Redskin70, Are you serious? We dont have a legal department! We have to hire a lawyer. We dont have a large full time legal staff and are hiring more.

.

Yes I am serious..............!

THose men mentioned are labor lawyers who work for the unions aggressivly both FOP ande IAFF.......their not cheap either.

It is actually quite the opposite. The more I read the less sympathy I have for unions, and I didn't have very much to begin with.

Kerry,

Our fire union is no more than an employee work group who is looking out for the best interests of its workers. So enough with the Jimmy Hoffa, Im going to break your legs and bury you in concrete portrayal of us that most of you seem to have. Its simply not true. We are no different than any of you.

I myself hold 2 college degrees and am very close to getting a 3rd. I feel that I am entitled to every damn bit of the wage that I earn for the city. I have been doing this duty at the busiest station in the city for the last 20 years. So pardon me if I take offense to the all of the union bashing that is going on here. If it werent for that dreaded union, we firefighters would be working for minimum wage, with no benefits.

Sorry, if this comes across as having a bad attitude.
I am just getting tired of having to defend my job to a bunch of suit and ties or kids that are just entering the workforce.
If we get paid so much your are welcome to apply, compete and get on the fire dept. Hopefully, I will get you at my worksite, because I can assure you that you will be busting your ass for well over the 2080 hrs a year that we are paid for, but not quite the 2912 hrs we are at work. Oh, by the way good luck on getting a day off.

If speaking the truth is having a bad attitude then that is your interpretation, not mine.

To apply, call 297-FIRE.

This was a contract for several buildings, not just 420 W. Main

Thanks for info

Kerry,

Our fire union is no more than an employee work group who is looking out for the best interests of its workers. So enough with the Jimmy Hoffa, Im going to break your legs and bury you in concrete portrayal of us that most of you seem to have. Its simply not true. We are no different than any of you.

I myself hold 2 college degrees and am very close to getting a 3rd. I feel that I am entitled to every damn bit of the wage that I earn for the city. I have been doing this duty at the busiest station in the city for the last 20 years. So pardon me if I take offense to the all of the union bashing that is going on here. If it werent for that dreaded union, we firefighters would be working for minimum wage, with no benefits.

Sorry, if this comes across as having a bad attitude.
I am just getting tired of having to defend my job to a bunch of suit and ties or kids that are just entering the workforce.
If we get paid so much your are welcome to apply, compete and get on the fire dept. Hopefully, I will get you at my worksite, because I can assure you that you will be busting your ass for well over the 2080 hrs a year that we are paid for, but not quite the 2912 hrs we are at work. Oh, by the way good luck on getting a day off.

If speaking the truth is having a bad attitude then that is your interpretation, not mine.

To apply, call 297-FIRE.
Wow! Where to begin? You really think without a Union you would be working for minimum wage and no benefits? I seriously doubt that, but if minimum wage is the best you can negotiate for yourself then no wonder you need a union to do it for you.

Good luck getting a day off? Hells bells - you get two days off in a row every other day! I have to wait 5 days to get two days off in a row and I don't get the next two days for another 5 days.

Two college degrees and a third on the way? Who paid for those? It took all I had to pay for my one. I sure as hell can't afford to pay for two more.

Every job I have ever accepted (except when I work for a Union) I negotiated my income and vacation days. When you went to work for the fire department who negotiated your income and benefits?

On the second part, are you telling me the fire union has no say in the type of equipment you use? If you are a fire fighter the fire truck is office equipment.

If we were in control of the office equipment (fire trucks), do you think that we would have let the city (Chief Gary Marrs now city councilman Ward 1) take 5 of the 6 rescue squads out of service back 1998.

Answer: Absolutely not.

We knew back then that was a huge mistake. Now we are paying for it, because all of that equipment that was on the rescue squads has been on our ladder trucks for almost 12 years. If we were to keep those squads in service our ladder trucks would be in very good if not perfect condition.
Instead, we chose to run those $ 750,000 dollars ladders up and down the street like they were rescue squads which are around $ 175,000 dollars.
The maintenance cost on the ladder trucks is exponentially higher than the maintenance cost on the rescue squads, not to mention the fuel costs.

I know, what do we know? We are just of bunch of stupid, uneducated firefighters. How dare us question the powers that may be.
The proof is in what we said would happen, did in fact happen.
Now we, the fire dept and its citizens are the ones paying for it.
Great job.

okcsmokeandfire, you have to understand where these guys are coming from. Kerry is phoning it in from Florida. His actual working knowledge about the OKCFD is that he knows where OKC is. He proves this everytime he tries to get specific(see his reference to our schedule above) about anything to do with the OKCFD. You also need to go to the politics section on this board and read some of his posts. While he and I on the same page about half the time, when he jumps off that page he goes so far right he makes Ronald Reagan look like Chairman Mao. Thus the loathing of anything with the word union in it.

CaptainCouch on the other hand appears to just be here to take swipes at the FD. He's had all of 7 posts and 6 of them have been about the FD. Amazing how fast he found like minded friends.

I know, what do we know? We are just of bunch of stupid, uneducated firefighters. How dare us question the powers that may be.
The proof is in what we said would happen, did in fact happen.
Now we, the fire dept and its citizens are the ones paying for it.
Great job.

I didn't call you stupid. You called yourself stupid when you said without the union you would be working for mimimum wage. I don't know anyone with 3 college degrees making minimum wage. Don't expect me to be shocked to learn that elected officials make bad decisions. I've been on that rant for a long time.

Where do you see any firefighters supporting Steve Hunt? Almost to a man the ones I've talked to plan to just abstain rather than support either of these candidates.

Reasonable position to take, and not that easy when one cares about the future of their city.

I've sat out a few ballots over the past few decades. Not many, but when I could not see myself comfortably voting for either candidate running, yeah, been there, done that.

okcsmokeandfire, you have to understand where these guys are coming from. Kerry is phoning it in from Florida. His actual working knowledge about the OKCFD is that he knows where OKC is. He proves this everytime he tries to get specific(see his reference to our schedule above) about anything to do with the OKCFD. You also need to go to the politics section on this board and read some of his posts. While he and I on the same page about half the time, when he jumps off that page he goes so far right he makes Ronald Reagan look like Chairman Mao. Thus the loathing of anything with the word union in it.

