Several misconceptions in this thread that anyone with a newspaper subscription could rebut:

As has been written in the newspaper, the Fire Chief was asked to propose how he would make a 12 percent cut in FY 2011. It’s the Council’s prerogative to use the MAPS 3 use tax, so that he doesn’t have to make any cuts in the end, but he’s not in a position to count on that at this point in the process, so he has to propose cuts. But, it’s been well-documented in the paper that the Council does not intend to make any public safety cuts, thanks to the MAPS 3 use tax. The only remaining debate is whether the MAPS 3 use tax will also be used to increase the public safety staffing, as the Mayor proposed, but that’s not the issue at hand. Bottom line - there has been multiple public assurances by Mayor and Council that there will not be cuts to public safety in FY2010 or 2011, and there is no evidence yet to the contrary.

The idea that people need to start worrying about jumps in their home insurance costs over public safety cuts that aren’t happening is just silly.

Someone asked how use tax that hasn’t been collected yet can offset FY 2010 public safety cuts. Money is fungible, and the City does have a cash reserve. They can dip into that and then replenish it with the use tax when it is collected. Or a line of credit with minimal interest can be taken out, as with the Ford Center project. Not that big of a deal.

The Ford Center project is coming in under revenue estimates, but it’s also coming in under cost estimates. The hole really isn’t going to be that big. The idea that MAPS 3 contingency money will be used to fill the Ford Center hole is silly. That money won’t be available for years, and obviously it will likely be needed for MAPS 3. That’s why it was put there.

Credibility? We have a difference of opinion. I'm not saying anyone should believe me more than you because I have certain degrees and licenses. My arguments stand for themselves.

Credibility? We have a difference of opinion. I'm not saying anyone should believe me more than you because I have certain degrees and licenses. My arguments stand for themselves.

And unlike MikeMarsh, you work more than three days a week...

3 days a week, what a deal.

Where do I sign up for that gig?

Oh, you mean I have to work for 24 hrs. and not 9 am to 4 pm.

I gotta get all hot, sweaty and dirty and may not come home from work due to injury or death, wow,
hmmm.
On second thought, I am definitely out on that.
That dont sound like too good of a deal to me.

3 days a week, what a deal.

Where do I sign up for that gig?

Oh, you mean I have to work for 24 hrs. and not 9 am to 4 pm.

I gotta get all hot, sweaty and dirty and may not come home from work due to injury or death, wow,
hmmm.
On second thought, I am definitely out on that.
That dont sound like too good of a deal to me.

Than why do you do it?

Im just poking a little fun at all of the uptight guys on here.

Sorry guys, just a little humor.....

LordGerald almighty, where have you been hiding? Let's look again at hours worked. Average Joe works 52 weeks, 40 hours a week. That equals 2080 hours a year. Firefighters are on one of three shifts. So they will work 1/3 of the time. That equals 2912 hours a year. So your snippy little quip is nothing more than a falsehood. Man, if your going to be a prick at least try to get the facts right.

LordGerald almighty, where have you been hiding? Let's look again at hours worked. Average Joe works 52 weeks, 40 hours a week. That equals 2080 hours a year. Firefighters are on one of three shifts. So they will work 1/3 of the time. That equals 2912 hours a year. So your snippy little quip is nothing more than a falsehood. Man, if your going to be a prick at least try to get the facts right.

You're starting to crack MM. I was going to recommend you for the campaign director job for the coming public vote to get you your one percent raise, but if you can't take the heat, you're probably not the right person for the job. Pray for good weather, as there will be plenty of lawns for you to mow this spring.

LordGerald almighty, It's interesting that you've made the determination that somehow I am defective since I've chosen to defend myself against your put down. My guess is you don't take it too well when someone pushes back a little.

So your snippy little quip is nothing more than a falsehood. Man, if your going to be a prick at least try to get the facts right.

Man Mike, talk about asking a leopard to change his spots. He's not going to let a little thing like the facts get in the way of him throwing out some barbs.

