Re: Sally Kern
She is here because it's a fertile ground for hate and intolerance.
She was elected because there are like minded morons who voted for her.

It is ideology problem.
If loons abound why would a young person want to be anywhere near a place that is ignorant and clueless.

The politics forum is that way -> Politics - OKCTalk (http://www.okctalk.com/politics/)

Re: Sally Kern
She is here because it's a fertile ground for hate and intolerance.
She was elected because there are like minded morons who voted for her.

It is ideology problem.
If loons abound why would a young person want to be anywhere near a place that is ignorant and clueless.

You are talking about one politician out of 150. You can believe it's fertile ground for hate and intolerance, but you can also believe the world is flat instead of round.

Take this over to the politcal board and obsess over Sally Kern until you are green in the face.

Nope the question was asked as to why young people leave OKC.
Thats the answer.

Nope the question was asked as to why young people leave OKC.
Thats the answer.

and young people have already replied to you and said your answer is full of sh*t.

Identify and fix the real problems. Young people didn't suddenly start leaving Oklahoma in 2004. They've been leaving for decades.

Nope the question was asked as to why young people leave OKC.
Thats the answer.

And you think that is a logical answer? It doesn't fly. Many people move other places for many reasons, not just Sally Kern style politics.

You're basing your conclusion on the assumption that every person that leaves is a liberal victim of Sally Kern.

and young people have already replied to you and said your answer is full of sh*t.

Identify and fix the real problems. Young people didn't suddenly start leaving Oklahoma in 2004. They've been leaving for decades.


I have seen a trend of more people staying around or at least coming back after a short time in another city which is wonderful.
In my opinion, the a big problem is the high maintenance college grads and recent college grads that think they are going to go live some glamourous urban lifestyle in another bigger city. They lease their expensive apartment, buy a new car they shouldnt be buying, live check to check and later on find out their desired lifestyle isnt all its cracked up to be. Of course not everyone is like this, but I think a large percentage is. Basically, the allure is to move to a city where they feel "bigtime." I think others simply believe there are better opportunities other places when in reality there is just more qualified people in a bigger city wanting the same job you want.
Graduating from OU, Dallas is the big hype (mainly because its the closest "big" city). Why not Fort Worth, they are both pretty much one big city? Well, its basically because it doesnt have the hype.
Oh, and all the comments about politics and religion playing a factor is kinda stupid.

and young people have already replied to you and said your answer is full of sh*t.

Identify and fix the real problems. Young people didn't suddenly start leaving Oklahoma in 2004. They've been leaving for decades.

That is GMWise's problem in a nutshell. He got an answer from people that know why they left and then he argues with the same people that it can't possible be the reason - it has to be something else.

GMWise - I know 100% why I left Oklahoma at age 23 and it had nothing to do with fundamentalist Chiristians. It had to do with starting a carrer that offered me more than 2% or 3% annual wage increases for the rest of my life.

The generally unimpressive Oklahoma geography surely plays a role in many young people not staying. People and CEOs of companies like to flock to Colorado and Utah due to the mountain scenery and skiing. If you have ever been to Colorado Springs before, then you know what I mean. Of course, on the other hand, it has to be said that flat scenery never stopped Dallas from booming.
Yep, Dallas is equally unimpressive geography wise, as is Houston, the only redeeming value Houston has (geography wise) is the coast is real close. I think for many, location is paramount, for others job opportunities, the problem is there isn't just one thing that attracts people to a place it is a conglomeration of many factors.

I lived in Dallas from age 27-29, moved there because of how bad the A/E/C job market was in OKC and Tulsa at that time (1991) and got a job down there. I moved back to OKC because I found that Dallas was not that much different when you were living everyday life. Sure there were more "options" for certain things but in the day to day life I didn't find it that much different. Things got better in OKC and I moved back in 1993. Even though there is more opportunity there, I have no desire to move back to Dallas and I had the chance in 2004.

a big problem is the high maintenance college grads and recent college grads that think they are going to go live some glamourous urban lifestyle in another bigger city. They lease their expensive apartment, buy a new car they shouldnt be buying, live check to check and later on find out their desired lifestyle isnt all its cracked up to be.

You mean it isn't? Prove it. Prove that we're better off staying in OKC than moving to Dallas, Denver, Chicago, etc.. because you have contempt for an urban lifestyle doesn't mean that it's not what most younger people are looking for. It is. This post screams, "I know what's best for you, and the urban lifestyle is bogus." I think it's that mentality right there..as long as the majority of people roll their eyes at OKC trying to retain and lure recent college grads, you won't see any change.

I've seen this sanctimonious "Yeah, 'urban lifestyle' whatever" message from a majority of the older posters in this thread, and it is indicative somewhat of how the majority of people in this city feel. So what is the "accepted" lifestyle for a recent college graduate here? We should be living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment off of the NW Expressway with an old clunker to get around eating crackers because we can't afford meals? No thank you. I won't live that lifestyle, even if it means I won't be back in OKC for a while.

I know that for the majority you know how the "real world" is, or in OKC at least. Nobody gets a good job right out of college. So when people start talking about how they want to at least have a decent job, doing something meaningful, able to support themselves decently out of college, you all kind of roll your eyes and say "it doesn't work like that." I realize it doesn't work like that here, but believe it or not, there are other places where you don't get crappy jobs right out of college. I know this is a shock.

You mean it isn't? Prove it. Prove that we're better off staying in OKC than moving to Dallas, Denver, Chicago, etc.. because you have contempt for an urban lifestyle doesn't mean that it's not what most younger people are looking for. It is. This post screams, "I know what's best for you, and the urban lifestyle is bogus." I think it's that mentality right there..as long as the majority of people roll their eyes at OKC trying to retain and lure recent college grads, you won't see any change.

I've seen this sanctimonious "Yeah, 'urban lifestyle' whatever" message from a majority of the older posters in this thread, and it is indicative somewhat of how the majority of people in this city feel. So what is the "accepted" lifestyle for a recent college graduate here? We should be living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment off of the NW Expressway with an old clunker to get around eating crackers because we can't afford meals? No thank you. I won't live that lifestyle, even if it means I won't be back in OKC for a while.

I know that for the majority you know how the "real world" is, or in OKC at least. Nobody gets a good job right out of college. So when people start talking about how they want to at least have a decent job, doing something meaningful, able to support themselves decently out of college, you all kind of roll your eyes and say "it doesn't work like that." I realize it doesn't work like that here, but believe it or not, there are other places where you don't get crappy jobs right out of college. I know this is a shock.

Eh, he/she's talking about $30k Millionaires (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=30k%20millionaire). It's not really urban/suburban, more of an entitlement and stature complex. It just happens to be that most entertainment districts (where these people congregate) are urban in nature.

I know that for the majority you know how the "real world" is, or in OKC at least. Nobody gets a good job right out of college. So when people start talking about how they want to at least have a decent job, doing something meaningful, able to support themselves decently out of college, you all kind of roll your eyes and say "it doesn't work like that." I realize it doesn't work like that here, but believe it or not, there are other places where you don't get crappy jobs right out of college. I know this is a shock.

Spartan - this is an excellent point. I do hear several people saying "It doesn't work that way". Well guess what, it does in fact work that way in a lot of places. I work with people here in Atlanta that make $60,000 less than 2 years out of college. Now people in OKC can go on and on about lower cost of living blah blah blah. OKC has been tooting that horn for 103 years and people aren't buying it.

My car cost exactly the same in Oklahoma City as it did in Jacksonville. My DirectTv cost the same in OKC as it does in Jacksonville. My new TV cost the same at the Best Buy in OKC as it did at the Best Buy in Jacksonville. Food might be less expensive but that isn't a big deal to me because half of my meals come from the McDonalds dollar menu or the Taco Bell 89cent menu anyhow.

The wage issue in Oklahoma might be because people there don't change jobs very much and just rely on 3% annual increases. When people don't change jobs it takes the pressure off wages because employers don't have to compete to keep employees. When people at the top and middle layers of management don't apply wage pressure it is impossible for people at the bottom to benefit via higher starting wages. So we simply move away.

Bringing additional companies to Oklahoma would be abig help because it provides more options for people to increase their income via new employment at all levels of experience.

See, here's what I'm looking at, to share the concerns of a typical student fixing to graduate college soon with those who might be oblivious.. I have no outstanding loans for my education, and probably won't because of a scholarship, so I'm better off than most people.

I don't think there's any reason I won't be able to rent a nice downtown loft somewhere for a few years and continue to establish credit. It would be nice to not have to get a new car either if I can keep my SUV I've always had and just not use it very often, by either walking or bicycling everywhere..which will also keep the weight off.

