^^^
Think all of the things you mentioned were thrown out there as possible solutions to the budget cuts. Saw it in one of the Council meetings awhile back.

So here's something I heard today and I'm curious why it's not pursued: cut the math and go with something simple: top management takes a 5 percent wage cut, everyone else gets a 3 percent cut, and then let's live within our means.
(Something tells me no one is going to go with this)

Steve...I think folks were doing pert good living within their means before McDonald's and Jack-in-the-Box came along.

So here's something I heard today and I'm curious why it's not pursued: cut the math and go with something simple: top management takes a 5 percent wage cut, everyone else gets a 3 percent cut, and then let's live within our means.
(Something tells me no one is going to go with this)

Who do you think will turn it down? It's been our experience that the 3% will just be a starting point. Right now we're hearing about 10% to 12%. That doesn't have anything to do with top management. Yet.

I have some friends who right now who would have gladly given up 10 percent of their salary to stay employed. And those of us who had to console our former coworkers would have been fine with a 3 percent across the board pay-cut if it had prevented more layoffs. The disconnect between the public and private sector bewilders me....
This whole conversation doesn't make sense to me anymore, so I think I'm going to stay out of this thread. The police and firefighters who have known me for 20 years know I'm not anti-public safety and the folks at City hall who have know for almost as long, I think, know I have a great deal of respect for them as well.
I'm not gaining any new insight here, so I'll leave any further probing and questioning to Bryan Dean, the beat reporter.

I have some friends who right now who would have gladly given up 10 percent of their salary to stay employed. And those of us who had to console our former coworkers would have been fine with a 3 percent across the board pay-cut if it had prevented more layoffs. The disconnect between the public and private sector bewilders me....
This whole conversation doesn't make sense to me anymore, so I think I'm going to stay out of this thread. The police and firefighters who have known me for 20 years know I'm not anti-public safety and the folks at City hall who have know for almost as long, I think, know I have a great deal of respect for them as well.
I'm not gaining any new insight here, so I'll leave any further probing and questioning to Bryan Dean, the beat reporter.

No, I think you missed my point. Do you think it will be turned down by the employees unions or top management? As far as the disconnect between public and private sector, I'm not sure what you mean. I have a family member that was laid off several weeks ago and if you think watching your co-workers suffer is tough, you should try it with a sibling.

Answer me this if you can, with this last round of layoffs at the DOK and with them cutting the budget to the bone, did upper management still retain their memberships to Gaillardia that they refused to even discuss giving up last time? How about all the seats around the floor sections at the Thunder games? All payed for by the company. Maybe that's what you mean by "the disconnect between the public and private sector", get rid of people first and perks last.

I think it goes both ways. If they KNEW that a paycut would mean that no one may lose their jobs, then some would be for it. Others would say, no way am I taking a pay cut, let the chips fall where they may. Of course hoping they wouldn't be one of those cut, they might change their tune if they did get cut.

I think one of the main differences in the private/public sector is in the private sector (non-union), you may or may not know why someone was let go and another was kept. It might have been a simple case of who had been there the longest (typically making the most money) or it might be based on performance or it might be last hired, first fired. It seems that with a union type structure, it is last hired, first fired and other considerations don't come into play.

From my own experience, my current employer had layoffs about year ago and in my department we took a voluntary pay cut of sorts (we used to get paid for lunch, now we don't). For most that meant a minimum 2.5 hrs a week. Not a huge amount but when multiplied by number of employees etc, it might end up saving someone's job (and the job it saves may be your own). Am I thrilled about the cut in hours? No, but thankful to still be employeed and have insurance etc.

And no, the 2.5 hrs wasn't the only cutback...401K and other "perks" went by the wayside as they have with a lot of companies recently.

FLyonthewall,

The double books (ledger) is perfectly legal and is a common practice for municipalities. However the general public will usually not dig into these to find where the money goes. I am aware of how vacation and holidays are budgeted and tracked along with salary savings and I believe it's good to plan for the worst case scenario. But here is what NO ONE has answered in your simple math problem.

City budgets 100 million dollars (not an actual figure) for all employees benefits, vacations, holiday, health, salary for FY09-10.
City only spends 90 million on above listed expenses in FY09-10.
Where did 10 million go that was budgeted and why is this not reflected in the budget report by the city the following year.

On a side note- not directed at flyonthewall.
I find it amazing that we can have civilized discussions on the board for a great deal of the time and it only seems to turn ugly when someone is called out. They turn and want the moderator to throw someone off for a personal attack but will still not verify the lies and misinformation that the are allowed to spread in the first place. Luckily we moderators on the site that see through the BS. Now compare this with how city employees must deal with our leadership. We constantly must call BS on our leadership when their information is off, but our moderator is in the form of a judge. Think we're such the big bullies? Look at how many times the moderator ie. judge has ruled in favor of the unions vs. the city. The city is generally the bully pulling the strings.