So captain, you are telling me that you are going to listen to a ONE sided newspaper that has done nothing but try and hurt the FD inamge since the 6 PAGE article in the paper and still to this day is trying to make us look like the bad gys? But you wont believe the Deputy chief nor the OCFD FIRE CHIEF, THE FIRE CHIEF, when he is asked to make the budget cuts of 12% that came FROM jim couch, that there are going to be NO layoffs and people shouldnt worry? Really, how do you know this?

Have you been reading and lstening to the nation for the past 3 years. its happening to numerous departments but you seem to think that 100% of the city council wont lay off FF?. they wont if it affects their district.

Also it is talked by midtown that the maps 3 hasnt even been collected yet. did you know that our city loses 16million to internet sales and thus affecting the city budget? I truely think that the people whom are thinking this is a ploy need to get of their high horse and realize that this is fact, our reccession proof city is getting hit and has been over a year now acording to the budget director.

Losing 16 million to internet sales?

Can you even get close to substantiating that?

And if you are, so what? We also lose lots of money to Dallas, Edmond, Norman, etc. You gotta compete to succeed. And that brings us full circle. MAPS III puts us in a position to compete for those sales tax dollars while sitting on our derrières, bitching about lost tax revenue gets us nothing.

Losing 16 million to INTERNET sales?

Can you even get close to substantiating that?

And if you are, so what? We also lose lots of money to Dallas, Edmond, Norman, etc. You gotta compete to succeed. And that brings us full circle. MAPS III puts us in a position to compete for those sales tax dollars while sitting on our derrières, bitching about lost tax revenue gets us nothing.

I agree with part of this statement, if we do things correctly we can keep some of the tax dollars in OKC (keep people from shopping Dallas, Norman, Tulsa, etc:), but the real problem is INTERNET sales. It's a fact you can save money shopping/buying on line, but the negative effect on the local tax base is tremendous. I have 2 close friends that have closed their small business', partly because of revenue lost to INTERNET sales.

By Local

I hate to say it, but part of capitalism is getting to go out of business when someone builds a better mousetrap. Your friends could have competed (for example) by going online. They didn't, now they're no longer in business. They have no one to blame but themselves though.

Yeah, that may sound a little 'Qu ils mangent brioche,' but it is what it is.

MAPS is only part of the solution, perhaps the Chamber of Commerce or whatever Oklahoma entity that works with small businesses should do free seminars about putting businesses online? Or failing that, perhaps small businesses should buy a few books, hire some consultants and get themselves online?

this whole thread is a mouseTRAP!
Kill the thread! Kill the thread!
It's become a creative dual edged dig at occupations and spending that none of us individually can control.
:whiteflag

I hate to say it, but part of capitalism is getting to go out of business when someone builds a better mousetrap. Your friends could have competed (for example) by going online. They didn't, now they're no longer in business. They have no one to blame but themselves though.

Yeah, that may sound a little 'Qu ils mangent brioche,' but it is what it is.

MAPS is only part of the solution, perhaps the Chamber of Commerce or whatever Oklahoma entity that works with small businesses should do free seminars about putting businesses online? Or failing that, perhaps small businesses should buy a few books, hire some consultants and get themselves online?

I disagree with small business' having to sell on line to compete. I'm not one for increasing tax's , but INTERNET sales should be taxed at the same rate as in store purchases.

I disagree with small business' having to sell on line to compete. I'm not one for increasing tax's , but INTERNET sales should be taxed at the same rate as in store purchases.

I hate to be the grammar douche, but you need to know this: an apostrophe does not make something plural. It's "taxes" and "businesses," apostrophes are (mostly) only to indicate possession.

As far as internet sales go, there's a Supreme Court case, Quill vs. North Dakota which forbids the collection of sales tax for companies which don't have a "substantial nexus" with the state. Accordingly, saying that these companies ought to be collecting taxes is more than likely a losing argument without some federal regulatory/taxation scheme.

