Chef, the quote was from Jim Couch about the $823,000,000.00 budget being approved. He stated the we had approx. 11% of that in fund balances. Fire union president Phil Sipe stated that at a $14,000,000.00 monthly shortfall that money would be gone rather quickly. The idea would not fix any problems, just put off the inevidable.

Mikemarsh51 did you mean 14,000,000 a year not a month.

I thought I heard we were coming up short that much, I hope I'm wrong. Anyone?

They are asking for a 12% cut from each department. I read somewhere that it would be approx. 14 million for the FD. Maybe that's where it came from.

Ladder Situation –
1) RL109, RL122, RL9 out of service and will not be repaired
2) RL6, RL16, RL25, RL18 possible repair -$250,000.00 each for repairs
3) RL118 has limited service and will be removed from service
4) RL14, RL34 limited use. No Aerial ladder operation - $200,000.00 each for repairs

Ladder Situation –
1) RL109, RL122, RL9 out of service and will not be repaired
2) RL6, RL16, RL25, RL18 possible repair -$250,000.00 each for repairs
3) RL118 has limited service and will be removed from service
4) RL14, RL34 limited use. No Aerial ladder operation - $200,000.00 each for repairsLooking at this years budget for the Fire Sales Tax it's easy to see where the City's priorities are, 11+ million transfered to the City's General Fund, 2+ million in reserve, and $350,000. for Capital outlay.

Our you saying the city is taking that amount of money out of the FD budget, or cutting the budget that much?

Our you saying the city is taking that amount of money out of the FD budget, or cutting the budget that much?No and no. What I'm saying is, there is what is called an "other project" that transfered 11+ million dollars from the Public Safety Sales Tax Fund into the City's General Fund, while the PSST Fund still maintains 2+ million dollars of unencumbered revenue. Revenue that could be spent repairing the F.D. fleet of Rescue Ladders. It seems as though skimming and saving is more important than Firefighter safety and having the ability to rescue those poor soles trapped by fire, collapse, floodwaters, and so on, and so on.

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?

If this has been covered in the thread previously, my apologies. While certainly not "new" news, I just ran across the contrary article today.

The City claims that MAPS 4 Kids Use Tax generated $60M for public safety may not be accurate. Both of these articles are dated the same day.

MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (11/13/09)NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-use-tax-to-fund-safety-in-oklahoma-city/article/3416993?custom_click=headlines_widget)

City records show public safety has received $60 million of use tax revenue from MAPS For Kids, which passed in 2001.

$60M was the total amount raised and only $16M used for public safety by that use tax if the Journal Record article is correct...


Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info (JR, 11/13/09)
Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info | Journal Record, The (Oklahoma City) | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20091113/ai_n42094064/)

About $15.9 million of an estimated $60.3 million in use tax collected from the MAPS for Kids issue has already been applied to support public safety on materials such as police cars, firetrucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. On $777 million, the use tax is projected to be about $90 million, city officials said.

of which only an unspecified amount might be dedicated and then only for the 1st two years of the 7.75 year tax.

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?

Yeah... I thought that the PSST funds were transferred to the GF any time they were actually used. The transfer alone doesn't necessarily equate to non-Fire use.

On a second note, City Council is awarding a contract for one, with options for more, new rescue ladder on Tuesday. $750,000 or so in cost...

... , City Council is awarding a contract for one, with options for more, new rescue ladder on Tuesday. $750,000 or so in cost...

Is this one of the units that got stalled back in December when all the hockey improvement talk was underway? Good news if so. Actually, in light of some of the equip down reports folks are printing here, it's good news period, and I hope it continues for the optionals as well.

many of you, most actually, I only know via your posts, but if your area needs a ladder truck, I sure hopes you have one.

I am not sure if this has been posted, but for the people that voted yes for maps i got a qustions. During the Mayors tv speech that aired approx 1 week prior to the Dec 8 vote he talked about "A Vote for Maps ensures more police and fire protection". Right now as some have stated we have been asked to take about a 12% budget cut which since most of our budget is staffing, could mean approx 145 Firefighters lose their jobs. KNowing this also keep in mind that the City needs around 213 firefighters in order to have all the stations and apparatus staffed to provide adequet fire protection to the citizens. so each shift would lose approx 45 positions which would mean around 20% of the fire protection would be lost.

