sidwalks western ... i like that idea ... but where would we get the money from .............hmmmm

Do you have any creative ideas?

A TIFF district?

Don't think that I haven't thought about the MAPS III sidewalks money... :) But it isn't a proper fit for that project.

Why is it not a good fit for MAPS funds? Is the intention to build sidewalks in less dense neighborhoods?

This is what OKC has always been missing in comparison to Tulsa. Cherry Street, Brookside, Blue Dome, and the Brady District are all vastly superior for walkability and entertainment options. On the large, the have a much better concentration of bars and restaurants than OKC. Everything in OKC is too spread out or in a bad location. I actually think 9th street off Broadway has the best potential in the short term if the south side of the street opened up a bar and maybe a few more shops. The key is that it is such a small area that it only needs a couple nice projects and it could be a cool, walkable place to spend a night...

Bomber, have you seen some of the nicer instances where a national retailer has gone into a setting like this and not done a "stupid box retail area" but really conformed to what the area is like already? You should look into the downtowns of cities like Lawrence and Boulder.

Old Town Pasadena here in the LA area is exactly what AA could be. It's centered on a high-traffic 5-lane street with historic significance (Route 66) and with a highway running parallel.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/115/292832495_070fe825c0.jpg
http://dguides.com/images/losangeles/shopping/old-pasadena.jpg

Old Town Pasadena here in the LA area is exactly what AA could be. It's centered on a high-traffic 5-lane street with historic significance (Route 66) and with a highway running parallel.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/115/292832495_070fe825c0.jpg
http://dguides.com/images/losangeles/shopping/old-pasadena.jpg

I've always heard that after the bombing the Urban Land Institute did a downtown study, and made recommendations that Automobile Alley could be exactly like Old Town Pasadena.

Does anyone know if this is true?

I think AA is much more conducive to retail development than Bricktown because of they type of existing buildings. You need those big storefront windows. I think Old Town Pasadena is perhaps the best example I have seen of what AA could be. It has a good mix of national [upscale] chains and local destination shops and restaurants. It sees tons of traffic both in cars and pedestrians. They have several city-owned (I presume) garages which allow 1-2 hours free parking, then charge after that.


More pictures of Old Town Pasadena:

http://stylecheckupla.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Pasadena-old-town.jpg
http://stylecheckupla.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Pasadena-old-town-shopping-214x300.jpg

Old Pasadena is a perfect example of what I have been saying. Until all or most of Automobile Alley is owned by one entity it will never develop into a retail area. Retailers all want to be next to each other and they want to deal with the same person.

http://www.onecolorado.com/facts.html



One Colorado is the premier location for retail, restaurants, entertainmentand office-use in Old Pasadena.

Situated on one city block in the heart of the district, One Colorado is the project that spurred the redevelopment of Old Pasadena, having attracted Crate & Barrel, J. Crew, Armani A/X, The Gap and Il Fornaio when the rest of the area was still largely vacant (1991).

...

TENANT MIX

Retail Stores: 25
Restaurants: 7
Entertainment: 1
Office Tenants: 12
SIZE

One city block; 275,000 leasable square footage
PARKING

840 adjacent spaces; 6,200 within a 3-block radius

Yeah, but auto a
Lye has two major players, Salyer and Mason. They are good friends and have forward vision for the city, the could easily make it happen.

Steve, will you be able to say soon what restaurant will go into the Packard?

sidwalks western ... i like that idea ... but where would we get the money from .............hmmmm

This already happening over the entire 23rd to I-44 length using GO Bond money approved by voters in 2007. I believe it may start this year. It is almost entirely purposes as a "Walkability" project.

Isn't One Colorado in Pasadena actually a very suburban style "lifestyle center" type mall? If it is the one I think it is, it is an area very much like lower Bricktown would be with the Condos, movie theaters, etc. if it was more fully developed as a mall area. Perhaps that's what could go into the lumber yard. One Colorado isn't historic, but abuts the historic area. It has a nice plaza and low rise shopping. Something I thought this crowd was against.

Isn't One Colorado in Pasadena actually a very suburban style "lifestyle center" type mall? If it is the one I think it is, it is an area very much like lower Bricktown would be with the Condos, movie theaters, etc. if it was more fully developed as a mall area. Perhaps that's what could go into the lumber yard. One Colorado isn't historic, but abuts the historic area. It has a nice plaza and low rise shopping. Something I thought this crowd was against.