CaptainCouch on the other hand appears to just be here to take swipes at the FD. He's had all of 7 posts and 6 of them have been about the FD. Amazing how fast he found like minded friends.

Tell me one place where any of my comments are wrong.

Good luck getting a day off? Hells bells - you get two days off in a row every other day! I have to wait 5 days to get two days off in a row and I don't get the next two days for another 5 days.

That didn't take long. Didn't even have to leave this page.

So you work 24 hour shifts too. I had no idea.

Every job I have ever accepted (except when I work for a Union) I negotiated my income and vacation days. When you went to work for the fire department who negotiated your income and benefits?

On the second part, are you telling me the fire union has no say in the type of equipment you use? If you are a fire fighter the fire truck is office equipment.Are talking about Firefighting equipment now? I thought we were talking about furniture. Are you aware of how those items differ? Sorry I'm still of the opinion that to label a (the) Union as legal counsel is still a bit of a stretch....... any of you legal types out there compare yourselves as a Union?

Wow! Where to begin? You really think without a Union you would be working for minimum wage and no benefits? I seriously doubt that, but if minimum wage is the best you can negotiate for yourself then no wonder you need a union to do it for you.

Good luck getting a day off? Hells bells - you get two days off in a row every other day! I have to wait 5 days to get two days off in a row and I don't get the next two days for another 5 days.

Two college degrees and a third on the way? Who paid for those? It took all I had to pay for my one. I sure as hell can't afford to pay for two more.

Wow! Where to begin?

What part are you not getting, the firefighters are the union.

You can doubt me all day long. If it werent for our union, we would not have the benefits and pay that we have today.

When I hired on minimum wage was $ 5.25 an hour and I hired on at $ 8.97 an hour. Not minimum wage but not much more, especially with having an associates degree and bachelors degree prior to hiring on, that I paid for myself, thank you for asking. When I got my year on the job, I got a raise to $ 11.46 a hour. Then at 3 years, to $ 14. something a hour. You get the picture. Even with college degree, you still start at the bottom and work your way up the food chain.

On my days off I sleep, to try to catch up for the 24 hrs that I just worked.
Like I said I am the busiest station in the city. We are hooked up to say the least.

After 10 pm, we avg about 5-6 calls a night, every night, 365 days a year. Each call avg is 1 hr or more, to make the call and come back and restock the truck and do the incident report on the computer. Those are just car wrecks and sick calls.

The nights we have fires, it is not uncommon to be on scene for upwards of an 1 hr and half to 2 hrs for a structure fire incident. Now this is the best part, we come back to the station and clean the tools and equipment and get ready for the next call, even in the middle of the night.

Now your next question is going to be, What do you do during the daylight hours? Thanks for asking, we flow test fire hydrants to make sure that they are going to function properly, we update drive maps and apt complexes so that we will know where we are going on a call, we are responsible for many monthly ems, hazmat and safety schools for our personnel, we do building inspections and building surveys (draw them on quickCAD) so we will know building layouts and hazards in the middle of the night. We train and train and train. Rapid Intervention Training, High Rise Training, I could list topics all day. We have to maintain the grounds at the fire station, by daily cleaning, mowing once a week, various duties each day just devoted to fire station maintenance. Pretty much anything that you can think of and dont know who to call, guess who handles that. Yep you guessed it, that would be us.

All of that, goes on in between making calls during the daytime hours. Our station cook goes to the grocery store on his own time while on his way to work at 5 am to get our food for the day. If he didnt we more than likely would not be eating. I cant tell you how many shifts that we have had breakfast at 1 or 2 pm and dinner at 8-9 pm, because of calls and training. Remember we start our shift at 7 am. We usually get to work at 6-615 am, thats the norm.

I dont know where you got the 2 days off every other day schedule at, but that would be nice.

Anyway, I think I have made my point, if you think that you chose the wrong career path, it is never too late to apply for the fire dept. We are always looking for highly motivated, skilled, educated, men and women who want to serve this community to the best of their ability. You wont be the 1st educated person nor the last one we hire. Think about it. 297-FIRE

I think I need to share some of the "Chill Pills" I took during the MAPS3 campaign.

Is the Opposition to the Fire Department/Firefighters/Union correct on all matters--NO
Is the City/Mayor/Council correct on all matters--NO

Can anyone say truce or group hug!!!!

Pennyquilts, if it helps you, read my posts and hear Elmer Fudd in your head. I'm not yelling or being caustic.

Junkie, to the best of my memory it was for 420 west Main only. When I get a chance I will see if can find the story archived somewhere. Now you weren't really calling me a liar were you?

Pennyquilts, if it helps you, read my posts and hear Elmer Fudd in your head. I'm not yelling or being caustic.


I believe you, sweetie. But a lot of folks aren't going to go to the trouble - it is perception, as you know. God knows, I am probably the last person to lecture - I come across pretty strong, myself, and I am a sweetheart in person.

Just reading all these union guys talk about how none of the media gives them a fair shake, how the City doesn't treat them right (their AVERAGE salary is $75K!!) is unintentionally hilarious. The unions are their own worst enemy. I can't imagine anyone reads this stuff and feels sympathetic.How did you arrive at the 75K avg. salary? Can you point us to the documents that you used for your calculation? What info. can you provide that will back-up your claim? I'm just curious.

I think I need to share some of the "Chill Pills" I took during the MAPS3 campaign.

Is the Opposition to the Fire Department/Firefighters/Union correct on all matters--NO
Is the City/Mayor/Council correct on all matters--NO

Can anyone say truce or group hug!!!!


I think I will have a few chill pills if you are sharing them. lol

Sorry for the rant, I just get frustrated with some of the postings thats all.

Hope everyone is having a great evening....

I think I will have a few chill pills if you are sharing them. lol

Sorry for the rant, I just get frustrated with some of the postings thats all.

Hope everyone is having a great evening....

I know what you mean, I've been known to do that myself, just ask mikemarsh and wambo!!!
Everyone have a Great Weekend, stay warm, stay dry and be safe!!

Okay, I'm done on this entire subject. I don't know how it spills over into every single thread, but it does. I don't even know what thread I'm reading anymore. Is this about MAPS 3? Steve Hunt? The Thunder? I don't know. I just see "Fire Department Fire Department Fire Department" over and over again.