My question to you is, if the city decided to cut the positions would you support the FD on keeping the jobs? Would you hold the mayor accountable to his words that a vote for maps would provide MORE fire protection?

You look at the Ladder situation and let it be known that the only 1st line Ladder in operation south of I-40 is ladder 7 at 23 Bryant area. How does that make the southside people feel?

Also would it matter if the jobs did get cut which stations it would close or what part of the city would lose the protection? would it matter if the fire station that was right down the street from you is closed and now the closest one is miles away? Would that make you support the FD efforts or would you not care as long as you and your family is still protected?

Also would it matter if the jobs did get cut which stations it would close or what part of the city would lose the protection? would it matter if the fire station that was right down the street from you is closed and now the closest one is miles away? Would that make you support the FD efforts or would you not care as long as you and your family is still protected?

This has been discussed ad infinitum during the leadup to the vote. The new tax hasn't even gone into effect yet so blaming that for this situation won't work. And voting down the new tax would not have improved the situation in the least. I'm not against the fire fighters in the least but I'm more of a realist about this.

tehvipir:

How would fire's situation be improved if MAPS 3 had not passed?

In other words, explain how the base premise of your argument is not a non sequitur.

Go.

ljbab728, we are not arguing the Maps3 tax here. We are only pointing out the methods used to sell it. Thank God we are getting a park and trails! The ironic part is, if it passes you get 30 more public safety officers. Now it is passed and OOOPPSS! We need to cut %12 of all personnel.

Midtowner, whether he makes an illogical conclusion to his premise or not, his situation is still dire. Let's look at your name Midtowner, if you live in mid town, you are covered pretty well and if a hand full of firefighters are terminated it won't really bother you because protection is good for you. What about the folks who live at SE 164th and Air Depot? There was a G.O. bond issue in 2007 to build a new fire statioin at SE 149th and Douglas to provide better protection, (does one citizen deserve better protection than any other?) yet it is not scheduled to be built for 10-12 years from now. Presently, the closest fire station is at SE 74th and Air Depot. How do you think they would like the limited manpower the already have coming from a great distance to be cut by %25? From 4 firefighters to 3.

The city has a rainy day fund that could cover any budget shortfalls. Somewhere around 50-70 million dollars. We are hearing that the recession is over, we should have the money to get us through without cutting any jobs.

ljbab728, we are not arguing the Maps3 tax here. We are only pointing out the methods used to sell it. Thank God we are getting a park and trails! The ironic part is, if it passes you get 30 more public safety officers. Now it is passed and OOOPPSS! We need to cut %12 of all personnel.

There was nothing disingenuous about the methods to sell it. Will MAPS 3 result in more revenue for police and fire? There is no one who can reasonably deny it. MAPS is not about this current fiscal year, or even the next or the next ten. It's about building a successful future for OKC -- leaving a legacy to our children and grandchildren.


Midtowner, whether he makes an illogical conclusion to his premise or not, his situation is still dire.

With or without MAPS, the situation would be dire. At least now, even apart from a general nationwide economic recovery, we have more hope than we would sans MAPS. No thanks to the unions, I might add.

I'm sure i'm missing something, but just browsing through the thread...
It is possible that the Fire and Police Dept. would have experienced a LARGER percentage of layoffs had it not been for Maps. It could be as bad as Tulsa's issues or Fort Meyers, FL, and here in Dallas and Fort Worth, recently there have been significant cuts to both departments to bennefit the city's budget. It seems that these cuts are a natural result of cities that are trying to survive, and particularly cities that have experienced a recent sizable growth but now are dealing with an economic slow down.
Just sayin...no boubt the city knows the needs but why blame the mayor when likely the economy plays the larger role. It sounds like Maps has and will be a long term commitment to building the population and tourism/local interests which in turn builds the budget and from that come department improvements.
Just think about your own budget. Just because you know its a need doesn't mean you can just snap your fingers and make it happen. And while you know you need a new Washer or dryer, a new car will cost more yes, but it may benefit you more in the long run. So you opt for the car, and deal with the smaller budet item in a few months as you set aside what you can for the washer. Budgets are more immediate: Layoffs today but possibly mass hirings in a few months. Who knows what the future brings. Why blame the mayor. Thats making it a singular factor, when the budget is affected by multiple factors. Raise the voice, but no need to sling mud, when we ourselves likely couldn't do much better to quiet critics in the public forum.
False words from the mayors mouth...maybe, it has happened in politics before. ;) But, now that the wheel is squeekin' get ready for some oil.
Give him a bit of time to show what he's made of.