One Colorado is not a suburban style 'life style' center. It does have interior walk ways but those are just the old alleys that were turned into pedestrian walkways. There are no surface parking spaces, the buildings are pushed out to the sidewalk, and the buildings create positive interior space. It doesn't get much more 'urban' than that. Height has nothing to do with urban.

But Old Navy? Come on. Bell Isle is how far away? It's also easier to get to, and you parking fanatics would note how much more parking there is at BI. Just like someone else said, you have to have something that isn't available elsewhere in town....otherwise why would someone make the extra trip downtown.

And there in lies the problem. Downtown living is still mostly centered around two groupw. 1 - the upscale folks that shop at Banana Republic, not Old Navy (same company). 2 - the economically depressed. There's an extreme mix of the two in this area, but east downtown it mostly more of the depressed folks....Heritage Hills is mostly a Midtown area on the west side of downtown. With as much time as I spent in the area in college, I can speak from experience from the many friends that lived anywhere from 235 over to 44, from NWXway down to 5th. So in order for you to have retail, you also have to have something to draw from locally. No one is going to build basing their profit on people driving from all over town to come there if they are a chain with stores elsewhere in town. For a chain like Old Navy, they don't get anything at all out of it except higher rent, lower foot traffic, and low sales.

As said, retail wants to be near retail. HOWEVER, that does not mean that retail is exclusive to nation brands. We could just as easily have a unique shopping district in OKC (and not have to copy some other town that ISN'T OKC) by having our local names out there on Broadway. Hideaway is a perfect example of that. We've got art galleries, banks, office space, restaurants are slowly developing, we just need to complete the picture. Something as simple as a Children's Place (as far as I know, the MWC one is the only one in town) could be a major item for them....small footprint store, but with high flow. And independatly sustainable because of the demographic. That's the kind of retail we should be going after. There are several stores like Children's Place in town that are locally owned. Just PLEASE don't put something weird like "Urban Cowgirl" in there. That's just what we need, another failed concept weird "upscale" store.

I was just looking at all the different property owners in Auto Alley and I don't think retail wise that it will ever be much more than it is right now. The streetcar is going to help some but it is going to take a lot of people living near by to support local retailers. National chains or recognized brands are never going to locate there. If you prefer that, that's cool, but you are going to be waiting a long long time. After 20 years of trying to lure retail how many retailers are there? It would be much better if they focused on professional and business services.

Kerry, I think your multiple property owners/managers theory isnt exactly what is holding things up. Granted it would help having one leasing group to go through but thats assuming we could attract the Gap, Jos A Banks, or Ann Taylor types...which isnt happening right now. We will see more retail eventually, just going to take several hundred more living units. It also has to happen organically. It will be up to local and independent retailers to locate there and build a strong retail base. Then you might see national retailers take notice and start to look at Auto Alley. Its going to be a slow process but I do see AA eventually being the retail hot spot for downtown. I mean, where else would it be? I cant think of a better spot than AA.

I don't even particularly care about national retail on AA. What's wrong with local shops? I go to Western to shop, not to Belle Isle, because I like the smaller locally owned shops. A lot of other people do too. When I go to a city to visit, I want to shop in unique stores and for unique items. If I want to shop at Ann Taylor, I go to the mall and I go here, not in Chicago. I've lived here long enough to see Western evolve, and I think AA will too, but hopefully the way Western, 9th St. and Midtown have.

I think the streetcar will significantly improve the idea of shops opening in Auto Alley. It's an urban corridor, and if you add easy options to bring people in without using a car. You will have a much better shot selling these spaces to retailers and restaurants.

I don't even particularly care about national retail on AA. What's wrong with local shops? I go to Western to shop, not to Belle Isle, because I like the smaller locally owned shops. A lot of other people do too. When I go to a city to visit, I want to shop in unique stores and for unique items. If I want to shop at Ann Taylor, I go to the mall and I go here, not in Chicago. I've lived here long enough to see Western evolve, and I think AA will too, but hopefully the way Western, 9th St. and Midtown have.

Nothing is wrong with local shops but the fact of the matter is that you wont have a strong and vibrant retail area with only local shops. You have to have some national, recognizable retailers in there. But if AA can create a strong local retail base then you might attract some nationals and then you will create a good retail street.
Also, Im not comparing AA to a Belle Isle. Ideally AA would get Penn Square type stores.

This is where all the national retail decisions are made. A street with 20 different property owners doesn't have a chance.

http://www.icsc.org/2011SC/

Go to the Exhibitor list and ask yourself how AA is ever going to reach that group.