RC,

The rest of us knew what you meant in your statement, whether or not you used correct grammar or used an apostrophe or not.

This is a message board/public forum, not an English Composition class.
I am sure that RC knows the apostrophe rules. If he does not, then who cares..lol Its the content that we are after.

The English police are watchin ya......

I disagree with small business' having to sell on line to compete. I'm not one for increasing tax's , but INTERNET sales should be taxed at the same rate as in store purchases.

While I can see your point for those items that can easily and readily be found within the state, what about specialty items that I cannot find here? Why should I pay local taxes on certain brands or types of products I can't even find in Oklahoma?

RC,

The rest of us knew what you meant in your statement, whether or not you used correct grammar or used an apostrophe or not.

This is a message board/public forum, not an English Composition class.
I am sure that RC knows the apostrophe rules. If he does not, then who cares..lol Its the content that we are after.

The English police are watchin ya......

When you're communicating using the written word, best to use it properly. I couldn't imagine someone would know and understand those rules and then purposefully choose not to use them.

In my eyes, letting someone continue to make those same mistakes over and over again and not telling them is akin to letting them walk around with their fly open.

I hate to be the grammar douche, but you need to know this: an apostrophe does not make something plural. It's "taxes" and "businesses," apostrophes are (mostly) only to indicate possession.

As far as internet sales go, there's a Supreme Court case, Quill vs. North Dakota which forbids the collection of sales tax for companies which don't have a "substantial nexus" with the state. Accordingly, saying that these companies ought to be collecting taxes is more than likely a losing argument without some federal regulatory/taxation scheme.

Well excuse the hell out of me!!

While I can see your point for those items that can easily and readily be found within the state, what about specialty items that I cannot find here? Why should I pay local taxes on certain brands or types of products I can't even find in Oklahoma?

I agree if it's something you can't find locally, but if it's available, I think we should buy local.

Midtowner, when you get settled into your law business, I certainly hope somebody will let you be in charge of something!

When you're communicating using the written word, best to use it properly. I couldn't imagine someone would know and understand those rules and then purposefully choose not to use them.

In my eyes, letting someone continue to make those same mistakes over and over again and not telling them is akin to letting them walk around with their fly open.

I read in another thread where someone called you a jerk, now I see why.

I think I spelled JERK correctly.

I thought I was doing you a favor. How would I know that you prefer to appear ignorant?

My bad.

This is primary school grammar. It's not like I criticized you for having a dangling participle or ending a sentence with a preposition. But I've been called much worse than jerk.

I read in another thread where someone called you a jerk, now I see why.

I think I spelled JERK correctly.

Dont be too hard on the young man. Mid is just trying to baffle us with his brilliance. He had to be a double major in school, Law and English.
What a deadly combination. He is just pumped about finally getting out of school. Congrats to him. Way to go, little camper.
He will eventually get to practice law, but for now he will be keeping the coffee pots full.

Oh by the way, RC you receive an "A" for spelling today. JERK is the correct spelling. Thanks for your input.....

I thought I was doing you a favor. How would I know that you prefer to appear ignorant?

My bad.

This is primary school grammar. It's not like I criticized you for having a dangling participle or ending a sentence with a preposition. But I've been called much worse than jerk.

Man take a chill's pill...............It is after only the internet and not truly social in anything................:sofa:

http://www.sharingmachine.com/prodimages/apostrophes-mens-400.jpg

http://www.sharingmachine.com/prodimages/apostrophes-mens-400.jpg

I would bet anything Midtowner is the only child in his family or the last born!!!

Junkie, don't let him get to you, he's a CEO in the making. Just looking for the company that needs a ready made man at the top. I did look up the word
douche in the dictionary, it said "see Midtowner"!