Midtowner, it is interesting that you can be right and wrong at the same time! Maps is about now and the future and most of the last seventeen years. Mr. Cornett made claims that the Maps use tax would provide certain benefits to public safety. The claim was made to sell it. Call that what you want, disingenuous most likely would fit into that catagory. Building something to leave our kids would most certainly include a safe city. Not one that has been picked clean to entice a would be hockey team.

And just to correct you again, Oklahoma City Police and Fire unions were on board with Maps from the beginning. Much to your dismay, we worked for the passage of the previous plans. Donating manpower and cash. So take your union-hating cry-baby antics somewhere else.

Midtowner, it is interesting that you can be right and wrong at the same time! Maps is about now and the future and most of the last seventeen years. Mr. Cornett made claims that the Maps use tax would provide certain benefits to public safety. The claim was made to sell it. Call that what you want, disingenuous most likely would fit into that catagory. Building something to leave our kids would most certainly include a safe city. Not one that has been picked clean to entice a would be hockey team.

It still remains to be seen whether the Use Tax will be used in such a way. My understanding was that at the time, that was an offer made by the city in order to gain the support of the unions, but the offer was rejected. I'm not sure how in that case, you could reasonably consider the city bound morally or otherwise.


And just to correct you again, Oklahoma City Police and Fire unions were on board with Maps from the beginning. Much to your dismay, we worked for the passage of the previous plans. Donating manpower and cash. So take your union-hating cry-baby antics somewhere else.

Were they or were they not on board with MAPS 3?

It still remains to be seen whether the Use Tax will be used in such a way. My understanding was that at the time, that was an offer made by the city in order to gain the support of the unions, but the offer was rejected. I'm not sure how in that case, you could reasonably consider the city bound morally or otherwise.
Watch some footage of the council meetings when the mayor brings this up to the council. He has no illusions about the promises he made and whether they need to be kept. He is having trouble convincing the council, but make no mistake he knows he's morally bound to this. Too many commercials making the same promise way after the unions turned down the citys offer.



Were they or were they not on board with MAPS 3?
So where were you singing their praises when they were donating time and money to pass the previous MAPS initiatives? Not that anyone expects or wants you to sing praises but you sure seem to hold a grudge over this last one. You appear to be one of those "What have you done for me lately?" people.

Not to hammer the point, but seems maybe the focus for F& P ought not to be the mayor.

Sounds like your mayor is advocating application of the non-dedicated companion use tax from Maps for Kids and/or Arena improvements tax (M3 use tax doesn't exist as yet) toward F & P needs, and it is the rest of the council that isn't tapping their toes and singing along.

What type of call in, write in, stop by the office effort is underway to the council members not on board with the use tax idea? Those paths seem far more productive, at least to me, than repetitive grumbling about the mayor of a weak mayor city structure.

That's not a what have you done lately sort of question, but yah, it is certainly a are ya sure you're proceeding efficiently toward your goals question.

Are there some folks out and abut who wouldn't mind seeing F & P unions take a hard knock for opposing M3? Yeah, no doubt. But if it weren't M3 related, it would be related to something else. Some folk just ain't happy unless they're mad about something. Are they the majority? Nah.

Lots of folks who voted Y on M# and lots of folks who dinna bother to vote at all, favor proper F &P support. they may differ on what is and what is not proper, but they're aren't gunning to see engines mothballed or staff numbers slashed.

Too many commercials making the same promise way after the unions turned down the citys offer.

And the M3 commercials were correct -- these improvements = more revenue = more revenue for F&P. Beyond that, the specific use of the Use Tax was something oft addressed in the hypothetical, but I don't think it was ever as strong as being a 'promise' as Porter and Sipe seem to want to imply.


So where were you singing their praises when they were donating time and money to pass the previous MAPS initiatives?

During MAPS I, I was in middle school. During MAPS For Kids, I was in the middle of my undergraduate career. Didn't have much of a voice or vested interest in either of those campaigns.


Not that anyone expects or wants you to sing praises but you sure seem to hold a grudge over this last one. You appear to be one of those "What have you done for me lately?" people.