Nothing is wrong with local shops but the fact of the matter is that you wont have a strong and vibrant retail area with only local shops. You have to have some national, recognizable retailers in there. But if AA can create a strong local retail base then you might attract some nationals and then you will create a good retail street.
Also, Im not comparing AA to a Belle Isle. Ideally AA would get Penn Square type stores.

Seriously? What I think is that if we want Penn Square type stores, we need a developer to build an outdoor mall in or near downtown. Places that would work would include the Cotton Gin area, the steelyard east of Bricktown or perhaps in or west of Core to Shore. It has to happen from scratch, because we don't have the space anywhere on AA. The Bob Howard site would have been a wonderful place to locate a few anchor retail stores, if such stores even have any interest in downtown OKC. Now, if you want national retailers in a place like AA, you could try to attract an Urban Outfitters, an American Apparel. The closest think I can think of to AA is someplace like Bucktown in Chicago. They have a few national retailers, Free People (a store in the Anthro/Urban group), Cynthia Rowley, Joe's Jeans, Intermix, Ralph Lauren. But, mostly they have unique stores that are not national chains or the type of chains you see in every mall. It would be amazing if we could develop retail like that in the area, but we're not getting Neiman Marcus, Barneys, Saks or Bergdorfs. We're not even getting Nordstrom, Dillards, Coach or Banana Republic, and personally I don't want them. People will travel for unique. They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall, nor should we want the mall stores in that location, IMO.

The vacant parcels of land along Broadway between 11th and 16th on the east side could be good for the new retail / mixed use developments. Heritage Hills / Mesta Park to the west, possible streetcar access at 13th and Broadway, good highway visibility, reaches midtown-cbd-deep deuce areas, etc.

I don't guess the Dolese family wants to become developers? They are the owners of the large land parcels between 13th - 16th.

They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall...

People travel to the mall all the time.

This is where all the national retail decisions are made. A street with 20 different property owners doesn't have a chance.

http://www.icsc.org/2011SC/

Go to the Exhibitor list and ask yourself how AA is ever going to reach that group.
It takes going to Vegas and talking to these guys. Ive been to ICSC, anyone can talk to these reps and if you have a desirable spot, even if its just one building, they will listen. Ever shopped on M St. in Georgetown? Do you think each side of the street for several blocks is owned by the same person? Obviously not, over time it slowly grew as a retail hotspot along a street similar to Broadway. As I said, first we have to build up a strong local independent retail base on AA before any of this will happen.


Seriously? What I think is that if we want Penn Square type stores, we need a developer to build an outdoor mall in or near downtown. Places that would work would include the Cotton Gin area, the steelyard east of Bricktown or perhaps in or west of Core to Shore. It has to happen from scratch, because we don't have the space anywhere on AA. The Bob Howard site would have been a wonderful place to locate a few anchor retail stores, if such stores even have any interest in downtown OKC. Now, if you want national retailers in a place like AA, you could try to attract an Urban Outfitters, an American Apparel. The closest think I can think of to AA is someplace like Bucktown in Chicago. They have a few national retailers, Free People (a store in the Anthro/Urban group), Cynthia Rowley, Joe's Jeans, Intermix, Ralph Lauren. But, mostly they have unique stores that are not national chains or the type of chains you see in every mall. It would be amazing if we could develop retail like that in the area, but we're not getting Neiman Marcus, Barneys, Saks or Bergdorfs. We're not even getting Nordstrom, Dillards, Coach or Banana Republic, and personally I don't want them. People will travel for unique. They won't travel for the same things they can get at the mall, nor should we want the mall stores in that location, IMO.

First, I know we wont get a department store in AA. Secondly, there is plenty of space along AA for non department store retail. Third, yes, we do need Penn Square type stores. It doesnt have to be ones already located in Penn Square but AA will need some mall-type stores if its wants to be a viable retail street. Local, unique stores will only go so far but they will be needed early on to create the retail atmosphere and prove to other retailers that AA is a strong retail area. Then AA will attract attention from nationals, which will be essential to AA actually growing into a cool retail street. Also, there are only so many unique shops, its unrealistic to expect that everything on AA be the only location of its kind in OKC. Thats why we also need more residents DT before AA develops. In summary, local and unique is needed but it wont finish the job.

Like I mentioned above, think M St in Georgetown. Its going to have to happen this way because we are not seeing a large shopping center being built downtown anytime soon.

