That's one of the most insightful posts I have ever read here. Thanks!

I know that a lot of people won't read dismayed's post because it's long and the paragraphs are huge, but I would like to challenge everyone to read that and take it to heart. It's a very realistic account on what can be done to build OKC's economy up.

Dismayed's post was outstanding. The Daily Oklahoman should consider printing it as an op-Ed.

My son was born in San Antonio,my secret is out.
And he has been fascinated since a young person, by the secessionist talk, but also the fact Texas can separate itself into additional 5 states (?), and each one can secede as well.

It's an urban legend that Texas has the right to secede written into the document that annexed it to the US.

It does have the right to split into "as many as four additional states" written into that document. This has its roots in the fact that part of Texas extended north of the Free State/Slave State line determined by the Missouri Compromise.

Rick

It's an urban legend that Texas has the right to secede written into the document that annexed it to the US.

It does have the right to split into "as many as four additional states" written into that document. This has its roots in the fact that part of Texas extended north of the Free State/Slave State line determined by the Missouri Compromise.

Rick
Texans never let reality get in the way of a good theory....

I can't help myself, I'm going to have to comment on this thread. I'd like to make some observations from someone who is on the other side of the table... that is, someone who works for one of the largest and wealthiest companies on the planet and often tries to hire college new hires.

I will say right off the bat that right to work is complete misdirection for the vast majority of this discussion. Take a look at the 2000 census... 75% or greater of the US population is now working in services... blue collar workers, the folks who actually unionize, are a tiny minority now. The influence of unions will be dead and buried within 25 years. It just doesn't matter, especially when you're a company that hires white collar people.

State income taxes... we don't care. Don't care! I can tell you exactly why we're here. Because of customer relationships, networking, and a decent sized pool of competitors that we can cannibalize from. This is really the key. Re-read this paragraph. All of the stuff that you guys have mentioned in this thread are nothing but red-herrings. The only way to get a company to move, stay, or grow here is appeal to it on it's #1 pocketbook issues... which are customer base, employee base, and supplier/vendor networking.

You want to attract more companies to OKC? For the love of God make more improvements to Will Rogers. I don't mean minor improvements, I mean do whatever it takes to get non-stop direct flights out of OKC to every major airport in the country. Pass a MAPS for WRWA and throw a $100 million at it. I am totally serious. You guys have no idea how hard it is to get corporate travelers to move to a non-hub city.

Want to get more companies to open up shop here? A lot of us hate bureaucracy more than taxes. Depending on industry Oklahoma is really quite the maze of laws and regulations when it comes to the specifics of your industry or even building your freaking building. And yet we still end up with structures that look cheap and have no landscaping. It's just amazing. I seriously know business managers who have swarn never to open another business in certain central Oklahoma cities because of it. We need to work on this.

The reason I mention all of the above is because if you want to attract college grads you need good jobs here, which means you need good businesses. The city really needs to focus on these types of things.

As far as attracting grads... well it's really quite simple. Offer salaries that are competitive on the national level. It blows my mind that so many companies have such low salaries here. A big reason for this is that so many companies here are small and medium sized companies... so again this goes back to the above statements about attracting large companies. The thing that small companies don't realize is that higher-paid grads are so much more productive because it's so much more competitive at that level. For example ever seen that scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker breaks a pool stick in half, throws it on the floor, and tells two henchmen that he only has room for one more on his staff and to make it quick... LOL... it's kind of like that. If you're waving big bucks around you are going to get very good people applying from all over the place. Good people means better business which translates into higher profits. Having set in on many interviews before it is clear as day that this is the case.

Next, I think you guys are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking how do we keep our kids from leaving this state, we really should be asking how can we get kids from other states that are here for college interested in permanently moving to Oklahoma. To be blunt no one wants to move here, so you have to offer them more money or at least be competitive with wherever they're coming from. Competitive doesn't necessarily have to mean salary.

The reason this is important is because it goes back to the networking comment I made. If a college grad has lots of his or her friends moving to this state, friends from college sticking around, or at least people in their own field here they can relate to, that is going to help nudge them in our direction.

Part of what needs to be done is companies need to spend some budget on recruiting and internship programs. They need to make their presence known at local colleges and universities... it is amazing to me how many people I talk to on a daily basis who don't even know that the company I work for has offices here. Not enough companies are doing this, so that means the city and state need to enact incentives and policies that will encourage them to do this.

The city needs to continue to support the Greater Grads program, which is a program that we and many other companies send our interns to throughout the summer so that they can network with other interns and get a bit of a sales job from city leaders on why it is a good idea to stay in OKC. I got the opportunity to hear Mayor Cornett speak and meet him at the final Greater Grads program this summer where they honored the company sponsors of the program and that man is just great in my opinion. The type of things that the program was doing to promote this state and how they were doing it directly to their target audience was spot on with the type of things we need to be doing to keep kids here.

This next part isn't going to set well with uber-conservatives... but the fact is the city and state need to spend some money. The program above I just mentioned? Double it's funding. The lack of internships and what not at large companies in the metro due to budget concerns I mentioned? Offer major tax incentives to make it worthwhile to have interns around. I think if a lot of older companies had the chance to see how productive this generation is they might just make them an offer to stay around. Someone in another thread mentioned that it's hard to stay here when you have student loans to pay off... well get serious and offer to pay off their loans if a college grad stays here and works for a company for x number of years. This could be done through some kind of tax rebate, or maybe by giving companies an incentive to offer some kind of bonus large enough to pay off the debt.

All the other stuff... comments about extremist attitudes, not enough diverse people, etc. will all kind of correct themselves if this is done. I mean part of the reason we don't have some of the cool businesses and recreational activities of other states is simply because we don't have the demographics to support it. In the recent past I myself toyed with the idea of starting a business here on the side, basically being the money/business and partnering with someone who would be the operator, but after some review it really came down to the fact that there weren't enough people in the target demographic in OKC to make it worthwhile.

I think mayor Cornett's observations of trying to create a Raleigh Research Triangle here in OKC are a very good, strategic way of attempting to accomplish this. Such a move would attract more college grads here, which over time potentially increases the customer, supplier, employee, and competitor bases. Eventually you hit a critical mass.

