I have seen the future of crossroads Mall if anyone with the financial backing has the desire to pull it off. This last week I paid a visit to Discover Mills Mall in Lawrenceville, GA (metro Atlanta). This concept based in OKC would be a sure winner and could bring Crossroads back to life.
So what makes Discover Mills unique? It is basically an outlet mall with the usual outlet stores with some regular mall stores, but the big difference is what it uses instead of large anchor department stores. It has 7 spaces that are the size of department stores but they house the following 7 businesses.

1. A huge Bass Pro.
2. An 18 screen theater
3. Medieval Times Dinner Theater
4. Airsoft Combat Arena
5. An indoor skate park
6. A huge Books A Million
7. Dave and Busters

They also have an 18 hole mini golf course, a store with a 465 foot slot racing track ($5 for 5 minutes of racing), an indoor inflatable bouncing business with 8 very large inflated climbing structures, a rock climbing wall, and many similar businesses. It is basically a large indoor amusement park where the parents can shop while the kids play. Perfect for those cold days.

Discover Mills - Lawrenceville, GA 30043 | Simon Malls (http://www.discovermills.com)

That would be cool!a regional draw!

$1/minute??????????????????????????????

They should name that mall "Something to do while waiting to die"

I can see where that would draw quite a few teenagers, but mall rats is not what will save a mall in a bad location with that much space to fill.

Those Mills Malls are all over the country. Used to live just a few miles away from one that was just outside Houston, Katy Mills. They are not as great as they sound, and as the previous poster mentioned, its a draw for the mall rats. We would go there occasionally to go to the movies or if hubby wanted something at Bass Pro Shop but thats about it. Even with it being located in a nice upscale community outside of a city the size of Houston, it was almost always devoid of shoppers.

it would make more sense to covert it into some sort of prison.

At least its in the right location.

We have a Mills mall in St. Louis and I agree with Debzkidz. With the exception of a couple of novelties (and ours doesn't have a Medieval Times or a golf course) it's just a crappy-built cheapo mall with acres of parking and not a lot of shoppers. I don't think it could overcome the major problems with Crossroads: the location and the fact that people's tastes are moving away from enclosed malls of all types. I haven't been to Crossroads in years and years and years but it could be that that needs a complete reinvention away from retail altogether. The times have changed.

I believe I have a better solution for the Federally owned mall, ( but no money to attempt it myself)
Imagine this, take the big department store spaces, put in a sub floor with hidden plumbing, build Two thousand small apartments in them. rent out the small store spaces to coffee shops, small resteraunts, eye doctors, dentist, health clinic, small clothing and specialty stores that cater to the elderly. Build in a small theater, and things for visiting family members to do. Fence the whole property wtih security and nice walking trail and park. then rent out the apartments to independent elderly people, kind of an assisted living center that encompasses everything a person would need in one little city. Imagine if there were over 2000 apartments at $2000 a month, that would be 4 million a month, then throw in the rental for retail and other monies, It could be profitable over a period of time and most likely, the right group could get the whole property "donated" by the federal government at no cost. THis would be a premier place for the independant aging to move to. Families would come to visit, spend money, etc.... I have never heard of any thing like this at such a large scale. Anyone?

I think some posters on here don't have a clue about the current state of real estate or how the business works. That's all I'll say.

As a concept, I think it's great.

A second bass pro isn't going to happen, it would suck the life right out of the downtown location.

Regardless of what happens, Crossroads will be sitting in it's current state for a good long while. Renovations are going to be costly. Demoltion is going to cost even more.

I think it could easily be converted over to a convention and event center with office space and service shops. The retail big box stores could be converted into Ballrooms, Exhibit Halls or large auditoriums. The place already has plenty of parking so why not use it as something would draw large crowds.

As with most Mills malls, Discover Mills is in a medium high-income, suburban environment. Crossroads is not. That's all I have to add.

I have seen the future of crossroads Mall if anyone with the financial backing has the desire to pull it off. This last week I paid a visit to Discover Mills Mall in Lawrenceville, GA (metro Atlanta). This concept based in OKC would be a sure winner and could bring Crossroads back to life.
So what makes Discover Mills unique? It is basically an outlet mall with the usual outlet stores with some regular mall stores, but the big difference is what it uses instead of large anchor department stores. It has 7 spaces that are the size of department stores but they house the following 7 businesses.