Like I said onthestrip, if you want to wait 25 years until there are 15,000 living within blocks of Autmobile Alley then by all means wait. You won't see local retail until then.

I checked out M Street - and low and behold, the catalyst was a large retail development owned by one company.
http://www.shopsatgeorgetownpark.com/stores.aspx

I found this interesting about The Shops at Georgetown Park.

http://www.washingtonflyer.com/departments/dc-shopping/rebirth-shops-georgetown-park



Out of the 50-plus stores in the mall, the majority of them—such as the three the Angels own—are local D.C. retailers amid the larger chain stores on bustling M Street and off of Wisconsin Avenue.



While there are locally owned shops along the street, here is a list of national brands:

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/53a3f/b975c/c/

Banana Republic (3200 M Street)
Coach (3259 M Street)
Diesel (1249 Wisconsin Avenue)
French Connection (1229 Wisconsin Avenue)
Gap (1258 Wisconsin Avenue)
JCrew (3222 M Street)
Kenneth Cole (1259 Wisconsin Avenue)
Ralph Lauren (1249 Wisconsin Avenue)
Steve Madden (3109 M Street)
Urban Outfitters (3111 M Street)
Club Monaco (3235 M Street)
Sephora (3065 M Street)
Pottery Barn (3077 M Street)
BCBG (3210 M Street)
Zara (1234 Wisconsin Avenue)
Barnes and Noble (3040 M Street)
Anthropolgie (3222 M Street)
Artefacto (3333 M Street)
Barney's (3040 M Street)
Blue Mercury (3059 M Street)
MAC (3067 M Street)
Kate Spade (3061 M Street)
Lacoste (3146 M Street)
Christian Bernard (3222 M Street)
Mexx (3229 M Street)
Godiva Chocolatier (3222 M Street)
Niccolo (3222 M Street)
Lush (3066 M Street)

The City has to find a way to unify ownership so a retail center can be established. Any plan that doesn't do that is wasting our time and resources. We had a chance to do this with lower Bricktown but the City fumbled (which is what you would expect to happen the first time you get the ball in a big game).

I disagree. Again, if someone wants to build an outdoor mall downtown, we can unify ownership there. But, a really cool street develops organically, just like housing in older cities. The street goes through a down in the mouth phase (done that), followed by a funky phase (sort of doing that). As the whole area becomes "cool" again, nicer retailers slowly move in and once you've got a few, the whole thing mushrooms. And it hopefully mushrooms primarily with cool local boutiques. Again, the last store I'm going to walk in when I'm visting a city is a GAP, followed closely by every store my mall has. Out of the ones listed above, I'd go to Kate Spade, Lacoste, Kenneth Cole, Mexx and French Connection. The other ones are....yawn....

One Colorado is not a suburban style 'life style' center. It does have interior walk ways but those are just the old alleys that were turned into pedestrian walkways. There are no surface parking spaces, the buildings are pushed out to the sidewalk, and the buildings create positive interior space. It doesn't get much more 'urban' than that. Height has nothing to do with urban.

Sorry, this is pretty much what I remember of One Colorado...a pretty suburban style mall with a big plaza next to a 4 story condo building. It is near the street though. It looks pretty much like a lot of malls in California.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hercwad/2829635177/lightbox/

That isn't One Colorado but it is real close (across the street and on the next block). This is Paseo Colorado. I took a look at the tenant list and it is almost all national chains. This just further proves my point. All these shopping districts that people think are cool and unique are developed by one or two larger developers with national chains. Any local retail is attracted by the foot traffic generated by the national chains.

This seems to be how the model works. OKC just needs to find a way to consolidate property ownership. Maybe Core 2 Shore will do that. I’ll have to look at land ownership along the new boulevard. I really hope the Ford site is not selected for the new CC because it is big enough to house One Colorado AND Paseo California.

http://www.paseocoloradopasadena.com/

http://www.onecolorado.com/main.php

I will say there is a plethora of good restaurants in the area there, from local to national. Actually not a big stretch to think of AA to mid-town being like the old Pasadena area.

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

Man, you're always such a downer.

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

We aren't talking about a mall in the traditional sense. We are talking about the mall concept, but removing the roof and placing the stores on the street. Also, no 20 acre parking lots.

Bomber, you have to understand the concept of sustainability better. It's an academic tool that can help people plan for something to last longer and not meet the same limited fate of other real estate ventures from the last half century. It's not as easy as being opposed to everything new and being cranky to concepts old and new alike.