FLyonthewall,

The double books (ledger) is perfectly legal and is a common practice for municipalities. However the general public will usually not dig into these to find where the money goes. I am aware of how vacation and holidays are budgeted and tracked along with salary savings and I believe it's good to plan for the worst case scenario. But here is what NO ONE has answered in your simple math problem.

City budgets 100 million dollars (not an actual figure) for all employees benefits, vacations, holiday, health, salary for FY09-10.
City only spends 90 million on above listed expenses in FY09-10.
Where did 10 million go that was budgeted and why is this not reflected in the budget report by the city the following year.

On a side note- not directed at flyonthewall.
I find it amazing that we can have civilized discussions on the board for a great deal of the time and it only seems to turn ugly when someone is called out. They turn and want the moderator to throw someone off for a personal attack but will still not verify the lies and misinformation that the are allowed to spread in the first place. Luckily we moderators on the site that see through the BS. Now compare this with how city employees must deal with our leadership. We constantly must call BS on our leadership when their information is off, but our moderator is in the form of a judge. Think we're such the big bullies? Look at how many times the moderator ie. judge has ruled in favor of the unions vs. the city. The city is generally the bully pulling the strings.

I agree with this part of your statement. Because I have different opinions and view points and voiced them, the claws were sharpened and the attacks began. So much for living in a society where freedom of speech applied to everyone.

FLyonthewall,

City budgets 100 million dollars (not an actual figure) for all employees benefits, vacations, holiday, health, salary for FY09-10.
City only spends 90 million on above listed expenses in FY09-10.
Where did 10 million go that was budgeted and why is this not reflected in the budget report by the city the following year.


I understand the question and I hear this from people and I think this statement represents a basis for the misunderstanding.

Yes, the City budgets 100 million dollars for a department’s total compensation for FY09-10. The ability to pay for this department is based on projected revenues. They don't take an existing pool of 100 million dollars and set it up in an expense account. Now, if actual revenues consistently come in 17% below projections like what happened this year, you revise your projections down accordingly. So now you expect only 83 million dollars and you have to implement hiring freezes or some other measure. Maybe you get your payroll expenses down to 90 million and redirect maintenance funds to close the gap and end up with 90 million in expenses. This is the scenario you describe and it doesn’t mean that 10 million dollars mysteriously disappeared. It means you made adjustments to get your expenses in line with the actual revenues.

The City needs to be very careful about balance. Cities have gone bankrupt when one portion of their service costs gets out of line with revenues. And, sadly, it’s usually driven by the adversarial attitude between Public Safety unions and Leadership. I’ve studied Cities on the same curve OKC is on. Usually PS (Fire and Police) cost cover 45% - 55% of services cost. When they start creeping above that, trouble is on the horizon…bad trouble. 10 years ago OKC was in the above range and now it’s closer to 65%. If you think things are nasty now, let that balance continue to get out of whack.

But one example: Bankrupt City Has Power to Void Union Contracts, Judge Says (http://news.findlaw.com/andrews/bf/bnk/20090326/20090326_vallejo.html)

This an email I just received from the a local "watchdog" group: (curious as to what people have to say about it)

Subject: Budget Proposal Points
Key Points from Budget Proposals by the City Manager and Budget Director

1. The city budget office plans to move 70 fire and police positions out of the general fund freeing up over 5 million dollars for other uses by the city. They then plan to pay for those positions with MAPS 3 use tax monies creating the appearance of using MAPS 3 for public safety. If public safety employees can only be added if concessions are made, then the concessions add employees not MAPS 3 use tax monies.

2. The city budget office further intends to terminate 22 police officers, 29 firefighters, and 49 non-uniformed positions unless the employees themselves take up a collection, through wage concessions, to pay for these positions. If the employees agree to pay for staffing shortages themselves, only then, will the city add the ten new firefighters and 20 new policemen as promised by the MAPS 3 campaign.

3. By cutting the police and fire department positions, the city will be in violation of the 1989 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax, thus putting The City of Oklahoma City up for a taxpayer lawsuit, equivalent to what happen in 1993.

4. The city manager’s office intends to cut two positions in this budget proposal, but add four new positions for MAPS 3. It appears that the city manager's office it taking a cut, but in reality it will be adding two new positions in the office.

