I'm confused about the Oregon/Chicago discussion. I just read a Forbes article stating that Chicago has a 10.25% sales tax. That seems somewhat outrageous to me. Conversely, when I visited Portland I noticed they have zero, yes, zero, sales tax.

How could Chicago "poach" from a market that has lower overall taxation?

It is true Chicago has a sales tax rate over 10% (a fact the Oklahoman warned against after successfully getting the penny tax increase for the Ford). The 10% is something OKC will be dangerously close to if a County sales tax happens to fix the Jail problems. (conveniently not mentioned during the MAPS 3 vote). They did mention that OKC has one of the lowest sales tax rates in the Metro (#14) but if even a 1 cent tax gets added, OKC will be the 2nd highest rate in the Metro (with 6 or 7 communities that are also in Ok Co. tied for 1st place). I don't fault them completely for the omission since the jail is a County issue and not a City one. That aside, you may have answered your own question at the end, Ill. may have a lower OVERALL taxation. There are other taxes that businesses consider (usually on the State level with tax incentives) then there is income tax rates that would effect upper management specifically.

I'm confused about the Oregon/Chicago discussion. I just read a Forbes article stating that Chicago has a 10.25% sales tax. That seems somewhat outrageous to me. Conversely, when I visited Portland I noticed they have zero, yes, zero, sales tax.

How could Chicago "poach" from a market that has lower overall taxation?

To follow up on Larry's comments: Sales taxes are only a part of the tax issue. Actually, sales taxes are the best way to collect revenue. The situation in Oregon was that a majority of Oregonians selected a subset of their population and said YOU are going to pay for all of the States funding problems. That subset was the 3% considered 'Rich' and all businesses (usually it is the same 3% being taxed twice). This time the people be taxed are saying enough is enough, we'll go somewhere else.

Now, is Chicago a wise alternative? Probably not because not only does Chicago have the highest sales tax (+10%), they also have high taxes on everything else and even bigger city/state funding problems than Oregon. If they move to Chicago they will probably have to move again in a year for the exact same reason.

To follow up on Larry's comments: Sales taxes are only a part of the tax issue. Actually, sales taxes are the best way to collect revenue. The situation in Oregon was that a majority of Oregonians selected a subset of their population and said YOU are going to pay for all of the States funding problems. That subset was the 3% considered 'Rich' and all businesses (usually it is the same 3% being taxed twice). This time the people be taxed are saying enough is enough, we'll go somewhere else.

Now, is Chicago a wise alternative? Probably not because not only does Chicago have the highest sales tax (+10%), they also have high taxes on everything else and even bigger city/state funding problems than Oregon. If they move to Chicago they will probably have to move again in a year for the exact same reason.

Thanks for the reply. My guess is this is being blown out of proportion and the companies will probably just stay in Portland.

To follow up on Larry's comments: Sales taxes are only a part of the tax issue. Actually, sales taxes are the best way to collect revenue. The situation in Oregon was that a majority of Oregonians selected a subset of their population and said YOU are going to pay for all of the States funding problems. That subset was the 3% considered 'Rich' and all businesses (usually it is the same 3% being taxed twice). This time the people be taxed are saying enough is enough, we'll go somewhere else.

Now, is Chicago a wise alternative? Probably not because not only does Chicago have the highest sales tax (+10%), they also have high taxes on everything else and even bigger city/state funding problems than Oregon. If they move to Chicago they will probably have to move again in a year for the exact same reason.

Having lived in Chicago, taxes are not the only thing businesses consider, although for certain subsets of people it seems to be the only thing that matters.
Access to a highly educated, experienced workforce and quality of work/life choices are important. High quality available real estate, world class airport(s) are among the hundreds of things they consider along with costs.(of which taxes are a small to medium part of equation)

Having lived in Chicago, taxes are not the only thing businesses consider, although for certain subsets of people it seems to be the only thing that matters.
Access to a highly educated, experienced workforce and quality of work/life choices are important. High quality available real estate, world class airport(s) are among the hundreds of things they consider along with costs.(of which taxes are a small to medium part of equation)

Thank you for this.

In Oklahoma, the State Chamber and other groups have focused their lobbying almost exclusively on worker's comp and "lawsuit reform," right to work and other cost issues.

While I hope Oklahoma remains a competitive business cost environment, more needs to be done here on the quality of life and education issues to compete. Focusing on the income tax issue, for example, without addressing quality of life would be a huge mistake.

Having lived in Chicago, taxes are not the only thing businesses consider, although for certain subsets of people it seems to be the only thing that matters.
Access to a highly educated, experienced workforce and quality of work/life choices are important. High quality available real estate, world class airport(s) are among the hundreds of things they consider along with costs.(of which taxes are a small to medium part of equation)

I rest my case.