From what I'm looking at, if I could just make $40/45k beginning salary somewhere like Seattle or Denver, or at least upper 30s in OKC, then I will be happy. I'm not at all asking for $50k or even $60k, not that it isn't impossible and not that I won't try, it's just being realistic. And you don't really make that much right out of arch school anyway, but there are definitely places you can go where architects are more in demand, such as the high-growth Sunbelt cities (Vegas, LA, Charlotte, Dallas, ATL).

In OKC? I don't know. I don't know how successful I would be at finding a place to live downtown in my price range, I wouldn't expect anything over $39k to begin with, I would probably break down and buy a new car, and I wouldn't be getting to live a truly urban lifestyle. I can forget about bicycling or walking everywhere. The trade off is that I like OKC a lot, I know that there's a lot of opportunity here if you apply yourself, and I might have the chance to be in on actually building up a city.

That's the dilemma. Nowhere do politics factor in. I consider myself pretty alone when it comes to political views that there isn't really anywhere that I would feel appreciated politically anyway, not that I'm so desperately seeking approval I need to be liked such as that.

See, here's what I'm looking at, to share the concerns of a typical student fixing to graduate college soon with those who might be oblivious.. I have no outstanding loans for my education, and probably won't because of a scholarship, so I'm better off than most people.

I don't think there's any reason I won't be able to rent a nice downtown loft somewhere for a few years and continue to establish credit. It would be nice to not have to get a new car either if I can keep my SUV I've always had and just not use it very often, by either walking or bicycling everywhere..which will also keep the weight off.

From what I'm looking at, if I could just make $40/45k beginning salary somewhere like Seattle or Denver, or at least upper 30s in OKC, then I will be happy. I'm not at all asking for $50k or even $60k, not that it isn't impossible and not that I won't try, it's just being realistic. And you don't really make that much right out of arch school anyway, but there are definitely places you can go where architects are more in demand, such as the high-growth Sunbelt cities (Vegas, LA, Charlotte, Dallas, ATL).

In OKC? I don't know. I don't know how successful I would be at finding a place to live downtown in my price range, I wouldn't expect anything over $39k to begin with, I would probably break down and buy a new car, and I wouldn't be getting to live a truly urban lifestyle. I can forget about bicycling or walking everywhere. The trade off is that I like OKC a lot, I know that there's a lot of opportunity here if you apply yourself, and I might have the chance to be in on actually building up a city.

That's the dilemma.

You are clearly thinking it through logically. I hope you stay. It might take longer to get downtown but not forever.

Career opportunites for sure sonnerguru!

Spartan - this is an excellent point. I do hear several people saying "It doesn't work that way". Well guess what, it does in fact work that way in a lot of places. I work with people here in Atlanta that make $60,000 less than 2 years out of college. Now people in OKC can go on and on about lower cost of living blah blah blah. OKC has been tooting that horn for 103 years and people aren't buying it.

My car cost exactly the same in Oklahoma City as it did in Jacksonville. My DirectTv cost the same in OKC as it does in Jacksonville. My new TV cost the same at the Best Buy in OKC as it did at the Best Buy in Jacksonville. Food might be less expensive but that isn't a big deal to me because half of my meals come from the McDonalds dollar menu or the Taco Bell 89cent menu anyhow.

The wage issue in Oklahoma might be because people there don't change jobs very much and just rely on 3% annual increases. When people don't change jobs it takes the pressure off wages because employers don't have to compete to keep employees. When people at the top and middle layers of management don't apply wage pressure it is impossible for people at the bottom to benefit via higher starting wages. So we simply move away.

Bringing additional companies to Oklahoma would be abig help because it provides more options for people to increase their income via new employment at all levels of experience. Agree Kerry. Bringing additional companies to Oklahoma and stable companies for that matter would just snowball into more diverse people moving to our State and also have a solid variety of different types of jobs whether it's Accounting, Finance, Banking. I think Oklahoma needs more white collar jobs because it tends to attract college educated people that have higher disposable incomes or are on their way to acheiving it. It is good to have energy jobs in Oklahoma, however, it needs more industry that stays more constant at not so voliatle. Sadly, there are a "few" people on this thread that continually say that Oklahoma most likely cannot attract Fortune 500 companies and that we need to work "only" on existing businesses. I am sorry, but I do not buy into this mindset. Staying the same is not progress to me!

Housing is tons cheaper. That is the biggest thing. Insurance is slightly higher. Food is cheaper. That is what I've noticed. Can't compare the utilities but seems like water was a lot cheaper back east when we first moved there. My kids (from nyc) couldn't get over how much cheaper movies, restaurants and entertainment are.

Thanks PennyQuilts.

I bet we can guess why insurance is more expensive in OKC..

See, here's what I'm looking at, to share the concerns of a typical student fixing to graduate college soon with those who might be oblivious.. I have no outstanding loans for my education, and probably won't because of a scholarship, so I'm better off than most people.

I don't think there's any reason I won't be able to rent a nice downtown loft somewhere for a few years and continue to establish credit. It would be nice to not have to get a new car either if I can keep my SUV I've always had and just not use it very often, by either walking or bicycling everywhere..which will also keep the weight off.

From what I'm looking at, if I could just make $40/45k beginning salary somewhere like Seattle or Denver, or at least upper 30s in OKC, then I will be happy. I'm not at all asking for $50k or even $60k, not that it isn't impossible and not that I won't try, it's just being realistic. And you don't really make that much right out of arch school anyway, but there are definitely places you can go where architects are more in demand, such as the high-growth Sunbelt cities (Vegas, LA, Charlotte, Dallas, ATL).

In OKC? I don't know. I don't know how successful I would be at finding a place to live downtown in my price range, I wouldn't expect anything over $39k to begin with, I would probably break down and buy a new car, and I wouldn't be getting to live a truly urban lifestyle. I can forget about bicycling or walking everywhere. The trade off is that I like OKC a lot, I know that there's a lot of opportunity here if you apply yourself, and I might have the chance to be in on actually building up a city.

That's the dilemma. Nowhere do politics factor in. I consider myself pretty alone when it comes to political views that there isn't really anywhere that I would feel appreciated politically anyway, not that I'm so desperately seeking approval I need to be liked such as that.

At ~$40k you should be fine finding something in and around DT. For a nicer place expect $600 - $900 depending on sq. footage. Don't buy a car and if you do stay under $15k. With no student loans you will still have plenty left over for entertainment and savings. But if I were you I'd move to Denver.

See, here's what I'm looking at, to share the concerns of a typical student fixing to graduate college soon with those who might be oblivious.. I have no outstanding loans for my education, and probably won't because of a scholarship, so I'm better off than most people.

I don't think there's any reason I won't be able to rent a nice downtown loft somewhere for a few years and continue to establish credit. It would be nice to not have to get a new car either if I can keep my SUV I've always had and just not use it very often, by either walking or bicycling everywhere..which will also keep the weight off.

From what I'm looking at, if I could just make $40/45k beginning salary somewhere like Seattle or Denver, or at least upper 30s in OKC, then I will be happy. I'm not at all asking for $50k or even $60k, not that it isn't impossible and not that I won't try, it's just being realistic. And you don't really make that much right out of arch school anyway, but there are definitely places you can go where architects are more in demand, such as the high-growth Sunbelt cities (Vegas, LA, Charlotte, Dallas, ATL).

In OKC? I don't know. I don't know how successful I would be at finding a place to live downtown in my price range, I wouldn't expect anything over $39k to begin with, I would probably break down and buy a new car, and I wouldn't be getting to live a truly urban lifestyle. I can forget about bicycling or walking everywhere. The trade off is that I like OKC a lot, I know that there's a lot of opportunity here if you apply yourself, and I might have the chance to be in on actually building up a city.

That's the dilemma. Nowhere do politics factor in. I consider myself pretty alone when it comes to political views that there isn't really anywhere that I would feel appreciated politically anyway, not that I'm so desperately seeking approval I need to be liked such as that.