Tell us what you're for. I would also encourage you to learn more about concepts such as sustainability that can help make a real estate venture actually last longer than 30 years prime. That's what Oklahoma needs more of. We can make things work for the long haul, we can build a great city, we just have to embrace a different development philosophy than the broken ones from the past.

Yeah that's just what we need, another mall....NOT. Remember how 1 has closed, 1 turned to office, 1 is about to close.....etc.

You know what I think is a good comparison? Chicago's north side north of the pier. It's an old area that has turned to a hip urban area for more than just upscale stiff shirts. The area has a mix of some chain places like Walgreens or whatever, but it's also HUGELY pedestrian because of when/how it was built (turn of century). The entire area is mixed use from the ground up...and guess what. It's not only retail on the ground floor...people actually use the upper floors (what a concept). So the chains you find there, ARE NOT predominently retailers, they are service oriented like Walgreens. Pharmacy, grocery, etc. You'll find things like the Blue Man Group's theater, lots of restaurants, and people EVERYWHERE. It's a fully developed environment that didn't require only upscale consumers exist there. It's classic urban living without a tower. That area is a great example of what CAN be in an area. Of course Chicago has a density and history that allowed that to develop...but it also saw a revitilization of the area so it didn't turn to crap like downtown OKC did.

Are you talking about the area around the university? Otherwise, north along the shore is mondo expensive. Further west is mixed. And, Michigan Ave. provides all the upscale shopping. Scale and circumstances are totally different. The younger and more cost concious are around the old Donnely area and West of downtown. But the dynamics of having 5 million people in the immediate neighborhoods is a little different than here to. Chicago just has lots more of everything.

Spartan - what so we should just push for everything to involve national chains rather than having a local flavor because they MIGHT have more staying power? Sorry, I don't buy it. You guys keep wanting examples, and I keep giving them. Check out 5th St. in Austin. How many big box stores are in there? For that matter, freaking Campus Corner...hello! And don't give me any crap about population density. AA is in the CBD and once the trolly is in, it will be even easier to get around. Plus, you can WALK from one end of downtown to the other in less than 15 minutes....i've done it several times....actually even from the Santa Fe garage over to the art musem. Why? For the hell of it to see how long it would take in the middle of the day on a weekday.

And don't preach to us whle you're still in school bud. Whatever definition you're learning this week doesn't give you the experience to "teach" everyone on your opinions. You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet. :)

Rover - no I'm not talking about near Michigan Ave or the university. Think Clark and Belmont...near the Belmont Harbor. But really, that's just a slice of that entire side of town. They have a much higher density and have had another 100 years of people living there than us, but the point is still there. That area could have easily blighted itself out of existence like much of St. Louis.

You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet.

Let me just say this about that comment; that was pretty funny. With your permission Bomber I would like to use that in the future on some people I work with.

Okay - now back to the debate.

Campus Corner - how much retail is on Campus Corner? When I went to OU the only retail was Harolds and I think it is closed now.

on edit - it seems Campus Corner has done pretty good on the retail side. I guess having a University across the street with 25,000 students and 3,000 employees will help retail.

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.

Let me just say this about that comment; that was pretty funny. With your permission Bomber I would like to use that in the future on some people I work with.

Okay - now back to the debate.

Campus Corner - how much retail is on Campus Corner? When I went to OU the only retail was Harolds and I think it is closed now.

on edit - it seems Campus Corner has done pretty good on the retail side. I guess having a University across the street with 25,000 students and 3,000 employees will help retail.

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.



Yes, Campus Corner is prob. around 90% leased up. It has a healthy mix of clothing stores, bars, restaurants, flower shop, nice computer store, etc. It's has made a huge turnaround from before.

5th St - How much retail is on 5th Street? I have never been there but I thought it was mostly bars, clubs, and restaurants.
Sixth Street is one of the big bar strips, it is one way westbound from I-35 to Mopac. Fifth Street has scattered retail along it clustered from Mopac to just east of Lamar. Whole Foods sits between Fifth and Sixth on Lamar, there is an Office Max in the area to the south with some retail in the ground floor of the new apartment buildings in the area. REI, Antropologie and Book People are in the former Whole Foods center to the north of WF and more retail extending up and down Lamar. The other main retail district downtown is Second Street further east and the Red River District just north of there is another club area. There are also other areas of downtown that have a retail store or two like Congress. You also have a bunch of retail just south of downtown on South Congress (SoCo) and South Lamar (SoLa).

bluedog - thanks for the info. You mentioned REI, Anthropolgie, Office Max, and Whole Foods. Would you so most of the retail is national chains? Looking around on Google Earth Street View at the areas you mentioned it looks like lots of national chains with a few local place tossed into the mix.