Also, on April 13th the council went into executive session to discuss the compensation for the City Manager, Municipal Counselor, City Auditor, and Municipal Judges. Why was this done in executive session and not in a public meeting for the citizens to see and hear? In regards to the Open Records Act, shouldn't the citizens know the salaries for each of these positions last year and what will be the salaries for each of these positions in the upcoming year. Where these employees asked to take concessions?

Please contact your council person or the city manager's office.

This an email I just received from the a local "watchdog" group: (curious as to what people have to say about it)

Subject: Budget Proposal Points
Key Points from Budget Proposals by the City Manager and Budget Director

1. The city budget office plans to move 70 fire and police positions out of the general fund freeing up over 5 million dollars for other uses by the city. They then plan to pay for those positions with MAPS 3 use tax monies creating the appearance of using MAPS 3 for public safety. If public safety employees can only be added if concessions are made, then the concessions add employees not MAPS 3 use tax monies.

2. The city budget office further intends to terminate 22 police officers, 29 firefighters, and 49 non-uniformed positions unless the employees themselves take up a collection, through wage concessions, to pay for these positions. If the employees agree to pay for staffing shortages themselves, only then, will the city add the ten new firefighters and 20 new policemen as promised by the MAPS 3 campaign.

3. By cutting the police and fire department positions, the city will be in violation of the 1989 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax, thus putting The City of Oklahoma City up for a taxpayer lawsuit, equivalent to what happen in 1993.

4. The city manager’s office intends to cut two positions in this budget proposal, but add four new positions for MAPS 3. It appears that the city manager's office it taking a cut, but in reality it will be adding two new positions in the office.

Also, on April 13th the council went into executive session to discuss the compensation for the City Manager, Municipal Counselor, City Auditor, and Municipal Judges. Why was this done in executive session and not in a public meeting for the citizens to see and hear? In regards to the Open Records Act, shouldn't the citizens know the salaries for each of these positions last year and what will be the salaries for each of these positions in the upcoming year. Where these employees asked to take concessions?

Please contact your council person or the city manager's office.

NikonNurse, say it isnt so, that 5 million dollar figure is exactly what the city gave to the okc chamber of commerce last year.

This is my take on what is going on as well. The police and fire are supposed to take concessions so they can hire more staffing out of their own pockets. Somebody, tell me what is wrong with this picture? Oh, I know, thats right, they are overpaid and underworked, we have had this discussion before. lol.
Lets try overworked and underpaid, remember these men and women work 60 hours a week, not 40, in the most adverse of conditions.

You wont catch me running into burning buildings or getting shot at.
Its easy for us to sit back and criticize these guys when we have no idea what they go through for our safety and well-being on a daily basis.
Have you ever wondered why these men and womens life expectancy is 15-20
years less than ours is? Could it be all of the hazards that they face, the wear and tear on their body and mind. A large percentage of these people retire and die within 5 years of retirement, which is fine and dandy if you retire at 65, not 45 or 50. What a deal.

Back to the subject, you are correct if any of these PS positions are cut, I know of several people who are preparing for a taxpayer lawsuit against the city.

Remember, what the Mayor spouted during the MAPS3 campaign, we are going to have the best trained, best equipped, best paid police and fire in the region. The city is going to be held to that promise, that is what many voted for in the MAPS3 election, just as important as the projects themselves. Lets do what we said we are going to do.

About the executive session, in discussing the City Mgr and staffs pay.
This is par for the course. Hell no, they dont want us to know what their salaries and compensation are. Furthermore, they dont want their employees knowing that they are going to get bonuses based on the cuts made to their depts. I cant wait for the responses.

Fire away.....

5% pay cut, furlough days, no merit raise.....I don't care, I want to see people including myself keep their jobs with the city. I like my job & I'm thankfull for it, & things will get better in the future. In the mean time I will continue to serve the citizens of Oklahoma City. If jobs need to be cut.....get rid of some of the lazy worthless jerks that we have now & tell the Unions to shove it.

5% pay cut, furlough days, no merit raise.....I don't care, I want to see people including myself keep their jobs with the city. I like my job & I'm thankfull for it, & things will get better in the future. In the mean time I will continue to serve the citizens of Oklahoma City. If jobs need to be cut.....get rid of some of the lazy worthless jerks that we have now & tell the Unions to shove it.

I feel your frustration, my point being, no body has to lose their jobs nor pay if the city focuses their attention on the needs and not the wants.

If you eliminate that 5 million dollars that was given to the okc chamber of commerce and other such monies along that same line and put it towards your employees to get through this tough year, guess what nobody has to go home, not even the worthless guys that you are referring too. I dont know what dept you are referring too, but it really doesnt matter.

Your 5% pay cut, along with furlough days, no merit raises and the like end up being in the 10%-12% pay cut range. The city didnt think that you were smart enough to figure this out. That is not acceptable.