No grudge really... just a sense of justice. The unions shouldn't be allowed t benefit from their treachery. I believe that sort of behavior should have negative consequences, and if it's incentivized, we can basically guarantee that when MAPS IV comes along, the unions will hold out to get their cut again before signing on, or we'll see a repeat of what happened with MAPS III. If, instead, they realize that it's in their own best interests to want a bright future for this city, then they'll get on board. It' just important that they know what's in their best interests, if you catch my drift.

During MAPS I, I was in middle school. During MAPS For Kids, I was in the middle of my undergraduate career. Didn't have much of a voice or vested interest in either of those campaigns.


So if it happened before you were aware enough to care, it doesn't count. Maybe before you start demonizing the "treacherous P&F unions" you might want to familiarize yourself with their history in this city. Even though you were too young to notice, they were working to make this city a better and safer place through their activism. One issue doesn't constitute a reason to ignore the past.

One issue doesn't constitute a reason to ignore the past.

Sure it does. Their current stance is a 180 from their past stances and is clearly motivated by greed.

They are only as valuable to making this city a better place as they want to be and they've chosen to go against it, so yes, I do think that especially if the city wants to send a message, there should be consequences for opposing progress.

Further, again, if there are no negative consequences to the unions for their current stand, then acting in their own self interests (regardless of the detriment of other stakeholders), they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.

they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.

Well, for an educated person, you're pretty ignorant of how these unions "roll". Do a little research. You've gone past sounding like a "what have you done for me lately" person and pretty much proven that to be your mindset.

Educate me andy, if you don't mind. I'm presuming there are numerous expenses for public safety that are covered from via the General Fund. If that is correct, then why shouldn't the PSST funds be transferred into the GF to go toward those expenses? Isn't that what the tax is designed for, to raise funds to assist with the public safety budget?Been out of pocket, sorry for the delay. As I have mentioned to you before, this issue of how the PSST gets spent, has been spent, or will be spent can get very convoluted, very fast.

It is hard for me to convey in writing the 20 years of history surrounding this tax. If interested, I could e-mail you the Journal Entry of Judgement which sheds more light on the issue.

I have been pretty critical of how the tax has been spent and how it's intended purpose has not been adhered to, but that's my opinion and there are those who will disagree. Here are a couple of quick thoughts on the subject at hand. The PSST was intended to provide for new, improved, additional, enhanced, Fire service, not to provide relief to the General Fund. Secondly, if theres 2+ million setting in reserve then fix or replace the fricking Rescue Ladders. The tax was meant to be spent, not saved.

Not to hammer the point, but seems maybe the focus for F& P ought not to be the mayor.

Sounds like your mayor is advocating application of the non-dedicated companion use tax from Maps for Kids and/or Arena improvements tax (M3 use tax doesn't exist as yet) toward F & P needs, and it is the rest of the council that isn't tapping their toes and singing along.

What type of call in, write in, stop by the office effort is underway to the council members not on board with the use tax idea? Those paths seem far more productive, at least to me, than repetitive grumbling about the mayor of a weak mayor city structure.

That's not a what have you done lately sort of question, but yah, it is certainly a are ya sure you're proceeding efficiently toward your goals question.

Are there some folks out and abut who wouldn't mind seeing F & P unions take a hard knock for opposing M3? Yeah, no doubt. But if it weren't M3 related, it would be related to something else. Some folk just ain't happy unless they're mad about something. Are they the majority? Nah.

Lots of folks who voted Y on M# and lots of folks who dinna bother to vote at all, favor proper F &P support. they may differ on what is and what is not proper, but they're aren't gunning to see engines mothballed or staff numbers slashed.Bingo. The F & P, as well as the General Public, should be telling the City Council.... Please, don't make the Mayor out to be a lier now, for what he said back then, when you sat back and allowed him to say what he did. OH and don't forget, Councilman Marrs was right there by his side. If the Council didn't give the Mayor the authority to make promises, it sure was made to look as if they had.

Sure it does. Their current stance is a 180 from their past stances and is clearly motivated by greed.

They are only as valuable to making this city a better place as they want to be and they've chosen to go against it, so yes, I do think that especially if the city wants to send a message, there should be consequences for opposing progress.

Further, again, if there are no negative consequences to the unions for their current stand, then acting in their own self interests (regardless of the detriment of other stakeholders), they'll continue to oppose progress unless that progress directly enriches them because that is how unions roll.Greed? I must be missing something.

Well, you got me now. We did not support Maps3!!!!!