Midtowner,
the FD I blieve is the only city department that does NOT collect its own revenue, our money comes from tax. So as a department we watch the taxes and revenues. Thats how people make budgets by seeing what they bring in and what % that department gets dictates what their budget will be. I think lawyers sit on thier butts more, while we are out going door to door passing out smoek detectors or making sure the hydrants work or running calls or training you sit in a comfy chair, online or reading books, signing contracts, listening to someone whom says they have a neck injury from a MVA they were in at parking lot speeds with NO damage but somehow they were wearing their seatbelts, went into the windshield and was unconscious for an unknown amount of time.

by the way RC i am surpised mid dindt call you on it. you said JERK. its jerk, because it isnot the begining of a sentance and the first letter should be lower case as well as the others... I got mid dont worry. you dont need him to get yourself fired up for an upcoming case.

My goodness you guys are sensitive. I guess the way some of you were whining about your having to face the same economic realities as the rest of the world, I shouldn't be so surprised.

My goodness you guys are sensitive. I guess the way some of you were whining about your having to face the same economic realities as the rest of the world, I shouldn't be so surprised.

Here's an idea. You can lecture the rest of us, you so casually call whiners, about economic realities after you get yourself a job that's not in the "family business". It would certainly carry a little more weight if you worked for someone you weren't related to.

Okay.. not even worth responding to anymore.

Whaaaaaaaaaa....I want money too....

Firefighters have officially offered back an awarded raise 4 times now as of Friday. So there shouldn't be any talk about Firefighters asking for a raise.
As for salary reductions..... Lets say you are a Doctor, or lawyer or whatever profession you choose, and your Boss comes to you and says "hey I need to hire another employee for my business, hospital, firm, whatever" " and I don't want to spend my money or the companies money, so I want you to pay for the new position out of your money" I know you are just an employee and it isn't your responsibility to pay for another employee to work here by taking money away from your family, but that is what I want you to do" ....Doesn't seem right does it? That is exactly what Tulsa did to the firefighters and most likely what OKC will ask the Firefighters here to do. IT IS NOT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE EMPLOYEE TO PROVIDE THE FUNDS FOR A SERVICE! It falls on the company or in this case the City to provide the money for the service it offers. Yeah yeah, the city is broke..bs! There is so much money being moved around from account to account that it isn't even funny. No other city that is talking about layoffs, enjoys the 3/4 cent sales tax relief from their general budget to help with public safety. AND... OKC has one of the highest reserve fund balances in the whole United States of America. It is absurd to talk about laying off 140 Firefighters in this City. Sure, I can see no pay increases, I believe the Firefighters have responded to that by again for the 4th time, offering back a raise that was awarded last year by an arbitrator.

Are you saying that salary cuts never happen in the private sector?

Are you saying that salary cuts never happen in the private sector?

Midtowner, please refer to your previous posting, #94.

> Firefighters have officially offered back an awarded raise 4
> times now as of Friday.

For my own clarity, has there been repeated offers to forego an awarded raise, 4 by your posted count, or have their been 4 offers to negotiate away the awarded raise in exchange for a commitment on another point?

Not gritching, but I thought I had heard the latter, and just wanted to wrap my head around what's what. While somewhat similar, those aren't exactly the same fish kettle.

Midtowner, please refer to your previous posting, #94.rcjunkie, please refer to your previous posting, #84. Have you and Midtowner kissed, and made up? Does this mean you no longer consider him a jerk?

LordGerald almighty, where have you been hiding? Let's look again at hours worked. Average Joe works 52 weeks, 40 hours a week. That equals 2080 hours a year. Firefighters are on one of three shifts. So they will work 1/3 of the time. That equals 2912 hours a year. So your snippy little quip is nothing more than a falsehood. Man, if your going to be a prick at least try to get the facts right.

I lost track of what this thread is about but I do want to correct this statement. Fire Fighters get paid for 2,912 hours and you are on duty during that time, but I wouldn't call most of that 2,912 hours 'work'. Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you have beds, a basketball court, video game systems, a workout room, and other recreational material. I have none of those things at work - and for good reason - I am usually always busy at work.