Hi Spartan, OKC@Heart here...your graduating from Architecture school...let me be the first to congratulate you and wish you all the sucess in the world...now I don't know how much you have been hearing about the reality of the job market in today's climate. Right now it is Bleak! I am not talking about the economy in general or even locally in OKC or Houston, Austin, or Dallas. Those markets are robust and are showing continued growth...in some areas. In the field of architecture it is very different. Was working at a busy downtown Architecture Firm where we could not hire people fast enough for the number of large mixed use development projects, residential highrise, and hospitality projects going on. Oct. of '08 we there was a bonus in effect of $4000 for anyone that had a friend that we could get hired. By the end of the month we had had our first round of layoffs and just before Thanksgiving a second. We went from 58 people plus to 18 in two months. Mine was the only project that was bringing in any money. Even though I was promised that I had nothing to worry about I knew with four kids at home that I had to start looking elsewhere and was greatfully successful. But it was only because the route I took was unconventional and creative that it worked. Dallas alone saw 300+ architects get laid off in the fall of '08 and having stayed in touch with my old firm know that they have had not one project since mine concluded in January of '09! They are now operating a skeleton crew! (Everyone else sorry for the saga)

My point in draging you through this is to realize that the market that you are coming into is saturated with experienced Architects and interns that are eager to take a job even at reduced wages just to be gainfully employed. If you think the coasts are going to be better consider this. We saw a huge influx of architects who were moving to Texas to flee the economic disaster in thier profession that was occuring and thought thier chances were better in Texas where the economy is doing better.

Be prepared to take what you can and I hope that you are able to prove me wrong and get a great position at a great firm, but remember your only value to a firm coming out of Arch school is cheap labor. You will not be able to contribute much beyond drafting and opining and improving on others ideas for quite a while just simply due to the vast nature of what is really expected of you that school could never even touch the surface on. There is also no short cut around it. Even if you focus only on the design side of it you will quickly fins out that your education was just a starter course that allowed you to speak a bit and understand some terminology. This is not intended to offend but to provide what I wish someone had prepared me for so that I could appropriately set my expectations right. It is truly a great and fascinating career, and one that you will make more at the longer you stay with it. But it does not have large jumps in salary.

If you ever had aspirations to get another degree now is the time to do it! Let things settle and come recover more. Architecture is still reeling since the credit markets have not loosened up it is all finance and not the merits of the projects. It is the unfortunate state of things in your chosen profession.

You mean it isn't? Prove it. Prove that we're better off staying in OKC than moving to Dallas, Denver, Chicago, etc.. because you have contempt for an urban lifestyle doesn't mean that it's not what most younger people are looking for. It is. This post screams, "I know what's best for you, and the urban lifestyle is bogus." I think it's that mentality right there..as long as the majority of people roll their eyes at OKC trying to retain and lure recent college grads, you won't see any change.

I've seen this sanctimonious "Yeah, 'urban lifestyle' whatever" message from a majority of the older posters in this thread, and it is indicative somewhat of how the majority of people in this city feel. So what is the "accepted" lifestyle for a recent college graduate here? We should be living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment off of the NW Expressway with an old clunker to get around eating crackers because we can't afford meals? No thank you. I won't live that lifestyle, even if it means I won't be back in OKC for a while.

I know that for the majority you know how the "real world" is, or in OKC at least. Nobody gets a good job right out of college. So when people start talking about how they want to at least have a decent job, doing something meaningful, able to support themselves decently out of college, you all kind of roll your eyes and say "it doesn't work like that." I realize it doesn't work like that here, but believe it or not, there are other places where you don't get crappy jobs right out of college. I know this is a shock.

Easy bud, dont get too up in arms. Its a personal choice where someone feels they are better off. I was just giving my opinion. Anyone that lives in the cities you listed will tell you that the cost of living is more expensive, so yah, I feel better off here.
Also, I have no contempt for the urban lifestyle. I 100% support it. Pretty sure I said the problem is grads and young adults moving to these type of areas.
Hint: OKC is moving in the right direction trying to develop a more urban lifestyle. If you have to eat crackers, drive a clunker, and live in a crappy apartment in OKC, I have a feeling youre not going to be much better off any other place.
Correct me if I took it the wrong way, but you think its automatic to get a crappy job out of college here? All my close friends that had a job within a month of graduating (within the last 3 years) and 7 out of 8 made above $50,000 and 2 of them make above around or above $70,000. Of about 25 people I know that have settled in OKC after college I know for a fact that every one of them made over 40k straight out of college. Is this a ton of money? I dont think so, but I would say it is respectable for a first job out of college.
Im sorry you took my post way out of context. Ill try to be more clear next time.

You mean it isn't? Prove it. Prove that we're better off staying in OKC than moving to Dallas, Denver, Chicago, etc.. because you have contempt for an urban lifestyle doesn't mean that it's not what most younger people are looking for. It is. This post screams, "I know what's best for you, and the urban lifestyle is bogus." I think it's that mentality right there..as long as the majority of people roll their eyes at OKC trying to retain and lure recent college grads, you won't see any change.

I've seen this sanctimonious "Yeah, 'urban lifestyle' whatever" message from a majority of the older posters in this thread, and it is indicative somewhat of how the majority of people in this city feel. So what is the "accepted" lifestyle for a recent college graduate here? We should be living in a cheap 1 bedroom apartment off of the NW Expressway with an old clunker to get around eating crackers because we can't afford meals? No thank you. I won't live that lifestyle, even if it means I won't be back in OKC for a while.

I know that for the majority you know how the "real world" is, or in OKC at least. Nobody gets a good job right out of college. So when people start talking about how they want to at least have a decent job, doing something meaningful, able to support themselves decently out of college, you all kind of roll your eyes and say "it doesn't work like that." I realize it doesn't work like that here, but believe it or not, there are other places where you don't get crappy jobs right out of college. I know this is a shock.

Easy bud, dont get too up in arms. Its a personal choice where someone feels they are better off. I was just giving my opinion. Anyone that lives in the cities you listed will tell you that the cost of living is more expensive, so yah, I feel better off here.
Also, I have no contempt for the urban lifestyle. I 100% support it. Pretty sure I said the problem is grads and young adults moving to these type of areas.
Hint: OKC is moving in the right direction trying to develop a more urban lifestyle. If you have to eat crackers, drive a clunker, and live in a crappy apartment in OKC, I have a feeling youre not going to be much better off any other place.
Correct me if I took it the wrong way, but you think its automatic to get a crappy job out of college here? All my close friends that had a job within a month of graduating (within the last 3 years) and 7 out of 8 made above $50,000 and 2 of them make above around or above $70,000. Of about 25 people I know that have settled in OKC after college I know for a fact that every one of them made over 40k straight out of college. Is this a ton of money? I dont think so, but I would say it is respectable for a first job out of college.
Im sorry you took my post way out of context. Ill try to be more clear next time.

Just returned from a visit to family in Oklahoma and when I recounted the classmates I graduated with many years ago, very few still lived in my hometown or even in the State. that made me wonder what are the top reasons that our young adults leave the State and what can or should our two major cities do to stem the tide?

1. lack of diversity in the job sector

theres simply not enough good jobs here. theres a huge gap between jobs that pay slighty above minimum wage like in the restaurant and retail sector, and those jobs that demand heavy college requisites but pay outstandingly well and are filled by the few applicants that actually possess everything needed to fill those jobs. other than that, theres hardly anything between.

2. lack of shopping & eating establishments.

yeah, okc has a great deal of restaurants, but if you go to l.a., dallas, kansas city, etc youll see many other types of restaurants we dont yet have: both chain restaurants and very upscale exquisite ones too.

shopping. theres not enough upscale shopping establishments. no nieman marcus, nordstroms, armani, etc. young people like to be trendy, and they flock to places that are trend-setting. okc needs to adopt this example or remain in the dust of the fashion world.

the malls here are dying as well. crossroads mall is pretty much on its deathbed. heritage park mall has been on life support for about the past 15 years. theres really only 3 malls left in the okc area: quail, penn, and sooner and for a metro population of about 1/2 a million that simply doesnt suffice. not to mention these malls stand about 20 miles apart from each other.

3. lack of effective transporation. theres simply not enough stretches of freeway in the city to effectively connect all the areas without having someone needlessly drive or meander around for a few unneeded miles just to get to another highway. compare okcs highway infrastructure to dallas'. sure dallas may have more congestion on their highways to due their higher populous, but their highway infrastructure is far superior. to give you an idea: imagine no cars at all in both cities and youre the sole driver in each city. in the dallas area youre going to drive fewer miles to get where you need to go in geographic relatively compared to okc's highway infrastructure.

the highways themself are purely outdated: no hov lanes, the on-ramps and off-ramps are ridiculously short. if okc expects to achieve a higher populous, they need to begin to lay down the remodeling to accomodate one. the way the highways are laid out now would cause severe congestion and headaches if okc's population were to double overnight. okc simply isnt prepared and isnt making any strides towards getting prepared. it took an act of congress to finally widen I-35 between okc and norman, but is this going to sufficient? time will surely tell.

theres no light rails here. no light rail train service that connects edmond to norman or downtown in between. the buses need to operate on extended daily schedules and adopt better routes.

