The last one is true, from the City Council meeting 7/20/10

Storm Cleanup

City on the hook for $450,000 in cleanup costs. City Manager said it was highly unlikely that we will be reimbursed for any significant portion (exception was specific tornado damage).

The insurance companies on are the hook for approx. 1 billion dollars in restoration efforts according to a poster on here.

We in the fire service have chosen not to put too much faith or stake in what the city manager has to say. He wants to give the appearance of gloom and doom.

The key words in your phrase are "highly unlikely". We will have to wait and see if
someone other than the homeowners and the insurance companies are ponying up monies for this cleanup effort.

So the city claims to have $450,000 in clean up efforts, a majority of which is trash and tree limbs. Do we not have a big junk pick up day once a month in the city for every resident who has trash service?

So the city claims to have $450,000 in clean up efforts, a majority of which is trash and tree limbs. Do we not have a big junk pick up day once a month in the city for every resident who has trash service?

The amount of trash and debris picked up in the regular big junk days can't begin to approximate the amount generated from the storms or the expense involved in removing it.

Larry, so far the city will not release the numbers from the amended budget to our negotiating team. They are sticking to their facts from the original projected budget. The fiscal year ends on the 30th of this month. So it will be interesting. The funny thing is that due to projections the numbers are coming back that the fire dept. would be getting a 1.5% raise this year. NOW LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR, THE FIRE DEPT. IS NOT AND I REPEAT NOT ASKING FOR A RAISE, THIS IS WHAT THE MARKET APPROACH IS SHOWING WE SHOULD GET.

I'm trying to figure out where this market is. Cities nationwide are laying off public safety and cutting salaries..... this is not an attack, but can you clarify which cities you consider to be "market"?

Larry, so far the city will not release the numbers from the amended budget to our negotiating team. They are sticking to their facts from the original projected budget. The fiscal year ends on the 30th of this month. So it will be interesting. The funny thing is that due to projections the numbers are coming back that the fire dept. would be getting a 1.5% raise this year. NOW LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR, THE FIRE DEPT. IS NOT AND I REPEAT NOT ASKING FOR A RAISE, THIS IS WHAT THE MARKET APPROACH IS SHOWING WE SHOULD GET.

Not said with a straight face I'm sure, reminds me of the famous "I did not have sex with that women quote".
It's only about the money and the passing of MAPS3.

Steve,
Are you seriously asking what the 10 city market is? You are a reporter for the DOK right?

barnold, don't insult me. I've not covered fire union contract negotiations in almost a decade. And believe it or not, it's not the most important detail I ever had to learn over my 20 years. I remember Tulsa being one of the cities... did they have wage increases for fire this last year?

[/B]

Not said with a straight face I'm sure, reminds me of the famous "I did not have sex with that women quote".
It's only about the money and the passing of MAPS3.

If you refer to former president Clinton's statement, it can't be too famous a quote to end up all that butchered up.
Oh well.

Steve,
You only insult yourself. You're a smart guy, that's been involved in the politics of the city. Why would you make such a silly question when it's just a keystroke away for you? Would you like a blanket answer on how much each of the ten cities has increased in a total average salaries or would you prefer a city by city breakdown? I'm in LA at the moment but I'm sure it wouldn't take long to research.

Here's what I found on Google: Tulsa firefighters did wage concessions. Fire departments around the country are doing the same or facing staffing cuts... not finding a lot of places giving out raises.
Maybe you're a better researcher...
On a different matter: did you see the story I did last week about the city continuing to subsidize the river boats for $700,000 a year even though they are seeing declining ridership and are only being used for excursion cruises?

If you refer to former president Clinton's statement, it can't be too famous a quote to end up all that butchered up.
Oh well.

Could/would you please answer the following, if it's NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, why does the Union continue to fight the recent judge's ruling. If the Union is so concerned about staffing, equipment, etc;, why did they not have a organized oposition until the MAPS3 Election. ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS.

Could/would you please answer the following, if it's NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, why does the Union continue to fight the recent judge's ruling. If the Union is so concerned about staffing, equipment, etc;, why did they not have a organized oposition until the MAPS3 Election. ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS.

rcjunkie, those are questions better poised to someone more acquainted with their decisions. I am not deeply immersed in the PS aspects of OKC, nor the arguments pro and con on more/less/status quo PS for the city. I tend to ask a lot of questions, but it's mainly to improve my understanding for issues that face a community I like to visit and where a few friends reside.