I know the firefighter job is hard so don't get me wrong. I also know you aren't fighting a fire for 24 straight hours everyday and not every call is a potential life-ending call. Pizza delivery guys 'work' more hours and die more often in the line of duty.

Out of curosity, how many alarms does the OKC fire department respond to in an average day? Is there anywhere to see a break down of call type?

Kerry, how nice of you to pick a fight. First, Our contract states that we are paid an hourly wage. That wage is calulated by 2080 hours. I have no idea where you get that we are paid hour for hour. It is clearly worded that we are salaried employees. That the hours are discussed to give an indication of what the salary and benefits are worth. Funny thing is if you are late you have your wages reduced by the amount you are late. As far as I know, salaried employees are not docked minute for minute. Speak to any HR person and they will tell you salaried employees are not docked time like that. Secondly, The city understands it is better to have healthy employess and require us to exercise 1.5 hours per shift. This reduces stress and builds a healthy employee. The Fire department responds to an average of 218 calls per day. 297-3314 ask for the Fire Chief, he will tell you any thing you want to know.

Let me ask you this, let's say you went to work at 7 am and worked until 5 pm. You then were required to sit in the receptionist chair until the following 7 am. You didnt have to do anything just be there. How would you expect to be compensated? Are you saying you didnt work so you would do that for free? Are you saying well I was in the chair and I was trained to handled any thing that might have come up, I did go out in the parking lot and pick up a little old man who fell down. Bandaged him up, found his next of kin and got him sheltered. Was that work?

I am not saying we work every single minute while on duty. But I am at work for 24 hours per shift. 3 shifts equals 1/3 third of the time. 2080 is less than 1/4 of the time. Oh and by the way, I have had many days when I never saw a bed, let alone get in it.

I have friends who work for the fire department. Before they thought it might be a good idea to keep it on the downlow I used to hear about how much free time they had. They work out, spend time online, cook fancy dinners for each other, play basketball. They all have second and third jobs in their free time and they live in super nice houses. They think they have the greatest job in the world. I'm having trouble seeing what all the griping is about unless firemen are losing their jobs. If that happens, then they're like the rest of the po folk out there who lost their jobs in this downturn.

Mike - I wasn't picking a fight and I understand you need to be compensated for ‘just sitting there’ - it is more than just being on-call. My only point is that you are not actively engaged in fire-fighting duties all 24 hours of every shift and not every call is one you might not come home from (rare traffic accidents withstanding).

rcjunkie, please refer to your previous posting, #84. Have you and Midtowner kissed, and made up? Does this mean you no longer consider him a jerk?

No making up on my part, and I must correct you, It's JERK, not jerk!!

Have a Great Day Andy and be safe!

There sure is a lot of testosterone in this thread.

No making up on my part, and I must correct you, It's JERK, not jerk!!

Have a Great Day Andy and be safe!I hate to hear that, and I stand corrected, thanks.

There sure is a lot of testosterone in this thread.It's a guy thing.

Mike - I wasn't picking a fight and I understand you need to be compensated for ‘just sitting there’ - it is more than just being on-call. My only point is that you are not actively engaged in fire-fighting duties all 24 hours of every shift

Not exactly sure what your getting at Kerry. I'm sure you have a point but your not making it very well. What is your solution to what you see as a problem. As Mikemarsh said the nights that I get to sleep all night at the sta. are far out numbered by the nights that I'm up at least part of the night if not most or all of it due to calls. And I work at what's considered a slow station. I couldn't tell you how many times I report to work at 7:00 a.m. and eat my first meal at around 8:00 p.m. during grass fire season. You seem to want a schedule for something that by its nature is unscheduled. I'm not sure what your solution is.


and not every call is one you might not come home from (rare traffic accidents withstanding).