I am sure that you are thankful for your job and appreciate it. Good luck to you. If you are a new hire to the police or fire, go drop an application into Norman, Moore, MWC, they are bathing in our lost tax revenue, just go ask em. OKC used to be the standard on which they were paid. OKC is now holding them back, they have washed their hands of us, so to speak..

5% pay cut, furlough days, no merit raise.....I don't care, I want to see people including myself keep their jobs with the city. I like my job & I'm thankfull for it, & things will get better in the future. In the mean time I will continue to serve the citizens of Oklahoma City. If jobs need to be cut.....get rid of some of the lazy worthless jerks that we have now & tell the Unions to shove it.


The Daily disappointment, I mean Oklahoman, is laying off 57 workers. What
do you want to bet they didnt come to their employees and say hey if you give us a 12% of your pay and benefits, we will keep those 57 workers around.

This an email I just received from the a local "watchdog" group: (curious as to what people have to say about it)

...

Also, on April 13th the council went into executive session to discuss the compensation for the City Manager, Municipal Counselor, City Auditor, and Municipal Judges. Why was this done in executive session and not in a public meeting for the citizens to see and hear? In regards to the Open Records Act, shouldn't the citizens know the salaries for each of these positions last year and what will be the salaries for each of these positions in the upcoming year. Where these employees asked to take concessions?


It is not at all uncommon for specific positions to be discussed in executive session. Any actual votes would, or should, be cast in a public session after coming out of executive session. That being the case, to suggest otherwise via the email seems to detract from the overall message. Then again, maybe the watchdog did not know what is and is not part of an executive session and simply summarized information provided from another.

Please contact your council person or the city manager's office.

I'd contact my Council Rep, Patrick Ryan, but he is too high and mighty to answer a simple e-mail. His secretary probably checks the campaign contributor's list and doesn't see my name. If he runs for re-election he will NOT be re-elected!

This an email I just received from the a local "watchdog" group: (curious as to what people have to say about it)

Subject: Budget Proposal Points
Key Points from Budget Proposals by the City Manager and Budget Director

1. The city budget office plans to move 70 fire and police positions out of the general fund freeing up over 5 million dollars for other uses by the city. They then plan to pay for those positions with MAPS 3 use tax monies creating the appearance of using MAPS 3 for public safety. If public safety employees can only be added if concessions are made, then the concessions add employees not MAPS 3 use tax monies.

2. The city budget office further intends to terminate 22 police officers, 29 firefighters, and 49 non-uniformed positions unless the employees themselves take up a collection, through wage concessions, to pay for these positions. If the employees agree to pay for staffing shortages themselves, only then, will the city add the ten new firefighters and 20 new policemen as promised by the MAPS 3 campaign.

3. By cutting the police and fire department positions, the city will be in violation of the 1989 3/4 cent Public Safety Sales Tax, thus putting The City of Oklahoma City up for a taxpayer lawsuit, equivalent to what happen in 1993.

4. The city manager’s office intends to cut two positions in this budget proposal, but add four new positions for MAPS 3. It appears that the city manager's office it taking a cut, but in reality it will be adding two new positions in the office.

Also, on April 13th the council went into executive session to discuss the compensation for the City Manager, Municipal Counselor, City Auditor, and Municipal Judges. Why was this done in executive session and not in a public meeting for the citizens to see and hear? In regards to the Open Records Act, shouldn't the citizens know the salaries for each of these positions last year and what will be the salaries for each of these positions in the upcoming year. Where these employees asked to take concessions?

Please contact your council person or the city manager's office.

No need to try and make this an issue, compensation discussion for these positions have always been conducted this way, when decisions are made, the findings are announced on record and always reported by the media.. The citizens know these salaries, it's public record and available to any and everyone. Nice try though!!

5% pay cut, furlough days, no merit raise.....I don't care, I want to see people including myself keep their jobs with the city. I like my job & I'm thankfull for it, & things will get better in the future. In the mean time I will continue to serve the citizens of Oklahoma City. If jobs need to be cut.....get rid of some of the lazy worthless jerks that we have now & tell the Unions to shove it.


I agree, however this will never happen, thanks to the Unions it's done strictly by seniority, last one hired, first one laid off.

I understand the question and I hear this from people and I think this statement represents a basis for the misunderstanding.

Yes, the City budgets 100 million dollars for a department’s total compensation for FY09-10. The ability to pay for this department is based on projected revenues. They don't take an existing pool of 100 million dollars and set it up in an expense account. Now, if actual revenues consistently come in 17% below projections like what happened this year, you revise your projections down accordingly. So now you expect only 83 million dollars and you have to implement hiring freezes or some other measure. Maybe you get your payroll expenses down to 90 million and redirect maintenance funds to close the gap and end up with 90 million in expenses. This is the scenario you describe and it doesn’t mean that 10 million dollars mysteriously disappeared. It means you made adjustments to get your expenses in line with the actual revenues.