I'm neither cheerleader nor rock thrower for the OKC PS folk, or at least I've never meant to come across that way. I concede I am something of a cheerleader on equipment issues, but that's mainly based on my impressions, which are largely influenced by what I read here, and at the DOK.

Kevinpate, Just for the record, we have done nothing since the ruling against the arbitraitor on the 15th of July. We are weighing the options.

The last one is true, from the City Council meeting 7/20/10

Storm Cleanup

City on the hook for $450,000 in cleanup costs. City Manager said it was highly unlikely that we will be reimbursed for any significant portion (exception was specific tornado damage).

Newsflash, Oklahoma City and County are being reimbursed by FEMA for infrastructure replacement and debris cleanup as a result of hailstorm and flooding as reported by NEWS 9 at 5. I am sure the city wont tell us any different.

Newsflash, Oklahoma City and County are being reimbursed by FEMA for infrastructure replacement and debris cleanup as a result of hailstorm and flooding as reported by NEWS 9 at 5. I am sure the city wont tell us any different.

Guys,

After reading many of these posts, I think that the fire dept. does not want to take concessions because they have had to fight for years to get where they are at and if they did there is no guarantee they would ever get the concessions back without fighting to get them. I understand the city had a year of negative to flat sales tax revenues. Hopefully that is behind us now and we can focus on the future. Hopefully the city and the fire dept can put this behind them and move on to a better relationship.

Its obvious that the city is trying to reduce firefighter numbers, their benefits and their pay. So the saga continues.
These guys work their butts off in extreme heat and cold conditions. They run into burning structures when everyone else in running out of them. All of that to save our butts in a time of crisis.

In my business, if I am running short on revenue, I tighten my belt, get thru the tough time, strive to be more efficient, look for alternative ways to generate more revenue.
I would never ask my employees to take a pay cut so that I could hire more employees, no other employer with any morals would do this either. Over the past 30 years, I have employed some of these guys on their days off, the last 10 years those guys have dwindled to nothing, because they are dog tired at the end of a shift. They go home and sleep.

Its my job as an employer to make sure that I am taking care of business, so all of my people will have jobs. I adapt and overcome.

I think the fire dept is doing what they can with what they have to the best of their ability. I think that the city is using a budget crunch of last year to come after the fire dept to reduce wages, reduce staffing, reduce benefits.

You have got to be kidding me. Hell if anything, these guys deserve to be compensated better, hopefully we as citizens can do that in the future, regardless of the fued between the city and fire dept. If I were the fire dept. I would be pissed too. There job is stressful enough, without having to deal with the bureaucracy crap too.

Guys,

After reading many of these posts, I think that the fire dept. does not want to take concessions because they have had to fight for years to get where they are at and if they did there is no guarantee they would ever get the concessions back without fighting to get them. I understand the city had a year of negative to flat sales tax revenues. Hopefully that is behind us now and we can focus on the future. Hopefully the city and the fire dept can put this behind them and move on to a better relationship.

Its obvious that the city is trying to reduce firefighter numbers, their benefits and their pay. So the saga continues.
These guys work their butts off in extreme heat and cold conditions. They run into burning structures when everyone else in running out of them. All of that to save our butts in a time of crisis.

In my business, if I am running short on revenue, I tighten my belt, get thru the tough time, strive to be more efficient, look for alternative ways to generate more revenue.
I would never ask my employees to take a pay cut so that I could hire more employees, no other employer with any morals would do this either. Over the past 30 years, I have employed some of these guys on their days off, the last 10 years those guys have dwindled to nothing, because they are dog tired at the end of a shift. They go home and sleep.

Its my job as an employer to make sure that I am taking care of business, so all of my people will have jobs. I adapt and overcome.

I think the fire dept is doing what they can with what they have to the best of their ability. I think that the city is using a budget crunch of last year to come after the fire dept to reduce wages, reduce staffing, reduce benefits.

You have got to be kidding me. Hell if anything, these guys deserve to be compensated better, hopefully we as citizens can do that in the future, regardless of the fued between the city and fire dept. If I were the fire dept. I would be pissed too. There job is stressful enough, without having to deal with the bureaucracy crap too.

My god this is getting ridiculous.

I think some have been watching too many Oliver Stone films.

So do you think Hitler was misunderstood???

So do you think Hitler was misunderstood???

I must have missed soomething. Where did this come from?

It's an Oliver Stone referrence... he actually was out and about questioning whether history had been too harsh on Hitler. I kid you not.