I think places like Seattle and Phoenix benefited greatly in the last century from being located so geographically close to the high population bases of LA, San Fran, and other California cities. Many people tired of living in the rat race of California moved on to more affordable, quieter but still bustling communities. If you think about it, really today Texas is California, and we are Washington state. There are lessons to be learned there....

Very well said, dismayed :congrats:

Dismayed,

Amazing post, you summed up my thoughts exactly. You are so right about the need for this state to start investing in itself. The amount of money this state spends on infrastructure, education, and the like is laughable. Both parties in the legislature are so petrified of being labeled a tax-and-spend goon they would rather let bridges fall down than invest in this state's future. Its neither "liberal" or "conservative" to make your state better, and yes you actually have to spend money to do it sometimes! As far as building things, thank god for MAP's or we would be screwed right now! Even still I think the state's bugled actions has somewhat limited this city's future. The people that run this state represent rural interests and are usually from half-dead small towns anyway and they are perfectly okay if the rest of the state is like.


Texans never let reality get in the way of a good theory....

Ha! If I can remember my Texas History class, the Secession clause was a provision in the 1845 treaty that allowed Texas to join the US. It would never happen no matter what Tricky Ricky says because Texas is a net receiver of federal funds. Never mentioned that in class....

The secession point is just brought up to get people outside of Texas to "remember the Alamo."

I can't help myself, I'm going to have to comment on this thread. I'd like to make some observations from someone who is on the other side of the table... that is, someone who works for one of the largest and wealthiest companies on the planet and often tries to hire college new hires.

I will say right off the bat that right to work is complete misdirection for the vast majority of this discussion. Take a look at the 2000 census... 75% or greater of the US population is now working in services... blue collar workers, the folks who actually unionize, are a tiny minority now. The influence of unions will be dead and buried within 25 years. It just doesn't matter, especially when you're a company that hires white collar people.

State income taxes... we don't care. Don't care! I can tell you exactly why we're here. Because of customer relationships, networking, and a decent sized pool of competitors that we can cannibalize from. This is really the key. Re-read this paragraph. All of the stuff that you guys have mentioned in this thread are nothing but red-herrings. The only way to get a company to move, stay, or grow here is appeal to it on it's #1 pocketbook issues... which are customer base, employee base, and supplier/vendor networking.

You want to attract more companies to OKC? For the love of God make more improvements to Will Rogers. I don't mean minor improvements, I mean do whatever it takes to get non-stop direct flights out of OKC to every major airport in the country. Pass a MAPS for WRWA and throw a $100 million at it. I am totally serious. You guys have no idea how hard it is to get corporate travelers to move to a non-hub city.

Want to get more companies to open up shop here? A lot of us hate bureaucracy more than taxes. Depending on industry Oklahoma is really quite the maze of laws and regulations when it comes to the specifics of your industry or even building your freaking building. And yet we still end up with structures that look cheap and have no landscaping. It's just amazing. I seriously know business managers who have swarn never to open another business in certain central Oklahoma cities because of it. We need to work on this.

The reason I mention all of the above is because if you want to attract college grads you need good jobs here, which means you need good businesses. The city really needs to focus on these types of things.

As far as attracting grads... well it's really quite simple. Offer salaries that are competitive on the national level. It blows my mind that so many companies have such low salaries here. A big reason for this is that so many companies here are small and medium sized companies... so again this goes back to the above statements about attracting large companies. The thing that small companies don't realize is that higher-paid grads are so much more productive because it's so much more competitive at that level. For example ever seen that scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker breaks a pool stick in half, throws it on the floor, and tells two henchmen that he only has room for one more on his staff and to make it quick... LOL... it's kind of like that. If you're waving big bucks around you are going to get very good people applying from all over the place. Good people means better business which translates into higher profits. Having set in on many interviews before it is clear as day that this is the case.

Next, I think you guys are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking how do we keep our kids from leaving this state, we really should be asking how can we get kids from other states that are here for college interested in permanently moving to Oklahoma. To be blunt no one wants to move here, so you have to offer them more money or at least be competitive with wherever they're coming from. Competitive doesn't necessarily have to mean salary.

The reason this is important is because it goes back to the networking comment I made. If a college grad has lots of his or her friends moving to this state, friends from college sticking around, or at least people in their own field here they can relate to, that is going to help nudge them in our direction.

Part of what needs to be done is companies need to spend some budget on recruiting and internship programs. They need to make their presence known at local colleges and universities... it is amazing to me how many people I talk to on a daily basis who don't even know that the company I work for has offices here. Not enough companies are doing this, so that means the city and state need to enact incentives and policies that will encourage them to do this.

The city needs to continue to support the Greater Grads program, which is a program that we and many other companies send our interns to throughout the summer so that they can network with other interns and get a bit of a sales job from city leaders on why it is a good idea to stay in OKC. I got the opportunity to hear Mayor Cornett speak and meet him at the final Greater Grads program this summer where they honored the company sponsors of the program and that man is just great in my opinion. The type of things that the program was doing to promote this state and how they were doing it directly to their target audience was spot on with the type of things we need to be doing to keep kids here.

This next part isn't going to set well with uber-conservatives... but the fact is the city and state need to spend some money. The program above I just mentioned? Double it's funding. The lack of internships and what not at large companies in the metro due to budget concerns I mentioned? Offer major tax incentives to make it worthwhile to have interns around. I think if a lot of older companies had the chance to see how productive this generation is they might just make them an offer to stay around. Someone in another thread mentioned that it's hard to stay here when you have student loans to pay off... well get serious and offer to pay off their loans if a college grad stays here and works for a company for x number of years. This could be done through some kind of tax rebate, or maybe by giving companies an incentive to offer some kind of bonus large enough to pay off the debt.

All the other stuff... comments about extremist attitudes, not enough diverse people, etc. will all kind of correct themselves if this is done. I mean part of the reason we don't have some of the cool businesses and recreational activities of other states is simply because we don't have the demographics to support it. In the recent past I myself toyed with the idea of starting a business here on the side, basically being the money/business and partnering with someone who would be the operator, but after some review it really came down to the fact that there weren't enough people in the target demographic in OKC to make it worthwhile.