This is why Chicago has always been successful and is the #1 corporate business city in America and has been able to lure away companies (large and small) from cities you would never think people would move away from.

Also, Chicago has a HUGE economy of scale (and economy) and capital markets, which translates into business deals. Chicago is the engine that runs our country and I wouldn't be surprised if Nike and a few other Portland companies either moved their corporate hq or at least set up some offices in Chicago.

Is this "chicago way" something OKC can learn and DO!!?

Let's see what someone from Oregon thinks. This is from Phil Knight, CEO Nike, and is someone who has given over $250 million to the University of Oregon athletics program.

Nike chairman: Anti-business climate nurtures 66, 67 | The Stump - OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/01/nike_chairman_anti-business_cl.html)


By PHIL KNIGHT

Forty-six years ago, when Mark Hatfield was governor, I started a small business in Oregon. In our first year, sales totaled $8,000. I am proud that it eventually became a major employer in the state.

It has been my hope that other entrepreneurs would similarly pursue their dreams in Oregon.

They won't.

Measures 66 and 67 should be labeled Oregon's Assisted Suicide Law II.

They will allow us to watch a state slowly killing itself.

They are anti-business, anti-success, anti-inspirational, anti-humanitarian, and most ironically, in the long run, they will deprive the state of tax revenue, not increase it.

The current state tax codes are all of those things as well. Measures 66 and 67 just take it up and over the top.

The state of Washington has no income tax. Its unemployment rate is 20 percent lower than Oregon's -- before 66 and 67. These measures would give Oregon the highest income tax rates in the country.

Reputable economists forecast 66 and 67 will cost the state thousands -- maybe tens of thousands -- of jobs, and that thousands of our most successful residents will leave the state.

We are way too anti-business as we are now. The state in past years was headquarters for The First National Bank, US Bank, Pacific Power, Willamette Industries, Georgia-Pacific, Jantzen, White Stag, G.I. Joe's, Monaco Coach, Meier & Frank, among many others. They are now headquartered elsewhere, are controlled by non-Oregonians or no longer exist.

One Fortune Global 500 company remains. But its founder and chairman is not merely an economic man. He has webs between his toes. But he, too, has some limits.

Do you really think any of these overseas "business trips" our leaders take will bear fruit? Can they get a company to move to anti-business Oregon without waiving taxes, passing even more burden onto the rest of us?

There are words to describe what we are doing with 66 and 67: It is called a death spiral.

Phil Knight is co-founder and chairman of Nike Inc.

BTW - the one Fortune 500 company is Nike and the man with 'web between his toes' is Phil Knight - he is talking about himself and Nike.

Let's see what someone from Oregon thinks. This is from Phil Knight, CEO Nike, and is someone who has given over $250 million to the University of Oregon athletics program.

Nike chairman: Anti-business climate nurtures 66, 67 | The Stump - OregonLive.com (http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/01/nike_chairman_anti-business_cl.html)



BTW - the one Fortune 500 company is Nike and the man with 'web between his toes' is Phil Knight - he is talking about himself and Nike.

When Phil Knight and Nike move from Oregon then his actions will match his rhetoric. Using his logic Silicon Valley should be a vast waste land rather than home to plenty of dynamic companies that offer hundreds of thousands of high paying jobs.

Companies historically will move corporate or division headquarters (high paying jobs and contribution to communities) where there is available talent or where future employees who have choices would want to work. They also tend to put the lowest paying jobs where the cost is lowest because the workforce at that pay level is readily available and interchangable.

Where did Nike put most of thier production facilities and how did they treat employees?

JacksonW - have you seen Silicon Valley since the late 90s - with few exceptions it is a vast wasteland. I worked out there for about 5 months a few years ago and I went to a Volvo dealer to test drive an S80. The salesman was a former software engineer. Ditto for the bartender at my hotel.

A friend of mine worked for Cisco and Intel and she moved from San Jose about 8 years ago to Sacramento because jobs were being shifted out of state (Cisco to Seattle and Intel to Phoenix). She now works at a small hosting company in Sacramento because she can't afford to leave California (underwater mortgage).

Now, "wasteland" is a bit of an overstatement. The place certainly ain't what it used to be though. So many of the software jobs have gone overseas. The companies have also realized that they can find talent in othe rparts of the country, too, and at a lower cost of living.

JacksonW - have you seen Silicon Valley since the late 90s - with few exceptions it is a vast wasteland. I worked out there for about 5 months a few years ago and I went to a Volvo dealer to test drive an S80. The salesman was a former software engineer. Ditto for the bartender at my hotel.

A friend of mine worked for Cisco and Intel and she moved from San Jose about 8 years ago to Sacramento because jobs were being shifted out of state (Cisco to Seattle and Intel to Phoenix). She now works at a small hosting company in Sacramento because she can't afford to leave California (underwater mortgage).