1. A huge Bass Pro.
2. An 18 screen theater
3. Medieval Times Dinner Theater
4. Airsoft Combat Arena
5. An indoor skate park
6. A huge Books A Million
7. Dave and Busters

They also have an 18 hole mini golf course, a store with a 465 foot slot racing track ($5 for 5 minutes of racing), an indoor inflatable bouncing business with 8 very large inflated climbing structures, a rock climbing wall, and many similar businesses. It is basically a large indoor amusement park where the parents can shop while the kids play. Perfect for those cold days.

Discover Mills - Lawrenceville, GA 30043 | Simon Malls (http://www.discovermills.com)

Are you serious? Why do you have this desire to bring back Crossroads Mall? Many things wrong with that idea. First of all, Crossroads is dead because the location is bad. A better proposal to bring the mall back would be to pick it up and move it to Moore. Even then it would continue to struggle because indoor shopping malls are dinosaurs. No one is building them any more, no one is going to them anymore, and stores are no longer adding locations in indoor shopping malls for the most part. That's probably the #1 shift in city planning trends that has occurred over the last 10 years.

And second of all and more importantly, even if you wanted to bring it back, why? Crossroads disappearing frees up retail demand for downtown retail, and more importantly, for inner southside retail to make a comeback. If you have followed the history of the southside as much as I have, as a southsider myself, you'd know that Capitol Hill and other inner southside strips used to be vibrant retail areas--right up until when Crossroads Mall came. Crossroads sucked the life out of the southside. Now it's gone, now the southside can make a comeback.

And all of those things you proposed--a Medieval Dinner Theatre, a Dave and Busters, a Books a Million, an 18 screen theater (which Crossroads already has, also going to go out of business soon)--why can't these things go some place better than Crossroads? I'm sorry but this is like the worst idea I have ever heard, in my life.

--why can't these things go some place better than Crossroads? I'm sorry but this is like the worst idea I have ever heard, in my life.

Oh like the..... I can't believe it takes twenty minutes to get through this Intersection Penn and Memorial.

I think we have enough irons in the fire when it comes to developments.

How about we slow down and fill the buildings we already have. The Crossroads area just needs a little TLC. The first act the city should commit to is sending code enforcement into the neighborhoods into the areas around Crossroads. Second they should charge Valley Brook for fire services. This would force Valley Brook to fold because they do not bring in enough revenue to pay the bills let alone fund their own. After Valley Brook folds they send in OCPD to put the strip clubs under.

If Simon or General Growth owned Crossroads instead of Maerich, it would have seen all the necessary upgrades and renovations Quail and Penn enjoyed. Instead the mall went stagnant and the crime moved in just like what happens every other area of the city when the business owners stop caring.

I have seen the future of crossroads Mall

Discover Mills - Lawrenceville, GA 30043 | Simon Malls (http://www.discovermills.com)


Me too, and it looks like it does right now. It's doomed. I say use it for firefighters training and blow it up. Then build then new racetrack there.

Even then it would continue to struggle because indoor shopping malls are dinosaurs. No one is building them any more, no one is going to them anymore, and stores are no longer adding locations in indoor shopping malls for the most part. That's probably the #1 shift in city planning trends that has occurred over the last 10 years.


So why are enclosed malls out of it? Because it costs too much to heat and cool them, meaning higher rents to pay, and because except for the anchor stores the parking is too far of a walk from the stores?

Imagine if there were over 2000 apartments at $2000 a month, that would be 4 million a month, then throw in the rental for retail and other monies, It could be profitable over a period of time and most likely, the right group could get the whole property "donated" by the federal government at no cost. THis would be a premier place for the independant aging to move to. Families would come to visit, spend money, etc.... I have never heard of any thing like this at such a large scale. Anyone?

I'm not saying your idea is bad but $2000 a month won't happen in OKC. Maybe in New York or LA.

So why are enclosed malls out of it? Because it costs too much to heat and cool them, meaning higher rents to pay, and because except for the anchor stores the parking is too far of a walk from the stores?