With his track record for conspiracy theories I'm sure we'll get a nice movie from it.

With his track record for conspiracy theories I'm sure we'll get a nice movie from it.

I hear he's been seen in OKC recently enterviewing fireman, policeman, and city councilmen.

Kevinpate, Just for the record, we have done nothing since the ruling against the arbitraitor on the 15th of July. We are weighing the options.

Being that it's not, and never has been about a raise, I'm sure the Union will decide to accept the judges ruling and forgo further court challenges.

I hear he's been seen in OKC recently enterviewing fireman, policeman, and city councilmen.

You too and others on this forum could be interviewed as well. All you have to do is take your head out of the sand and see what has happened to public safety over the last 15 years or so since the implementation of MAPS. We were told this was going to enhance public safety and the city as well. Everything other than public safety has been a priority. Why should we believe them now?? Anything to do with MAPS and the core to shore projects to include the riverfront, the boathouse, bricktown and the like have been a priority. We have been told for 15 years or so we will be taken care of and then pushed aside. What you are seeing now is 15 years of frustration a dealing with city mgmt. We are no longer going to take their word at face value, ever again. We will question any and every expenditure when it effects our budget or monies are shifted from our budget to another pet peeve project. I dont think the city gets it. We are tired of being told one thing and every single time they do another.

If I seem a little pissed, you are very observant, what pisses me off even more is that you people on this forum dont care, its a joke to you, which even more sad.

You too and others on this forum could be interviewed as well. All you have to do is take your head out of the sand and see what has happened to public safety over the last 15 years or so since the implementation of MAPS. We were told this was going to enhance public safety and the city as well. Everything other than public safety has been a priority. Why should we believe them now?? Anything to do with MAPS and the core to shore projects to include the riverfront, the boathouse, bricktown and the like have been a priority. We have been told for 15 years or so we will be taken care of and then pushed aside. What you are seeing now is 15 years of frustration a dealing with city mgmt. We are no longer going to take their word at face value, ever again. We will question any and every expenditure when it effects our budget or monies are shifted from our budget to another pet peeve project. I dont think the city gets it. We are tired of being told one thing and every single time they do another.

If I seem a little pissed, you are very observant, what pisses me off even more is that you people on this forum dont care, its a joke to you, which even more sad.

It's not a joke to me and I've never said I didn't care. It's just that when we have a Mayor, Manager and Council Members that finally grow a back bone and spread budget cuts to all departments, PS employees moan, groan and cry, and talk about how understaffed and over worked they are, everyone gets tired of their "superority comnplex. Speaking on behalf of all other City Employees (including management), welcome to the club Public Safety Emplolyees. (by club, I mean the real world where everyone has had to learn how to do more with less)

You too and others on this forum could be interviewed as well. All you have to do is take your head out of the sand and see what has happened to public safety over the last 15 years or so since the implementation of MAPS. We were told this was going to enhance public safety and the city as well. Everything other than public safety has been a priority. Why should we believe them now?? Anything to do with MAPS and the core to shore projects to include the riverfront, the boathouse, bricktown and the like have been a priority. We have been told for 15 years or so we will be taken care of and then pushed aside. What you are seeing now is 15 years of frustration a dealing with city mgmt. We are no longer going to take their word at face value, ever again. We will question any and every expenditure when it effects our budget or monies are shifted from our budget to another pet peeve project. I dont think the city gets it. We are tired of being told one thing and every single time they do another.

If I seem a little pissed, you are very observant, what pisses me off even more is that you people on this forum dont care, its a joke to you, which even more sad.

Calm down. I never said this discussion is a joke or that I didn't care. Tell me where I said anything remotely like that. If a little levity can't be interjected occasionally that's really sad. Even prisoners in World War II concentration camps found some ways to amuse themselves if only for a little while. When you're at work doing your totally serious job do you go through the whole day without making one joke or smiling at anything? And if you do, does that mean you don't respect your job?

You too and others on this forum could be interviewed as well. All you have to do is take your head out of the sand and see what has happened to public safety over the last 15 years or so since the implementation of MAPS. We were told this was going to enhance public safety and the city as well. Everything other than public safety has been a priority. Why should we believe them now?? Anything to do with MAPS and the core to shore projects to include the riverfront, the boathouse, bricktown and the like have been a priority. We have been told for 15 years or so we will be taken care of and then pushed aside. What you are seeing now is 15 years of frustration a dealing with city mgmt. We are no longer going to take their word at face value, ever again. We will question any and every expenditure when it effects our budget or monies are shifted from our budget to another pet peeve project. I dont think the city gets it. We are tired of being told one thing and every single time they do another.