Instead, we said lets wait a year and make sure we get through the tough time that is coming. Let's take care of our needs before we take care of the wants. Would one year or maybe two have made a real difference on the park, trails, whitewater rafting center or convention center? I say no it would not have. Mr. Cornett said we have to do this now, it will never be possible to do maps3 if we dont do it now.

Well you have hope, whoopee! Maybe you can bottle that and send it to the 400 or so city employees that are being looked at for termination. I am sure they would sleep better.

And by the way, the use tax ploy was a political tactic used by the city to buy support. We rejected it because it was wrong.

Midtowner, You seem to be saying that the Police Officers and Firefighters should experience problems for their stance against Maps 3. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't their whole reason for being against Maps 3 because they were saying there were problems with police and fire staffing, funding, equipment, etc.....? Well? The Pro Maps 3 distorted that message into being something about raises. Guess what, now that the vote is over, surprise surprise, there really are problems with police and fire staffing, funding, equipment, etc.....Just like was originally stated by the police officers and firefighters, and then covered up by people like yourself who wanted the big toy in the window reguardless of the consequences. Greed? Really? Sounds like they had their heads and hearts in the right place for the citizens to me. COngratulations on your new park, convention center, underfunded police and fire departments, unsafe rescue equipment for the rest of the city, etc...... Way to see the big picture.

According to F&P and pretty much everyone except maybe the U.S. Military, they are all underpaid, understaffed, underfunded and under-equipped. If we were able to write a blank check addressing all of their needs and wants, they'd still want more. That's human nature.

We make due with what we are given and should leave it at that. F&P do a serviceable job in this town.

To the city budget, whether it's raises or new employees isn't something that amounts to much. In the end, it's an issue of money which either exists or doesn't.

F&P wanted to raid a tax that has historically been used for capital improvements for their own purposes when they have their own tax completely dedicated to them. If that's not enough, then address your own tax, but leave other facets of the city alone.

As for city employees being laid off, that's always tragic. That said, the city exists to best serve the citizens. The citizens do not exist to serve the municipal employees. Those folks would have lost their jobs with or without MAPS. MAPS only secures the future.

You can't possibly make the argument that this city is a worse place to live because of MAPS I or MAPS For Kids. I have every confidence that you'll have the same inability to say anything about MAPS 3 once those projects are completed. My main point is that if the unions aren't going to support MAPS because it's the right thing to do, then perhaps it's time for the Council to consider whether or not to give those unions a better reason to support our future the next go-round.

Stop ranting, take a breath, re-read my post. My argument isn't if this city is in a better or worse place because of any maps vote. My post is simply about your belief that the police officers and firefighters were against maps3 for greed. Their message was that the city has other problems that need addressed. The rhetoric was then made out that the police officers and firefighters wanted a raise and all is well in OKC. And now the facts come out that the police officers and firefighters werent asking for a raise, they were pointing out what the city, it seems, was hiding from the citizens. And breathe....

We make due with what we are given and should leave it at that.
Yes, but we all don't have the family law practice to fall back on so we advocate for our employment and benefits in more conventional ways. I really don't expect you to understand.


My main point is that if the unions aren't going to support MAPS because it's the right thing to do, then perhaps it's time for the Council to consider whether or not to give those unions a better reason to support our future the next go-round.
So you think that since they dared to have a different opinion than the city that the city should rain hell fire down on them until they cower in submission. Good luck with that considering that almost every time they get in a courtroom together the city gets their ass handed to them for their questionable practices and accounting.

Yes, but we all don't have the family law practice to fall back on so we advocate for our employment and benefits in more conventional ways. I really don't expect you to understand.

I expect you to advocate your own self-interest. Just expect me to advocate against you when I think our interests are opposed. Nothing wrong with that either, right?


So you think that since they dared to have a different opinion than the city that the city should rain hell fire down on them until they cower in submission. Good luck with that considering that almost every time they get in a courtroom together the city gets their ass handed to them for their questionable practices and accounting.

Should P&F be 'punished'? Difficult to say if that's the best plan of attack. Just sending a message that the city's interest and the unions' interests are one and the same is enough for me.

Should P&F be 'punished'? Difficult to say if that's the best plan of attack. Just sending a message that the city's interest and the unions' interests are one and the same is enough for me.