So this is it. I don't care about the fire department.

I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about your labor negotiations. I don't care if someone 10 years ago cut the number of red fire engines you use. I don't care if they aren't going to hire more people to help. I don't care at all.

Do you benefit from having a union? I'm sure you do. Otherwise you wouldn't join one. But I don't care. I don't care how you run your union, or how much your dues are. I don't care if you aren't happy with how the city is negotiating your new contracts. If they're doing something illegal, fight them. Don't tell me about it.

Want a raise? Want the city to hire more firemen? I don't care. You have lost the public opinion battle, at least on this forum, because no one cares anymore. If you're getting a great salary, and you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and blah blah blah you deserve it, then fine. But don't expect any of us to feel sorry for you.

There are lots of people out there with important jobs. Not all of us fight fires. Everyone is hurting in a struggling economy. So you're not happy with how much money is allocated to your department? Get in line. It starts here and goes around the block 16 times. You're behind mailmen, garbagemen, guys from the Department of Environmental Quality, sewer workers, district attorneys, public defenders, policemen, health inspectors, professors, DHS workers, teachers, and a million other professions. We've got 300 million people in the United States, and every single one of them is trying to make ends meet in a recession. Why should the Oklahoma City Fire Department have a special exemption when no one else on the planet does? Do you guys maintain the mystic seal that keeps Lord Cthulhu from rising from the deep and ending the world? No? Then tough titty. Times are hard. Deal with it.

You have every right to fight for the best deal you can. If you're worth more money, then go to it. Great. Negotiate as hard as you can and get the best deal you can. This is America. That's your right. But don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you when you've got a blue collar job that doesn't require a college degree, and you're earning more than twice the average salary of the people who live in this city. It reminds me of the baseball lockout, when millionaires went on strike because they weren't paid enough money to play baseball all day. Do they have a right to get as much money as possible? Of course. Do I have to feel sorry for them? Hell no.

You guys have this idea that we should hold you up as "real American heroes" because your job has an element of danger. You know what? Working at 7/11 is more dangerous than being a fireman. Serving in the military is more dangerous. Being a construction worker is dangerous. Being a Sea World trainer is dangerous. You guys are very well compensated for your job. It's what you chose to do. Don't like it? Quit. You have great PR and get excellent pay and benefits. Every little boy wants to be a fireman, and you get nothing but praise from every elected official. So don't whine and don't get holier than thou on us. "Woe is me, everyone loves me and I make a $***load of cash."

It's annoying.

--

Sorry for the rant. I'm gonna leave it up, though, because I think it's how a lot of us feel. No one hates firemen. Everyone wants to have the best Fire Department possible. We like being safe from fires. But the last few months, this board has been flooded with FD guys who do nothing but bitch about contract negotiations. My dad is a Teamster, so I have nothing against unions. But we don't come to OKCTalk to see every thread become "Fire Department vs City Government part 14."

Oh HoyaSooner... you made me laugh. Sometimes we all reach that point!

Okay, I'm done on this entire subject. I don't know how it spills over into every single thread, but it does. I don't even know what thread I'm reading anymore. Is this about MAPS 3? Steve Hunt? The Thunder? I don't know. I just see "Fire Department Fire Department Fire Department" over and over again.

So this is it. I don't care about the fire department.

I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about your labor negotiations. I don't care if someone 10 years ago cut the number of red fire engines you use. I don't care if they aren't going to hire more people to help. I don't care at all.

Do you benefit from having a union? I'm sure you do. Otherwise you wouldn't join one. But I don't care. I don't care how you run your union, or how much your dues are. I don't care if you aren't happy with how the city is negotiating your new contracts. If they're doing something illegal, fight them. Don't tell me about it.

Want a raise? Want the city to hire more firemen? I don't care. You have lost the public opinion battle, at least on this forum, because no one cares anymore. If you're getting a great salary, and you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and blah blah blah you deserve it, then fine. But don't expect any of us to feel sorry for you.

There are lots of people out there with important jobs. Not all of us fight fires. Everyone is hurting in a struggling economy. So you're not happy with how much money is allocated to your department? Get in line. It starts here and goes around the block 16 times. You're behind mailmen, garbagemen, guys from the Department of Environmental Quality, sewer workers, district attorneys, public defenders, policemen, health inspectors, professors, DHS workers, teachers, and a million other professions. We've got 300 million people in the United States, and every single one of them is trying to make ends meet in a recession. Why should the Oklahoma City Fire Department have a special exemption when no one else on the planet does? Do you guys maintain the mystic seal that keeps Lord Cthulhu from rising from the deep and ending the world? No? Then tough titty. Times are hard. Deal with it.

You have every right to fight for the best deal you can. If you're worth more money, then go to it. Great. Negotiate as hard as you can and get the best deal you can. This is America. That's your right. But don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you when you've got a blue collar job that doesn't require a college degree, and you're earning more than twice the average salary of the people who live in this city. It reminds me of the baseball lockout, when millionaires went on strike because they weren't paid enough money to play baseball all day. Do they have a right to get as much money as possible? Of course. Do I have to feel sorry for them? Hell no.

You guys have this idea that we should hold you up as "real American heroes" because your job has an element of danger. You know what? Working at 7/11 is more dangerous than being a fireman. Serving in the military is more dangerous. Being a construction worker is dangerous. Being a Sea World trainer is dangerous. You guys are very well compensated for your job. It's what you chose to do. Don't like it? Quit. You have great PR and get excellent pay and benefits. Every little boy wants to be a fireman, and you get nothing but praise from every elected official. So don't whine and don't get holier than thou on us. "Woe is me, everyone loves me and I make a $***load of cash."

It's annoying.

--

Sorry for the rant. I'm gonna leave it up, though, because I think it's how a lot of us feel. No one hates firemen. Everyone wants to have the best Fire Department possible. We like being safe from fires. But the last few months, this board has been flooded with FD guys who do nothing but bitch about contract negotiations. My dad is a Teamster, so I have nothing against unions. But we don't come to OKCTalk to see every thread become "Fire Department vs City Government part 14."

I am sorry that you are having a bad day. I hope that you feel better getting all of that off of your conscious. That was a lot of bottled up hostility towards the fire dept.