4. lack of new apartments. the majority of okcs apartments are at least 25 yrs old. there are few new complexes that have been built in the last 25 years. when youre speaking of the age demographic that the op is referencing, the majority of this lot resides in apartments either permanently, or upon relocating to a new city before investing in a house.

1. lack of diversity in the job sector

theres simply not enough good jobs here. theres a huge gap between jobs that pay slighty above minimum wage like in the restaurant and retail sector, and those jobs that demand heavy college requisites but pay outstandingly well and are filled by the few applicants that actually possess everything needed to fill those jobs. other than that, theres hardly anything between.

2. lack of shopping & eating establishments.

yeah, okc has a great deal of restaurants, but if you go to l.a., dallas, kansas city, etc youll see many other types of restaurants we dont yet have: both chain restaurants and very upscale exquisite ones too.

shopping. theres not enough upscale shopping establishments. no nieman marcus, nordstroms, armani, etc. young people like to be trendy, and they flock to places that are trend-setting. okc needs to adopt this example or remain in the dust of the fashion world.

the malls here are dying as well. crossroads mall is pretty much on its deathbed. heritage park mall has been on life support for about the past 15 years. theres really only 3 malls left in the okc area: quail, penn, and sooner and for a metro population of about 1/2 a million that simply doesnt suffice. not to mention these malls stand about 20 miles apart from each other.

3. lack of effective transporation. theres simply not enough stretches of freeway in the city to effectively connect all the areas without having someone needlessly drive or meander around for a few unneeded miles just to get to another highway. compare okcs highway infrastructure to dallas'. sure dallas may have more congestion on their highways to due their higher populous, but their highway infrastructure is far superior. to give you an idea: imagine no cars at all in both cities and youre the sole driver in each city. in the dallas area youre going to drive fewer miles to get where you need to go in geographic relatively compared to okc's highway infrastructure.

the highways themself are purely outdated: no hov lanes, the on-ramps and off-ramps are ridiculously short. if okc expects to achieve a higher populous, they need to begin to lay down the remodeling to accomodate one. the way the highways are laid out now would cause severe congestion and headaches if okc's population were to double overnight. okc simply isnt prepared and isnt making any strides towards getting prepared. it took an act of congress to finally widen I-35 between okc and norman, but is this going to sufficient? time will surely tell.

theres no light rails here. no light rail train service that connects edmond to norman or downtown in between. the buses need to operate on extended daily schedules and adopt better routes.

4. lack of new apartments. the majority of okcs apartments are at least 25 yrs old. there are few new complexes that have been built in the last 25 years. when youre speaking of the age demographic that the op is referencing, the majority of this lot resides in apartments either permanently, or upon relocating to a new city before investing in a house.

I thought that I read somewhere that there are talks of putting HOV lanes on I 35 and some on the Broadway Extension, plus light rail is coming in the near future, as for malls, I agree either we need better malls (I doubt that will happen because Malls are dying) or better shops in malls.

Spartan - this is an excellent point. I do hear several people saying "It doesn't work that way". Well guess what, it does in fact work that way in a lot of places. I work with people here in Atlanta that make $60,000 less than 2 years out of college. Now people in OKC can go on and on about lower cost of living blah blah blah. OKC has been tooting that horn for 103 years and people aren't buying it.

My car cost exactly the same in Oklahoma City as it did in Jacksonville. My DirectTv cost the same in OKC as it does in Jacksonville. My new TV cost the same at the Best Buy in OKC as it did at the Best Buy in Jacksonville. Food might be less expensive but that isn't a big deal to me because half of my meals come from the McDonalds dollar menu or the Taco Bell 89cent menu anyhow.

The wage issue in Oklahoma might be because people there don't change jobs very much and just rely on 3% annual increases. When people don't change jobs it takes the pressure off wages because employers don't have to compete to keep employees. When people at the top and middle layers of management don't apply wage pressure it is impossible for people at the bottom to benefit via higher starting wages. So we simply move away.

Bringing additional companies to Oklahoma would be abig help because it provides more options for people to increase their income via new employment at all levels of experience.


You are correct that bringing new companies to Oklahoma would provide more options to college grads with all levels of experience. Contact the R2W clan on that one and see where they are hiding all of the high paying jobs at.
Good luck on that.

The problem that I see with most college grads in todays climate is that they want to start at the top and not work their way up the ladder.
Ex. My father in law is a top exec with OG&E. He has been with the company for 30 years or so, been in various mgt positions for last 25 years or so. He has his MBA as well as other various degrees.
He started with the company reading meters out of college. Does this sound familiar to anyone on this thread. Some of you think that you are to good to start at the bottom and rapidly move up the corporate ladder. Thats the problem here. Get the damn job and move up the food chain. That college degree is no substitute for on the job experience. It just gets your foot in the door, nothing more.

I myself am a college grad. The difference here is that I kept that in perspective. I got an entry level job out of college and worked up the chain, then I went out and opened my own business. That degree allowed me to compete and surpass other candidates when it came promotion time.

The moral of the story, that college degree and a suit from the Mens Warehouse doesnt make you any more qualified to do a job than other applicant with similiar qualifications. Get a job, get some experience, move up the ladder or move on to Jacksonville or wherever. Most employers want the experience as well as the degree. Just a perspective from a business owner is his mid 40's. Take it for what its worth.....It may not mean anything to you.

Thanks PennyQuilts.

I bet we can guess why insurance is more expensive in OKC..

What they told us was that we had to get uninsured motorist coverage separately (other places allow it to be part of the regular coverage). We ended up getting more medical coverage on us but still included some uninisured motorist coverage to make sure passengers would have some help if something bad happened.

You are correct that bringing new companies to Oklahoma would provide more options to college grads with all levels of experience. Contact the R2W clan on that one and see where they are hiding all of the high paying jobs at.
Good luck on that.

The problem that I see with most college grads in todays climate is that they want to start at the top and not work their way up the ladder.
Ex. My father in law is a top exec with OG&E. He has been with the company for 30 years or so, been in various mgt positions for last 25 years or so. He has his MBA as well as other various degrees.
He started with the company reading meters out of college. Does this sound familiar to anyone on this thread. Some of you think that you are to good to start at the bottom and rapidly move up the corporate ladder. Thats the problem here. Get the damn job and move up the food chain. That college degree is no substitute for on the job experience. It just gets your foot in the door, nothing more.

I myself am a college grad. The difference here is that I kept that in perspective. I got an entry level job out of college and worked up the chain, then I went out and opened my own business. That degree allowed me to compete and surpass other candidates when it came promotion time.

The moral of the story, that college degree and a suit from the Mens Warehouse doesnt make you any more qualified to do a job than other applicant with similiar qualifications. Get a job, get some experience, move up the ladder or move on to Jacksonville or wherever. Most employers want the experience as well as the degree. Just a perspective from a business owner is his mid 40's. Take it for what its worth.....It may not mean anything to you. I do have to say this. A college degree makes one more marketable and brings tremendous value and shows an employer that a person worked on a goal and obtained the goal! Why should someone who went to 4 years of college and not only got their specialized degree but had to learn about communication skills, compiling term papers, interpersonal skills etc;;;; and spend a lot of money to obtain that degree. It's true there is no guarantee one will land the perfect job right away, however, if I were an employer, I would hire someone with a college degree over one that did not have one simply because they can potentially offer an employer more skill sets and took the effort and time to get that degree! Why should one have to settle for less? I realize this is an employers market, but I would much more want to utilize an employee with a degree into a higher paying position and realize their potential and certainly adds value to an organization.

R2W may not be the job plethora it was thought to be but thats because every surrounding state and many other states also have it. We're just another R2W state now. However, it certainly doesn't hurt. I still say figuring out a way to eliminate our corporate income tax would be the best way to locating and attracting new businesses to OK.

1. lack of diversity in the job sector

theres simply not enough good jobs here. theres a huge gap between jobs that pay slighty above minimum wage like in the restaurant and retail sector, and those jobs that demand heavy college requisites but pay outstandingly well and are filled by the few applicants that actually possess everything needed to fill those jobs. other than that, theres hardly anything between.

2. lack of shopping & eating establishments.

yeah, okc has a great deal of restaurants, but if you go to l.a., dallas, kansas city, etc youll see many other types of restaurants we dont yet have: both chain restaurants and very upscale exquisite ones too.

shopping. theres not enough upscale shopping establishments. no nieman marcus, nordstroms, armani, etc. young people like to be trendy, and they flock to places that are trend-setting. okc needs to adopt this example or remain in the dust of the fashion world.

the malls here are dying as well. crossroads mall is pretty much on its deathbed. heritage park mall has been on life support for about the past 15 years. theres really only 3 malls left in the okc area: quail, penn, and sooner and for a metro population of about 1/2 a million that simply doesnt suffice. not to mention these malls stand about 20 miles apart from each other.