Not all enclosed malls are "out of it". I go to Penn Square regularly and it's always busy. I was at Quail on Saturday and close in parking wasn't going to happen. I do qualify for handicap parking and got lucky. I visit some of the newer outdoor centers also and parking isn't any better, espcially if you want to go to more than one store. They may eventually have the same problem but for now they seem to be doing fine.

I'm not saying your idea is bad but $2000 a month won't happen in OKC. Maybe in New York or LA.


I have to disagree, the average cost per room in an assisted living center is between $2400--$4000 per month. I know from experience, my mother lived in one for almost 7 years before she passed. With that said, I don't think this would be appropriate for Crossroads, if not converted to office's, it will more than likely be torn down.

I have to disagree, the average cost per room in an assisted living center is between $2400--$4000 per month. I know from experience, my mother lived in one for almost 7 years before she passed. With that said, I don't think this would be appropriate for Crossroads, if not converted to office's, it will more than likely be torn down.

I agree about the cost for assisted living but that wasn't mentioned in the original post. There is no where near the demand for that kind of housing that would make that feasible for this area.

I agree about the cost for assisted living but that wasn't mentioned in the original post. There is no where near the demand for that kind of housing that would make that feasible for this area.

There actually is a demand for that kind of housing. The only problem is the majority of South OKC's Seniors are/were working class people that do not have the kind of money that exists in other areas of the city. It is kind of hard to build a nest egg when you raise your grandchildren or spend your money bailing your kids out of trouble at every turn.

Turning Crossroads to a residential layout would be costly. From what I understand the mall is in need of electrical, plumbing and drainange upgrades that Maerich neglected to complete. They just paid for quick fix repairs over the years.

Umm - I didn't see any mall rats at Discover Mills. It is probably because there aren't any businesses that cater to teenage girls. No teenage girls - no teenage boys. No teenage boys - no probems. I think there is a misundertanding of people that frequent the skate park and airsoft combat arena. All I saw were families with children - probably becasue it offers a safe controlled environment and you can't play unless you pay.

Granted one in OKC wouldn't have a Bass Pro (that would actually be lease violation anyhow) or a movie theater (as Crossroads already has one) but it would be a huge regional draw and far better than what it is now or has ever been proposed. Throw in an indoor go-cart track, some ultimate laser tag, and few other similar businesses and I think it is viable.

I agree about the cost for assisted living but that wasn't mentioned in the original post. There is no where near the demand for that kind of housing that would make that feasible for this area.

Read post #9 again, assisted living center was mentioned.

Read post #9 again, assisted living center was mentioned.

You're correct. I did miss that and for an assisted living center that price is normal. I still say that there isn't the demand for anything of that size in OKC especially on the South side. Turning that site into an assisted living center would be the largest facility of that kind in the city by far.

There actually is a demand for that kind of housing. The only problem is the majority of South OKC's Seniors are/were working class people that do not have the kind of money that exists in other areas of the city. It is kind of hard to build a nest egg when you raise your grandchildren or spend your money bailing your kids out of trouble at every turn.

Turning Crossroads to a residential layout would be costly. From what I understand the mall is in need of electrical, plumbing and drainange upgrades that Maerich neglected to complete. They just paid for quick fix repairs over the years.

Saying the South side seniors can't afford something because they're bailing their kids out of trouble almost amounts to slander. It's a gross overstatement at the least. Lower income people don't have a monopoly on children who get in trouble. Just look at Ernest Istook's son.

Saying the South side seniors can't afford something because they're bailing their kids out of trouble almost amounts to slander. It's a gross overstatement at the least. Lower income people don't have a monopoly on children who get in trouble. Just look at Ernest Istook's son.

But he's not black.

But he's not black.


The color of ones skin has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Comments like this only show ones ignorance and/or stupidity.

The color of ones skin has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Comments like this only show ones ignorance and/or stupidity.

huh? I thought we were talking about crossroads mall?

huh? I thought we were talking about crossroads mall?

We are, so again I ask, what does the color of ones skin have to do with Crossroads. You not implying that your racist or at the very least a bigot.

We are, so again I ask, what does the color of ones skin have to do with Crossroads. You not implying that your racist or at the very least a bigot.

Based on his posting in some other threads I think FredFred has some 'race and class' issues going on.

Then build then new racetrack there.