There is a mix of national and locals, I just listed the larger ones because I really don't know the names of most of the stores down there. Whole Foods is "local" to Austin as is Whole Earth Provision Company which is a bit north of that area on Lamar. There is also Waterloo Records across from the REI/Book People location which is a local, I would say overall it is about a 70/30 local to national mix. Most of the locals outside of the bigger locals are small boutique type stores, Sixth and Lamar is kind of the Alpha Corner in downtown shopping, hence the reason why some of the nationals have been attracted to it. There are also quite a few smaller national stores like Design Within Reach mixed in with some locals in the Second Street district which was developed a few years later.

The main fact is property owners prefer national chains, they are willing to pay more rent for premium locations or boutique spaces. We have had some locals chased to other areas of town because of rents going up on them with the influx of national boutique stores. Terra Toys moved out of the SoCo strip to North Austin (mid-north Austin now) because their rent was doubled. There has been many articles years ago about this.

I believe that info made my arguement for me. I don't see a huge national presense in those areas....mostly local.

Cough Cough.

I'm sure some of you are aware of this project already as one of the various AHMM projects in the works in the city. But I'd like some more info; does anyone know if this particular project is reality? I would think so, seeing the Client is Midtown Renaissance. Exciting? I think so. This is quality work and residental units! Right on Broadway! I hope the building across the street gets turned into housing as well.

From the AHMM Website (http://www.ahmm.co.uk/projectDetails/91/1100-N-Broadway):

Project Details
Completion: 2012
Clients: Midtown Renaissance

The project involves the restoration and modification of a 2-storey brick 1920s warehouse building on Oklahoma City’s Automobile Alley, 1100 N Broadway. Originally an automobile showroom, with some façade alterations accrued over the subsequent years through various commercial and storage uses, the work forms the second phase of the building’s refurbishment. This phase of work converts the second floor from automobile storage to 8 residential units, while introducing new retail along the prime 1100 N Broadway facade, car parking and a residential entrance at first floor.


http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E30D0 1C3062B518B614/09195_Image_01.jpg

http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E30DF 9BC4FD44DB8A2A/09195_Image_02.jpg

http://www.ahmm.co.uk/resources/res.aspx?p=/FCF175F18A83EC9F832D303E3393C083C234259939195E3088 1759821AC78D14/09195_Image_03.jpg

New renderings of the Bindery project as well:

829826827828

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

On AHMM's website (http://www.ahmm.co.uk/projectDetails/92/Jesus-Saves) it says "Completion:2011". I would imagine it has a similar status as the Flatiron project (http://www.ahmm.co.uk/projectDetails/79/Maywood-Flatiron), in that it is proceeding slowly, but is certainly intended to come to fruition.


Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

Across from the substation on the south side of 10th street. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=35.478023,-97.510722&spn=0.001765,0.013733&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.478062,-97.510725&panoid=OVjxKHeJM0JwtAs5jxwrEg&cbp=12,189.17,,0,-13.44

I'm going to quote myself, the post that prompted this reply, for emphasis:


Bomber, you have to understand the concept of sustainability better. It's an academic tool that can help people plan for something to last longer and not meet the same limited fate of other real estate ventures from the last half century. It's not as easy as being opposed to everything new and being cranky to concepts old and new alike.

Tell us what you're for. I would also encourage you to learn more about concepts such as sustainability that can help make a real estate venture actually last longer than 30 years prime. That's what Oklahoma needs more of. We can make things work for the long haul, we can build a great city, we just have to embrace a different development philosophy than the broken ones from the past.


Spartan - what so we should just push for everything to involve national chains rather than having a local flavor because they MIGHT have more staying power? Sorry, I don't buy it. You guys keep wanting examples, and I keep giving them. Check out 5th St. in Austin. How many big box stores are in there? For that matter, freaking Campus Corner...hello! And don't give me any crap about population density. AA is in the CBD and once the trolly is in, it will be even easier to get around. Plus, you can WALK from one end of downtown to the other in less than 15 minutes....i've done it several times....actually even from the Santa Fe garage over to the art musem. Why? For the hell of it to see how long it would take in the middle of the day on a weekday.