3. lack of effective transporation. theres simply not enough stretches of freeway in the city to effectively connect all the areas without having someone needlessly drive or meander around for a few unneeded miles just to get to another highway. compare okcs highway infrastructure to dallas'. sure dallas may have more congestion on their highways to due their higher populous, but their highway infrastructure is far superior. to give you an idea: imagine no cars at all in both cities and youre the sole driver in each city. in the dallas area youre going to drive fewer miles to get where you need to go in geographic relatively compared to okc's highway infrastructure.

the highways themself are purely outdated: no hov lanes, the on-ramps and off-ramps are ridiculously short. if okc expects to achieve a higher populous, they need to begin to lay down the remodeling to accomodate one. the way the highways are laid out now would cause severe congestion and headaches if okc's population were to double overnight. okc simply isnt prepared and isnt making any strides towards getting prepared. it took an act of congress to finally widen I-35 between okc and norman, but is this going to sufficient? time will surely tell.

theres no light rails here. no light rail train service that connects edmond to norman or downtown in between. the buses need to operate on extended daily schedules and adopt better routes.

4. lack of new apartments. the majority of okcs apartments are at least 25 yrs old. there are few new complexes that have been built in the last 25 years. when youre speaking of the age demographic that the op is referencing, the majority of this lot resides in apartments either permanently, or upon relocating to a new city before investing in a house.

decepticobra,
These are exactly the kind of constructive observations I was seeking when I started this thread and they align with what I most hear. If anyone knows how to reach City leaders at City Hall or the Chamber, I recommend they compile and submit these areas that need addressing in order to improve the likelyhood of retaining and growing the young adult demographic. Also, the office that was established to try and get former residents to return (forgot what it was called). But I also think city leaders will respond when the young populous begins to demand these types of ammenities through involvement at city hall. I understand government cannot do what private industry must BUT they can possibly construct tax policy and incentives, create the infrastructure and lifestyle options needed (They are doing that with Maps3), I simply think its time for OKC to truly make the leap to prominence.

1. lack of diversity in the job sector

theres simply not enough good jobs here. theres a huge gap between jobs that pay slighty above minimum wage like in the restaurant and retail sector, and those jobs that demand heavy college requisites but pay outstandingly well and are filled by the few applicants that actually possess everything needed to fill those jobs. other than that, theres hardly anything between.

OKC leaders are trying to address that. Right now is a good time to discuss bringing in-between jobs to OKC, but the economy is in a slump right now so it is hard to tell or even gauge what can be done when so few companies are hiring or even start to convince a stagnant company to move to OKC.

This is why I place a great emphasis on growing startup companies in OKC. But no one on this board is even listening to me.


2. lack of shopping & eating establishments.

yeah, okc has a great deal of restaurants, but if you go to l.a., dallas, kansas city, etc youll see many other types of restaurants we dont yet have: both chain restaurants and very upscale exquisite ones too.

OKC is working on this. But you guys keep comparing OKC, which just established itself, to Dallas and KC which have been established cities since the 1960's.


shopping. theres not enough upscale shopping establishments. no nieman marcus, nordstroms, armani, etc. young people like to be trendy, and they flock to places that are trend-setting. okc needs to adopt this example or remain in the dust of the fashion world.

That is a changing dynamic that is not far away from coming to fruition. Unfortunately, people aren't patient enough.


the malls here are dying as well. crossroads mall is pretty much on its deathbed. heritage park mall has been on life support for about the past 15 years. theres really only 3 malls left in the okc area: quail, penn, and sooner and for a metro population of about 1/2 a million that simply doesnt suffice. not to mention these malls stand about 20 miles apart from each other.

You're talking about malls that are in bad locations. Why were malls even put in MWC or southeast OKC? The demographics that used to support those two malls are gone. You are forgetteng that Sooner Mall, Quails Springs Mall and Penn Square Mall are all in good locations, and don't have space to accomodate the stores you mentioned at Penn. Plus, the days of building indoor malls are over.

You also forget that two open air lifestyle centers - the 21st Century version of a mall - are in under development in Norman and northwest OKC. The lifestyle center in NW OKC, Tuscana, is on track according to the developers of the project I spoke with last month. That should alleviate the lack of good retail in OKC.

Edmond has Spring Creek, but it is all occupied.


3. lack of effective transporation. theres simply not enough stretches of freeway in the city to effectively connect all the areas without having someone needlessly drive or meander around for a few unneeded miles just to get to another highway. compare okcs highway infrastructure to dallas'. sure dallas may have more congestion on their highways to due their higher populous, but their highway infrastructure is far superior. to give you an idea: imagine no cars at all in both cities and youre the sole driver in each city. in the dallas area youre going to drive fewer miles to get where you need to go in geographic relatively compared to okc's highway infrastructure.

I have to disagree. OKC has a freeway system large enough to serve a metro area its size. The layout is better than OKC, but that is not enough to impress me to move to Dallas.

The Kilpatrick is due to complete its loop around OKC this decade. I-235/I-44 is building a stack interchange starting later this year and due to be completed in 2013. I-240/I-35 is doing the same in 2014.

I-40 is six-laning all the way to Choctaw Rd. beginning in 2011. I-35 will be six-laned near Remington Park in 2011.

If OKC had the growth rate of DFW, you'd see a ton of more highway construction, but at 13% a decade, you simply can't start building giant freeways on command.


the highways themself are purely outdated: no hov lanes, the on-ramps and off-ramps are ridiculously short. if okc expects to achieve a higher populous, they need to begin to lay down the remodeling to accomodate one. the way the highways are laid out now would cause severe congestion and headaches if okc's population were to double overnight. okc simply isnt prepared and isnt making any strides towards getting prepared. it took an act of congress to finally widen I-35 between okc and norman, but is this going to sufficient? time will surely tell.

You need to get a copy of ODOT's long range transportation plan for OKC. What you just said is very inaccurate by claiming OKC isn't making strides. It's about funding, and 20% of our federal highway funds go to other states.



theres no light rails here. no light rail train service that connects edmond to norman or downtown in between. the buses need to operate on extended daily schedules and adopt better routes.

I guess you missed all of the light rail discussion going on as of late, beginning with light rail in MAPS 3.



4. lack of new apartments. the majority of okcs apartments are at least 25 yrs old. there are few new complexes that have been built in the last 25 years. when youre speaking of the age demographic that the op is referencing, the majority of this lot resides in apartments either permanently, or upon relocating to a new city before investing in a house.

I agree, but that can only change with demand. A lot of new complexes went up by Quail Springs Mall and more are being built in Edmond.

Just FYI stuff for you. ;)

This is why I place a great emphasis on growing startup companies in OKC. But no one on this board is even listening to me.

How does a state emphasize growing its startup companies? I'd be interested in ideas?

And you think that is a logical answer? It doesn't fly. Many people move other places for many reasons, not just Sally Kern style politics.

You're basing your conclusion on the assumption that every person that leaves is a liberal victim of Sally Kern.

I didnt say it was the only reason, it just adds to the list of reasons to leave.
Its the root of ignorant people, who want to stay in the past.
"We dont try to do because we never tried it before."
Diversity is the 180 degrees from Ignorance/Homogamy.
Diversity of economics, work opportunities and the lack of reasonable compensation for educational background in this City.
Diversity of quality of life and leisure,dining,sports,fitness.
Diversity of health services..
My point once more is DIVERSITY is more likely to attract the young and keep them here, then ignorant and refusal to ADAPT to the real world.
And Sally Kern is the face of Ignorance.

I didnt say it was the only reason, it just adds to the list of reasons to leave.
Its the root of ignorant people, who want to stay in the past.
"We dont try to do because we never tried it before."
Diversity is the 180 degrees from Ignorance/Homogamy.
Diversity of economics, work opportunities and the lack of reasonable compensation for educational background in this City.
Diversity of quality of life and leisure,dining,sports,fitness.
Diversity of health services..
My point once more is DIVERSITY is more likely to attract the young and keep them here, then ignorant and refusal to ADAPT to the real world.
And Sally Kern is the face of Ignorance.

Oh, GM, Texas is full of liberals and its full of people who think like Sally Kern, but people are moving to Texas by the car load. She is a mole on the states face and not much more. She has no real influence other than the press coverage she gets for her silly legistlation attempts. This won't get far.