I think mayor Cornett's observations of trying to create a Raleigh Research Triangle here in OKC are a very good, strategic way of attempting to accomplish this. Such a move would attract more college grads here, which over time potentially increases the customer, supplier, employee, and competitor bases. Eventually you hit a critical mass.

I think places like Seattle and Phoenix benefited greatly in the last century from being located so geographically close to the high population bases of LA, San Fran, and other California cities. Many people tired of living in the rat race of California moved on to more affordable, quieter but still bustling communities. If you think about it, really today Texas is California, and we are Washington state. There are lessons to be learned there....

This is outstanding. Great work. Reading this and getting an understanding how bright you are, I can understand why you're dismayed.

I will say right off the bat that right to work is complete misdirection for the vast majority of this discussion. Take a look at the 2000 census... 75% or greater of the US population is now working in services... blue collar workers, the folks who actually unionize, are a tiny minority now. The influence of unions will be dead and buried within 25 years. It just doesn't matter, especially when you're a company that hires white collar people.


I agree. What a shame that our state legislature wasn't wise enough give us a more economically relevant proposal better suited for the modern age we live in to approve of in 2001.

While "dismayed's" comments may be true to some extent, he absolutely contradicted himself by saying first that corporations care nothing about state income taxes, then later on saying we need to appeal to businesses "1 pocketbook issues." I'm sorry, but if a corporation in OK is getting hit with a 6% state income tax and their #1 competitor in Texas is getting hit with only a 1% franchise tax, thats a huge difference. 5% off of revenues right off the bat puts TX at a huge advantage.

Secondly, for start up and small businesses, which the state should care for, incubate and do everything to retain and grow them, they absolutely do look at state income taxes. I've had too many conversations with business owners in my career to not believe that. Again, it gets to the 5% or 6% differential in taxes on revenues coming off the top. OK business start off behind other states with lower taxes.

As far as virtually everything else Dismayed said, he is absolutely correct, however, I'm not sure how a MAPS for the Airport is going to convince airlines to put in more non-stop flights to other major airports - unless he means subsidize the flights.

Any property they own in Texas is taxed at a higher rate than in Oklahoma and office equipment and fixtures are taxable as property.

It isn't so clear cut as saying one particular form of tax is the difference between Oklahoma, Texas or any other state as each state uses different means and methods to get "their money" as income for the gov't. I have looked into it as one of these days I want to open up my own firm and my wife wants to open up a bakery business, when add up all the different taxes and fees that you have to pay as any different form of business it pretty much is a wash between Texas, Oklahoma and Colorado (the states that we are considering). Then add in workers comp and professional liability insurance and other forms of insurance and there really isn't much of a difference.

Maybe the ones it does matter to are those 10,000 employee businesses that can blackmail states into giving them tax breaks to relocate or to not relocate but the vast majority of people are not employed by mega-corporations, they are employed by small businesses that get absolutely no break on any form of taxation.

While "dismayed's" comments may be true to some extent, he absolutely contradicted himself by saying first that corporations care nothing about state income taxes, then later on saying we need to appeal to businesses "1 pocketbook issues." I'm sorry, but if a corporation in OK is getting hit with a 6% state income tax and their #1 competitor in Texas is getting hit with only a 1% franchise tax, thats a huge difference. 5% off of revenues right off the bat puts TX at a huge advantage.

Secondly, for start up and small businesses, which the state should care for, incubate and do everything to retain and grow them, they absolutely do look at state income taxes. I've had too many conversations with business owners in my career to not believe that. Again, it gets to the 5% or 6% differential in taxes on revenues coming off the top. OK business start off behind other states with lower taxes.

As far as virtually everything else Dismayed said, he is absolutely correct, however, I'm not sure how a MAPS for the Airport is going to convince airlines to put in more non-stop flights to other major airports - unless he means subsidize the flights.

This has no bearing why corporations in Oklahoma have moved to Texas. They moved to Texas to improve their transportation options and to be closer to their industry talent pool.

Talent is the number one asset corporations look for in a location. Oklahoma already is a low-cost business environment. But low costs do not ensure talent.

Oklahoma needs to focus on quality of life, quality of life, education, quality of life, and education.

While "dismayed's" comments may be true to some extent, he absolutely contradicted himself by saying first that corporations care nothing about state income taxes, then later on saying we need to appeal to businesses "1 pocketbook issues." I'm sorry, but if a corporation in OK is getting hit with a 6% state income tax and their #1 competitor in Texas is getting hit with only a 1% franchise tax, thats a huge difference. 5% off of revenues right off the bat puts TX at a huge advantage.

Mug, state income tax and franchise tax are completely different taxes. Realistically corporations could care less what the income tax is, that's for their employees in that state to pay.

A corporation's #1 pocketbook issue is a talented employment base. If you don't have people to run your company you can't be there, plain and simple.

It depends of course on the size of the corporation and if the corporate headquarters are relocated as well, but one thing to consider is the personal income tax (which Texas doesn't have) on the executive salaries as well (yes, they have other loopholes). Personally, would much rather the corp take a small hit than my paycheck directly. And want to stress as others have pointed out, have to take all taxes combined and can't do the comparison based just on a particular tax.

Personally think that since God only asked for the tithe (10%), ALL taxes (Federal, State and Local) shouldn't exceed 10%

Good point. Does government think they are bigger than God? Let alone with the tax issue, especially with social issues where government likes to play the role.

While "dismayed's" comments may be true to some extent, he absolutely contradicted himself by saying first that corporations care nothing about state income taxes, then later on saying we need to appeal to businesses "1 pocketbook issues." I'm sorry, but if a corporation in OK is getting hit with a 6% state income tax and their #1 competitor in Texas is getting hit with only a 1% franchise tax, thats a huge difference. 5% off of revenues right off the bat puts TX at a huge advantage.

No, I'm saying that the state tax issues don't even breach the top 5 issues of importance when it comes to thinking about ways to enhance profit. You can find the most tax-friendly state in the union for me to move a business into, but if it's 1000 miles from my customer and is a state full of people who don't have the type of degrees and experience mix that we're looking for, it's a total waste of time. So in my mind it isn't a contradiction... state taxes simply are insignificant compared to everything else.