If I seem a little pissed, you are very observant, what pisses me off even more is that you people on this forum dont care, its a joke to you, which even more sad.

I've been setting on my front porch for the last 6 hours waiting for someone to come by and interveiw me, whats taking so long, it's less than a 3 hour drive from OKC

I've been setting on my front porch for the last 6 hours waiting for someone to come by and interveiw me, whats taking so long, it's less than a 3 hour drive from OKC

Let me get this straight.

You've been arguing all this time in favor of cutting PS jobs and budgets and in favor of not upgrading or maintaining existing equipment for a city you don't even live in?

Let me get this straight.

You've been arguing all this time in favor of cutting PS jobs and budgets and in favor of not upgrading or maintaining existing equipment for a city you don't even live in?

Let me set you straight. You need to read from the beginning of this thread. I retired from the City of OKC in 2006, was a resident of OKC for almost 30 years, my primary residence is Tuttle Ok, I spend app. 4--6 months of the year at Tenkiller. I own rental property in OKC (residentail and commercial), pay several thousands dollars per year in taxes, so I'm entitled to voice my opinion re: PS or any other subject I feel important.

Let me set you straight. You need to read from the beginning of this thread. I retired from the City of OKC in 2006, was a resident of OKC for almost 30 years, my primary residence is Tuttle Ok, I spend app. 4--6 months of the year at Tenkiller. I own rental property in OKC (residentail and commercial), pay several thousands dollars per year in taxes, so I'm entitled to voice my opinion re: PS or any other subject I feel important.

Ok, then that would be a yes. You want the police and fire department in a city you don't live in to suffer.

Thanks for being so straightforward about it.

Mighty Horse, I didn't know that OKC Talk restricted opinions expressed to those who live within city limits...

Mighty Horse, I didn't know that OKC Talk restricted opinions expressed to those who live within city limits...

I'm not trying to restrict anyone's opinion. I'm just attempting to get clarification on why someone is so vehemently attacking organizations that save lives and property while risking thier own in the process.

Personally I value reading the diversity of ideas and opinions on this site, and I really don't care where people live. I've found in some cases those who are most dedicated and passionate about OKC on this site are those who once lived here but then had to move away due to job/family or other considerations.

Mighty Horse, I didn't know that OKC Talk restricted opinions expressed to those who live within city limits...

That's strange...

During all the discussions and arguments about MAPS3 here on OKCTalk, I, and many others, were told on numerous occasions that our opinions for or against MAPS3 weren't of value if we didn't live within the City limits...

Not by me Fuzzy... and I certainly didn't see such comments made by Pete or any of the moderators.

not by you :tiphat:

Steve,
Google search- No dedicated sales tax for Tulsa, in fact I'd venture to say no positions cuts for any FD across the country that has a dedicated sales tax. Especially not one that the city leadership actually promised to add 10 positions if they could pass another specialized tax to build special projects. Or as you so aptly pointed out, spend $700,000 on river boats that won't see as many customers in a year as the FD does in a day.

Still not asking for a raise......but does anyone know what city staff received this year? I haven't done the digging yet, but think this will be my next project since I'm back home and on vacation before the kids go back to school.

I'm not aware of any raises given out this year.

So the city manager had no increase in salary or benefits? Nor any other management and staff member?

So the city manager had no increase in salary or benefits? Nor any other management and staff member?

Correct

Steve and RC,
You're both quick to answer about no raises for city staff but neither of you will address the fact the we have a dedicated PS sales tax and are still having cuts. You can only pick and choose your way around the facts for so long.

I'm not picking and choosing any facts at all barnold. There was a question by you about staff raises - I answered there hadn't been any. Yes, there is a dedicated public safety tax and as with all other taxes, I believe it's bringing in less revenue than it did two years ago. But if you wish, I'll quit answering and asking questions. You're mistaking me as someone who has a dog in this fight,. and I don't. I'm distrustful and skeptical of all involved.

Steve and RC,
You're both quick to answer about no raises for city staff but neither of you will address the fact the we have a dedicated PS sales tax and are still having cuts. You can only pick and choose your way around the facts for so long.

The last 3 years I worked Management raises were frozen while the Unions received raises, so don't look for sympathy from me.