How is it difficult to say? Isn't that what you've been advocating in your last several posts. That the city should do something to make them think twice before they ever stray from the company line again. Like I said, good luck with that.
As far as the city's and union interests being the same, they should be, but they're not always. The city would like to get the job done for as little as possible. The union would like their members to earn a decent living. Those two things don't always go hand in hand.

Well, you got me now. We did not support Maps3!!!!!

Instead, we said lets wait a year and make sure we get through the tough time that is coming. Let's take care of our needs before we take care of the wants. Would one year or maybe two have made a real difference on the park, trails, whitewater rafting center or convention center? I say no it would not have. Mr. Cornett said we have to do this now, it will never be possible to do maps3 if we dont do it now.

Well you have hope, whoopee! Maybe you can bottle that and send it to the 400 or so city employees that are being looked at for termination. I am sure they would sleep better.

And by the way, the use tax ploy was a political tactic used by the city to buy support. We rejected it because it was wrong.

That's not at all how I recall you and your breathren's argument. Fact: The fire union was demanding a one percent raise. This would have cost the city over $1 million. You held MAPS 3 hostage while your dispute went to arbitration.

Don't couch your argument by saying that you and the firefighter heroes wanted to wait a year for the economy to get better. After all, you weren't willing to wait a year for your economy to get better, and that's why you were holding out for your dear one percent.

You did this well into the budget year knowing that receipts were down and your fellow non-fire city personnel were already asked to start the process of projecting budget cuts. The union's opposition to MAPS 3 was nothing but self-serving. You guys underestimated your hero status and standing.

How is it difficult to say? Isn't that what you've been advocating in your last several posts. That the city should do something to make them think twice before they ever stray from the company line again. Like I said, good luck with that.


Thanks. You serve the city, not the other way around. Remember.

That's not at all how I recall you and your breathren's argument. Fact: The fire union was demanding a one percent raise. This would have cost the city over $1 million. You held MAPS 3 hostage while your dispute went to arbitration.

Fact: It's already been through arbitration and the union won. The raise was a settled issue before the MAPS election. The only people who used it then, and continue to do so now, were trying to detract from the P&F argument. It's a red herring.

Thanks. You serve the city, not the other way around. Remember.

So mindless lock step with the city would make you feel better? Sorry, no can do.

So mindless lock step with the city would make you feel better? Sorry, no can do.

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

Oh LordGerald, you are truly a jewel. Quite interesting how you have things twisted.

We, never demanded a raise. After 8 months of failed negotiations our dispute went to arbitration. Do you understand how that works? Each side makes a "last best offer" and the arbitraitor makes a decision. Now since the city made an illegal LBO, the arbitraitor sided with us. He decided on the 1% based on the cities ability to pay. Explain to me how we held anyone hostage in that situation. Oh lets see about when we offered the raise in exchange for more manpower, the city refused that. We suck I agree.

I see in one of your posts you live in ward 3, we may get to meet since I work in ward 3.
I look forward to that, you'll be the one wearing the crown right?

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

So how will we know the difference? You pretty much summed up the way things have been forever. We gave up our raises voluntarily to help them through the rough patch after the bombing, and they return the favor by lobbying the legislature to take away some of our retirement benefits. That's the way they've always done it. Like I said, we're talking about a history of actions, some of which occured while you were apparently still in grade school. Unfortunatley, the city has no idea how to deal with employees on an honest level and apparently neither do you.

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.


Midtowner,

I would probably take you serious on some of your views if you werent a kid that is still wet behind the ears. I tell you what, why dont you go get some life and/or work experience in the real world for about 20 years or so, then come back and we will have some discussion on what you feel is appropriate behavior for firefighters and police officers. We may actually take you seriously if you have any facts to back up your arguments and not a bunch of heresay. Until then, dont try to dispute something that you obviously have no clue about, it only makes you look ignorant.

Which is why the Manager and Council would be well advised to keep you begging for scraps until you folks have a bit of an attitude adjustment. That, unfortunately, is the only effective way to deal with unions.

As far as the attitude goes, firefighters and police officers have an excellent attitude towards their jobs and the public well being.

It is the attitude toward the employer that we have the problem with. We are not going to back off of these guys one damn bit. They have been running our depts in the ground for way too long, by mismanaging and/or misappropriating funds, reducing staffing to unsafe levels and not replacing equipment in a timely fashion.