Was at Apple headquarters 3 years ago for workforce issues(how to hire talented folks for the Apple stores). Economy was slower but still humming. By the way poaching good employees is now an important issue again for many companies out there. I wasn't stating that they were immune from the economic downturn, but even as cash flow gets tighter they aren't interested in moving any of the highest tier jobs from high taxed California. They have to spread workforce around the country, one it is to be closer to customers, two they don't want to always compete for the same talent. Three, it is smart to have lower paid employees work in lower cost cities.

How many of the 5000 best paid people at Google, Apple or Cisco work within 100 miles of headquarters in high tax California? How many call center employees work in low tax Texas? Which type are you interested in attracting over the next 20 years will be a strong predictor of the future of your city. Any job is a good job, but some are considerably better than others.

You guys are fooling yourself if we're not "progressive". OKC wouldn't have come this far and be thinking and building for the future (Devon, MAPS 3, Project 180) if we weren't progressive. You do realize MAPS 3 and Project 180 combined (this isn't even counting the more than half a billion for new I-40, new boulevard, or the near $1 Billion in new road construction underway) is the largest or one of the largest public projects ever undertaken by a U.S. City? This is completely TRANSFORMATIONAL at the highest level. Could we be more progressive, sure as any city can.

Even progressiveboy's beloved Dallas had to start somewhere, and when they were are size, I bet they were ooing and awwwing for the call centers and whatever they could take, but they didn't stop there, just like OKC isn't. I'm so sick of hearing this progressive Dallas crap blah blah blah. Most of us posters have traveled all over the world and know what every other major city is like. I'd even argue that OKC is more progressive than Dallas when Dallas was our size. When/If OKC ever gets to reach 6 million people, let's compare that OKC to the Dallas of now.:ou

Estimated Population of Dallas and immediate surrounding suburbs (Irving, plano, Richardson, Addison, Carrollton, Duncanville, Stephensville, Mesquite, Garland...) As of 2008 is believed to be 3.5 mill, Dallas county proper is estimated at 2.4 Mill. Even if the expected growth estimates are true from 2008-20010 at a 25% increase it still would not reach more than 4.2 million in the Dallas and immediate suburb population. In recent months, there has been a slow but sure exodus of Telecom and construction based citizens, so I would say the estimate would safely rest in the 2010 census near 4 million for dallas and surrounding suburbs.
Dallas County QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/48113.html)

I guess my point is, OKC cannot be compared to Dallas, because it is not next to another 2 million resident city like Ft. Worth. (Bringing the total DFW metroplex to about 6 mill altogether, not 6 million for just dallas, for clarification). You cant even compare OKC to Ft. Worth, because former citizens who were employed in Dallas, often seek employment in Ft. Worth as opposed to moving out of state, and find a lower cost of living there while still enjoying the benefits of the Dallas Metro near by.

I would say closer cities to aim at would be KC metro area (2.2Mill) or St. Louis (just under 3mill) or Denver and Suburbs (right at 3 mill). They are fairly isolated and were KC mostly in KS, they would be the singular most densely populated metros in the state. Much like Dallas though, they had huge growth not only in the 80's where OK didnt, but exceeded the growth in the 90's despite the maps initiatives. But from what I'm hearing in all of those cities, there has been quite a slow down in construction and industry. THATS why I think the maps 3 initiative, and the citys commitment to its renissance was so key. Now its OKC's turn as a focal point for corporate relocations. The steps they have taken, in my opinion have been progressive.

Again, i'll use Dallas' example with Jerry World. Had they been more willing and creative with the obstacles they faced together, I would have said Dallas was Progressive in their thinking. However, I think the city grew, despite the City's Gov. just from the momentum of projects that landed there from 2000-2010. I think the metro will see quite a slowdown in the next few years.

My Opinion, Signing off!
Keep it real OKC!

Published on February 23, 2010 6:08 AM
By Wailin Wong

Motorola Inc. may be moving its headquarters to California after its mobile-phone unit splits off to become its own company.

On Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal quoted co-Chief Executive Sanjay Jha as saying in an interview: "We'll go where that talent is, and right now, that looks like California."

The interview was held last week at Mobile World Congress, an industry show in Spain.

The most valuable resource in Oklahoma City area to leverage is your universities.

Published on February 23, 2010 6:08 AM
By Wailin Wong

Motorola Inc. may be moving its headquarters to California after its mobile-phone unit splits off to become its own company.

On Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal quoted co-Chief Executive Sanjay Jha as saying in an interview: "We'll go where that talent is, and right now, that looks like California."

The interview was held last week at Mobile World Congress, an industry show in Spain.