Secondly, for start up and small businesses, which the state should care for, incubate and do everything to retain and grow them, they absolutely do look at state income taxes. I've had too many conversations with business owners in my career to not believe that. Again, it gets to the 5% or 6% differential in taxes on revenues coming off the top. OK business start off behind other states with lower taxes.

I agree with that, and I think the tax issue is much more significant for small business. I've worked in small business before and still remember how tightly the budgets had to be controlled. My perspective today is from a large business, which doesn't have the same types of concerns as a small business.


As far as virtually everything else Dismayed said, he is absolutely correct, however, I'm not sure how a MAPS for the Airport is going to convince airlines to put in more non-stop flights to other major airports - unless he means subsidize the flights.

That is what I mean. Just like how we basically subsidized infrastructure in our downtown, we need to subsidize the transportation infrastructure at the airport until some point in the future where we no longer have to. I think the cost of doing that would be dwarfed by the potential rewards in the future. I think our city is sometimes too small-minded when it thinks about OKC's role in air transportation... DFW is becoming overwhelmed with air traffic... there is no reason we couldn't be a backup hub or even a competing hub. Lots of places around the country have major airports within 20 miles of each other so I don't see why we're so concerned about being 200 miles from DFW. I personally think that Dallas has grown the way it has because of their airport. It hasn't hurt that they have a friendly tax structure and other things, but I think the airport is what initially did it for that city. Dallas really took off starting in the 1960s... and that pretty much corresponds to when DFW and Love Field took off. So I agree OKC's tax structure and other things should be improved, but those aren't the top concerns.

Someone else mentioned state income taxes on executives... while that is a concern, it is never the top concern. Customer-location or other strategic business issues are always going to trump personal issues... if they don't then the executives are not keeping the best interests of their shareholders in mind and deserve to be fired. Now, if a company is considering a relocation and all things are equal except for tax issues and such you can pretty much bet that a company is moving to the more tax-friendly state, but it is never the top concern and if it is then that company isn't being managed well. The main reason is because even if your corporate HQ are in a heavy tax state that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a "resident" of that state. Executives often spend 80% of their time traveling or telecommuting... They could pretty easily just buy a house in whatever state has the lowest income tax if they wanted to. They have travel expense budgets... it'd work out better for them that way anyway.

Oklahoma needs to focus on quality of life, quality of life, education, quality of life, and education.

Completely agree. There's a reason why companies continue to do business in cities having the highest tax rates in the nation... there's an established talent pool there, and if you're a company that does business in the B2B realm you have tons of customers to go after.

Someone else mentioned state income taxes on executives... while that is a concern, it is never the top concern. Customer-location or other strategic business issues are always going to trump everything else. Now, if a company is considering a relocation and all things are equal except for tax issues and such you can pretty much bet that a company is moving to the more tax-friendly state, but it is never the top concern and if it is then that company isn't being managed well. The main reason is because even if your corporate HQ are in a heavy tax state that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a "resident" of that state. Executives often spend 80% of their time traveling or telecommuting... They could pretty easily just buy a house in whatever state has the lowest income tax if they wanted to.
That happens quite a bit back east where everything is so much closer together as some of the "tax the rich" strategies have found out, it has backfired on states like Maryland and NY where they can easily relocate their residence to another state and commute easily.

Investors Business Daily - Soak-The-Rich Strategies Backfire In State After Deficit-Ridden State (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=508308&Ntt=malanga)

That happens quite a bit back east where everything is so much closer together as some of the "tax the rich" strategies have found out, it has backfired on states like Maryland and NY where they can easily relocate their residence to another state and commute easily.

Investors Business Daily - Soak-The-Rich Strategies Backfire In State After Deficit-Ridden State (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=508308&Ntt=malanga)

Absolutely. I don't remember exactly but didn't Donald Trump recently threaten to move out of NYC if they enacted such a tax? It's a lot easier for an executive to move than most would think.

[QUOTE=dismayed;290518]
That is what I mean. Just like how we basically subsidized infrastructure in our downtown, we need to subsidize the transportation infrastructure at the airport until some point in the future where we no longer have to. I think the cost of doing that would be dwarfed by the potential rewards in the future. I think our city is sometimes too small-minded when it thinks about OKC's role in air transportation... DFW is becoming overwhelmed with air traffic... there is no reason we couldn't be a backup hub or even a competing hub. Lots of places around the country have major airports within 20 miles of each other so I don't see why we're so concerned about being 200 miles from DFW. QUOTE]

In the last few years the Airlines have been merging and either consolidating or eliminating current hubs. Oklahoma City has talked before about trying to become an airline hub and I think that possibility is more remote than ever and even with offers of subsidies the airlines just won't buy it. The best we can hope for is point to point nonstop flights and in some cases offering subsidies for them. The airlines are under such financial pressures right now that even having a route from OKC that is profitable doesn't guarantee that it will continue or not be downsized.

It's an urban legend that Texas has the right to secede written into the document that annexed it to the US.

It does have the right to split into "as many as four additional states" written into that document. This has its roots in the fact that part of Texas extended north of the Free State/Slave State line determined by the Missouri Compromise.

Rick

Actually he is fascinated by so called patriotic Americans talking like traitors.
And both he and I recognized the state split fact, compare to the myth of succession.

It's been a while since I read over OKC tax codes.

Any updates on getting rid of the capital gains tax?

[QUOTE=dismayed;290518]
That is what I mean. Just like how we basically subsidized infrastructure in our downtown, we need to subsidize the transportation infrastructure at the airport until some point in the future where we no longer have to. I think the cost of doing that would be dwarfed by the potential rewards in the future. I think our city is sometimes too small-minded when it thinks about OKC's role in air transportation... DFW is becoming overwhelmed with air traffic... there is no reason we couldn't be a backup hub or even a competing hub. Lots of places around the country have major airports within 20 miles of each other so I don't see why we're so concerned about being 200 miles from DFW. QUOTE]

In the last few years the Airlines have been merging and either consolidating or eliminating current hubs. Oklahoma City has talked before about trying to become an airline hub and I think that possibility is more remote than ever and even with offers of subsidies the airlines just won't buy it. The best we can hope for is point to point nonstop flights and in some cases offering subsidies for them. The airlines are under such financial pressures right now that even having a route from OKC that is profitable doesn't guarantee that it will continue or not be downsized.