The City needs to be very careful about balance. Cities have gone bankrupt when one portion of their service costs gets out of line with revenues. And, sadly, it’s usually driven by the adversarial attitude between Public Safety unions and Leadership. I’ve studied Cities on the same curve OKC is on. Usually PS (Fire and Police) cost cover 45% - 55% of services cost. When they start creeping above that, trouble is on the horizon…bad trouble. 10 years ago OKC was in the above range and now it’s closer to 65%. If you think things are nasty now, let that balance continue to get out of whack.



Fly, I understand all of that, but you still skirt the question. We've had less than 2 years to date for the past 20 in which city revenues fell below budgeted items. The city has had a windfall of profits all the way thru 2008. Where did the money go? It wasn't until last year that the budgets had to be cut. And again, they double budget for time actually worked and benefit time? Where does the surplus go? I agree that cities must be careful about their balances and not let costs get out of whack, but they are still accountable to the citizens whom they serve.

The city budget meetings are more smoke and mirrors than a carney show. I've chosen to educate myself over the years about the process but feel it would be nice if our council did the same.

Yes, the City budgets 100 million dollars for a department’s total compensation for FY09-10. The ability to pay for this department is based on projected revenues. They don't take an existing pool of 100 million dollars and set it up in an expense account. Now, if actual revenues consistently come in 17% below projections like what happened this year, you revise your projections down accordingly. So now you expect only 83 million dollars and you have to implement hiring freezes or some other measure. Maybe you get your payroll expenses down to 90 million and redirect maintenance funds to close the gap and end up with 90 million in expenses. This is the scenario you describe and it doesn’t mean that 10 million dollars mysteriously disappeared. It means you made adjustments to get your expenses in line with the actual revenues.

You make a good point as to what happens when the taxes come in below projections. So if they've been doing this for all the years that the taxes have been coming in above projections, or at projected amounts, where does the extra go? I think the point being made is that they use the budgeted amount to put out to the media, not the actual amount spent. Kind of misleading.

I think what barnold is asking is, how can they allot money for every day I'm supposed to work along with every day of leave that I accrue? They put money in the budget for both, knowing they only have to pay one or the other. I can't work every day of my schedule and get all of my vacation days off also. If I take a day of vacation they will only pay me for the vacation time. What happens to the money they budgeted to pay me for working that day. Confused yet?

Let's see ... as I recall from the campaign ads, the mayor said that passage of MAPS 3 would put more police and firefighters out on the streets. He said this even though the council had not voted on any such offer to dedicate the MAPS 3 use tax to do so.
But barnold, remember, I wasn't included on coverage of the campaign. But I can repeat the facts as well as anybody else.

Steve, my most sincere apologies for ever doubting you. I just had to go back and re-read through the softness of your key strokes. You actually did say the Mayor lied to us, I just had to read between the lines and see that you called it "misled" in a later post on page 6 along with this one. I wish you were back on the city beat again asking those hard hitting questions. Perhaps Mr. Dean will get to the bottom of all of this with his hard hitting questions and journalistic reporting of all sides of the issues. Forgive me for doubting you and asking questions.

Stay safe.

With the qualifier of "if he is indeed preparing to cut firefighter and police positions".... and don't stop asking questions and challenging folks. What seems to have happened here is that the mayor made promises during the campaign that required an agreement by the council that he didn't have - at least not in the form of a vote in a public meeting.
To be fair to the mayor, I can see how one might get caught up in the attention given to that position and forget that in many respects it's just one of nine votes.

Steve, I think your kid gloves handling of this is not doing a journalist justice. Mayor Cornett has been at this long enough to know exactly what he was doing by making the statements that he did. Politically calculated, I believe. If it was him speaking out of turn, then what does that say about our big league city Mayor? That would make him appear somewhat amateurish and unrefined.

I don't think the Mayor intentionally lied about using the Use Tax. Given the recent Council meetings where he urged the Council to make the it formal by way of vote is telling in that regard. I also feel that the Council was on board with it (but without a formal vote). As the negotiator it would make no sense for the City Manager to offer something that the Council wasn't going to vote for. Total waste of everyone's time. I don't have the link handy but the City Manager said as much...said that he went to each Council person for their approval and he got at least the majority of them to do so. From the way the article read, he went to the Council people singularly or in small numbers to avoid a open meeting law requirements etc. (not implying any impropriety). Don't know how close the approval was and if it was close, there may have been a case of 1 or 2 votes switching on this point after the election.

