How Much Longer Can Shopping Malls Survive?
BY Greg LindsayTue Feb 23, 2010
How Much Longer Can Shopping Malls Survive? | Aerotropolis | Fast Company (http://www.fastcompany.com/1557242/dead-malls)

I thought this was a pretty good article.

How much longer can shopping malls survive? As long as there are teenaged girls.

But I kid. It was an interesting article.

you left out the part about having their poppas wrapped around their little pinky finger.

:LolLolLol

been there, still there, even though she's grown

Shopping malls are alive and well, they just changed the format and are called "Lifestyle Centers" and are of the mixed use variety now. If you think about the big box centers, they are really shopping malls as well. It's the traditional closed mall that is fading just as they forced change upon older outdoor open air malls and on downtown shopping years ago.

It's a matter of convenience. People, myself included, don't want to park in a sea of parking lots, walk up to a mall, and then have to navigate the crowds just to buy a pair of jeans. Inclosed malls are a product of the 70's and are on their way out.

Check out deadmalls.com. Crossroads Mall is one of the malls featured.

FTA: "Banks were only willing to underwrite what they knew, and what they were confident could be traded in large commodities. They didn't know much--"

This is nothing new. Despite what they want you to believe, banks have never been risk takers. Or perhaps it's more accurate to say that most banks have rarely been willing to accept more than minimal risk.

Banks want you to think they're assuming a HUGE amount of risk when they loan you money for a new house....especially if you're a first time buyer. So they make you put a lot of money down and pay for things like mortgage insurance, which doesn't protect you it protects them. Meanwhile up until 2008, the default rates for mortgages was pretty low AND when this occurs, they get the house back in order to resell it. Then they get lazy and sell it VERY cheaply because they don't want to hold onto real estate....because after all....they are a bank. But if they would be more patient with the resale and/or rent out houses that aren't selling as quickly, they would be raking in the dough.

Bankers fill a need but the one's I've dealt with seem to be universally scared of even a modest amount of risk.

/rant

Oh and in relation to the article, it seems like this kind of mall is already starting to appear in Edmond. Like at 15th and Bryant....that's a pretty cool looking mall....if you can really call it that.

..yet, when I go to my local enclosed mall it is packed, esecially on days when it is hot, humid, cold, or raining. In North Florida, those kinds of days are frequent. The real problem I see with shopping malls is that many were built in parts of town that are now in decline. The same thing will happen in 30 years to 'life style centers' and we will read stories about "How much longer can lifestyle centers survive".

History repeats - nothing is new. The Romans had open-air markets, then enclosed markets, then they had open-air markets again, then enclosed markets again.

What are Wal-Mart and Target? They are enclosed malls that only have 1 tennant. They have a clothing section, an electronics section, a food section, an automotive setion, a food court, etc... Enclosed malls aren't dead, they just got smaller.

Though sometimes it seems to depend on location. When you go to Penn Square on a Tuesday night and still can't get a parking spot, you can't tell me a place like that is struggling.

I can name multiple large enclosed malls that have been built or seen major additions in the last 10 years. These are just the ones I have been to.

New:
Citrus Park Town Center (1999) – Tampa, FL
International Plaza (2001) – Tampa, FL
The Mall at Millenia (2002) – Orlando, FL
Stonecrest Mall (2001) – Lithonia, GA
Roseville Galleria (2000) – Roseville, CA
Mall of Georgia (1999) - Buford, GA

Major Expansions:
Westshore Mall – Tampa, FL
Lenox Mall – Atlanta

Like I said, these are just the mall that I have been to. There might not be a lot of enclosed mall under construction right now, but how many lifestyle centers are in the works?

I've always just called them "the mall"...no "enclosed" necessary. Maybe it's because I'm young and grew up with malls as the norm, but I can't see them going anywhere anytime soon. Maybe The smaller ones will disappear, but that's the nature of the beast. I can't see places like Penn and Quail closing. I don't think the thought of malls disappearing has even crossed the minds of the vast majority of the population. Most people aren't the type to read an internet message board about this junk --- they couldn't care less about dying malls, urban infill, mixed use development, and lifestyle centers. In my opinion, these "lifestyle centers" are glorified outlet malls or strip malls.

A new 380,000 sq ft "Outlet Shoppes" mall is being bid in Oklahoma City right now (last week, actually). It is 6 buildings clustered together with a huge parking lot.

Somebody must think this concept works.

A new 380,000 sq ft "Outlet Shoppes" mall is being bid in Oklahoma City right now (last week, actually). It is 6 buildings clustered together with a huge parking lot.

For some people, an outlet mall is a 'life style center'. They are all over rural Georgia and Florida for a reason.

There certainly is a misconception about enclosed malls being dead. True, Most of everything thing that is being built these days is open air, but that doesn't mean enclosed malls are just going to close up shop or that people won't visit them anymore. As a poster said above, most of these dead enclosed malls had the area around them deteriorate, such as crossroads. Basically what I'm saying is don't expect Penn Square to go away anytime soon. It has the best shopping in okc and it's the place retailers all want to be. Plus, with oklahomas climate Id rather have an enclosed mall anyways.