Great points, I have always wondered why OKC could not siphon some of the DFW traffic to become a mini-hub

Any chance OKC had at becoming a hub died when US Airways and America West merged in 2005. I am not even sure how the idea of a mini-hub would work. The thing with hubs like Dallas and Atlanta is that most people are connecting there so how would you get a passenger to a connecting flight via a mini-hub that would reduce flights at the original hub (which was the original intent)?

Now if OKC or the State were serious they could go after AirTran for a western hub. AirTran currently operates hubs in Atlanta, Milwaukee, and Baltimore plus major operations in Orlando.

Why is OKC not a career destination? I think big... NY is a career destination, so is LA... not only a career destination, but an entertainment/environment destination. Why do we think small?

Because we're not in Texas.

Why is OKC not a career destination? I think big... NY is a career destination, so is LA... not only a career destination, but an entertainment/environment destination. Why do we think small? I always wondered the same thing? As far as career destination, I believe it has to be because emphasis are not placed on locating businesses esp. Fortune 500 companies to OKC. There are many "local" entrepreneurs that are talented and driven but the key is to keep them in OKC and not let them bolt to more "forward" thinking cities with more "viable" options. There has to be a "will" and need for OKC leaders to invest in something besides Oil and Gas, granted that plays a major role in the economy of OKC and also Oklahoma. Lets attract more jobs in the finance, insurance, banking etc.. more white collars jobs because these types of jobs tend to attract educated, talented individuals who not only have more disposable incomes but contribute to spending in the local economy and adding to the local and State tax base. The city "must" and needs to get higher paying wages in order for it to truly succeed. This is just a "fact" that should not even be up for debate! We can say all day long lets grow our local business first, then try to get other businesses here, but there are not "enough" local businesses IMO to keep the city growing to where it "could" be. I always believe that what compromises and makes a city are it's people and leaders! If it is the "will" of the people and it's leaders to attract good "quality" industry then it will do it, and if not, then it was not the will of OKC inhabitants or it's leaders to have good paying jobs????

Well, at least OKC has made progress in it's image over the last 5 years as a happening place in its early stages. This makes some people when looking over from the outside want to come over and become a part of what's happening. Back in the 1990s it wasn't this way. But may God forbid any more weird religious right wing activist stories springing up again. To the outside civilized world a step backward is taken every time that happens.

Well, at least OKC has made progress in it's image over the last 5 years as a happening place in its early stages. This makes some people when looking over from the outside want to come over and become a part of what's happening. Back in the 1990s it wasn't this way. But may God forbid any more weird religious right wing activist stories springing up again. To the outside civilized world a step backward is taken every time that happens.

yup

But may God forbid any more weird religious right wing activist stories springing up again. To the outside civilized world a step backward is taken every time that happens.

Whenever I think of relocating somewhere the first thing I do is check their local news for religious right wing activist stories. I am sure everyone else does that as well.

Have you ever moved anywhere Bunty (other than moving when your parents moved) or have you lived in Oklahoma your whole life?

everyone talks of good paying jobs (in multiple threads) but Im curious as to what the $ consensus is of a "good paying job" to keep or attract the 25- 30 somethings. I think I know what a good paying job is, but im not sure if everyone's definition is above or below below mine.

Benman- It depends very much on the industry. 25 year olds that are fresh out of law school look for a different salary level (many have loans) than someone with more of a standard undergrad degree for example.

Let's take the middle of your range. 27-28. By then, someone is five or so years out of school. Assuming they have been employed in a white collar or creative job, assuming they are saving for a house, want a social life, etc, etc and taking into account a lower cost of rent, I would think $50K-$60K is reasonable.

One issue: people in OKC tend to marry earlier than in bigger cities. If a couple is beginning child-rearing as early as 28, they'll need more money or curtail their lifestyles.

Just a personal opinion. But it depends greatly on the industry.

everyone talks of good paying jobs (in multiple threads) but Im curious as to what the $ consensus is of a "good paying job" to keep or attract the 25-30 somethings. I think I know what a good paying job is, but im not sure if everyone's definition is above or below below mine.

In places I have worked over the last 10 years they started recent college grads at around $40,000. Although, depedning on what they were hired to do I have seen it from $25,000 up to $60,000.

Don't go into architecture if you want a salary in that range, at that age, especially in OKC...or Austin, in fact I don't know of any firms in Dallas or Houston where you could make that in your 20's.

I'm 20 so i'll throw in the mix of things that makes up why I don't see myself moving there.

Main problem for me and quite a few people I know is that the city just seems dead. Sure, there's quite a bit going on if you compare now to the city's past, but it's still far behind a lot of other places. There's really not enough things to do to make it worth living in the city full time, just to visit. Many other places have all the things OKC has and much much more. Sure, it could cost more to live that somewhere else but you gotta consider that most of us in this age range want a LOT of stuff available to do and want it to be there right when we want it. OKC seems more of a settling down type of city at the moment. Streets are pretty much always empty unless there's some big festival or event going on.

Also, the underground scene isn't very well developed or diversified at all. Like concerts, usually it's either someone mainstream who's made it big in the charts or someone who isn't yet all that well known. There aren't many shows with bands that are very popular but only within a certain subculture. OKC seems big on mainstream things which is good but it doesn't satisfy all the 'extra' interests a lot of people have.

OKC also lacks a lot in walkability. Things are way too spread out. I'd much prefer to be able to walk from place to place or have decent public transport available at the very least. Public transportation doesn't really even seem worth it though because of the density issue. Also, a lot more importance should be placed on beautification efforts.