Now did others lie? Mr. Prator said in the news conference (with Marrs & Cornett not taking issue) that the Use Tax money would guarantee that no Public Safety layoffs would occur for the next 2 years NO MATTER HOW BAD the revenue. Some council people were on record before MAPS 3 was announced that they were against using a temporary tax to fund perm positions. Why they decided to voice their opposition before and after the MAPS 3 vote but remained silent on the issue during the campaign?

Larry, I don't think that I am so naive to believe that a play on words might not be used to help pass the vote. This is politics, plain and simple. Let's run this thing, say whatever we need to and see what happens. You know, when it's all over we can claim nobody really ever voted on any thing, so no one will have to carry any blame.

Then we can lay any blame on F & P because those selfish turds will want to hold on to whatever benefits they have earned over the years. Remember we have a huge fund balance and rainy day fund that could easily get us through this year.

Now if you are one of the few who still read the DOK, they would have you believe that F & P have a civic duty to give back part of their salaries. You know you guys need to be more like Tulsa and do what they did. Only problem with that is the 3/4% sales tax that OKC has and Tulsa doesnt. Im curious what the DOK's take on reducing the 5 million dollars the city gave the Chamber of Commerce is? Im thining they would say it needs to be increased to stimulate business.

Mike, I understand what you are saying and normally would be in agreement, but I just don't see the Mayor badly with this particular point.

Were things said and done during the campaign that were spin, half-truths and in some cases out right lies? Absolutely (especially from the Chamber). Now the Mayor is complicit with those as well since he was the the head of the Campaign (which I saw as a direct violation of the law that says the City can not campaign for an issue). IMO. He wasn't giving his support as ordinary citizen Mick Cornett, but was listed/identified/self-introduced as OKC Mayor, Mick Cornett.

And I agree completely that things are said during the campaign and then the "not my fault" starts up. The Chamber even denied any responsibility for making sure that those that made the claims, keep their end of it. There response was, "sorry, not our job...we were only there to make sure MAPS 3 passed" (apparently without any regard to the truth or what passes for it now days).

My points exactly. Win at any cost. Deal with the fallout later.

Sour grapes are hard to swallow!!!

I believe the words that the mayor used on the maps 3 issue were " adding more fire PROTECTION" to the streets. we picked up that he never said add more personal just more fire protection which can be taken in many ways.

Sour grapes are hard to swallow!!!Not if you chew them first.

Sour grapes are hard to swallow!!!

Well rc, contributing eloquently to the conversation, as usual.

And I do believe RC said he would be one of the first at city hall to complain if F&P protection was reduced? Gonna have to check previous posts again. LOL

I believe the words that the mayor used on the maps 3 issue were " adding more fire PROTECTION" to the streets. we picked up that he never said add more personal just more fire protection which can be taken in many ways.

from Steve's post #133 in this thread (quoting the Mayor):


"A yes vote puts more police and fire jobs out on the streets"
I'll be as interested as anybody to hear how this is addressed. So now here's the question, with this in mind, and I'm not taking sides here, does this cause some to question the mayor's other promises relating to MAPS 3? ...

Then there were numerous times they said specifically that more fire/police would be added if MAPS 3 passed and the inverse would be true (public safety issues would multiply if MAPS 3 and its related Use Tax were defeated). The promise by Prator (with Marrs & Cornett not correcting him) that MAPS 3 Use Tax would guarantee that no positions would be lost over the next 2 years NO MATTER WHAT happened with revenues.

from Steve's post #133 in this thread (quoting the Mayor):



Then there were numerous times they said specifically that more fire/police would be added if MAPS 3 passed and the inverse would be true (public safety issues would multiply if MAPS 3 and its related Use Tax were defeated). The promise by Prator (with Marrs & Cornett not correcting him) that MAPS 3 Use Tax would guarantee that no positions would be lost over the next 2 years NO MATTER WHAT happened with revenues.

Herein lies the problem. He was allowed to make those statements, unchallenged, by the people who are supposed to ask the tough questions. My first question to him would have been "Why are you making promises about city services when you work for the county and have absolutely no input into these city decisions?"

I have to tell you Larry, until someone with some press credentials and a platform from which to present the facts cares enough to ask them these type of questions, they'll always have deniability.

Herein lies the problem. He was allowed to make those statements, unchallenged, by the people who are supposed to ask the tough questions. My first question to him would have been “Why are you making promises about city services when you work for the county and have absolutely no input into these city decisions?”

I have to tell you Larry, until someone with some press credentials and a platform from which to present the facts cares enough to ask them these type of questions, they’ll always have deniability.