I didnt say it was the only reason, it just adds to the list of reasons to leave.
Its the root of ignorant people, who want to stay in the past.
"We dont try to do because we never tried it before."
Diversity is the 180 degrees from Ignorance/Homogamy.
Diversity of economics, work opportunities and the lack of reasonable compensation for educational background in this City.
Diversity of quality of life and leisure,dining,sports,fitness.
Diversity of health services..
My point once more is DIVERSITY is more likely to attract the young and keep them here, then ignorant and refusal to ADAPT to the real world.
And Sally Kern is the face of Ignorance.

It's not stopping me from wanting to move back to OKC so I can make a difference. I could give a rats ass about Sally or her views. She's a government temp, nothing more.

OKC matters enough to me for me to want to leave behind a legacy there. OKC matters enough to me to see my own visions for OKC come to fruition.

And OKC is certainly not the root of ignorant people who want to stay in the past. There are people that do, but they've lived past their prime. If OKC truly wanted to stay in the past, MAPS would have never happened. If OKC was truly the root of ignorance, an openly gay legislator would never have been elected the first time around.

How does a state emphasize growing its startup companies? I'd be interested in ideas?

For starters there are organizations such as I2E that help startup tech companies in Oklahoma. There are a number of programs that I2E offers suhc as the Oklahoma Technology Commercialization Center, Technology Business Finance Program and the Oklahoma Seed Capital Fund.

i2E - Turning Innovation Into Enterprise (http://www.i2e.org)

The Oklahoma Career Planner also gives good resources on starting a business.

okcareerplanner.com

And Oklahoma Commerce department is very helpful for people looking to start a business or company in our state.

Oklahoma wants you to thrive here as an entrepreneur, but there can be more takers.

It's easier to foster an Oklahoma entrepreneur than it is to try and woo a corporate relocation on a 50/50 chance it will happen.

And OKC is certainly not the root of ignorant people who want to stay in the past.

I didnt say OKC was the root of ignorance, I said the thing that bred Sally Kern was.

Read slowly.

How does a state emphasize growing its startup companies? I'd be interested in ideas?

By buiding this so OSU can have a place to send some of its college graduates while keeping them in Oklahoma and Stillwater: Oklahoma Technology & Research Park (http://www.oktechpark.com/)

Thanks PennyQuilts.

I bet we can guess why insurance is more expensive in OKC..
...and it's even more expensive down here.

As far as the mall issue, the older enclosed ones are on the decline all over the country, they have torn down a few in the Dallas area even back when I lived there. Barton Creek (South Austin) and Lakeline Malls (Far Northwest) are still in pretty good shape, Highland Mall (Near North Central) is about to close up, that is pretty much it for the traditional malls in the Austin area so OKC is not that much different. You also have the "big box malls" all over which have taken the place of the traditional mall.

Even some of the new lifestyle centers are having troubles even here in Austin. We went out to Hill Country Galleria right after it opened last spring, we went out there again a week before Christmas and about a third of the stores that opened initially were closed or had signs indicating they were closing. There have been several of the high end stores in The Domain that have closed in the past year. It is going to be awhile before most are in expansion mode, good half of the spots in Phase II of The Domain are still not leased and Phase III is postponed indefinitely and that center has a subsidy from The City of Austin.

And to the highway situation, Dallas has never been prepared for growth, they wait until everything is a complete mess before starting on anything. When I lived in Dallas they had just started working on Central Expressway which was still as it was in the 70's. If you went out to Ikea/Stonebrier Mall in Frisco even 5 years ago it was a complete mess, when I lived there 121 was a two lane blacktop in the middle of empty fields it still wasn't any better 20 years later, only now the toll road replacing 121 is being completed. All highway building is slow, that is the nature of governmental funding and it affects all states and you can't really "plan ahead" as much as the general public would like to think. In fact ODOT/OTA has built ahead much more than most cities are able to.

Apartments, there was a boom of new ones 10 years ago or so but for the most part they were were really just updated versions of the same 'ole thing built 30 years ago.

...and yes, the architecture job market sucks right now everywhere. A few years ago we had thought about moving to Denver and this was kind of the year we had chosen...well that ain't happening. I have checked the job boards on AIA-Colorado and the Boston Society of Architects for quite a few years, two years ago on AIA-Colorado there would be 40-50 positions (not just architect positions but all positions) and for most of the past year there have been 1-3 positions per month including just two this month. The BSA job board would have 200-300 listings, this month there are 17 listings.

Spartan - don't wait to enter the job market. Take what you can get and whatever you do, do not go back to school for another degree. Back when I was an engineering major one of my professors explained why you should enter the job market as soon as possible.

You only have X number of years to work and every year you delay it is one less income producing year. But it isn't income at the start of your career you lose, it is income at the end of your carrer that you lose. Every year you wait could cost you up to $200,000 in lost income.

Spartan - don't wait to enter the job market. Take what you can get and whatever you do, do not go back to school for another degree. Back when I was an engineering major one of my professors explained why you should enter the job market as soon as possible.

You only have X number of years to work and every year you delay it is one less income producing year. But it isn't income at the start of your career you lose, it is income at the end of your carrer that you lose. Every year you wait could cost you up to $200,000 in lost income.

Kerry,

Did you receive your engineering degree? My wife is pursuing hers.

I figure that I am working until the bitter end anyway, I don't think "retirement" like our parents knew is going to be feasible, so technically you wouldn't be losing a year. A former co-worker is in grad school at Houston, she was glad she worked two years before going back as it made her better prepared, she also felt it was easier since she had the actual work experience.

This is why I place a great emphasis on growing startup companies in OKC. But no one on this board is even listening to me.

I'm listening. It's a brilliant idea. It's what made Austin and so many other cities boom, and we've had a bunch of 'em here in OKC, too. These are the companies of the future. These are the Googles, Apples, etc. in someone's basement right now.

Business recruitment still happens, but it's not viewed as favorably as it once was. I do agree with Bluedog that we can get some relocations and expansions and we have to go after them, but it's just not yielding the results we would hope. These things usually involve bidding wars with other cities in a bonanza of incentives and giveaways. They are soul-sucking experiences that rarely yield results and are often a sham instigated by the company in bad faith to get a local giveaway from their city of headquarters. When I was in Cincinnati some of the local business owners joked how Proctor & Gamble pulls this stunt every couple of years or so to get the city to bend over, which of course the city does (and aren't we lucky to have companies like Devon who seem to give to the city as opposed to extorting it).

I'm not entirely sure how the city can aid these startup companies. We do have I2E funds and efforts have been made to increase access to VC and other funding sources.

But the creative class discussions a few years ago obviously got the attention of the people who need to be paying attention. It's true that these creative entrepreneurs are going to move where they want and where they are stimulated to create.

Everything we can do to improve quality of life is job number one in this endeavor.

I think another way is to attract venture capital money. Dallas and other parts of Texas are awash in it but they don't seem eager to venture north.

I'll say it again, OK needs to figure out a way to eliminate the corporate income tax.

I think another way is to attract venture capital money. Dallas and other parts of Texas are awash in it but they don't seem eager to venture north.

I'll say it again, OK needs to figure out a way to eliminate the corporate income tax.
Texas has a corporate tax, the franchise tax, based on income...so it is pretty much a corporate income tax just with a different name.

Texas Franchise Tax (http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/franchise/)

Texas has a corporate tax, the franchise tax, based on income...so it is pretty much a corporate income tax just with a different name.

Texas Franchise Tax (http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/franchise/)

And to add to that, Atlanta has been very successful in the corporate world... with a 6% corporate income tax. That would be the same rate as Oklahoma.

Not saying I support the tax, just saying that the argument is slowly losing credibility as to why Texas sucked up corporate relocations in the 1990s over Oklahoma.

And keep this in mind about your coveted Texas. Not a single state neighboring Texas exceeds 6 million residents, and Texas is about to hit 25 million. Just food for thought that Oklahoma is not the only one fighting for life because of Texas.

Texas has other incentives that OK doesn't. My opinion is still an elimination of the corporate tax would attract new businesses.

So Oklahoma is already one of the most overall lowest taxed states in the union.

So Oklahoma is already one of the most overall lowest taxed states in the union.

Not citizens, I'm referring to businesses.

But while we are at it, I'd be interested to see consideration of eliminating income tax on anyone over 60. Perhaps we could attract more wealthy seniors who spend large amounts of money on leisure activities and goods.

I figure that I am working until the bitter end anyway, I don't think "retirement" like our parents knew is going to be feasible, so technically you wouldn't be losing a year. A former co-worker is in grad school at Houston, she was glad she worked two years before going back as it made her better prepared, she also felt it was easier since she had the actual work experience.