While you seem to think traffic accidents are the most dangerous thing we face, maybe you need to talk to some of the guys who made a simple medical call only to leave exposed to infectious TB or worse. I had a friend who retired from one of the metro area fire departments after 25 years only to be diagnosed with a rare cancerous tumor 6 months later. By coincidence it was the same type of cancer some of his fellow workers and retirees had been diagnosed with also. You see 20 years earlier they had all been on the same semi-trailer fire that was being used to store pesticides and herbicides. He died less than a year after his diagnosis. I hope you don't think that just because we don't get run over on the highway or have a house or building collapse while we're fighting a fire in it that what we're doing doesn't carry some risk. It's of course calculated risk most of the time and we accept it as part of the job, but I'm not seeing where your coming from.

There sure is a lot of testosterone in this thread.

I hear you PQ. We're solving the worlds problems one at a time. It's a little slower process than I thought.

Hope your return has been everything you anticipated.

eef, you can slice this anyway you want to. Those guys that talked about free time may not have been taking into account the fact that when you work a shift, you are working a day shift, night shift and a graveyard shift. Still it is 1/3 of the time. 9 to 5 people work less than 1/4 of the time.

Kerry, I got to agree with Wambo, I have no idea what your trying to say. Maybe you need Midtowner to explain it to you so you can pass it along to the rest of us.

I hear you PQ. We're solving the worlds problems one at a time. It's a little slower process than I thought.

Hope your return has been everything you anticipated.

It has been wonderful, thank you - so glad to be home.

Carry on, boys. Heads must be butted.

... Heads must be butted.

It's when they get all versa vicea that it' ain't purty.

It's when they get all versa vicea that it' ain't purty.I have to agree, butted heads aint purty.

Several misconceptions in this thread that anyone with a newspaper subscription could rebut:

As has been written in the newspaper, the Fire Chief was asked to propose how he would make a 12 percent cut in FY 2011. It’s the Council’s prerogative to use the MAPS 3 use tax, so that he doesn’t have to make any cuts in the end, but he’s not in a position to count on that at this point in the process, so he has to propose cuts. But, it’s been well-documented in the paper that the Council does not intend to make any public safety cuts, thanks to the MAPS 3 use tax. The only remaining debate is whether the MAPS 3 use tax will also be used to increase the public safety staffing, as the Mayor proposed, but that’s not the issue at hand. Bottom line - there has been multiple public assurances by Mayor and Council that there will not be cuts to public safety in FY2010 or 2011, and there is no evidence yet to the contrary.

The idea that people need to start worrying about jumps in their home insurance costs over public safety cuts that aren’t happening is just silly.

Someone asked how use tax that hasn’t been collected yet can offset FY 2010 public safety cuts. Money is fungible, and the City does have a cash reserve. They can dip into that and then replenish it with the use tax when it is collected. Or a line of credit with minimal interest can be taken out, as with the Ford Center project. Not that big of a deal.

The Ford Center project is coming in under revenue estimates, but it’s also coming in under cost estimates. The hole really isn’t going to be that big. The idea that MAPS 3 contingency money will be used to fill the Ford Center hole is silly. That money won’t be available for years, and obviously it will likely be needed for MAPS 3. That’s why it was put there.Then how will the hole be filled?

Then how will the hole be filled?

Same way the state does, take it from somewhere else.
Not so long ago, the highway patrol was noting that without relief, the last quarter of state fy would see them on 4 day a month furloughs.

That's already a non-issue if I recall right, but they had to plan for it all the same, just in case it wasn't. And they had to make it known to the folks who could do something about it in time for something to be done.

Not filling vacancies, foregoing raises and not repairing necessary stuff or replacing stuff can't cut the mustard forever. Sounds like OKC may be pretty close to that point, if not past it.

Several misconceptions in this thread that anyone with a newspaper subscription could rebut:

The idea that people need to start worrying about jumps in their home insurance costs over public safety cuts that aren’t happening is just silly.


You'll have to excuse us for believing what's being put out by the people who run the city. Unless the name "CaptainCouch" is code for Jim Couch, I'm not sure why we should put more stock in what your saying than in what he's saying. He made it pretty clear in the news story last night that there will be cuts coming. They've even hired outside legal help to make sure of it.