RCjunkie is handing out chill pills and I got one yesterday. Shall I get one for you also. They make you feel so much better.

Its a shame that you dont care about the fire dept.
I cant believe that you would say all of the hurtful things about us.
Its obvious that you have never needed our assistance, but you may need it one day. Hopefully not.

You personally may not care about anything that we do and any of our issues. But, believe it or not you are not the only person posting info or opinions on this site. They are many educated people on this site who have asked excellent questions, some had no idea what all services the fire dept provides. I dont expect you to change your tune, you seem quite content in posting the I dont care attitude and thats fine. There have been many misconceptions about the fire dept which I am attempting to clear up, one post at a time. Thanks for your support.

For now, just some friendly advice, if there is a thread title with fire in it, just stay away from it. I dont want you to get all upset.
Hope that you have a better day.

:congrats::congrats::congrats:
Okay, I'm done on this entire subject. I don't know how it spills over into every single thread, but it does. I don't even know what thread I'm reading anymore. Is this about MAPS 3? Steve Hunt? The Thunder? I don't know. I just see "Fire Department Fire Department Fire Department" over and over again.

So this is it. I don't care about the fire department.

I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about your labor negotiations. I don't care if someone 10 years ago cut the number of red fire engines you use. I don't care if they aren't going to hire more people to help. I don't care at all.

Do you benefit from having a union? I'm sure you do. Otherwise you wouldn't join one. But I don't care. I don't care how you run your union, or how much your dues are. I don't care if you aren't happy with how the city is negotiating your new contracts. If they're doing something illegal, fight them. Don't tell me about it.

Want a raise? Want the city to hire more firemen? I don't care. You have lost the public opinion battle, at least on this forum, because no one cares anymore. If you're getting a great salary, and you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and blah blah blah you deserve it, then fine. But don't expect any of us to feel sorry for you.

There are lots of people out there with important jobs. Not all of us fight fires. Everyone is hurting in a struggling economy. So you're not happy with how much money is allocated to your department? Get in line. It starts here and goes around the block 16 times. You're behind mailmen, garbagemen, guys from the Department of Environmental Quality, sewer workers, district attorneys, public defenders, policemen, health inspectors, professors, DHS workers, teachers, and a million other professions. We've got 300 million people in the United States, and every single one of them is trying to make ends meet in a recession. Why should the Oklahoma City Fire Department have a special exemption when no one else on the planet does? Do you guys maintain the mystic seal that keeps Lord Cthulhu from rising from the deep and ending the world? No? Then tough titty. Times are hard. Deal with it.

You have every right to fight for the best deal you can. If you're worth more money, then go to it. Great. Negotiate as hard as you can and get the best deal you can. This is America. That's your right. But don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you when you've got a blue collar job that doesn't require a college degree, and you're earning more than twice the average salary of the people who live in this city. It reminds me of the baseball lockout, when millionaires went on strike because they weren't paid enough money to play baseball all day. Do they have a right to get as much money as possible? Of course. Do I have to feel sorry for them? Hell no.

You guys have this idea that we should hold you up as "real American heroes" because your job has an element of danger. You know what? Working at 7/11 is more dangerous than being a fireman. Serving in the military is more dangerous. Being a construction worker is dangerous. Being a Sea World trainer is dangerous. You guys are very well compensated for your job. It's what you chose to do. Don't like it? Quit. You have great PR and get excellent pay and benefits. Every little boy wants to be a fireman, and you get nothing but praise from every elected official. So don't whine and don't get holier than thou on us. "Woe is me, everyone loves me and I make a $***load of cash."

It's annoying.

--

Sorry for the rant. I'm gonna leave it up, though, because I think it's how a lot of us feel. No one hates firemen. Everyone wants to have the best Fire Department possible. We like being safe from fires. But the last few months, this board has been flooded with FD guys who do nothing but bitch about contract negotiations. My dad is a Teamster, so I have nothing against unions. But we don't come to OKCTalk to see every thread become "Fire Department vs City Government part 14."

If you don't like this thread, post your own. It does say "fire department" in the thread. So, I am making an educated guess. It will deal with the fire department. DUH! :LolLolLol

This will probably piss you off again. Is it true that the City rejected the Union's offer to rollover the contract with no raises? I heard this happened a few days ago.

.oO(1 whaleofarant, iffin it warn't in a fire dept specific thread)Oo.
:tiphat:

Hoya is just expressing the kind of public opinion I was talking about. IMHO, the firefighters have become their own worst enemy in a PR sense. People are tired of the "oh poor me" everyone is out to get me argument. There comes a point when, as Shakespear speaketh - "me thinkest thou dost protest too much."

Hoyasooner, sounds like one of them cops wrote you a ticket! You know it's really simple! DO NOT click on this thread!

Chayes, you are correct. As of the 24th the city rejected that and now they are refusing to cover increased insurance costs that they already agreed to. $200.00 per person. They will not agree to anything unless we remove the reference to them bargaining in bad faith as determined by the arbitraitor.

.oO(1 whaleofarant, iffin it warn't in a fire dept specific thread)Oo.
:tiphat:

Exactly.

Here's an idea hoyasooner, there are 28 sections or sub-sections on the opening page of this forum. In the metro section alone you can open threads about street lights that generate their own electricity. Or there's the pedestrian bridge or the boulevard or Will Rogers airport or I-40 construction or a new yoga studio or the mayors conference or even the possibility of a new tax for the county jail. That's just some of what's available. There's only two threads on the opening metro page that deal with the FD. One of those hasn't been posted in for three days.

I don't see why your having trouble avoiding reading something that will so ruin your day. Surely as an educated person you can avoid the threads that you don't have any concern for. In the future please do that.

Casey, since you decided to weigh in, maybe you can update us on the mayors progress in keeping his promise to hire more public safety employees.

You guys do beat the dead horse a tad much.
Its contract negotion time, budgets are tight, money is deflating.
a lot of people are unemployed, so dont expect a lot of sympthy cause the city isnt operating in good faith.

Rover, say whatever you feel, I have an idea that there are many like minded people who don't much care for the way the city runs over people. Ask Mr. Cusack how he feels about the way they are treating the land owners in the core to shore area. Me thinks you don't protest unless it affects you.