Working to the end is the perfect example of why you should enter the job market as soon as possible. If you are now 20 and you will drop dead at age 60 that gives you 40 years to work. If you don't start working until you are 21 you now only have 39 years to work. Unless you remain single and childless someone will need that income you earned in the 40th year.

Now back on subject. Atlanta is able to recruit a lot of corporate headquarters for two reasons.

1. Companies coming to Atlanta are coming from even high corporate tax states (New York, Ohio, Illinois). Even if GA has a 6% rate it is still better than those other places.

2. Atlanta Hartsfield International Airport.

OKC can't compete with Hartsfield so it has to do even more where it can compete. One of the big mistakes OKC made was by not going after large companies based in Oklahoma like Philips, Conoco, Citgo and others. These are all companies that left Oklahoma eventually but might have stayed if they were in a larger city to begin with.

OKC should compile a list of the 25 largest companies in Oklahoma that are not based in OKC and try to get them to relocate. I would then compile similar list for every state that borders Oklahoma and recruit them.

Not citizens, I'm referring to businesses.

But while we are at it, I'd be interested to see consideration of eliminating income tax on anyone over 60. Perhaps we could attract more wealthy seniors who spend large amounts of money on leisure activities and goods.

Well, they've got lots of discretionary income, some of them. That being said, I used to struggle to keep bread on the table for my kids when they were little, working three jobs between us, and going to school. I am not begruding him, but my grandfather was a wealthy man and made more on his SS checks than I did working 50 hours a week. And frankly, he didn't spend much on the local economy in terms of restaurants, clothing, entertainment, etc. Just wasn't his style.

Not citizens, I'm referring to businesses.

But while we are at it, I'd be interested to see consideration of eliminating income tax on anyone over 60. Perhaps we could attract more wealthy seniors who spend large amounts of money on leisure activities and goods.

Start a thread "What does OKC need to attract and retain 60 year olds"

Well, they've got lots of discretionary income, some of them. That being said, I used to struggle to keep bread on the table for my kids when they were little, working three jobs between us, and going to school. I am not begruding him, but my grandfather was a wealthy man and made more on his SS checks than I did working 50 hours a week. And frankly, he didn't spend much on the local economy in terms of restaurants, clothing, entertainment, etc. Just wasn't his style.

Great point. People are much more thrifty when they hit a certain age and spend much less as a percentage of income on entertainment, dining, clothing, etc., regardless of their income or net worth.

Texas has other incentives that OK doesn't. My opinion is still an elimination of the corporate tax would attract new businesses.
I don't doubt that it could, I just get a bit tired of the fallacy that Texas doesn't have corporate taxes...which I hear from plenty of people. I can guarantee you the majority of corporations in Texas get absolutely no tax breaks or incentives.


Working to the end is the perfect example of why you should enter the job market as soon as possible. If you are now 20 and you will drop dead at age 60 that gives you 40 years to work. If you don't start working until you are 21 you now only have 39 years to work. Unless you remain single and childless someone will need that income you earned in the 40th year.
What does "another year working" matter if you aren't around to enjoy it? It doesn't matter to me how much I had when I am dead...because I am still dead. My view is "someone" can generate their own income, I am not concerned with providing for others after I am gone, as long as there is enough to take care of my body and bills that is fine with me (I am married but childless, we married around 40). I have pretty much told my parents that I could care less if there is any inheritance after they are gone, I would rather them spend the money on themselves and enjoy their remaining years instead, it is their money they earned and I have no automatic rights to it as an adult.

I also don't know if I want to retire, "retirement" like a former boss has is what I envision more than anything. He lives on the water in Kemah, sails a bunch and does a few projects a year...something like that is as close to retirement as I expect to get.


OKC should compile a list of the 25 largest companies in Oklahoma that are not based in OKC and try to get them to relocate. I would then compile similar list for every state that borders Oklahoma and recruit them.
The problem with that type of corporate relocation is 80% of the time they are just using you to get concessions in their home state, ala Mercruiser, most of the time it is not necessarily a wise investment. The ones it seems they have actively recruited and announced a move to Oklahoma have all seemed to fizzle out. You are usually much better off incubating an already local company.

At one time in the 70's 3M had planned to relocate to Austin from St. Paul, Minnesota, they built some research and manufacturing facilities but eventually they got concessions and incentives to stay in Minnesota. Those that do move end up turning into corporate Johns who are always looking for a cheaper whore in a few years because their shareholders are always demanding cost reductions.

And to add to that, Atlanta has been very successful in the corporate world... with a 6% corporate income tax. That would be the same rate as Oklahoma.

Not saying I support the tax, just saying that the argument is slowly losing credibility as to why Texas sucked up corporate relocations in the 1990s over Oklahoma.

And keep this in mind about your coveted Texas. Not a single state neighboring Texas exceeds 6 million residents, and Texas is about to hit 25 million. Just food for thought that Oklahoma is not the only one fighting for life because of Texas.

Keep in mind how large Tejas is too. Divide it up into 3 states or so and it puts it all into more perspective. They also have almost a million illegals and who knows how many. Its huge hispanic draw is also whats adds to a huge chunk of their population which is about 10,000,000+ I beleive. Ha the place isnt filled with 25,000,000 college educated high paid white collar workers (although they kinda advertise themselves that way).

Actually Texas is really about 5-6 distinct regions (could be construed as different states) combined into one, that is one reason why things are so dysfunctional down here on a political level. That is what came out of the secession discussion down here last year.

I don't doubt that it could, I just get a bit tired of the fallacy that Texas doesn't have corporate taxes...which I hear from plenty of people. I can guarantee you the majority of corporations in Texas get absolutely no tax breaks or incentives.

Like with individuals, to be able to say there is no income tax has a lot of psychological bearing and opens your eyes to the situation.

An important aspect of the Texas franchise tax is that it is only 1% for most entities where the OK Corporate Income Tax is, I believe, 6%. That 5% on, say, $1 billion in revenue is $50 million. Quite a chunk of change for most companies.

The problem with that type of corporate relocation is 80% of the time they are just using you to get concessions in their home state, ala Mercruiser, most of the time it is not necessarily a wise investment. The ones it seems they have actively recruited and announced a move to Oklahoma have all seemed to fizzle out. You are usually much better off incubating an already local company.

That is the difference between recruiting companies that are searching for relocation versus what essentially is a cold call.

My son was born in San Antonio,my secret is out.
And he has been fascinated since a young person, by the secessionist talk, but also the fact Texas can separate itself into additional 5 states (?), and each one can secede as well.

I can't help myself, I'm going to have to comment on this thread. I'd like to make some observations from someone who is on the other side of the table... that is, someone who works for one of the largest and wealthiest companies on the planet and often tries to hire college new hires.

I will say right off the bat that right to work is complete misdirection for the vast majority of this discussion. Take a look at the 2000 census... 75% or greater of the US population is now working in services... blue collar workers, the folks who actually unionize, are a tiny minority now. The influence of unions will be dead and buried within 25 years. It just doesn't matter, especially when you're a company that hires white collar people.

State income taxes... we don't care. Don't care! I can tell you exactly why we're here. Because of customer relationships, networking, and a decent sized pool of competitors that we can cannibalize from. This is really the key. Re-read this paragraph. All of the stuff that you guys have mentioned in this thread are nothing but red-herrings. The only way to get a company to move, stay, or grow here is appeal to it on it's #1 pocketbook issues... which are customer base, employee base, and supplier/vendor networking.

You want to attract more companies to OKC? For the love of God make more improvements to Will Rogers. I don't mean minor improvements, I mean do whatever it takes to get non-stop direct flights out of OKC to every major airport in the country. Pass a MAPS for WRWA and throw a $100 million at it. I am totally serious. You guys have no idea how hard it is to get corporate travelers to move to a non-hub city.

Want to get more companies to open up shop here? A lot of us hate bureaucracy more than taxes. Depending on industry Oklahoma is really quite the maze of laws and regulations when it comes to the specifics of your industry or even building your freaking building. And yet we still end up with structures that look cheap and have no landscaping. It's just amazing. I seriously know business managers who have swarn never to open another business in certain central Oklahoma cities because of it. We need to work on this.

The reason I mention all of the above is because if you want to attract college grads you need good jobs here, which means you need good businesses. The city really needs to focus on these types of things.

As far as attracting grads... well it's really quite simple. Offer salaries that are competitive on the national level. It blows my mind that so many companies have such low salaries here. A big reason for this is that so many companies here are small and medium sized companies... so again this goes back to the above statements about attracting large companies. The thing that small companies don't realize is that higher-paid grads are so much more productive because it's so much more competitive at that level. For example ever seen that scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker breaks a pool stick in half, throws it on the floor, and tells two henchmen that he only has room for one more on his staff and to make it quick... LOL... it's kind of like that. If you're waving big bucks around you are going to get very good people applying from all over the place. Good people means better business which translates into higher profits. Having set in on many interviews before it is clear as day that this is the case.