Well, something damn odd is going on with the city budgets for the City Manager..

I'm looking at the FY09-10 final budget book for Oklahoma City(http://www.okc.gov/finance/Final%20Budget%20Book%20FY09-10-tabbed_down.pdf), and on page 57, there's a table showing how much of an increase/decrease each department got..

The largest increase is for the City Manager at 17.52%

The next highest is for the Mayor & Council at 14.41%

There's no other departments above a 10% increase, next highest after that is Finance at 6.12% and the rest of the departments all fall steadily from there, with one of them at -100%.. I won't list them all, you can follow the link..

Now, if there's no raises, where is this significant increase in the budget for those 2 departments going?

Police and Fire are supposed to do more with less, just like all the other departments, right? oh, except for the City Manager and the Mayor's office.. somehow they're allowed to do whatever it is they do with more.. 17.52% and 14.41% more..

Additional operations is my understanding. Didn't they have to hire staff to oversee Project 180 and MAPS 3? An increase in funding does not mean there was a raise in salaries.

Except the budget he is looking at was before the passage of MAPS 3 (don't know about the timing of Project 180). If not mistaken the City Manager & Mayor's office operate with a very small staff where just adding 1 person could skew the percentage increases (add that same person to a larger dept and may not have a percentage change may be minimal). On pg 114, the City Managers office added 2 positions (3 more were added but paid for thru a grant for the "Office of Sustainability"). On page 231, don't see any additional staff added to the Mayor's office, just "Changes in personnel costs due to pay plan adjustments provided in FY 2009, merit increases and employee health insurance" amount of $23,895.

Course, all of this was adopted before the midyear budget cuts and the voluntary percentage in pay by the City & Council. So don't know what effect any of that had on the adopted increases for those departments.

Also where is THIS years budget report? City's web site just has a few budget presentations and talks about the budget in the future tense (as not being finalized yet..."They are schedule to approve the 2011 budget on June 15."). But it was my understanding from a video clip being replayed on the City cable channel, that the budget was approved in late June.

Larry, I'm quite certain that if the budget includes salary hikes for management at City Hall, you'll share it with us fairly quickly. Let us know when you get the facts.

...
Also where is THIS years budget report? City's web site just has a few budget presentations and talks about the budget in the future tense (as not being finalized yet..."They are schedule to approve the 2011 budget on June 15."). But it was my understanding from a video clip being replayed on the City cable channel, that the budget was approved in late June.


Maybe they figured out folks were actually starting to follow the links and doing some reading?

Larry, I'm quite certain that if the budget includes salary hikes for management at City Hall, you'll share it with us fairly quickly. Let us know when you get the facts.

Thanks Steve...I think...not sure if that was a dig or a compliment, but will take it as a compliment...LOL

It's pretty much a compliment... you've been pretty vigilant on these matters.

Steve,
After years of dealing with the city politicians I'm skeptical and distrustful of them as well. You, just by virtue of being a journalist and resident of OKC Do have dog in the fight. Now that your off the City beat, maybe a little less than before and Bryan Dean should be on the hot seat, but I've yet to see any "hard hitting" journalistic reporting from him as of yet. The posters here have dug up more and reported more than I've seen in the DOK in the past 2 years. But please keep asking your questions, as I said in a different post; when your pissing people off with your questions and they don't have (or won't) answer your questions then you're probably on the right track.

Larry, thank you for the facts, links and figures. I wonder why more people won't respond to your posts when the politicians should be the ones in the hot seat. Apathy is my only guess. Do these people not want accountability in city government? Wonder if any of them caught the great uprising in California over the CM pay? Probably not.

Steve,
After years of dealing with the city politicians I'm skeptical and distrustful of them as well. You, just by virtue of being a journalist and resident of OKC Do have dog in the fight. Now that your off the City beat, maybe a little less than before and Bryan Dean should be on the hot seat, but I've yet to see any "hard hitting" journalistic reporting from him as of yet. The posters here have dug up more and reported more than I've seen in the DOK in the past 2 years. But please keep asking your questions, as I said in a different post; when your pissing people off with your questions and they don't have (or won't) answer your questions then you're probably on the right track.

Larry, thank you for the facts, links and figures. I wonder why more people won't

respond to your posts when the politicians should be the ones in the hot seat. Apathy
is my only guess. Do these people not want accountability in city government? Wonder if any of them caught the great uprising in California over the CM pay?
Probably not.