The lack of energy and constant action in the city also makes an impression that it's unsafe, however untrue that may be. There's been times I've been going down a street downtown or in the surrounding area and have been completely alone. It's a bit creepy that the parts of a city with a metro pop. of 1,000,000+ with the highest concentration of things to do could be considered dead at most any time. Causes a person to assume that something isn't right with the place and they should avoid it.

Whenever I think of relocating somewhere the first thing I do is check their local news for religious right wing activist stories. I am sure everyone else does that as well.

Have you ever moved anywhere Bunty (other than moving when your parents moved) or have you lived in Oklahoma your whole life?

I'm a native, homebody Oklahoma, but what does it matter? Surely, lots of people on the outside, hopefully not all that many of them, must have thought awful lowly and backward of Oklahoma when they heard of Sally Kern declare that the acceptance of the homosexual agenda was more dangerous to America than terrorism. You don't know how many bright and intelligent people heard that. You can only hope not many and be happy that it seems hardly any religious right wackos, such as Pat Robertson want to re establish their headquarters to Oklahoma.

And who knows how much damage to Oklahoma there is still left to undo and forgive from efforts in the late 1990's that came about to try to ban Penthouse and the Tin Drum?

Hopefully, enough time has passed for people to forgive Oklahoma every time they were traveling on a plane and got their drink suddenly snatched away from them by the stewardess because the plane was about to enter dry air space--Oklahoma. Such strange oddity had been happening until around 1985.

Oh, well, we can be thankful than in 2010 Oklahoma has made so much liberal progress in catching up with the more civilized states that visitors from the outside are less likely to encounter a news story about a controversial issue and think, "My God, how can this state be so sorry assed backward? That issue they're going crazy about got settled in my state decades ago!"

I'm a native, homebody Oklahoma, but what does it matter? Surely, lots of people on the outside, hopefully not all that many of them, must have thought awful lowly and backward of Oklahoma when they heard of Sally Kern declare that the acceptance of the homosexual agenda was more dangerous to America than terrorism. You don't know how many bright and intelligent people heard that. You can only hope not many and be happy that it seems hardly any religious right wackos, such as Pat Robertson want to re establish their headquarters to Oklahoma.

And who knows how much damage to Oklahoma there is still left to undo and forgive from efforts in the late 1990's that came about to try to ban Penthouse and the Tin Drum?

Hopefully, enough time has passed for people to forgive Oklahoma every time they were traveling on a plane and got their drink suddenly snatched away from them by the stewardess because the plane was about to enter dry air space--Oklahoma. Such strange oddity had been happening until around 1985.

Oh, well, we can be thankful than in 2010 Oklahoma has made so much liberal progress in catching up with the more civilized states that visitors from the outside are less likely to encounter a news story about a controversial issue and think, "My God, how can this state be so sorry assed backward? That issue they're going crazy about got settled in my state decades ago!"

I only ask because you seem to not have a clue as to why people move and what they take into consideration when doing so. You, having never moved in your life, think people place a lot of emphasis on the per capita right wing nut jobs of a give state. I have lived in 3 states, and multiple cities in Florida (Daytona Beach, Tampa, Jacksonville) and I can tell you 100% that the number of left wing or right wing nut jobs never entered the decision process.

There are way more pressing issues to take into consideration when moving. Things like employment, housing, schools, income tax, property tax are way higher on the list than anything you have ever brought to the table as a reason.

....encounter a news story about a controversial issue and think, "My God, how can this state be so sorry assed backward? That issue they're going crazy about got settled in my state decades ago!"

There's loads of things to consider when looking to move.
But the community feel and so forth adds to the the list.
Also for some here, the ease or the history of extradition is important. lol

I think that there are two really antagonistic, self-defeatist, horrible "schools of thought" implicated when it comes to OKC being competitive. And they feed off of each other which makes it worse.

A lot of people seem to be in the, "Go back to New York with your crazy ideas. I don't want OKC to become any of those goddamn cities you mentioned." The other school of thought is, "Well little-minded Okie, the reason, and the only reason, we can't move ourselves forward is our location in the middle of backwards Oklahoma, rather than in Texas or New York."

It would be nice if we could strike a balance between the big city envy and big city hate people that are always speaking out here. The bottom line that the hate group needs to realize is that progress is something that will always happen, and the bottom line that the envy group needs to realize is that progress is happening, just not as fast or as dramatic as they would like.

I personally feel that a city is primarily made up of the people who live in it. If everybody goes around with a piss-poor attitude, that is the kind of progress the city will make.

Yep, as my mother used to say, "Poor people have poor ways."

I only ask because you seem to not have a clue as to why people move and what they take into consideration when doing so. You, having never moved in your life, think people place a lot of emphasis on the per capita right wing nut jobs of a give state. I have lived in 3 states, and multiple cities in Florida (Daytona Beach, Tampa, Jacksonville) and I can tell you 100% that the number of left wing or right wing nut jobs never entered the decision process.

There are way more pressing issues to take into consideration when moving. Things like employment, housing, schools, income tax, property tax are way higher on the list than anything you have ever brought to the table as a reason.

So what. It's not necesarily what ordinary workers are looking for. You don't know how much CEOs, line ones who are contemplating a big move and so who may have thousands of jobs to offer may take into negative account should they hear of far right odd ball stories coming out of Oklahoma. The non far right wing stuff can't help either such as the masturbaing judge and a former state senator who suggested dealing with cock fighting by putting boxing gloves on fighting roosters.

There are so many more damning right wing nutzo stories that come out of Texas and they're experiencing the highest population boom in the country right now of any state.

From Polygamy to the hate crime in Jasper where a black man was drug behind a pickup to death. You have Waco, and a new anti-gay beating seemingly weekly.


No one knows about little blip stories about masturbating judges and cock fighting unless they're doing research. A few years ago a guy outside Seattle was letting a horse have sex with him to the point that he died, not exaclty keeping CEOs from doing business in Seattle.


Your right wing nutzo theory is pretty dead.

I'm 20 so i'll throw in the mix of things that makes up why I don't see myself moving there.