True but have to remember why those particular individuals were at the press conference (the day after the Not this MAPS/Public Safety opposition was announced). The Mayor and a sitting councilman who just happened to be “a third-generation firefighter, born and raised in Oklahoma City, who served as Fire Chief from 1993 to 2002” and representing the other side of law enforcement, Mr. Prater. Guess he was the highest ranking law enforcement related person they could get (former Cleveland County Deputy Sheriff & Norman Master Police Officer). Fact that he currently is County and not City, minor detail.

And I do believe RC said he would be one of the first at city hall to complain if F&P protection was reduced? Gonna have to check previous posts again. LOL

Absolutely, I will be at the Council meeting a week from today and plan on signing up tp speak against ANY CUTS.

Well rc, contributing eloquently to the conversation, as usual.

It doesn't matter how I respond, the claws are sharpened and the attacks begin no matter what I post.

Somehow I see the disaster from last night making it hard to cut positons.

Somehow I see the disaster from last night making it hard to cut positons.

wow... They are still looking for victims and you're using this disaster to push your agenda... disturbing. Can you wait like maybe a week to push your firemen union crap please? Now is not the time for this.

wow... They are still looking for victims and you're using this disaster to push your agenda... disturbing. Can you wait like maybe a week to push your firemen union crap please? Now is not the time for this.

I agree !!, There's a proper place and time and this isn't it.

Somehow I see the disaster from last night making it hard to cut positons.

So, more firefighters would reduce the chance of tornadoes? That's a good one, mm.

You know, I stood at the command post last night watching as all of our resources began rolling in. I was proud of what we as the public safety departments were doing. It was a smooth operation and it was seemless. You can whine about timing all you would like. But last night we did what we train for. It is where the money goes, you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Union agenda, where did that come from, hip, go stick your head back in the sand!

Lord Gerald, your an idiot! No more FF's won't control the weather. But we needed every available person to search for victims. And replace the FF that was transported to the hospital. You ought to be ashamed of that comment!

You know, I stood at the command post last night watching as all of our resources began rolling in. I was proud of what we as the public safety departments were doing. It was a smooth operation and it was seemless. You can whine about timing all you would like. But last night we did what we train for. It is where the money goes, you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Union agenda, where did that come from, hip, go stick your head back in the sand!

Lord Gerald, your an idiot! No more FF's won't control the weather. But we needed every available person to search for victims. And replace the FF that was transported to the hospital. You ought to be ashamed of that comment!

I'll just hope that a tornado strikes during one of the three nights that you guys work. That will make me feel safe.

I'll just hope that a tornado strikes during one of the three nights that you guys work. That will make me feel safe.Nice comeback. That got him.

Your hoping for a tornado? You are a class act!

Mike, you're not helping your cause here. Seriously, you guys need to hire a good PR firm. A wise man with a long political career - someone who was a true friend of the firefighters union - once told me sometimes the powerful political statement can sometimes be pure silence and to let the events of the moment do all the talking.

Hey let's keep in context what scale last night was. It was dinky folks. We didn't exactlly have a huge event on our hands. Of course the FD handled it...if they hadn't then they would have need some heads to roll from poor performance.

Everyone has to make a sacrifice MM. FF's aren't protected any more that a secretary at city hall (that I bet works harder 5 days a week and has to pay for every one of her lunches and parking). I hear FF's piss and moan so much about how they are mistreated and not given proper equipment....then I see a new fancy truck roll by with all the bells and whistles and think...something doesn't line up here. FF's are notorious for whining...like Oliver always asking "Please sir, may I have more".

Why don't you guys drop the damned retirement fund like the rest of us had to, get with reality, and quit griping all the time. And don't give me any of that crap about "you'll miss us when we aren't there". If you were doing your job for the right reasons, that wouldn't even be an option for you. Pay and retirement.....not good reasons.

Hey let's keep in context what scale last night was. It was dinky folks. We didn't exactlly have a huge event on our hands. Of course the FD handled it...if they hadn't then they would have need some heads to roll from poor performance.

Everyone has to make a sacrifice MM. FF's aren't protected any more that a secretary at city hall (that I bet works harder 5 days a week and has to pay for every one of her lunches and parking). I hear FF's piss and moan so much about how they are mistreated and not given proper equipment....then I see a new fancy truck roll by with all the bells and whistles and think...something doesn't line up here. FF's are notorious for whining...like Oliver always asking "Please sir, may I have more".

Why don't you guys drop the damned retirement fund like the rest of us had to, get with reality, and quit griping all the time. And don't give me any of that crap about "you'll miss us when we aren't there". If you were doing your job for the right reasons, that wouldn't even be an option for you. Pay and retirement.....not good reasons.