I like the idea, would it be feasible though? Are there a lot of neighborhoods around that mall that would complain about the noise of a racetrack? It's near a highway anyways.

... and a dumb thread continues to degenerate. Imagine that.

... and a dumb thread continues to degenerate. Imagine that.

I agree and when Fred begins to add his comments that always seems to happen because everyone is so outraged.

I like the idea, would it be feasible though? Are there a lot of neighborhoods around that mall that would complain about the noise of a racetrack? It's near a highway anyways.

Thats the only reason I mentioned a racetrack in that part of town.....It'll never happen of course, but theres not a lot of substantial residential areas within a mile of the mall.....same reason the mall failed. The only other use I can think of for a space like that would be a comuter college.

Thats the only reason I mentioned a racetrack in that part of town.....It'll never happen of course, but theres not a lot of substantial residential areas within a mile of the mall.....same reason the mall failed. The only other use I can think of for a space like that would be a comuter college.

With Oscar Rose and South OKC so easily reached from there that's not going to happen.

Not all enclosed malls are "out of it". I go to Penn Square regularly and it's always busy. I was at Quail on Saturday and close in parking wasn't going to happen. I do qualify for handicap parking and got lucky. I visit some of the newer outdoor centers also and parking isn't any better, espcially if you want to go to more than one store. They may eventually have the same problem but for now they seem to be doing fine.

Yeah, you're right and Spartan is wrong. Just one look at Penn Square offers plenty of proof how wrong he is. The main reason they're not building enclosed shopping malls any more is simply because the already existing ones like Penn Square and Quail Springs are doing a good job filling in the need for them. The metro market is only so big to support such huge commercial complexes.

With Oscar Rose and South OKC so easily reached from there that's not going to happen.

I know.....but for the life of me I can't think of what they'd use that much space for. Theres already call centers in other malls, a prison is out of the question, Maybe a convention space but with a new convention center in downtown I can't see that either....how about an indoor amusement/theme park with water slides, theatre, restaurants, kidzone. Attach a hotel and make it a giant great wold lodge. The area around Crossroads doesn't help much. Maybe someday Tinker will take it over. I have no idea. Maybe a monument to the indoor mall craze of the 70's. That would be depressing.

I just watched a one hour show on Cox channel 740 called "Mall Mania". It's a very good review of the history, current happenings, and future of malls. It could give local investors some very good ideas.

I just watched a one hour show on Cox channel 740 called "Mall Mania". It's a very good review of the history, current happenings, and future of malls. It could give local investors some very good ideas.

For those people who don't have high definition access, would you please reveal the network instead of the channel?

Unfortunately, it's only on a high defintion channel called HD Theater or HDTHR.

Unfortunately, it's only on a high definition channel called HD Theater or HDTHR.

Thank you. The channel is irrelevant. The NETWORK is what is important. You were probably the only one that knew it was High Definition only.

Are you serious? Why do you have this desire to bring back Crossroads Mall? Many things wrong with that idea. First of all, Crossroads is dead because the location is bad. A better proposal to bring the mall back would be to pick it up and move it to Moore. Even then it would continue to struggle because indoor shopping malls are dinosaurs. No one is building them any more, no one is going to them anymore, and stores are no longer adding locations in indoor shopping malls for the most part. That's probably the #1 shift in city planning trends that has occurred over the last 10 years.

And second of all and more importantly, even if you wanted to bring it back, why? Crossroads disappearing frees up retail demand for downtown retail, and more importantly, for inner southside retail to make a comeback. If you have followed the history of the southside as much as I have, as a southsider myself, you'd know that Capitol Hill and other inner southside strips used to be vibrant retail areas--right up until when Crossroads Mall came. Crossroads sucked the life out of the southside. Now it's gone, now the southside can make a comeback.

And all of those things you proposed--a Medieval Dinner Theatre, a Dave and Busters, a Books a Million, an 18 screen theater (which Crossroads already has, also going to go out of business soon)--why can't these things go some place better than Crossroads? I'm sorry but this is like the worst idea I have ever heard, in my life.

Is that fact, or opinion?

See I have facts from tons of people in the mall. Everyone from the PR lady, to merchants from stores long gone, and none of them said the mall died, because of booby-baby gangbangers, or an overall bad location.

They all said a number of things, and all said the same.

1. The person(s) owning the mall charged too much rent.

2. The merchants asked for the place to be fixed up more to attract customers with a more lively mall... They were either ignored, or flat out told, "no."

With floors from 1974, and the only thing having been beefed up and modernized, was the ceiling of the mall, what did you expect?

I mean Quail was all brown and ugle, until it got its makeover. Now look at the mall. 50's style food court (the mall actually HAS a food court unlike Crossroads,) and even a movie theatre inside.

If Crossroads fixed itself up, you damn well better be sure that place would draw crowds again.

Believe it or not, imposing a curfew doesn't help either, as gangbanger or not, the youth probably had some money to take to the mall to spend.

The location can't be the reason, and isn't according to almost everybody in the mall, because then the mall wouldn't have flourished since 1974, up until around 2003/4.

It was greed that killed the beast. The owners wanted to line their pockets, while not listening to the merchants wishes, that lead to its downfall. You got to stay with the times, but that mall stayed in the 70's/80's, thanks to its look, and people want lively scenery, not dreary browns.

Thank you. The channel is irrelevant. The NETWORK is what is important. You were probably the only one that knew it was High Definition only.

HD Theater is owned by Discovery Networks. Unfortantely, most of the programming is Hi-Def only. Although HD Theater does show many Discovery, TLC and Science Channel shows there is no standard network broadcast for shows like Mall Mania and many others because they are one time shows and not series.

One of my favorites was Mustangs Across America. It was about a group of Mustang enthusiast driving from Las Vegas to Birmingham, AL. They made a stop in Mustang where they attended a city party and chili cook off. The show made many postive notes on Mustang and showed the beautiful landscape of I-40 between OKC and Amarillo.


http://mustangsacrossamerica.com/

Well, what's happening is that Penn Square and Quail Springs is putting Crossroads thru the same thing now as Crossroads did to Shepherd Mall during the 70s and 80s.

Well, what's happening is that Penn Square and Quail Springs is putting Crossroads thru the same thing now as Crossroads did to Shepherd Mall during the 70s and 80s.

No. The thing happening to Crossroads is housing additions that, for the most part, were still in good shape and safe when the mall was built but now border on being slums, gang bangers running off most of the law abiding customers, major construction which closed the area for a couple of years (and will again), and owners that are like the majority of companies in the fact they could care less about you... Just how much they can line their pockets (no major remodeling or expansion).

It's simple, sell the land to a Native American nation and make a Casino out of it.

It's simple, sell the land to a Native American nation and make a Casino out of it.

Its not that simple. While it certainly can be sold to a tribe, for it to be a Casino, the land has to be put into trust (a Federal thing). There are a lot of regulations and not just any tribe could get a casino opened in that location. The way I understand it, there has to be a historical claim to that piece of land by that particular tribe. Looks like that area was unassigned.

The whole land in trust/historical claim is one of the snags the tribe that was originally wanting to open a casino in Bricktown and now near Remington Park/Frontier City is running into. They are the Shawnee tribe (not to be confused with the town of Shawnee and the Casinos owned/operated by the Citizen Potawatomi). The tribe that is trying to get the casino built here, their headquarters "is nearly 200 miles [away]...in far northeastern Oklahoma" (from an opposition letter signed by Senators Inhofe, Coburn, Representative Fallin and Mayor Cornett).

Just to confuse things further, if you can get a non-tribal casino built and then sell it to a tribe, that seems to be OK (see Remington Park and the Chickasaw Nation)

Just to confuse things further, if you can get a non-tribal casino built and then sell it to a tribe, that seems to be OK (see Remington Park and the Chickasaw Nation)

I don't think that particular example has anything to do with the casino at Remington Park being an Indian casino. There is unique legislation about a casino at horese racing track that has nothing to do with who the owner is.

No. The thing happening to Crossroads is housing additions that, for the most part, were still in good shape and safe when the mall was built but now border on being slums, gang bangers running off most of the law abiding customers, major construction which closed the area for a couple of years (and will again), and owners that are like the majority of companies in the fact they could care less about you... Just how much they can line their pockets (no major remodeling or expansion).

Funny, because the last few times I've had to go out there, I don't see these mysterious gangbangers lining the mall.