Main problem for me and quite a few people I know is that the city just seems dead. Sure, there's quite a bit going on if you compare now to the city's past, but it's still far behind a lot of other places. There's really not enough things to do to make it worth living in the city full time, just to visit. Many other places have all the things OKC has and much much more. Sure, it could cost more to live that somewhere else but you gotta consider that most of us in this age range want a LOT of stuff available to do and want it to be there right when we want it. OKC seems more of a settling down type of city at the moment. Streets are pretty much always empty unless there's some big festival or event going on.



So a place like Dallas where the streets are far more clogged by traffic would appeal to you a lot more?

Meanwhile in Texas...

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/texas-school-board-keeps-ban-on-boys-long-hair/article/3431473?custom_click=headlines_widget)

There are so many more damning right wing nutzo stories that come out of Texas and they're experiencing the highest population boom in the country right now of any state.

From Polygamy to the hate crime in Jasper where a black man was drug behind a pickup to death. You have Waco, and a new anti-gay beating seemingly weekly.


No one knows about little blip stories about masturbating judges and cock fighting unless they're doing research. A few years ago a guy outside Seattle was letting a horse have sex with him to the point that he died, not exaclty keeping CEOs from doing business in Seattle.

Of course, if you look up to and just adore Sally Kern and wish you could vote for her for reelection, why should I be surprised if you disagree with me!?

Your right wing nutzo theory is pretty dead.

No, not all dead. Far, far, from it. Because what you're doing is bringing up places that are far bigger than Oklahoma. As was already intelligently brought up in this thread CEO's want to go to places where there's more talent in numbers to choose from. Oklahoma is sadly lacking in this compared to states larger in population.

Meanwhile in Texas...

NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/texas-school-board-keeps-ban-on-boys-long-hair/article/3431473?custom_click=headlines_widget)

lol, it's like it's back to 1964 and the Beatles all over again.

I'm 20 so i'll throw in the mix of things that makes up why I don't see myself moving there.

Main problem for me and quite a few people I know is that the city just seems dead. Sure, there's quite a bit going on if you compare now to the city's past, but it's still far behind a lot of other places. There's really not enough things to do to make it worth living in the city full time, just to visit. Many other places have all the things OKC has and much much more. Sure, it could cost more to live that somewhere else but you gotta consider that most of us in this age range want a LOT of stuff available to do and want it to be there right when we want it. OKC seems more of a settling down type of city at the moment. Streets are pretty much always empty unless there's some big festival or event going on.

Also, the underground scene isn't very well developed or diversified at all. Like concerts, usually it's either someone mainstream who's made it big in the charts or someone who isn't yet all that well known. There aren't many shows with bands that are very popular but only within a certain subculture. OKC seems big on mainstream things which is good but it doesn't satisfy all the 'extra' interests a lot of people have.

OKC also lacks a lot in walkability. Things are way too spread out. I'd much prefer to be able to walk from place to place or have decent public transport available at the very least. Public transportation doesn't really even seem worth it though because of the density issue. Also, a lot more importance should be placed on beautification efforts.

The lack of energy and constant action in the city also makes an impression that it's unsafe, however untrue that may be. There's been times I've been going down a street downtown or in the surrounding area and have been completely alone. It's a bit creepy that the parts of a city with a metro pop. of 1,000,000+ with the highest concentration of things to do could be considered dead at most any time. Causes a person to assume that something isn't right with the place and they should avoid it.

No offense man, but you really dont know what you're talking about.

You're 2 years removed from high school, you can't even drink yet. How could you have a really meaningful opinion about urban living when you're probably 2-3 years from even living on your own and one year removed from getting into half the establishments downtown after 9:00 pm?

No, not all dead. Far, far, from it. Because what you're doing is bringing up places that are far bigger than Oklahoma. As was already intelligently brought up in this thread CEO's want to go to places where there's more talent in numbers to choose from. Oklahoma is sadly lacking in this compared to states larger in population.

OK....so what does that have to do with right wing news stories?


Um....?

OK....so what does that have to do with right wing news stories?


Um....?

Hey, in trying to compete with the more civilized bigger states Oklahoma needs no help from the kookie right wing story makers as well as the other types of kookie stuff like the masturbating judge.

Hey, in trying to compete with the more civilized bigger states Oklahoma needs no help from the kookie right wing story makers as well as the other types of kookie stuff like the masturbating judge.

That's a pretty big stretch....just admit there is absolutely no correlation


If that were the case then places like Dallas, New Orleans, Jacksonville, Nashville, Kansas City and Houston would never have gotten so large in the first place.

I did not want to go back and look at all the previous posts on the subject but has anyone mentioned the lack of a state personal or corporate income tax in Texas? This is a major factor in Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston's growth since the late 1960's. Even Pennzoil and Quaker State moved their headquarters to Dallas to avoid paying the corporate income tax. I do not want Oklahoma City to become another Dallas or Houston, especially with the traffic problems but I would like to see OKC's economy diversify beyond energy, agriculture, bio-science, and government.

Bigrayok

Red Dirt, it seems to me that Maniacal Pope brought up some good points from the point of view of somebody on the cusp of deciding where he (she?) is going to put down roots. Plenty of people who are 20 are forming their opinions of cities, good and bad. Seems he (she?) is exactly the person who should be contributing to this thread.
And if memory serves (and it wasn't that long ago) seems to me that most 20 year olds are pretty savvy about nightlife, concerts, entertainment, etc. I certainly didn't wait until my 21st birthday to venture outside my house for the first time.

I'm 20 so i'll throw in the mix of things that makes up why I don't see myself moving there.

Main problem for me and quite a few people I know is that the city just seems dead. Sure, there's quite a bit going on if you compare now to the city's past, but it's still far behind a lot of other places. There's really not enough things to do to make it worth living in the city full time, just to visit. Many other places have all the things OKC has and much much more. Sure, it could cost more to live that somewhere else but you gotta consider that most of us in this age range want a LOT of stuff available to do and want it to be there right when we want it. OKC seems more of a settling down type of city at the moment. Streets are pretty much always empty unless there's some big festival or event going on.

Also, the underground scene isn't very well developed or diversified at all. Like concerts, usually it's either someone mainstream who's made it big in the charts or someone who isn't yet all that well known. There aren't many shows with bands that are very popular but only within a certain subculture. OKC seems big on mainstream things which is good but it doesn't satisfy all the 'extra' interests a lot of people have.