And don't preach to us whle you're still in school bud. Whatever definition you're learning this week doesn't give you the experience to "teach" everyone on your opinions. You aren't even old enough yourself to be considered a "sustainable" project yet. :)

Bomber, what is your experience then, on all of these matters? I'm curious where you're coming from, because you've never put together a coherent sentence in all the years I've been reading your posts, and furthermore, I can always just vaguely tell what you mean. For instance, it's 6th Street, not 5th Street in Austin. Also, we're not doing a "trolly" in OKC, and I actually wince when I see it called that.

And most importantly, all I suggested was that you consider the concept of sustainability more than you do. You don't consider things, let alone actual concepts. What does your above rant have to do with sustainability? That's what I suggested you consider. Why so cranky? That, I do not understand. I've gone out of my way to not "lord" my educated perspective over other people on this forum, but you make it hard sometimes.

I'm too young to be a sustainable project myself? What does that even mean? Do you even know what sustainability means? I don't even understand your jokes, just as I don't understand your "facts." They're always about one block off or so...

You are incredulous. I have a long-standing habit of ignoring most people that make an issue out of me being in my 20s, or that I first became active on forums when I was like 13, but you're really bringing it out of me right now because you're impossible to take seriously. All you do is bitch. You have no logistical, academic, theoretical, or even physical experience with the urbane. I remember discussions about Uptown that you'd used to ruin because all you can talk about is how much you hate dealing with the slow drivers on 23rd Street.

You're way out of it in this discussion as well. Nobody is debating you. We would all love to see more local retail over chains. No, none of us are begging Old Navy to come to downtown, don't worry. We've all been frustrated about the state of downtown retail for years. It turns out there are reasons why it is difficult to develop a retail scene. And by the way, being with a mile isn't not going to assist in developing a critical mass of retail. Retail relies on being much closer than that. Even in the suburbs, which you clearly understand more than downtown, you never see 89th and Western marketed as "walking distance" to I-240 and Western, and yes that's only a mile on the same street. That's just the way it is, and yes, downtown is a region that is more than a square mile large. It's just a very dense square mile where every street has some focus on it.


I believe that info made my arguement for me. I don't see a huge national presense in those areas....mostly local.

Cough Cough.

WHAT POINT??? What are you arguing? Who is arguing against you? What are you smoking, as well?? Right now I see you trying to draw attention to some non-existent argument (stating the obvious, local would be cool) that you're trying to make by pissing all over others and pretending to disagree with everything presented in this thread, including cold-hard facts, when in fact you have no f'ing clue what you are talking about. Please let the knowledgeable people go back to discussing...

P.S. It's "argument" and "presence" ... spelling, learn it.

P.P.S. Have you ever even been to the retail area on 6th Street? It's quite isolated from the main hotspot area of 6th Street, which is way on the other side of downtown across Congress. This is actually west of Lamar mostly. It's a very compact area that is all within 1, 2 blocks of the other shops. In fact, REI and BookPeople are even in the same building, which is right across from the most glorious Whole Foods ever. If anything it goes against your irrelevant point that you can walk all of downtown in 15 minutes, somehow pertaining to retail development?? And are you really suggesting OKC could possibly emulate Austin's prevalence of local establishments? It's a cultural thing. Please, be my guest, start a "Keep OKC Weird" campaign or come up with an even better slogan of your own, if you're so witty, eh? But keep in mind that OKC is the city that Walmart formerly used as its official "test market" for new supercenters. Okies desperately need to be weened off their chains...by the way, don't you shop for groceries at Walmart or something?

Is the Bindery a conceptual drawing or is this actually going to happen?

Well, those are more advanced renderings than they previously had up on their website for the Bindery...I don't know how relevant that is or not though.

Where is the Bindery project going (address)?

The bindery is an existing building on the SW corner of 10th and Oklahoma. It is a remodel/ addition.

(Everything he wrote)


http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3357/bullseyea.jpg

Some of you get so obsessed over an internet discussion board. This stuff is top notch entertainment.

Some of you get so obsessed over an internet discussion board. This stuff is top notch entertainment.

If you think this is good - just wait for the movie.

BTW - REI is a national chain. They are in 30 states.

If you think this is good - just wait for the movie.

BTW - REI is a national chain. They are in 30 states.

Kerry, If I read Nick right he was writing about how chains and local shops can co-exist even in the same building and then there's even a Whole Foods across the street. He was responding to the bomber guy who said that there weren't chains on Sixth Street.