You guys do beat the dead horse a tad much.
Its contract negotion time, budgets are tight, money is deflating.
a lot of people are unemployed, so dont expect a lot of sympthy cause the city isnt operating in good faith.So it's OK for the City to act in bad faith based upon a downturn in the economy? Are you saying that if you had and/or did business with the City in one form or another, and were being dealt with in bad faith, you wouldn't mind?

Okay, I'm done on this entire subject. I don't know how it spills over into every single thread, but it does. I don't even know what thread I'm reading anymore. Is this about MAPS 3? Steve Hunt? The Thunder? I don't know. I just see "Fire Department Fire Department Fire Department" over and over again.

So this is it. I don't care about the fire department.

I don't care about how much money you make. I don't care about your labor negotiations. I don't care if someone 10 years ago cut the number of red fire engines you use. I don't care if they aren't going to hire more people to help. I don't care at all.

Do you benefit from having a union? I'm sure you do. Otherwise you wouldn't join one. But I don't care. I don't care how you run your union, or how much your dues are. I don't care if you aren't happy with how the city is negotiating your new contracts. If they're doing something illegal, fight them. Don't tell me about it.

Want a raise? Want the city to hire more firemen? I don't care. You have lost the public opinion battle, at least on this forum, because no one cares anymore. If you're getting a great salary, and you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, and blah blah blah you deserve it, then fine. But don't expect any of us to feel sorry for you.

There are lots of people out there with important jobs. Not all of us fight fires. Everyone is hurting in a struggling economy. So you're not happy with how much money is allocated to your department? Get in line. It starts here and goes around the block 16 times. You're behind mailmen, garbagemen, guys from the Department of Environmental Quality, sewer workers, district attorneys, public defenders, policemen, health inspectors, professors, DHS workers, teachers, and a million other professions. We've got 300 million people in the United States, and every single one of them is trying to make ends meet in a recession. Why should the Oklahoma City Fire Department have a special exemption when no one else on the planet does? Do you guys maintain the mystic seal that keeps Lord Cthulhu from rising from the deep and ending the world? No? Then tough titty. Times are hard. Deal with it.

You have every right to fight for the best deal you can. If you're worth more money, then go to it. Great. Negotiate as hard as you can and get the best deal you can. This is America. That's your right. But don't expect anybody to feel sorry for you when you've got a blue collar job that doesn't require a college degree, and you're earning more than twice the average salary of the people who live in this city. It reminds me of the baseball lockout, when millionaires went on strike because they weren't paid enough money to play baseball all day. Do they have a right to get as much money as possible? Of course. Do I have to feel sorry for them? Hell no.

You guys have this idea that we should hold you up as "real American heroes" because your job has an element of danger. You know what? Working at 7/11 is more dangerous than being a fireman. Serving in the military is more dangerous. Being a construction worker is dangerous. Being a Sea World trainer is dangerous. You guys are very well compensated for your job. It's what you chose to do. Don't like it? Quit. You have great PR and get excellent pay and benefits. Every little boy wants to be a fireman, and you get nothing but praise from every elected official. So don't whine and don't get holier than thou on us. "Woe is me, everyone loves me and I make a $***load of cash."

It's annoying.

--

Sorry for the rant. I'm gonna leave it up, though, because I think it's how a lot of us feel. No one hates firemen. Everyone wants to have the best Fire Department possible. We like being safe from fires. But the last few months, this board has been flooded with FD guys who do nothing but bitch about contract negotiations. My dad is a Teamster, so I have nothing against unions. But we don't come to OKCTalk to see every thread become "Fire Department vs City Government part 14."

As an attorney, if you feel as though your opposing counsel has acted in bad faith, or has used unethecal tactics to prevail in the case, do you have a place you can go to air your complaints? How about homeowners who have been ripped-off by dishonest contractors, where do they go to complain? People who have been treated by an incompetent doctor for medical reasons, who do they bitch to?

So who should City workers voice safety concerns to? The Public you think? Maybe via a public forum? Nobody from the Fire service posting on this forum has said they're not paid enough. This is about paying an extra 3/4 of a cent in taxes for equipment, fire trucks, and the additional manpower to operate them. I don't recall any of the Firefighters asking you to worship them from atop their pedestols. Sorry of the fact you no longer care about the F.D., although I truthfully couldn't care less.

So it's OK for the City to act in bad faith based upon a downturn in the economy? Are you saying that if you had and/or did business with the City in one form or another, and were being dealt with in bad faith, you wouldn't mind?

Bad faith or reality? Should the city borrow money to act in good faith if we don't have enough in the budget? If other departments are facing cuts, is the city acting in bad faith with them too? Should we borrow money to keep things the way they are, or raise taxes? All food for thought.

Andy, here's why I suspect the firefighter and police unions are failing to get any traction in all this: they're talking to people in the private sector who, by and large, have been battered with cuts in benefits, wage freezes and more and more work piled on fewer staff due to the economy. Add to that the anti-MAPS 3 activity and the folks on this board who were pro-MAPS 3 are likely to be very unsympathetic toward the unions even if it involves not just freezing raises but also cutting staffing and/or increasing work loads.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong. But after having been a member on this board for the past few years, I think I've got a pretty good idea of the pulse of this site (Andy, to be fair, you've been a member for a while too and I know you've been active in discussions otther than this). It seems the more that those posters associated with the unions try to press their cause here at OKC Talk, the more hostility they draw.
I may be one of the only neutral posters on this site to personally know many police, firefighters and the folks in the administration.
And my only bias is this: I know a lot of honest, hard-working people on both sides of this fight. I'm not sure how all this will end up, but I really do hope that at the end of the day we can remember most folks in this fight aren't bad people - they just have different perspectives. It's looking more and more likely the residents of Oklahoma City will be asked to decide which perspective is best in May.

Betts, rules are rules and they are in place for a reason. When the city violated the rules, they were exposed and ruled against. The city did not try this tactic with other city departments. We understand there is only a certain amount of money. The city can only operate within it's budget. You have NEVER and I will repeat it, NEVER heard any of us demand, let alone ask for a raise. What this is about is the city council and bargaining team trying to pull a fast one on a group of employees. They got caught and now are trying to get rid of the ruling against them. They are refusing to accept any agreement unless we remove any reference to their wrongdoing. That's honest government for you.