Claws are being sharpened as I post, the attack is coming, Oh well, maybe they'll stay off my back for awhile!!

Seems to be getting back to the usual name calling I see posted here everyday.....classy you all.

Let me just say, nice job last night to all involved. Not only the police and fire, but the public works dept. for keeping the water on, the utilities for working on the electric and gas and especially those public citizens willing to pitch in till help arrives. That's the Oklahoma spirit I know that carried us thru the Bombing and our last big Tornado. I've got friends both FF and non FF that were hit and are now displaced, battered and bruised. My best wishes to all that have been affected.

If you were doing your job for the right reasons, that wouldn't even be an option for you. Pay and retirement.....not good reasons.

Please enlighten us as to the proper reasons, in your opinion, we should be doing our jobs.

Claws are being sharpened as I post, the attack is coming, Oh well, maybe they'll stay off my back for awhile!!

RC, you've become a non-issue. When you accused MM of lying instead of manning up to what you had done, it became all too obvious why you troll these threads.
Not an attack, just an observation.

Maybe I can help MMs point...I have a friend who is PD. His shift is nights at Hefner 930-730. He worked Monday night. His Hefner sector is 35 miles around or around there. He is the only one that rides that on his days to work. There should be 3 but he always works short.

He got called out last pm around 6 to go to south oklahoma city (not his area) and help with search and rescue...he's still there.. almost 24 hours later. His Hefner area was covered by another officer who is in another low manned sector. And my friend...who is being relieved in an hour is expected to work his 930 shift this evening....

Its crappy, but he does it...

I cant imagine if something bigger wouldve come through or something big happens in the district he works in.

Same for fire...Some fire specialize in search and rescue...some were called out to Norman/Choctaw after working a 24 hour shift (hopefully it wasnt on a rescue truck unit who DONT get to sleep on their shifts because they get called out to EVERYTHING medical or potential medical). They will work out there today and be expected back at the fire department tomorrow..

They rob peter to pay paul in manpower and events like last night kind of reinforce the need for more not less.....

These guys bust their butts in ways I can't and won't and they seem to get grief for it constantly until the need for them personally arises for someone...

Does that sound better??

Somehow I see the disaster from last night making it hard to cut positons.

WOW. I didn't read that the way some of you did at all. What I got out of it was that it raises awareness of the needed, necessary job that our Public Safety folks perform. This IS Oklahoma and natural disasters like this happen. Does anyone here want to do it with less personnel? Even less than the the amount the City admits it is understaffed?

Seems to be getting back to the usual name calling I see posted here everyday.....classy you all.

Let me just say, nice job last night to all involved. Not only the police and fire, but the public works dept. for keeping the water on, the utilities for working on the electric and gas and especially those public citizens willing to pitch in till help arrives. That's the Oklahoma spirit I know that carried us thru the Bombing and our last big Tornado. I've got friends both FF and non FF that were hit and are now displaced, battered and bruised. My best wishes to all that have been affected.

:congrats::congrats::congrats:

Claws are being sharpened as I post, the attack is coming, Oh well, maybe they'll stay off my back for awhile!!rcjunkie, you've become quite the martyr hear lately.

Hey let's keep in context what scale last night was. It was dinky folks. We didn't exactlly have a huge event on our hands. Of course the FD handled it...if they hadn't then they would have need some heads to roll from poor performance.

Everyone has to make a sacrifice MM. FF's aren't protected any more that a secretary at city hall (that I bet works harder 5 days a week and has to pay for every one of her lunches and parking). I hear FF's piss and moan so much about how they are mistreated and not given proper equipment....then I see a new fancy truck roll by with all the bells and whistles and think...something doesn't line up here. FF's are notorious for whining...like Oliver always asking "Please sir, may I have more".

Why don't you guys drop the damned retirement fund like the rest of us had to, get with reality, and quit griping all the time. And don't give me any of that crap about "you'll miss us when we aren't there". If you were doing your job for the right reasons, that wouldn't even be an option for you. Pay and retirement.....not good reasons.I bet it wasn't all that dinky for the loved ones of the 5 people who lost their lifes last night ya think.

RC, you've become a non-issue. When you accused MM of lying instead of manning up to what you had done, it became all too obvious why you troll these threads.
Not an attack, just an observation.

:LolLolLol

rcjunkie, you've become quite the martyr hear lately.

Any man with dignity would strike back when attacked, it obvious you guys only communicate with the ones that bow at your feet and agree with every one of your views and opinions, sorry, but that's not me.

As for manning up, when the need arises, I'll do just that.

As for manning up, when the need arises, I'll do just that.

History says different danielf1935.