OKC also lacks a lot in walkability. Things are way too spread out. I'd much prefer to be able to walk from place to place or have decent public transport available at the very least. Public transportation doesn't really even seem worth it though because of the density issue. Also, a lot more importance should be placed on beautification efforts.

The lack of energy and constant action in the city also makes an impression that it's unsafe, however untrue that may be. There's been times I've been going down a street downtown or in the surrounding area and have been completely alone. It's a bit creepy that the parts of a city with a metro pop. of 1,000,000+ with the highest concentration of things to do could be considered dead at most any time. Causes a person to assume that something isn't right with the place and they should avoid it.


I'll be honest, I am not that much older than you are, but I can tell you that if I would have thought to myself, "I wonder what the nightlife is like in OKC?" I might not have moved here. But in order to make an informed decision, I had to focus on the bigger picture and not just on satisfying my immediate needs.

OKC makes a great location for MY PERSONAL goals and motivations. I think about where I want to be in 5-10 years, and the answer is not a physical location but rather a lifestyle. I want to be prosperous in my career, I want to meet someone stable to have a relationship and kids with and I want to be able to walk around without the fear of getting shot. Pretty simple, if you ask me.

I think different locations attract those who want what that city offers. You will find people who are unhappy no matter where they are at. And in terms of "having fun", if you live in a city where you can only get a job at your local grocery store, despite your education and experience, you really won't have that much money to have fun with.

Red Dirt, it seems to me that Maniacal Pope brought up some good points from the point of view of somebody on the cusp of deciding where he (she?) is going to put down roots. Plenty of people who are 20 are forming their opinions of cities, good and bad. Seems he (she?) is exactly the person who should be contributing to this thread.
And if memory serves (and it wasn't that long ago) seems to me that most 20 year olds are pretty savvy about nightlife, concerts, entertainment, etc. I certainly didn't wait until my 21st birthday to venture outside my house for the first time.

I'm 26 and moved out to Seattle for 6 months when I was 21. I interned in New Orleans when I was 20 and know that drastic difference that leap from 20-21 can be. The entire world changes, so unless he/she has a great fake ID I doubt very much he/she has any savvy at all on nightlife. It took me visiting 40 cities over the next 5 years to grasp what makes a great city.

OKC has it's flaws for sure, but the reasons he (she) gave for not wanting to move to OKC were pretty vanilla.

I'm a singer/songwriter as well and know the "underground" music scene here is pretty rich and diverse, from Mama Sweet's Red Dirt rock and roll, to the sounds of Mayola and Dorian Small the local music scene is pretty robust.

Everyone in Oklahoma says they want to leave Oklahoma, that's until they actually do (like me) and then all they want to do is come back. My roommate is a political activist from San Diego, went to San Diego State Univ. and he loves it here. His jobs lasts until November but he's already trying to make contacts to get a job permanently in the city.

If places to consume alcohol is the driving factor, then I just as soon it drive someone right out of state. The lack of drunks and alcoholics is not Oklahoma's problem. Besides, Texas has dry counties.

I know Bunty, Texas has more people than Oklahoma. Do you ever wonder why? Meanwhile, California sells hard liquor at 7-11 and people are fleeing the state in droves. Do you ever wonder why?

Here is an idea - if you want Oklahoma to grow do the exact opposite of what California does.

No offense man, but you really dont know what you're talking about.

You're 2 years removed from high school, you can't even drink yet. How could you have a really meaningful opinion about urban living when you're probably 2-3 years from even living on your own and one year removed from getting into half the establishments downtown after 9:00 pm?

So, a 20 year-old can't judge an underground music scene or evaluate the "walkability" of a city? Yep, that's a major failure on your part to undermine his/her opinion simply because you don't like the (valid) complaints he/she raised about OKC.

Red Dirt, I don't disagree with the jist of your post. You've made a personal journey and you have a point of view which serves you well. When I was 20, I didn't know much about urban living, but I had a damn good fake ID and could tell you instinctively that there was a huge difference between the OKC of the 1990s and the St. Louis of the 1990s. Not everyone can travel to 40 different cities, and the level of comfort that one feels when one is 20 or 21 or 22 can make a huge difference as to where they choose to start their life. More to the point, I wanted to encourage Maniacal Pope that he has the right to express his point of view as he is at the point where he is starting to make those decisions. I do disagree that "everyone" who is 26 wants to go back to Oklahoma. What generally happens, in my experience, is that people often choose a city right out of college for whatever reason and their lives begin to take shape in that city, making it less likely they will pick up and move back. We do have to think about a 20-year old's impressions rather than just assuming they will go out into the world and then "see the light."

So, a 20 year-old can't judge an underground music scene or evaluate the "walkability" of a city? Yep, that's a major failure on your part to undermine his/her opinion simply because you don't like the (valid) complaints he/she raised about OKC.

No the fact that almost everything he/she said was false is reason to undermine his/her opinion.

Not being super busy means it's unsafe? Really? I wonder if they've ever been on a fork from Bourbon street in New Orleans and thought, "Man it's really busy here, I feel totally safe" or tried to get a Jumbo Slice in Adams/Morgan in DC where one in eight people are packing heat.

The opinion on the music was unfounded because people like mainstream music everywhere, Oklahoma is no different. The ironic thing about saying something like that is one of our most famous bands, The Flaming Lips love it here and are heavily involved in the local music scene. The Lips are anything but "mainstream". We have a developed Red Dirt scene, and it's not like we dont have bands here that aren't making it big. Oklahoma's own "Taddy Porter" has completely revitalized the 70s sound and created a national following.

Thought he/she may have been spot on about the public transportation and walkability the traffic here is bearable enough where you dont have to walk everywhere and can get anywhere you want in 20 mins. It can take a person 2 hours to get 20 miles in DC using the metro. Decent marathoners can run that fast.

There are plenty of reasons to not want to move to OKC but the ones she gave really aren't very good. Public Transit is a good one, walkability is a good one. Quiet, unsafe streets and nothing to do (from someone that can't legally get into half the entertainment district), the music scene? These are not good reasons.