Steve, I have been told several times that Maps3 is over and I need to move on. Are you saying as a whole the voters of OKC are going to punish the Fire Dept? You bring up the election in May. You are forgetting that the "Last Best Offer" from the city was thrown out.
The vote is going to be between the Union's LBO and the Cities LBO. With the city not having an LBO due to it being ruled ineligible. Being that they changed wording in the contract and that is considered an"unfair labor practice". What are the citizens going to vote on? Nothing! The city violated the process and now are going to court to try to have their illegal offer added to the ballot. Once again, that is some honest city government.

Mike, what I'm saying is that people I've talked to are upset at the police and fire unions, and yes, that plays into their feelings if there is a vote in May. Not sure if that's easy for anyone to "get over" MAPS 3 when the use tax matter is still up in the air.
I'm not even going to begin to understand the complexities of the negotiations and the issues that might come up in a public vote. But any veteran political observer will quickly note it's not always the issues, but the perception, that matters most in winning at the ballot box.
Those who know me personally, and I think Andy is among them, know that I'm pretty neutral on this one and in the past I've prided myself in irritating both sides at one time or another. All I'm trying to point out is that there are good people on both sides of this fight.

To add a little to what Steve said about perceptions, many people, mostly non-union types don't see the firefighters or police OKC local chapters as stand alone entities but lumped into the same "union mentality" that they see from the nationals like the UAW, AFL-CIO, etc., so the same taint that some see on them they see on all unions. Most people don't make decisions on the "reality" of situation/cause but their perception of the situation/cause. The antics of the UAW in the GM and Chrysler situations and the UAW/AFL-CIO in health care discussions have further lowered the opinion of most non-union people, which I believe constitutes a majority in the state.

Fair or not you aren't just fighting the perception of how your local does business but also the entire union mentality as it is perceived by the non-union voters.

Bad faith or reality? Should the city borrow money to act in good faith if we don't have enough in the budget? If other departments are facing cuts, is the city acting in bad faith with them too? Should we borrow money to keep things the way they are, or raise taxes? All food for thought.

betts, the reality here is that the City acted in bad faith almost a year ago, long before these budget issues had surfaced. Now, months and months later, and because the City has refused to comply, their stalling and stonewalling will allow them through public perception to prevail and be rewarded for acting in bad faith by using the economy as their cover.

Other departments are taking cuts that is a fact. However, the P&F departments have made cuts as well. I will admit those cuts have been smaller and less noticable, which is easy to understand due to the fact that the P&F departments have a separate revenue stream others don't.

My issue comes from the fact that the City is collecting an additional 3/4 of a cent in sales tax under the guise of providing a certain level of P&F services and protection. My question is this. Should the City be able to continue collecting the tax while failing to provide the level of service for which it was intended?

As much as I hate to use the word MAPS, what if. What if 6 years from now, after all of the MAPS3 projects had been completed as promised with the exception of 1, lets say the senior centers for example. If the City were to come out 6 years from now and tell us they would contiue collecting the tax, yet they had decided not to provide the centers which the tax called for, would that be ok?

I'm not even going to begin to understand the complexities of the negotiations and the issues that might come up in a public vote. But any veteran political observer will quickly note it's not always the issues, but the perception, that matters most in winning at the ballot box.
Those who know me personally, and I think Andy is among them, know that I'm pretty neutral on this one and in the past I've prided myself in irritating both sides at one time or another. All I'm trying to point out is that there are good people on both sides of this fight.

Steve, I agree that the public perception of the parties involved, rather than the issues themselves, often determine election results. Where do those perceptions come from though? All too often they are generated in the media, who it seems has chosen sides on the issue. While the city has clearly broken the rules pertaining to collective bargaining in this case, you would never know it by the media coverage. The people get their perceptions from what they see and read in the media. While you might be right that there are good people on both sides, until the media does a better job of covering BOTH sides of an issue, we'll continue to suffer in the public perception realm.

The story in yesterdays paper was the closest thing to nuetral they've printed regarding the FFs in a long time. Still at that, they let the city hide behind phrases like "it's complicated" as to why, when given exactly what they've been asking for, they still chose to turn it down. Choosing instead to continue a court battle that is costing the city money. Not too smart for a cash strapped city.

I'd love to say the newspaper is king of all media and nothing exists outside of it. But that would be naive - and there's a lot to be said about how arguments are presented through new media. I'd be curious as to whether a capable public relations firm would say the unions have used new media to their advantage or disadvantage.

You said that elections are often more about peoples perceptions than the issues at hand. I asked you where do you think the majority of OKC residents get their perception of the FFs. Do you honestly think this forum reaches anywhere near the number of people that the DOK and televised media do?

As far as whether it's been used to our advantage or not, if presenting the facts, that they won't hear anywhere in the mainstream media, so angers some of these people then so be it. At least they can't say "we had no idea".

Some of us still think that as long as you tell the truth, that should be good enough. PR firms are, for the most part, needed when trying to convince the populace of something they wouldn't normally buy. Maybe we're wrong. I hope not.

One thing's for sure, when the media only chooses to cover one side of the story it doesn't matter what the truth is.

Wambo, truth be told, I'm just another news consumer on this one. I'm not covering this story, just following it like everyone else (I do, however, have some friends in the police and fire departments who have shared their views with me).
I'm not convinced the coverage I've read is all that bad or slanted - but clearly they're telling the story as you would like to see it told.
That happens.
But you are dead wrong about the role public relations firms play in communicating messages. Communication is an art, and quite frankly, if what you're saying is all true, the blame rests on the unions for not effectively communicating. You're basically making the case for why a public relations firm might be needed. I say this with the caveat that there are some folks in PR I can't stand, and yet I respect their profession and why they're needed.
I'm not a "yes" guy. I try to report what I see and hear, and I'm not really concerned with whether people are going to love me afterwards. So here it is Wambo, whether you like it or not. Regardless of who is right or wrong in this labor/management battle, my only observation is that the unions haven't been too sharp in communicating with the public and they are losing the perception game.
Before you wish to dismiss the power of new media, try getting a seat at Big Truck Tacos tomorrow at lunch time. Or at the Iguana Mexican Grill on Tuesday nights. Or look at how many business owners have joined OKC Talk AFTER they saw the impact of negative online reviews. Have no doubt, there is power in new media. I don't always agree with the how's and why's of it all, but I respect it. And anyone dealing with a political debate who ignores the power of new media does so at their own peril.