And the CM pay in California has what to do with OKC? Absolutlely nothing

RC,
Directly with Cali...nothing. It's just a sign of the times that people are tired of politicians fleecing the public they are supposed to serve. Now get back to the post of the nearly $19 million that gets diverted to the general fund every year from the Dedicated PS sales tax. You were in management weren't you? Or how about Larry's post #464, has management received an increase in pay or benefits? Surely you could use your strong ties to the upper tiers of the council to post what should be public record.

Larry, I'm quite certain that if the budget includes salary hikes for management at City Hall, you'll share it with us fairly quickly. Let us know when you get the facts.

DISCLAIMER: This info is from the "Option 2" budget passed by the Council in June (presuming it passed as proposed, without any changes).


While there were proposed increases cited by barnold & fuzzytoad in an earlier post (last budget year), they are no longer there in this years budget. Both the Mayor/City Manager's offices show a decline. Both offices are showing not only a decline from the proposed increase in last years budget, but a decline from the actual amount the previous year.

page 59 (68 of PDF)

City Manager (-10.16%)
08-09: $2,523,494 (actual)
09-10: $2,774,213 (adopted)
10-11: $2,492,356 (proposed)

Mayor & Council (-7.96%)
08-09: $915,235 (actual)
09-10: $953,895 (adopted)
10-11: $878,008 (proposed)

Additional operations is my understanding. Didn't they have to hire staff to oversee Project 180 and MAPS 3? An increase in funding does not mean there was a raise in salaries.

For what its worth...

Didn't see any reference to the Project 180, but when it comes to the staff added for MAPS 3, the funds are coming from the MAPS 3 tax itself (rather than from the General Fund)

2010-11 Option 2 Budget (approved June 2010)

page 13 (21 of PDF)

In addition to establishing the new MAPS3 Program, the City Manager's Office has contracted with Oklahoma City Public Schools to manage their new bond projects through the MAPS office. To begin staffing the MAPS3 Program and to assist with the new school bond program, the MAPS Office will add a total of four positions. The funding for these four positions, as well as seven current positions, will be split between OCMAPS and MAPS3 both of which have dedicated temporary funding sources and are not included in the General Fund budget.

RC,
Directly with Cali...nothing. It's just a sign of the times that people are tired of politicians fleecing the public they are supposed to serve. Now get back to the post of the nearly $19 million that gets diverted to the general fund every year from the Dedicated PS sales tax. You were in management weren't you? Or how about Larry's post #464, has management received an increase in pay or benefits? Surely you could use your strong ties to the upper tiers of the council to post what should be public record.

It's impossible to explain the budget process to you, your glasses are, and always will be, Fire engine red and narrow focused. The money transfers your talking about were to cover expenses (PS Expenses) until the dedicated funds from the PS sales tax are in place. (then transfered back to appropriate source)

RC,
I guess they just missed that extra transfer of $19 million each year back to where it belongs. Come back to OKC sometime from tuttle or the lake or wherever besides OKC you are residing nowadays and I'll give you a finance lesson. You are truly a Moron with a nosering that has been led around and told what to say and do the majority of your Parks department career........and now i've broken my own promise to not call you names. Dangit!

Don't beat yourself up barnlod. You were only pointing out an obvious fact. He only serves one purpose on this forum anyway. He plays the role of antagonist. He always has. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned in his alter-ego, danielf1935. Just me mentioning this fact, and he knows it's a fact, will bring on another rash of lies and denials.

Barnold, you should keep to your promise. I know it's hot out there. I know tempers run short in this environment. But is it really necessary to start calling people names?
With all due respect - what I tell my sons is that namecalling is a desperate last act of someone who has no good arguments left to make. You're better than this.

Don't beat yourself up barnlod. You were only pointing out an obvious fact. He only serves one purpose on this forum anyway. He plays the role of antagonist. He always has. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned in his alter-ego, danielf1935. Just me mentioning this fact, and he knows it's a fact, will bring on another rash of lies and denials.

Don't worry, your not worthy of a response!!

And yet respond you must. Like some sort of cosmic, gravitational urge toward rectal-cranial inversion. RC, you are a peach.

And yet respond you must. Like some sort of cosmic, gravitational urge toward rectal-cranial inversion. RC, you are a peach.

I'm honored, barnold, mg and wambo have all three addresed me, all be it with their usual name calling, oh well, I guess that's how one responds when they have nothing of value to offer. Goodbye my friends and see you the next time someone lifts the rock or turns on the light.