Kerry, If I read Nick right he was writing about how chains and local shops can co-exist even in the same building and then there's even a Whole Foods across the street. He was responding to the bomber guy who said that there weren't chains on Sixth Street.

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-development-under-way-in-lawton/article/3556081

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-development-under-way-in-lawton/article/3556081

I agree with you completely. I only posted what I did because you posted that REI was a national store in 30 states. I thought you wrote that because you read Nick's post as not knowing that REI was a national chain.

Impressive plans in Lawton, btw.

Yes I know. That works in Austin because they have 50,000 students living 10 blocks away and who know how many thousands of downtown residents. OKC can wait for rooftops to drive retail but we will have to wait 20 or 30 more years. If we want downtown retail (on any kind of meaningful level) while most of us are still alive we are going to have to do it with national chains in a single owner shopping district.

I don't know if you have seen the news about the Lawton Town Center today but they are breaking ground on a downtown shopping center that will have up to 50 national chains. I am sure they will also attract some local retail but there is no mistake that national chains are going to drive it. They are even talking about connecting the new downtown shopping center to Ft Sill via a streetcar.

http://newsok.com/major-retail-development-under-way-in-lawton/article/3556081

Kohl's, Famous Footwear, Dress Barn, Petco....OKC needs to run away screaming at the thought of any of these national retailers anywhere near downtown. This will end up being and looking like another Belle Isle, I'm guessing. The kind of money per s.f. retailers like this want to spend is not going to create anything we want to put up or emulate.

If someone wants to build an open air shopping mall with stores like Penn Square over east of Bricktown, in the Cotton Gin location or off in a corner of Core to Shore, I'd be OK with it. If a store like Nordstrom or Saks wanted to build a flagship type of store on Reno I'd be excited about it. But, nothing remotely like what I am sure will be built in Lawton.

This will end up being and looking like another Belle Isle, I'm guessing. The kind of money per s.f. retailers like this want to spend is not going to create anything we want to put up or emulate.


What I have seen so far is very urban and blows away anything I have seen proposed in OKC for at least the last 10 years. Stores pushed out the sidewalk and outdoor seating.


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_q2wi6_5BSM8/TLyAgfxQAqI/AAAAAAAAAsY/R782p3uN6uc/s512/Perspective%20drawing%20looking%20east%20along%20C olumbia_without%20Koh%27ls.jpg

I think the point is that Lawton has 120,000 people. OKC has more than ten times that.

However, this downtown Lawton project is nothing like Belle Isle. This is a good start for them with downtown revitalization in general, and will go a long ways toward their community retail needs also (recovering sales taxes lost to nearby Wichita Falls).

I like the location, and the concept is good. My point is that the rents retailers like these will be willing to pay risk this being one of those projects that looks good on paper and not so much in reality. My point, since were on the AA thread and not the Lawton thread is that we need to avoid settling for these types of "national chains" like the plague.

Spartan - blah blah blah. If you don't like me, that's ok. It's not required. We don't have to agree either. That's the beauty of a forum. I'm shocked people have different opinions in the world (sarcasm).

By the way, i no more need to explain my experience than you do. And if only professionals in every field were allowed to comment on each topic here, you and I both know that neither of us would be commenting as much as we do. This forum is where the community comes to discuss topics, which we do. I don't expect you to agree with everything I say, nor do I really care. You have your opinion on how certain things work, i have mine. Personally, I don't pay as much attention to the folks that plaster on every single thread every day, and generally the closer to the 18-19 y/o age, the less I pay attention. Only because they have yet to experience enough of how things work. That's not a comment to you though...i believe you're older than that, if I remember correctly.

But leave the personaly attacks at home. I flung the mud after it got thrown at me. But I'm able to turn around and get back to the discussion at hand and leave personality issues behind. Can you say the same?

It also appears that the retail that is going in the AA area follows what I was purporting. If we could get the CoC to get their project off the ground, it could serve as a great "anchor" in the area. There are so many awesome buildings in that area all the way to 235. The retail for

I know I'll catch some flack for this, but wouldn't a small grocer work great for 1100? And if we're trying to attract more residential to the area, a gas station wouldn't hurt either. Doesn't have to be a large OnCue...just a couple pumps...heck doesn't even have to be on a corner. That's one thing that always bugs me when Im in the CBD; how far you have to go to get to fuel and food. And the fuel is often in the less than pleasant areas.