Next, I think you guys are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking how do we keep our kids from leaving this state, we really should be asking how can we get kids from other states that are here for college interested in permanently moving to Oklahoma. To be blunt no one wants to move here, so you have to offer them more money or at least be competitive with wherever they're coming from. Competitive doesn't necessarily have to mean salary.

The reason this is important is because it goes back to the networking comment I made. If a college grad has lots of his or her friends moving to this state, friends from college sticking around, or at least people in their own field here they can relate to, that is going to help nudge them in our direction.

Part of what needs to be done is companies need to spend some budget on recruiting and internship programs. They need to make their presence known at local colleges and universities... it is amazing to me how many people I talk to on a daily basis who don't even know that the company I work for has offices here. Not enough companies are doing this, so that means the city and state need to enact incentives and policies that will encourage them to do this.

The city needs to continue to support the Greater Grads program, which is a program that we and many other companies send our interns to throughout the summer so that they can network with other interns and get a bit of a sales job from city leaders on why it is a good idea to stay in OKC. I got the opportunity to hear Mayor Cornett speak and meet him at the final Greater Grads program this summer where they honored the company sponsors of the program and that man is just great in my opinion. The type of things that the program was doing to promote this state and how they were doing it directly to their target audience was spot on with the type of things we need to be doing to keep kids here.

This next part isn't going to set well with uber-conservatives... but the fact is the city and state need to spend some money. The program above I just mentioned? Double it's funding. The lack of internships and what not at large companies in the metro due to budget concerns I mentioned? Offer major tax incentives to make it worthwhile to have interns around. I think if a lot of older companies had the chance to see how productive this generation is they might just make them an offer to stay around. Someone in another thread mentioned that it's hard to stay here when you have student loans to pay off... well get serious and offer to pay off their loans if a college grad stays here and works for a company for x number of years. This could be done through some kind of tax rebate, or maybe by giving companies an incentive to offer some kind of bonus large enough to pay off the debt.

All the other stuff... comments about extremist attitudes, not enough diverse people, etc. will all kind of correct themselves if this is done. I mean part of the reason we don't have some of the cool businesses and recreational activities of other states is simply because we don't have the demographics to support it. In the recent past I myself toyed with the idea of starting a business here on the side, basically being the money/business and partnering with someone who would be the operator, but after some review it really came down to the fact that there weren't enough people in the target demographic in OKC to make it worthwhile.

I think mayor Cornett's observations of trying to create a Raleigh Research Triangle here in OKC are a very good, strategic way of attempting to accomplish this. Such a move would attract more college grads here, which over time potentially increases the customer, supplier, employee, and competitor bases. Eventually you hit a critical mass.

I think places like Seattle and Phoenix benefited greatly in the last century from being located so geographically close to the high population bases of LA, San Fran, and other California cities. Many people tired of living in the rat race of California moved on to more affordable, quieter but still bustling communities. If you think about it, really today Texas is California, and we are Washington state. There are lessons to be learned there....

I can't help myself, I'm going to have to comment on this thread. I'd like to make some observations from someone who is on the other side of the table... that is, someone who works for one of the largest and wealthiest companies on the planet and often tries to hire college new hires.

I will say right off the bat that right to work is complete misdirection for the vast majority of this discussion. Take a look at the 2000 census... 75% or greater of the US population is now working in services... blue collar workers, the folks who actually unionize, are a tiny minority now. The influence of unions will be dead and buried within 25 years. It just doesn't matter, especially when you're a company that hires white collar people.

State income taxes... we don't care. Don't care! I can tell you exactly why we're here. Because of customer relationships, networking, and a decent sized pool of competitors that we can cannibalize from. This is really the key. Re-read this paragraph. All of the stuff that you guys have mentioned in this thread are nothing but red-herrings. The only way to get a company to move, stay, or grow here is appeal to it on it's #1 pocketbook issues... which are customer base, employee base, and supplier/vendor networking.

You want to attract more companies to OKC? For the love of God make more improvements to Will Rogers. I don't mean minor improvements, I mean do whatever it takes to get non-stop direct flights out of OKC to every major airport in the country. Pass a MAPS for WRWA and throw a $100 million at it. I am totally serious. You guys have no idea how hard it is to get corporate travelers to move to a non-hub city.

Want to get more companies to open up shop here? A lot of us hate bureaucracy more than taxes. Depending on industry Oklahoma is really quite the maze of laws and regulations when it comes to the specifics of your industry or even building your freaking building. And yet we still end up with structures that look cheap and have no landscaping. It's just amazing. I seriously know business managers who have swarn never to open another business in certain central Oklahoma cities because of it. We need to work on this.

The reason I mention all of the above is because if you want to attract college grads you need good jobs here, which means you need good businesses. The city really needs to focus on these types of things.

As far as attracting grads... well it's really quite simple. Offer salaries that are competitive on the national level. It blows my mind that so many companies have such low salaries here. A big reason for this is that so many companies here are small and medium sized companies... so again this goes back to the above statements about attracting large companies. The thing that small companies don't realize is that higher-paid grads are so much more productive because it's so much more competitive at that level. For example ever seen that scene in The Dark Knight where the Joker breaks a pool stick in half, throws it on the floor, and tells two henchmen that he only has room for one more on his staff and to make it quick... LOL... it's kind of like that. If you're waving big bucks around you are going to get very good people applying from all over the place. Good people means better business which translates into higher profits. Having set in on many interviews before it is clear as day that this is the case.

Next, I think you guys are asking the wrong question. Instead of asking how do we keep our kids from leaving this state, we really should be asking how can we get kids from other states that are here for college interested in permanently moving to Oklahoma. To be blunt no one wants to move here, so you have to offer them more money or at least be competitive with wherever they're coming from. Competitive doesn't necessarily have to mean salary.

The reason this is important is because it goes back to the networking comment I made. If a college grad has lots of his or her friends moving to this state, friends from college sticking around, or at least people in their own field here they can relate to, that is going to help nudge them in our direction.

Part of what needs to be done is companies need to spend some budget on recruiting and internship programs. They need to make their presence known at local colleges and universities... it is amazing to me how many people I talk to on a daily basis who don't even know that the company I work for has offices here. Not enough companies are doing this, so that means the city and state need to enact incentives and policies that will encourage them to do this.

The city needs to continue to support the Greater Grads program, which is a program that we and many other companies send our interns to throughout the summer so that they can network with other interns and get a bit of a sales job from city leaders on why it is a good idea to stay in OKC. I got the opportunity to hear Mayor Cornett speak and meet him at the final Greater Grads program this summer where they honored the company sponsors of the program and that man is just great in my opinion. The type of things that the program was doing to promote this state and how they were doing it directly to their target audience was spot on with the type of things we need to be doing to keep kids here.

This next part isn't going to set well with uber-conservatives... but the fact is the city and state need to spend some money. The program above I just mentioned? Double it's funding. The lack of internships and what not at large companies in the metro due to budget concerns I mentioned? Offer major tax incentives to make it worthwhile to have interns around. I think if a lot of older companies had the chance to see how productive this generation is they might just make them an offer to stay around. Someone in another thread mentioned that it's hard to stay here when you have student loans to pay off... well get serious and offer to pay off their loans if a college grad stays here and works for a company for x number of years. This could be done through some kind of tax rebate, or maybe by giving companies an incentive to offer some kind of bonus large enough to pay off the debt.

All the other stuff... comments about extremist attitudes, not enough diverse people, etc. will all kind of correct themselves if this is done. I mean part of the reason we don't have some of the cool businesses and recreational activities of other states is simply because we don't have the demographics to support it. In the recent past I myself toyed with the idea of starting a business here on the side, basically being the money/business and partnering with someone who would be the operator, but after some review it really came down to the fact that there weren't enough people in the target demographic in OKC to make it worthwhile.

I think mayor Cornett's observations of trying to create a Raleigh Research Triangle here in OKC are a very good, strategic way of attempting to accomplish this. Such a move would attract more college grads here, which over time potentially increases the customer, supplier, employee, and competitor bases. Eventually you hit a critical mass.

I think places like Seattle and Phoenix benefited greatly in the last century from being located so geographically close to the high population bases of LA, San Fran, and other California cities. Many people tired of living in the rat race of California moved on to more affordable, quieter but still bustling communities. If you think about it, really today Texas is California, and we are Washington state. There are lessons to be learned there....

:congrats: