Somebody on here needs to step up and buy the building and rehab it.

[QUOTE=Urban Pioneer;473841]The shape of the building exudes "diner" to me. QUOTE]

That is exactly what I see! It would be great to get some more weekend food options for the district. AA has more potential than any other area of town with the street car coming! I hope we can start to see more buildings fixed up and some new buildings go in with mixed use.

Does anyone remember when Blair's report is supposed to come out?

I think parking lot has a better chance. We need more surface parking in OKC! Where will I park downtown with the Devon building taking up parking and now Sandridge is tearing down a parking garage too!

$5 says Sandridge buys it, tears it down, and the whole section of that block becomes a mixed use project.

Good call.

$5 says Sandridge buys it, tears it down, and the whole section of that block becomes a mixed use project.

Why would they do that?

Why would they do that?

Maybe because they want their employees living close to work or they just love OKC. Or they could do it for the same reason any other developer builds a mixed-use project, to make money. They already own the land, they might as well put it to work for them.

But they don't build stuff. They tear stuff down. You're pulling this hope that they will do a very specific type of development on this very specific location on N Broadway in the heart of A-Alley literally out of thin air.

At this point, labeling them as only tearing things down is pulling a thought from somewhere, but it's not necessarily thin air. I think they could of gone a different route before as well, but they are definitely doing way more than tearing things down, and have announced more on the way.

Might be time to consider some lessons were learned, whether by them, or by those who might have not fully seen where they were always heading in the first instance. I count myself amongst the latter group, and look forward to seeing where they take their little section of DT, and more.

But they don't build stuff. They tear stuff down. You're pulling this hope that they will do a very specific type of development on this very specific location on N Broadway in the heart of A-Alley literally out of thin air.


If you look at the rendering that Pete has posted their are buildings on the lots that SD owns on Broadway. You can say they are just placeholders but they wouldn't put that there unless there were some kind of an idea for a building. Just look at the building that people said was just a placeholder east of the tower and now we have very firm words saying there IS going to be a building there.

The Amenities building will start probably late next year and be done by 2014 and then the building on the east of the campus will start.

I'm saying they're pipe dreams, I know what they're saying....

After the "amenities bldg," who knows??

I'm saying they're pipe dreams, I know what they're saying....

After the "amenities bldg," who knows??

Is it that you are skeptical or just hope they don't so a certain hate SR group can be proven right? I personally have spoken with persons inside the company who have no reason to try to deceive me say that they are way ahead of schedule for adding people and do indeed intend to start a new tower sooner than later. It seems you hate them, but I would think you would be encouraged, at least.

Eh. Automobile Alley also has far less retail presence and history than Bricktown. Chains are coming to Automobile Alley....

I can't believe that Steve was able to slip this teaser by over in the Bricktown discussion and nobody called him out on it.

Come on Steve, please share more details?

What chains are coming to Auto Alley? National chains or local chains?

Has all the retail space in AA has been brought under the control of a single management company?

I can't believe that Steve was able to slip this teaser by over in the Bricktown discussion and nobody called him out on it.

Come on Steve, please share more details?

What chains are coming to Auto Alley? National chains or local chains?

I saw that, almost mentioned it in that thread, and then decided not to because I didn't want to send that thread down an unrelated path. I hope Steve answers.

That could just be a generic blanket teaser statement. With Hideaway a local chain is already there and SB burger joint opening soon, it's officially going to be a local chain too. More than likely we will get a few nationals as well since it is reaching critical mass. What I'd like to see is firm evidence of a national chain, even though guessing so is still good probability.

There is the Jimmy John's located near this area, probably more deep deuce but they are definitely a national chain. I wonder how well their business is doing at that location?

Also has Hideaway met their expectations with good flow of business?

What I'd like to see is a Gap and American apparel, Urban Outfitters. I think these types would do well there.

I saw that, almost mentioned it in that thread, and then decided not to because I didn't want to send that thread down an unrelated path. I hope Steve answers.

I'm really not trying or intended to tease. What I can tell you at this point is there are several chains that are circling Automobile Alley. A couple of them probably would not be popular with the OKC Talk crowd, and to date, it looks they are being rebuffed by the major developers... the other chains, meanwhile, could become a reality or simply fade away depending on what happens next with the economy.

What I'd like to see is a Gap and American apparel, Urban Outfitters. I think these types would do well there.

Agree, especially Urban Outfitters of those three.

Once the northern portion of Deep Deuce into the Flatiron area and towards NE 10 gets more developed with lofts and townhomes there will be even more interest in Broadway as retail/restaurant corridor. While Deep Deuce and Flatiron are more mixed-use the area north of NE 6, east of the tracks and west of 235 will likely be solely residential.

Until all the retail space in AA is brought under a unified property manager you are not going to see any national retail chains.

Here is something to think about (from Suburban Nation).


RETAIL MANAGEMENT
The sad fact is that the newest, most spectacular suburban shopping center would fall within a few months if it were managed haphazardly as the typical main street. In order for Main Street to compete against the mall, it must be run with all the expertise lavished on the mall.

Suburban retailers are predatory by definition. Most new malls, big-box outlets, and other shopping centers are built not to satisfy unmet demand but to steal demand from existing retailers. Since malls survive by undermining other malls (and main streets), they have refined the techniques of merchandising to a science. Mall designers know that, upon entering, people tend to turn right, and walk counterclockwise. They know that visitors will most likely purchase sunglasses if they are near the rest rooms. They know that women's clothing stores will fare badly if placed near the food court. How can Main Street possibly compete? Fortunately, many of the concepts and techniques that mall designers use can be easily adapted for the benefit of the City core:

Centralized Management: While centralized ownership of real estate may be the ideal, as in a mall, a central management agency can be nearly as effective. In its weakest form, this would be nothing more than an interested chamber of commerce. In its strongest form—which may not be necessary—it would be an agency legally empowered to coordinate hours of operation, security, maintenance, landscape, storefront design, and even the location and mix of stores. The following techniques can only be implemented effectively under unified management.

Joint Advertising and Merchandizing: Shoppers are attracted to malls by an advertising strategy that emphasizes the variety of merchandise available at a single location—what experts call a "park-once environment." Inside the mall, directories and "You Are Here" maps help customers find their way. Further incentive to shop is offered through coordinated sales and festival days, as well as concerts, celebrity appearances, and the like. In many ways, Main Street provides a public atmosphere that is much more natural than the mall for festival-oriented marketing. Instead of offering mall events for shoppers, downtown merchants can organize town events for all.

Anchors: Almost every mall gives away locations rent-free to the so-called anchor tenants that will bring shoppers from a distance. Downtowns should also be prepared to offer subsidies—even free leases or land — in order to secure a major retail draw. Many national retailers and cinema chains have "rediscovered downtown," but they may still need enticement. Of course, existing anchors should be handled with great care and, in some cases, given incentives to stay in place, as the cinemas are in Portland. This should not be thought of as socialism for capitalists, or even as a subsidy, but rather as the city operating competitively within the reality of a cutthroat marketplace.

Strategic Relation of Anchors and Parking: All malls place anchor department stores at the extremities and cluster the small stores in the middle. In Miami's Cocowalk, the cinema is located on the third floor, the ticket booth on the ground floor, and dozens of shops and restaurants in between, where they are practically unavoidable to the impulse buyer. Meanwhile, most cities that attempt to revitalize their downtowns with a convention center, Sports arena, or movie theater unthinkingly place all parking immediately adjacent to the site. This strategy robs the City's merchants of potential customers passing by. For this reason, the self-sufficient Astrodomes of the sixties and seventies did nothing for their cities; the promised neighborhood revitalizations never occurred. Any new anchor downtown must be designed to maximize street activity, with parking at least a block away, the exact opposite of what most zoning codes require. Downtowns must be arranged cunningly, with a strategic separation of origins and destinations. The only caveat here is that the gap between anchor and parking must be lined with continuous pedestrian-quality Street frontage, so that the walk is pleasurable.

Proactive Leasing and Retail Mix: When a mall first opens, or when a vacancy occurs, space is not simply leased to the first qualified applicant that comes along. Rather, the management carefully determines what type of store will best contribute to the mall’s retail mix and seeks it out, often offering incentives for relocation. In addition, mall management recognizes that certain stores fare better or worse in proximity to certain other stores, and arranges shops according to a careful merchandising plan. Mutually supportive stores are clustered to form such places as fashion districts and entertainment districts. We've watched retail consultants sit in a closed room for hours on end, painstakingly assembling stores like the pieces of a Chinese puzzle. While this approach may seem unwieldy on Main Street, with its patchwork of ownership interests, an effective merchants' association can monitor the store mix and actively seek the ideal businesses to fill vacancies as they arise.

Dimensions: Whether indoors or out, the best retail street has certain dimensions, related to complex physical and social predilections. Although commercial corridors may stretch uninterrupted for miles in some cities, the most successful shopping streets restrict their length to a reasonable walking distance, usually less than half a mile. Their width is similarly constrained in order to ensure visibility from one side to the other, so that when exiting one store you are looking straight at the display of another. For this reason, malls usually keep their corridors less than fifty feet wide, a dimension that is, of course, easier to achieve in the absence of cars. Since the best main streets have two-way driving, parallel parking, and wide sidewalks, about sixty feet is a workable standard. Sidewalks should be at least twelve feet wide, which is ample enough for passage and for outdoor dining, something the malls cannot provide.

Retail Continuity: The American shopper has an attention span surpassed in brevity only by that of the American adolescent television viewer. Experience suggests that most strolling shoppers will not walk down dead-end streets—thus the need for big stores at the ends of malls. In addition, they will turn around and head back to their cars rather than walk past fifty feet of blank wall. This explains why malls generally do not include post offices: stamp posters are simply too boring to endure. While malls turn down the U.S. Mail, Main Street has to incorporate banks, brokerage houses, travel bureaus, and real estate offices, with their plain walls and boring displays. These must be located so as not to interrupt retail continuity for more than the shortest stretches: either dispersed in small increments, or collected in a harmless location off the main shopping trajectory.

Incubators: Pushcarts serve a purpose in suburban malls, which is to incubate new businesses until they do well enough to afford their own storefront space. The same process can occur on Main Street, supplemented by additional incubators such as live/work units and artists' cooperatives. The Torpedo Factory in Alexandria is one such example of an industrial-loft-turned-arts-incubator that has become a tourist anchor. Often, for such ventures to be successful, fledgling businesses must be allowed to occupy older buildings without upgrading fully to code. Farmers' markets located in old or temporary quarters, such as in West Hollywood or Philadelphia's Reading Terminal, are almost always effective in energizing their downtowns.

All of the above techniques depend to some degree upon managed retail, a concept that causes some to bristle. "Whatever happened to a natural diversity?" they ask. Are there any real places left?' The surprising answer to that question is that a lack of management has proven to be the enemy of diversity. It is why Key West has become an emporium of T-shirt shops, and why the only lunch available on Rodeo Drive for under ten dollars consists of potato chips and a soda. When left alone, retailers tend to repeat easy successes and entire sectors become homogeneous. Variety is achieved not through natural selection but through careful programing. Thanks to management, the main street of Disney’s Celebration provides not only restaurants for four different price ranges but a bar that is required to stay open until the last movie gets out. Even if there are only two customers, martinis are available at midnight. Does this make Celebration any worse, or any less real?

Until all the retail space in AA is brought under a unified property manager you are not going to see any national retail chains.
Not necessarily, Patagonia has a store on Congress in Downtown Austin and there isn't a whole lot of retail in that section of the street in comparison to most retail areas. There are a few that will but for the most part retailers are lemmings.

New sign for Treasures Past:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/303156_10150445068591639_282189211638_10105911_156 0122929_n.jpg

Bummer:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-delays-on-creating-railroad-quiet-zone-blamed-for-death-of-38-million-development/article/3626883

Aggravating.

Very interesting and lots of good information by Steve.

A $38 million investment would have been huge for that area and for OKC in general. The city council needs to take a hard look at how these dollars are being spent and if the quiet zone would be a better investment than the area around the future Central Park.

Just wow...I'm lost for words honestly.

Bummer:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-delays-on-creating-railroad-quiet-zone-blamed-for-death-of-38-million-development/article/3626883

Oh, great... here come all the core to shore haters

Oh, great... here come all the core to shore haters

??

Oh, great... here come all the core to shore haters

I don't think anybody hates the idea of Core to Shore. It's just that some are questioning the allocation of funds to that area instead of to an improvement for Automobile Alley, where development is 15 years ahead of the C2S area.

Oh, great... here come all the core to shore haters

Mick? Is that you? Seriously, Core to Shore is 20 to 30 years away. Why not follow through on something that can be developed now? That is myopic stupidity, but it's just the way we do things in OKC. When we succeed, it's an accident.

I dunno. I can see the other side as well. A lot of development in AA and nearby over the last decade, sans a quiet zone. Perhaps another will step forward that doesn't see a QZ as the must have this one did. And perhaps not.

As for C2S, just when should steps begin for that blighted area if not already, given that there was a massive park pitched to voters in MAPs3, and approved by them. Seems a breech of their decision to not proceed in that area once the vote took place.

Ball ... dropped.

With all the vacant land around downtown why can this project not be build somewhere else? It isn't like there is a shortage of locations. The City owns the streets, how hard can it be to close them. I can do it for $750.

I guess one of the main reasons the developer wanted that location is because of easy access to I-235 AND the streetcar, but there are certainly other empty lots along the proposed streetcar line.

[QUOTE=soonerguru;486377 When we succeed, it's an accident.[/QUOTE]


:congrats:

Incredibly unfortunate. I can't tell you how many times Urban Neighbors approached the city as to a status update on the quiet zone and how many times the board of the neighborhood association told them it was a priority. If I had to hazard a guess as to why this happened, it is because city staff is stretched to thin. It is arguable as to some of their focus as well.

I guess the thing that upsets me about this is that the Urban Neighbors adequately warned them many times that this issue is broadly affecting downtown living viability. They cite Steve Mason's development, but it is not housing. Not a proper comparison.

Will Urban Neighbors be speaking out on this issue?

Bryant seems to think he's an authority on what residents near the El in Chicago are willing to tolerate, but he doesn't even know that there is no horn blown on the route to Wrigley.

While I tolerate and even sometimes like to hear the train horns blowing, there is no question the lack of a quiet zone has negatively impacted home sales in Maywood Park.

betts, if you and others who live downtown want to do a follow-up story with me, email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com. I think it's important folks hear from you guys.

This one seems like a total no-brainer for the city. Here we have private money willing to invest right now in an underdeveloped area of great promise. What's more, in this case, PRIVATE money actually makes the PUBLIC money (Maps - streetcar) MORE effective and valuable. It is a total win-win for everyone. And, the cost seems comparable or less than say the street work we have to do to encourage developments like the outlet mall or for the cost of sound barriers on our expressways. This one is just baffling that the city can't see it.

Thanks to Steve for such a great exposure piece.

Just curious Steve, is this irreversable? Will the project come back to life if the situation changes quickly?

I dunno. I can see the other side as well. A lot of development in AA and nearby over the last decade, sans a quiet zone. Perhaps another will step forward that doesn't see a QZ as the must have this one did. And perhaps not.

As for C2S, just when should steps begin for that blighted area if not already, given that there was a massive park pitched to voters in MAPs3, and approved by them. Seems a breech of their decision to not proceed in that area once the vote took place.
Kevin, the TIF money being spent is for land as mentioned in my story is outside the park site. The city is buying land for the park and has begun building clearance.

Thanks Steve. I misread the paragraph and remembered the targeted for redevelopment language more than the rest. My bad.
But, I also concede I'm not a big fan of quiet zones myself. While I do not live on top of a track, I do live very near tracks which see 26 or more trains daily with four nearby at grade crossings, aka a lot of horns. I'll actually miss it some when it becomes three crossings due to the Robinson underpass project here in Norman. I also grew up not all that far from a track in se ok. I guess the sounds are more like old friends after half a century.

Will Urban Neighbors be speaking out on this issue?

I can't speak for Urban Neighbors. I was term-limited off of the board some time ago. What I can say is that it was an important issue for many years and had it's own subcommittee. I like train horns and grew up near a Union Pacific line myself. However, undeniably it seemed to be huge issue for those who are not acclimated to the noise in considering living downtown.

There is one part in all this that seems strange to me. If I had a $38 million project on the line "stymied" by "recalcitrant city staff", I would personally go see the City Manager or make the issue formally known at a City Council meeting.

The quiet zone is a broad housing issue downtown. Bellanger "giving up" seems to be questionable in the broader context. If indeed the quiet zone was the sole reason for the development not moving forward, then it is indeed an unnecessary loss. However, if it was because of other legitimate reasons, then something else is bound to eventually happen in that area.

It's not Bert Belanger "giving up" - he was just the broker on the deal. It was Gilbert and the Bomasada Group. They are a Houston company that has a choice to make on where they invest their money. And they've decided they're not interested in letting their money sit in OKC. Such choices are made by developers all the time. And if you could see all the documents I saw, yes, it does appear as if the quiet zone was the main issue with this development.

I was criticized by many on here just a few months ago when I was expressing my annoyance that the quiet zone has been delayed and delayed and delayed. It was first identified as a pressing need no later than 2000. It's now 2011. About to be 2012.

This is exactly where OKC's leadership has cost us developments with poor priorities. This exact same thing will happen times a dozen at least by making the convention center a higher priority at the expense of the streetcar project.

When we succeed, it's an accident.

This. We really do exceed expectations a lot in spite of ourselves. As someone who's followed this closely for at least 8-9 years now, I can unequivocally say that success has come OKC's way not as a result of its main leaders, but rather the mid-level bureaucracy who are very competent and dedicated individuals.

This. We really do exceed expectations a lot in spite of ourselves. As someone who's followed this closely for at least 8-9 years now, I can unequivocally say that success has come OKC's way not as a result of its main leaders, but rather the mid-level bureaucracy who are very competent and dedicated individuals.

In all fairness, it takes a combination of vision and execution. Though there are disagreements as to details, we have had plenty of leadership which has made OKC experience a resurgence. Without some bold initiatives we would have continued our downward spiral. But, like all home run hitters, visionaries also tend to strike out more than single hitters. Fortunately we have had both. Problems come when those without vision start thinking they do and when visionaries think that anything they come up with is right and practical.

I'm not going to give an opinion as to whether city staff made the right or wrong decision here. But I will offer up some non-opinion observations:
- City staff has a bigger, more complex workload than I can recall in any of my 16 years covering them (MAPS 3, MAPS for Kids, Project 180, Core to Shore, river redevelopment, battle over water rights, struggle over internet taxation, strained labor relations, oversight of the GOLT program, the neighborhood revitalization program, bond issue projects throughout the city). To understand how such strain impacts operations, one only need look at the original MAPS program in the years immediately after the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
- City staff, particularly upper management, has been cut down to where I can't remember when there were fewer people overseeing all this work. Key, experienced personnel have left in the past year; people like Cathy O'Connor, Jim Thompson, Laura Story and others (including the incredible Mark Carleton, who died of a heart attack just after being promoted to oversee MAPS for Kids).

I take no pleasure in doing these stories in that I know it only adds to the strain of those I admire and respect.

It's not Bert Belanger "giving up" - he was just the broker on the deal.

Good to know. I personally do not know much about the man. Still, as we both believe, city staff is stretched thin for the current workload.

Developers take heed, sometimes you have to go speak at a City Council meeting to be heard by city staff. I do believe that if Bellanger or the developer had communicated with Urban Neighbors as to the timing volatility, board members would have gone to some effort to help the quiet zone issue be exposed at a higher level.

We shouldn't have to do it, but sometimes it is necessary. A $38 million project should not be lost because someone did not sign off on mailing a letter.

Sometimes the bravest thing an elected official can do is to tell constituents "yes, we do need to invest more money in our administrative ranks."

Sometimes the bravest thing an elected official can do is to tell constituents "yes, we do need to invest more money in our administrative ranks."

Trouble is, these days if you aren't on the 'do more with less' bandwagon, you might not remain an elected official for very long. It's short sighted, but that doesn't make it less real.

That's why it's a brave move.

Unfortunately, the "do more with less people" people have taken control of our entire state government. It will take Okies a while to wake up to what is happening -- hopefully before the state is turned into a third world country.

Unfortunately, the "do more with less people" people have taken control of our entire state government. It will take Okies a while to wake up to what is happening -- hopefully before the state is turned into a third world country.

I do not see any evidence of this happening. Currently OK boasts one of the lowest unemployment percentages in the nation.

The Enclave @ the Riverfront in Little Rock, AR by the Bomasada Group:

http://argentadc.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/feature-enclave.jpg


Nice development, too bad we lost out on something similar to this.

However, now that I think about it, why would they want to build a Class A apartment complex between an unused park, dilapidated buildings, a railroad track, and lack of retail? That would've been a bad decision by Bomasada, so I'm kinda glad that it didn't get built there, hopefully this will shift Bomasada's focus to development elsewhere like Midtown or Deep Deuce, both are much more vibrant areas! With that being said, we can't win all developments, plus we have several housing developments going on in the downtown core right now to be thankful for, and I am sure we have bigger and better future developments down the pike, that just need to bide their time....

Probably because they could see where the momentum was going. Good developers see the market before it BEFORE it happens, not after.

The Bomasada location has exceptional interstate access and close proximity to the CBD. It's an excellent location for residential development. I expect that Broadway corridor and also the Oklahoma Avenue corridor to the east and slightly south will end up being highly sought after for large-scale residential development sooner rather than later.

Oh, great... here come all the core to shore haters

I am not core to shore hater, but we seem to keep doing this. At some point, it would be great to see one of districts reach a critical mass. Unfortunately, we have several good districts, but no great ones. I'm not saying this project would have created one, but this kind of shows how spreading yourself thin and wide can hinder reaching a point where major investments in major projects by private investors begin to make sense. Let's not forget core to shore, but it is a bit foolish and very inefficient to sacrifice resources on districts that don't need nearly the investment or time core to shore is going to need to reach a point where it can thrive on its own. AA, Bricktown, Paseo, Mid-Town, Western.... all of these areas would see a much greater immediate return on an investment of $4.2 million dollars by the city than if that same money was put into the starting-from-scratch core to shore plan. It's just a simple matter of evaluating the opportunity cost of spending a dollar in an established or emerging district that has potential investors now over spending that same dollar on an imagined district that we hope someday someone might want to invest $40 million dollars in.

THIS^^^

Once Steve wrote one undeniable fact regarding the OKC Leadership and Planning Community that is now well documented in history. It is that these people never gave up in downtown and that downtown has been an almost constant experiment since early Urban Renewal, perhaps even the bond issue that built City Hall, Civic Center, and the Courthouse in the 40's.

We do seem to however often experiment to our own detriment and there always seems to be "egos" involved. I do think that C2S has merit and that area north of I-40 is almost bound to flourish assuming a continued stable local economy.

However, BDP is right. I wish that some key people would put some focused effort into allowing some of the burgeoning districts to gain critical mass. Deep Deuce is almost there, and it in itself is a "Case Study" of how longs things take, but how fulfilling they can be when "allowed" to fulfill a full-functioning neighborhood form.

Let me sum things up for BDP.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.