The line has been drawn in the sand, not by our unions, but by the membership of the firefighters and police officers. We are way past being tired and sick to death of the way we are discounted by the city manager and council. We are not going away on these issues. If it is a fight that they want, it is a fight that they will damn well get...............

If standing up for our jobs and safety as well as the safety of our citizens is viewed as having a poor attitude, then so be it. You couldnt be more wrong.

I've tried to stay out of this one, however, if your upset about the way your treated by the City, and feel as though your being neglected, don't have/can't get the equipment you need, maybe it's time to do as I did, retire or find another job. For every policeman or firefighter job that opens up, there will be at least 50--75 apply.

Norman just took applications for 17 firefighter positions and have over 700 applications.

I don't know, maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm too close, or too jaded or biased on this issue. Maybe I'm incapable of being objective on this issue, or for that matter, any Fire related issue. Maybe.

However, it seems strange that the taxpayers whose lives that are at stake here, are mad at the Firefighters. It could be the lives of their loved ones that may very well depend on the Firefighters having the proper equipment to be saved, and your mad, at the Firefighters.

Your complaining about the Firefighters, because the Firefighters are complaining about not having the proper equipment. In this case we're talking about RESCUE Ladder Trucks.

Maybe the Firefighters should just stop worrying about the issue,and simply protect themselves by staying out harms way. If the worst happens and someone dies that could have been saved, then so be it.

I've tried to stay out of this one, however, if your upset about the way your treated by the City, and feel as though your being neglected, don't have/can't get the equipment you need, maybe it's time to do as I did, retire or find another job. For every policeman or firefighter job that opens up, there will be at least 50--75 apply.

Norman just took applications for 17 firefighter positions and have over 700 applications.

RC,

I was wondering when you were going to come out of the woodwork again. lol

I will be sure to let you know when I am ready to retire, but at the current point I am not anywhere close to being ready.

How is me retiring going to help us get equipment replaced in a timely fashion so that we may better serve the citizens.

I dont see OKC taking applications for a number of years to come. If there are mass number of retirements, the city will not hire anyone to replace them.
Which gets you further in the hole with staffing and safety. That is their grand plan, in order to get our numbers down to minimum staffing.

You are right though there are many who want to be firefighters and police officers. They just have no idea what is in store for them.

Its not enough, that you bust your ass for years for these guys that run this city. On top of that, you have to deal with trying to take action to try to secure your jobs.

If it is a fight that they want, it is a fight that they will damn well get...............

Well, you've already seen what happens when you run a balls-to-the-wall campaign which runs contra to the attitudes at city hall. You lose soundly.

But feel free to keep beating that drum. See where it gets you.

Well, you've already seen what happens when you run a balls-to-the-wall campaign which runs contra to the attitudes at city hall. You lose soundly.

But feel free to keep beating that drum. See where it gets you.

I guess that you were absent in undergrad school when they taught basic math. A 54% yes against a 46% no, does not constitute a sound victory.
At best it is a victory, by a narrow margin, but still a victory that you were sweating until the last hour. It took the Mayor and his friends getting on every television, newspaper, and radio ad possible to get it done. lol
Not to mention having to spend a few million dollars to get it done.

The funny thing about that was that we opposed the big city establishment of business as usual, armed with some t-shirts, a little money, and some paper flyers and got 46% of the vote. I would not call our campaign balls to the wall, because it is nothing compared to what we are capable of.

We had a moderate amount of participation from our memberships. We got our message out and that is all that we intended on doing. If we wanted to win, we would have spent alot more money and had a lot more manpower.

When you grow up a little bit and get some work experience, you will figure out that when you want change, you just dont rollover and give in. You have to draw the line in the sand and fight for what you believe in. Thats is exactly what we intend on doing.

We will see where that gets us and we are going to keep on beating that drum....We are going to beat the hell out of that drum until the fire and police staffing issues, equipment and safety issues get addressed, period.

Just wanted to interject the fears of right to work areas with the unions...
Having seen many union leaders go sideways to extremes, I can understand why people have the fears they do. Having worked with the local Pipefitters and Electrical unions, I also have certainly seen the benefits of employees unions and their concerns for the rights of the workers. But, let’s be honest here, the unions are not ignorant of the fears of non-union workers/employers.

