheesecake Factory did not open at the same time in OKC and Tulsa.

If you ever come up with some actual facts, maybe something like a list of significant length of stores that Tulsa has that are not also in OKC (without an equal number of OKC stores that Tulsa does not have), I'll be eager to see it. Until then, you're claim that Tulsa's shopping is "remarkably more evolved" is nothing but drivel.

I agree with you completely exept for the Whole Foods part, however they did get it through a corporate buyout. People DO drive to Tulsa to shop at Whole Foods. I make several trips there a year just for that and I know others that do as well.


Give it a rest already, Spartan. Utica Square is a lovely little shopping center. Nobody suggested otherwise. But, sorry, Utica Square and a couple stores OKC doesn't have do NOT constitute anything close to a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene. Nothing you have posted comes anywhere near showing such to be the case. You made a snide reference earlier to knowing people who drive from OKC to Tulsa to shop, just like people drive from rural Oklahoma to OKC to shop at Sears. I have news for you, Spartan. I've known a good number of people in my years in Tulsa who have driven to OKC to shop. People who like to shop, like to shop in different places, and no matter how much you want to denigrate it, Penn Square Mall is the best large shopping center in the state.

Personally, I would give a VERY slight edge to Tulsa, primarily because of Utica Square and Sak's, but realistically they are pretty much in the same league.

Again, when you are ready with some facts to back up your ridiculous claims, by all means let's seem them.

Personally, I'm not that impressed with Utica Square, it's just as outdated as Nichols Hills Plaza, and has less retailers. Sure, NHP doesn't have 4-5 trendy national retailers, but it makes up for the uniqueness in local flavor, many of which carry high end names. We won't mention the Dior and Chanel across the street from NHP. shhh! Does Spartan realize no one is agreeing with him on this front? Give it a rest. Tulsa is not "vastly superior" with retail options, both markets just have stuff the other market doesn't. And Penn Sq. as a mall has to carry a wide variety of retail options. I've also noticed that every time a space becomes available, they usually fill it with a more upscale and new to the market tenant than was there before.

soonerguru
05-03-2010, 10:06 AM
Personally, I'm not that impressed with Utica Square, it's just as outdated as Nichols Hills Plaza, and has less retailers.

Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods?

metro
05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
Yes, they are ok, but the buildings in Utica Square are old and could use some updating, just like NHP.

progressiveboy
05-03-2010, 11:13 AM
Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods? Crescent Market is the equivilent of Petty's just as good if not better! Since I do not shop at Balliets I have heard that Balliets is the equivilent of Miss J if not superior. Only thing US has over NHP is Saks. I always heard it is one of their marginal underperforming stores in the region, however I also hear they pay "dirt" cheap rent so that is what keeps them in business.

soonerguru
05-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Balliet's is not in Nichols Hills Plaza. There are no department stores at all at NHP.

Swake2
05-03-2010, 12:09 PM
Tulsa World: New group puts forth plan for East Village (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20100502_11_A1_Anaeri342302&allcom=1)