It's a matter of convenience. People, myself included, don't want to park in a sea of parking lots, walk up to a mall, and then have to navigate the crowds just to buy a pair of jeans. Inclosed malls are a product of the 70's and are on their way out.

Check out deadmalls.com. Crossroads Mall is one of the malls featured.
I think online retailers like amazon.com are the biggest threats to enclosed malls.

I think online retailers like amazon.com are the biggest threats to enclosed malls.

Has Amazon.com ever made a profit? The internet is great for comparrison shopping or finding hard to get items, but nothing beats a trip to a real store. I have bought more books from real books stores in the last 2 months than I will ever buy on-line. When I buy a book it is because I want to start reading it that night.

...and yes, I know Amazon sells more than books.

I think the malls who just focus on retail will eventually die.

In my opinion the malls that are the doing the best are the ones that have multiple attractions. In a round about way mall need to go the Wal-Mart route. I do not mean cheap crap as far the eye can see. I am talking about adding a grocery store, a convention and event center, movie theater, hold public events, maybe even a wedding chappel or an indoor park.

In a nutshell, become a one stop destination that offers a variety of goods and services.

Has Amazon.com ever made a profit?

Their first profitable quarter was 4Q 2001. (Don't say it out loud.)

For the fourth quarter of 2009, they cleared $384 million after taxes.

In my observations, I see most of the struggling malls as being located in marginal suburban locations. Crossroads certainly fits this description. However, there are certain older malls located in high dollar locations and more in-town that are highly successful and would probably expand if only they could.

Our own Penn Square is an excellent example of this. Northpark in Dallas is another and Cherry Creek Mall in Denver couldn't be more successful. Along with the mall there must be some "panache" to go with the shopping experience. Good restaurants directly next to the mall (and not waaaaay out by the encircling roads), movie theaters or a surrounding supporting retail area (such as Cherry Creek North) are major factors in the success of the mall.

I will agree that the "Lifestyle Center" is now the current fad and they owe their success to planning, mixed use and attractions other than simple retail shopping. Most that are being built have aparatments or condo's attached, movie theaters, restaurants and bars. The huge one in Southlake, Texas has the Southlake Town Hall in the center so the entire thing is a little reminescent of an old-fashioned small town center. The architecture of the better ones should also lead to their long-term success.

Lifestyle centers don't even have to be located in the highest income zip codes to succeed. One in west Denver (Lakewood, I think, to be exact) and one in Littleton are both located in very modest income neighborhoods and were both renovated and new construction from 1970's era enclosed malls.

What is happening to enclosed malls is survival of the fittest, the marginal ones are closing but the strong ones who have updated both the mall and the store mix are still thriving, much of it due to the over expansion of most retail being contracted. There will always be a few who survive because of both location and retailer mix. Many of the ones that have closed have also had way too much debt burden placed upon them in the past to pay for other malls and they can never get over the hump. There will be a few who survive and thrive.

We have one that is pretty much dead and becoming a Wal-Mart, Northcross is prime location but it has iffy access and is site constrained, reminded me some of Heritage or Shepherd Mall in its final years as retail. Highland Mall is just in a "poor location" near I-35, it is old and stores have been leaving in droves, has had some "issues" in the past, it reminds me of Crossroads. The thriving traditional malls are Barton Creek (SW Austin) and Lakeline (far northwest) which are more like Quail Springs. The Penn Square like mall is the Arboretum (my former boss did the mall and office complex there), except it is an outdoor mall but they have lost some tenants to The Domain lifestyle center (where my office is located).

I think the one that is going to see the quickest rise/fall is the big box mall as many of the retailers in those close up and consolidate into the strongest ones. There is going to be a bunch of poorly sited big box property come available in the next few years. Where Dave & Busters is now is almost vacant. But that is nothing new either, go to any city and you can see where the "old" strip centers used to be, like where Casa Bonita is on Colfax in the Denver area where there is cluster after cluster of abandoned retail.

But that is nothing new either, go to any city and you can see where the "old" strip centers used to be, like where Casa Bonita is on Colfax in the Denver area where there is cluster after cluster of abandoned retail.


But somehow Casa Bonita survives, even with mediocre food......

How long is it before Quail Springs starts going down the drain?

How long is it before Quail Springs starts going down the drain?

47 years.

I thought the headline wasn't the most interesting part of the article.

I found interesting the ideas about the impact of financing on both the redevelopment of dead malls and the development of new retail centers; the "commoditization and standardization of place;" and, Leinberger's "nineteen standard real estate types" that only are considered for financing.

Leinberger's web site has a paper on alternatives to the nineteen types that I also found interesting.

Seems to me the article has significance well beyond malls for Oklahoma City downtown redevelopment as well as suburban development.