Steve, I'm not talking about you personally. As you said before, you're happiest when you've got both sides a little peeved. That is how it should be.

If, as you say, the blame lies with the unions for poor message delivery, does no blame lie with those who edit and present the message after the interviews? I'll give you that we aren't all that PR savvy. We shouldn't have to be when dealing with an unbiased media. The facts should speak for themselves and peoples perceptions should be formed by the facts, not some PR firms spin of the facts or some editors spin of the facts. This maybe a little simplistic view the way things should be, but like I said, some of us think being truthful should be enough.

Ah but here's the rub: you think you've got the facts. And then management will insist they have the facts. One important moment in my education in college was an assignment to watch the 1950 Japanese film "Roshomon." Seriously. Yes, it was subtitled. But it taught me and fellow students that there can be several accounts of a story by people who all think they are presenting the true account of an incident. As journalists we're trained to try to navigate through that, tell both sides, and try to present the most balanced account possible. Do we always succeed? Of course not. But we should, and I think most do, try.
The problem here is you're not realizing that nuance. And that's ok - but it shows that if the folks in charge at the unions have the same perception as you, yeah, they need a pr expert. This does not reflect badly on you or anybody else. I'm in the communications business. I don't have a clue as to how I might put out a fire or save a life.
Best regards.
- Steve

One important moment in my education in college was an assignment to watch the 1950 Japanese film "Roshomon." Seriously. Yes, it was subtitled. But it taught me and fellow students that there can be several accounts of a story by people who all think they are presenting the true account of an incident. As journalists we're trained to try to navigate through that, tell both sides, and try to present the most balanced account possible.
In case others are interested in catching this, the OKCMoA will be showing "Rashomon" on Thursday, April 1 at 7:30pm as part of their "Kurosawa Centennial Celebration".

Steve, I wanted to wait until after yesterdays council meeting to respond due to the fact that they were voting on the FFs second offer to settle last years negotiations without the raise. As you may or may not know they turned down the first one because it had language in it about the MAPS3 use tax. You know, contract language, that nasty binding stuff that makes them keep their promises. So after being told that the use tax language was the reason they turned it down, the FFs submitted a new offer, that eliminated that language, to be considered at yesterdays meeting. The council turned that down also.

Now we've been hearing forever that the raise was the problem. The raise was removed, problem solved. Then it was the use tax language that was the problem. That language was removed and still they chose to turn it down. Instead they want to continue with a long drawn out court battle that is costing the city money.

The reason? We have no idea, and as long as the reporters covering city hall settle for "it's complicated" as a complete answer, neither will the general public.


Ah but here's the rub: you think you've got the facts. And then management will insist they have the facts.
I would agree with this if the facts were in question. In this case they aren't. The city isn't trying to say that they didn't break the rules of collective bargaining. They are asking for it to be overlooked so they can change contract language without negotiations. The city knows this. The FFs know this. Probably the only people who don't know this are the general public, but then again they are dependant upon the news media to cover it and ask the questions. They certainly were made aware that the FFs were awarded a raise in arbitration. There was no problem getting that covered, nor should there have been. It was news.


As journalists we're trained to try to navigate through that, tell both sides, and try to present the most balanced account possible. Do we always succeed? Of course not. But we should, and I think most do, try.
I have to say, as someone who knows the FFs side of these issues and sees them consistently left out of the story, someone is missing the mark.



The problem here is you're not realizing that nuance. And that's ok - but it shows that if the folks in charge at the unions have the same perception as you, yeah, they need a pr expert. This does not reflect badly on you or anybody else. I'm in the communications business.
On this we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think it should be necessary to hire a PR expert to get a fair shake in the news media. If in fact that is the case, it's kind of sad IMO.

Thanks for the back and forth, and for doing it in a respectful way.

No problem Wambo. For what it's worth, Bryan Dean is tasked with covering this issue and you can contact him with questions/concerns at 475-3206.

The ironic thing about this whole ordeal is our union leadership and many of the guys involved in the day to day operations down there now, are probably the most rational, level headed, intelligent group working down there since I became a firefighter twenty years ago.
To have these guys painted as lying, blind, union goons is really laughable.

The ironic thing about this whole ordeal is our union leadership and many of the guys involved in the day to day operations down there now, are probably the most rational, level headed, intelligent group working down there since I became a firefighter twenty years ago.
To have these guys painted as lying, blind, union goons is really laughable.

The problem is, like the same discussion in an NBA thread, a question of money. I'd like to say that if money were limitless, we could make everyone happy, but then we'd simply have runaway inflation, no doubt. It's not that anyone begrudges policemen and firemen anything.

But, if there's a finite amount of money, then you have two choices: you can either hire more people for less or less people for more. The problem with the intelligent, rational union leaders is that their goal is to get the city to hire more people for more money. I don't blame them, but that's what everyone wants, and we've discovered it doesn't work in this economy.

Tell your story to the doctors, who are being threatened with a 21% cut in Medicare, when the government requires you to accept whatever Medicare pays you if you want to be quaranteed you'll get paid. They've been getting 1 to 2% increases in a good year, and have watched their real income fall dramatically over the last 20 years.

Betts, please go up and read the first 3 paragraphs of my last post. This isn't about money. It hasn't been for awhile now. We knew when the arbitrator ruled in our favor that the city, more likely than not, could make the argument they couldn't afford to pay it. They were the ones claiming we were a "recession proof" city. We knew better.

This is about their willful and deliberate act to backdoor the negotiations process that we both are bound to. Now we're in court because they want a judge to overlook the fact that they broke the rules and allow them to proceed with changing our contract without negotiating. Like I said, we keep giving in to their demands, and they keep moving the target. They've chosen a prolonged court battle, which is costing them money, instead of settling on a contract which won't.

fire121 is right about our leadership, although I would add that, for the most part, we've had pretty good leaders. But you will never know that if all you get is what the local news tells you.