I don't hear all these stories of mall fights that break out there anymore.

So what's really keeping the mall dead now? Simple... People not willing to put money into renovating it.

Funny, because the last few times I've had to go out there, I don't see these mysterious gangbangers lining the mall.

I don't hear all these stories of mall fights that break out there anymore.

So what's really keeping the mall dead now? Simple... People not willing to put money into renovating it.

And the fact that the mall simply has no viable future as a retail shopping center. Sorry...but it's simply the truth; once a mall is dead, it is practically impossible to bring it back. The chance that Crossroads is an exception to this is practically zero. Hate to say it, but it's simply the way the retail real estate market works.

I think the best idea for Crossroads (and the surrounding community) would be to find a way to reuse it (whether it would be certain buildings or in full) for another use, similar to what has been done with Shepherd Mall. Offices, educational/community uses, churches, etc...or maybe even some residential/retail mixed in with that somehow. If an innovative developer can wait for the right time to buy the property at a dirt-cheap price then market it in the right way once the market picks back up, someone would be making a crapload of money!

It's simple, sell the land to a Native American nation and make a Casino out of it.

This actually is the best possible use for the Crossroads site. The area around it already has crime and undesirable elements. And trailer parks.

lol, so people who you apparently perceive as losers need a casino in their neighborhood. It could make things worse.

So what's really keeping the mall dead now? Simple... People not willing to put money into renovating it.

Also strong competition from Penn Square and Quail Springs. Long gone are the days when Crossroads was the only game in town.

... If an innovative developer can wait for the right time to buy the property at a dirt-cheap price then market it in the right way once the market picks back up, someone would be making a crapload of money!

Appears the chap who purchased the Macy wing of the mall complex got the first half nailed. What he does with it will determine whether he also meets the second half of the above.

This actually is the best possible use for the Crossroads site. The area around it already has crime and undesirable elements. And trailer parks.

And Valley Brook. They could move all the strip clubs into one half of the mall and one or two of the giga-churches into the other, you'd have saints and sinners under the same roof and the money would roll in.

Funny, because the last few times I've had to go out there, I don't see these mysterious gangbangers lining the mall.

I don't hear all these stories of mall fights that break out there anymore.

So what's really keeping the mall dead now? Simple... People not willing to put money into renovating it.

Re-read my post. I gave several reasons. Plus, the mall is all but deserted. Gangbangers WERE and at times STILL ARE in the mall. One proof is the program "Gangland" on Histroy Channel. Even THEY agree gangbangers flooded the mall.

You are wearing blinders... Refusal to accept reality.:poke::fighting2:fighting4

I believe I have a better solution for the Federally owned mall, ( but no money to attempt it myself)
Imagine this, take the big department store spaces, put in a sub floor with hidden plumbing, build Two thousand small apartments in them. rent out the small store spaces to coffee shops, small resteraunts, eye doctors, dentist, health clinic, small clothing and specialty stores that cater to the elderly. Build in a small theater, and things for visiting family members to do. Fence the whole property wtih security and nice walking trail and park. then rent out the apartments to independent elderly people, kind of an assisted living center that encompasses everything a person would need in one little city. Imagine if there were over 2000 apartments at $2000 a month, that would be 4 million a month, then throw in the rental for retail and other monies, It could be profitable over a period of time and most likely, the right group could get the whole property "donated" by the federal government at no cost. THis would be a premier place for the independant aging to move to. Families would come to visit, spend money, etc.... I have never heard of any thing like this at such a large scale. Anyone?

I've not seen nor heard of anything like this, but it sounds appealing and profitable. Of course I'm not in the rental business and with the government regulating every little detail of businesses these days it may not be feasible as they might not be able to keep serial killers etc without being charged with discrimination.

Re-read my post. I gave several reasons. Plus, the mall is all but deserted. Gangbangers WERE and at times STILL ARE in the mall. One proof is the program "Gangland" on Histroy Channel. Even THEY agree gangbangers flooded the mall.

You are wearing blinders... Refusal to accept reality.:poke::fighting2:fighting4

Somehow, I doubt the journalistic integrity of a cable TV show called "Gangland." I was at Crossroads about a month ago and saw more retirees power walking than gangbangers. If it's grandma feels safe enough to exercise there, how bad can it be?