The most valuable resource in Oklahoma City area to leverage is your universities.

Great post. Talent is and always will be the driving factor for big-time companies whose jobs we covet. It doesn't matter how "anti-business" some of these states are alleged to be, if they have the talent that is coveted, they get the high-paying jobs.

We can always go after the bottom feeders looking for the cheapest business cost environment and the folks looking to pay the lowest wages.

It's tough. We have a chicken and egg syndrome: we don't have enough high-paying jobs to keep the talent we do have in state. Then, we don't have enough talent to attract the big-time corporations.

Our best opportunity is sitting under our collective noses right now: Oklahoma could make itself the energy state, as we are providers of so many kinds of new energy sources -- plus oil and gas. Of course, the oilies want us to forever be known as an "oil and gas state."

Published on February 23, 2010 6:08 AM
By Wailin Wong

Motorola Inc. may be moving its headquarters to California after its mobile-phone unit splits off to become its own company.

On Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal quoted co-Chief Executive Sanjay Jha as saying in an interview: "We'll go where that talent is, and right now, that looks like California."

The interview was held last week at Mobile World Congress, an industry show in Spain.

The most valuable resource in Oklahoma City area to leverage is your universities.

...and now the rest of story. If they move to California they will be leaving Chicago. Only Chicago (and Detroit) can make California look good.

Daily Herald | Motorola insists no decisions made on handset unit move (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=361265)


The comments followed a Wall Street Journal report Tuesday in which Motorola Co-CEO Sanjay Jha said he was "considering" a move of handset operations to California. The report offered no details on what kind of move might be considered or how many employees might be involved, and Motorola was not providing any more detail on Tuesday.

Jha came to Motorola from San Diego and still resides there, and Motorola has operations in Sunnyvale, Calif. San Diego officials said Tuesday they have not spoken with Motorola, but the company has wireless operations there and some vacant space. Officials in Sunnyvale declined to discuss issues involving a possible Motorola move.

I'll just be glad when this recession is over and more jobs are available. Sigh.....

I did a little investigating and it appears that RadioShack is looking to move out of Ft. Worth. They will need about 300,000 of office space that they plan to build. Could this be the office building near MidFirst that someone linked to awhile back? The timing of the RadioShack rumor and the release of proposed building at I-44 and I-235 are about the same - November of last year.

You can google 'RadioShack corporate relocation' and read several cryptic stories.

Here is the link to thread about the proposed tower at I-44 and Broadway Extension.

http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19626-new-highrise-i-44-broaday-ext.html Saw this in the Dallas Business Journal:

RadioShack to stay in Fort Worth

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2010/03/08/daily50.html

Okay, so the plan for RadioShack to relocate here gone bust.

Who'se plan was it for that to happen? It looked like it was just board rumors.

Who'se plan was it for that to happen? It looked like it was just board rumors.

What is a "board rumor?"

According to the article, Oklahoma City was never approached. That makes me think the original poster fabricated this.

a board rumor is when someone just decides to say something like Radio Shack moving their HQ to OKC without the remotest bit of substance - then the rumor takes on a life of it's own.

a board rumor is when someone just decides to say something like Radio Shack moving their HQ to OKC without the remotest bit of substance - then the rumor takes on a life of it's own.

I tried to kill the 'rumor' back on post #56 with this.


Fact 5: There is no fact 5. The word 'rumor' might be a little strong. I prefer 'unsubstantiated wild and reckless speculation'.

I do find it interesting that Radio Shack only signed a deal for 6 years. That is only 3 years longer than they originally planned. Maybe the are waiting for the economy to improve before they move. They have 1700 people to relocated and this isn't the housing market for that kind of move.

I'll just be glad when this recession is over and more jobs are available. Sigh.....

What recession. Market correction maybe, not to mention job creation is now at the highest in 18 months.

What recession. Market correction maybe, not to mention job creation is now at the highest in 18 months.

That isn't saying much because the last 18 months have sucked. That is like saying the Clippers are having their best season in a decade.

True, but the "recession" never really hit OK that hard, dispite us having tax revenue shortfalls (mainly caused by oil revenues down). We never had massive layoffs like most states.

True, but the "recession" never really hit OK that hard, dispite us having tax revenue shortfalls (mainly caused by oil revenues down). We never had massive layoffs like most states.

Tru dat. I can tell you first hand there are people I work with here in Atlanta that have been asking what it is like to live in OKC. I usually start out by playing off the sterotypes. They start seeing how stupid the question is when I start mentioning that it is cool seeing the Indians hunting buffalo while you drive down the highway. Some even ask me if I am being serious. Then they realize it is like living anywhere else.

Thought I would bring this thread back up, with the talk of Devon building becoming available.

Read good information at Steve's Blog.

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/