Betts, the title of this thread is related to the Fire dept. situation. Feel free to start one about government reimbursement cuts. What we are talking about is no one complaining that the city is spending an additional $90,000.00 when the fire union is doing what has been asked and more. Sundays article in the DOK stated that the city has a problem with some of the language in the arbitraitors ruling. It was stated that the city could not abide some of the language. We were told it was the part that found them guilty of "unfair labor practices". They want any reference to their wrongdoing removed or they will not agree to a deal. Now Betts, let me ask you, how is that ethical, let alone honest?

I hope this thread isn't aiding and abeting the negotiators on the respective sides...

I hope this thread isn't aiding and abeting the negotiators on the respective sides...

Bah.

If they take a little semi-informed banter on a message board seriously, they have much bigger problems.

Bah.

If they take a little semi-informed banter on a message board seriously, they have much bigger problems.

It's a question of having a finger on the pulse. It won't make the difference, generally, but laying all the infighting out for all to see is just a little bit more information they have when they decide to make or reject an offer. I sure wouldn't want my client to be putting all this out there if we were in the middle of negotiations. Might not make a difference, probably wouldn't but... I'm just saying.

PQ, I have to agree with Mid, anything you read here has already been seen and rejected, not just by the negotiators but by the council themselves. It's been discussed in televised council meetings and should have been reported in the news. Actually they rejected the last offer without public discussion due to their desire to fly under the radar about the court case. If they can continue on this path without having to answer any questions, so much the better for them. As to what is being negotiated at this moment, no one posting on this board is in a position to know. We don't hear it until it's already been rejected or accepted by the city. What your reading is old news to both parties involved.

See, I may not know much about fighting fires, but I do know about court cases. Rarely do you get the whole story when you only speak to one party involved. I don't get the whole story from most of my clients, anyway. We have the fire department here giving one side, but nobody from the city is here giving the other. I think all rational people here are taking this into account. It's not that we don't believe you, but we're getting information third hand from a source involved in the dispute. That's not exactly unbiased.

As far as I know, none of the firefighters here were personally involved in the negotiations. So you're getting your information from union leaders, and they're relaying their position. So when a union leader says "the city is doing something illegal", that's obviously what they believe, but that doesn't mean a judge is going to agree. I tell my clients all the time that one thing or another is legal or illegal, that doesn't mean we're going to win on that issue. So that's why there's such pervasive skepticism here.

See, I may not know much about fighting fires, but I do know about court cases. Rarely do you get the whole story when you only speak to one party involved. I don't get the whole story from most of my clients, anyway. We have the fire department here giving one side, but nobody from the city is here giving the other. I think all rational people here are taking this into account. It's not that we don't believe you, but we're getting information third hand from a source involved in the dispute. That's not exactly unbiased.

As far as I know, none of the firefighters here were personally involved in the negotiations. So you're getting your information from union leaders, and they're relaying their position. So when a union leader says "the city is doing something illegal", that's obviously what they believe, but that doesn't mean a judge is going to agree. I tell my clients all the time that one thing or another is legal or illegal, that doesn't mean we're going to win on that issue. So that's why there's such pervasive skepticism here.


I would say that almost all of the time that your information stated in the above post would be correct.

We are attempting to get the other side of the story out to the public.
All that you have to do is read the DOK, they have the city skewed side in there. In their words, its very complicated. lol

Its very simple, we agreed to not take the raise that was awarded to us by an arbitrator, that was turned down by the city. Then, we agreed to rollover last years contract, that was turned down by the city council last Tuesday.

What else do they want?
I will tell you what they want.

The city wants us to agree to throw out the arbitrators ruling that they were acting in bad faith during negotiations. Therefore, negating the Police and Fire Arbitration Act. That is not going to happen.

There are some of the FF on this thread that are not far removed from the negotiations. Their information is very accurate.

Its not only the fire dept union leaders that say the city has "bargained in bad faith" and attempted to change the language of their Last Best Offer after the time has passed to do so, it was also found to be the case by a neutral arbitrator during the arbitration process.

So when you go to arbitration there are certain rules that you have to follow in that process. The city presents its last best offer and tries to substantiate it. The fire dept does the same thing. The arbitrator can only pick one of the last best offers. He/she cannot pick bits and pieces from each LBO and formulate his/her own. Its either the city or the fire dept LBO. No shades of grey in between. The city had submitted their LBO and then attempted to change it after the fact. They were caught on that and their LBO was ruled to be illegal by a neutral arbitrator. Not my words or the unions words, but the arbitrators wording. This is a violation of the Police and Fire Arbitration Act.

This is the same Act that prohibits the Police and Fire from ever instituting a walkout or a work strike. So, you can see that this Act is very important for the citizens as well all parties involved.

We (the fire dept) are bound by the arbitrators ruling. The city is not.
The city is taking the fire dept to district court to try to get that arbitrators ruling overturned. So, in essence the city is trying to get a district court judge to say its ok to bargain in bad faith as well as change your LBO after the allotted time frame.

When the city gets beat in district court, they are going to keep appealing this ruling all the way to the SC.

The rules are really simple to follow, so I suspect the city is going to continue to fight a losing battle all the way up to the SC, wasting lots and lots of taxpayer dollars in the process. Great Job.

PQ, I have to agree with Mid, anything you read here has already been seen and rejected, not just by the negotiators but by the council themselves. It's been discussed in televised council meetings and should have been reported in the news. Actually they rejected the last offer without public discussion due to their desire to fly under the radar about the court case. If they can continue on this path without having to answer any questions, so much the better for them. As to what is being negotiated at this moment, no one posting on this board is in a position to know. We don't hear it until it's already been rejected or accepted by the city. What your reading is old news to both parties involved.

Well, it is a judgement call. I tend to like to control the message a little better. But that is just me. Mind you, I am not saying anyone should be restricted from speaking - but it would make me nervous to find myself in the situation of not knowing what in blue blazes is going to come out of a member's mouth. But, again, that is just me.

I am getting most of my information from this site, and it seems to me that the tone here is one of angry victim from the ff side. I still contend that it may not be the content of the message I am hearing as much as the tone that pervades. I negotiate contracts for my company regularly and get involved in many contentious debates during the course. However, as soon as someone starts calling the other dishonest or negotiates from anger then the give and take ceases. I still contend that the ffs seem to be losing the PR battle. You can argue about whether that should be material or not, but trust me, it is. If the city believes it too and the public is more inclined to support their position then they will negotiate even harder. That's just the way it works.