The Firefighters union is quite a different situation though. Firefighters will never have to doubt the appreciation of the citizens, for the majority really do view this as a noble and heroic service. Upon learning of the needs, they will pour out their support. But, it will take some time. Let’s face it, the city and the Firefighters unions are no different than any other business. They must meet their budget and when there are deficiencies or upgrades are needed, they must be planned. Because of the stand they took with MAPS, the people now know there are deficiencies with public services that must be met. New equipment, more employees and so on. Now that they know, I think the unions are doing a good job of giving the citizens some time while continuing to lobby. It is the normal carousel of union employment. But, for those who have been bitten by the extremism of other unions, you can understand why they might be a little emotional about the whole process.

I have also been witness to the extreme rhetoric the leaders some unions will go to, which will put the owners and employers at odds. What do you do when auto workers pull out on strike? Spend millions training non-union employees? Not very cost effective, so in the end the union wins out because even though the employer only spent 1/2 of the millions trying to please the union, it isn't necessarily that the unions deserve the amount settlement, it’s that there is no alternative solution. My former employer finally decided to move his entire manufacturing plant to Durant OK from Canada! Cost him millions of dollars to move all the machinery and inventory and employees. But, after the unions annually forcing his hand, he bit the bullet. Now he's making more revenue and has more control and well, several hundred Canadians union workers are out of work. They begged and begged him to stay, but they built a history of abusing the principals that unions were meant to abide by -Fair employment. It now wasn't fair to the employer. So I do understand the fears of some.

But, as I said earlier, the Firefighters union will never have to doubt the citizens, just give them time and they will empower the city for the changes.

Just wanted to interject the fears of right to work areas with the unions...
Having seen many union leaders go sideways to extremes, I can understand why people have the fears they do. Having worked with the local Pipefitters and Electrical unions, I also have certainly seen the benefits of employees unions and their concerns for the rights of the workers. But, let’s be honest here, the unions are not ignorant of the fears of non-union workers/employers.

The Firefighters union is quite a different situation though. Firefighters will never have to doubt the appreciation of the citizens, for the majority really do view this as a noble and heroic service. Upon learning of the needs, they will pour out their support. But, it will take some time. Let’s face it, the city and the Firefighters unions are no different than any other business. They must meet their budget and when there are deficiencies or upgrades are needed, they must be planned. Because of the stand they took with MAPS, the people now know there are deficiencies with public services that must be met. New equipment, more employees and so on. Now that they know, I think the unions are doing a good job of giving the citizens some time while continuing to lobby. It is the normal carousel of union employment. But, for those who have been bitten by the extremism of other unions, you can understand why they might be a little emotional about the whole process.

I have also been witness to the extreme rhetoric the leaders some unions will go to, which will put the owners and employers at odds. What do you do when auto workers pull out on strike? Spend millions training non-union employees? Not very cost effective, so in the end the union wins out because even though the employer only spent 1/2 of the millions trying to please the union, it isn't necessarily that the unions deserve the amount settlement, it’s that there is no alternative solution. My former employer finally decided to move his entire manufacturing plant to Durant OK from Canada! Cost him millions of dollars to move all the machinery and inventory and employees. But, after the unions annually forcing his hand, he bit the bullet. Now he's making more revenue and has more control and well, several hundred Canadians union workers are out of work. They begged and begged him to stay, but they built a history of abusing the principals that unions were meant to abide by -Fair employment. It now wasn't fair to the employer. So I do understand the fears of some.

But, as I said earlier, the Firefighters union will never have to doubt the citizens, just give them time and they will empower the city for the changes.

Great post. Good message.

You obviously understand the big picture.

Once again, great post.

Based on the following comparisions given to me last night, which I trust as correct, it may be in the best interest of the parties to form a coalition task force and head down to Austin and check them out. Austin must be doing something right. OKC needs to find out what they're doing, and how they're doing it.

OKC uses a "Market Approach" to determine wages and rates of pay for the Firefighters. The City and the Firefighters have agreed to, and use, 10 various City's to make up the market, Austin being 1 of the 10.

Regarding wages and compensation of the 10 City's, Austin ranks #1, OKC #5

Austin has 43 Fire Stations, OKC has 35 (going to 38, maybe)

Austin has 1,146 Employees, OKC has 981

Austin has a Fire Budget of 120 million, OKC has a Fire Budget of 121 Million.


Austin has more stations, more empoyees being paid more money and they do it for less cost. It may be worth a 8 hour road trip to find out their secret.

I guess that you were absent in undergrad school when they taught basic math. A 54% yes against a 46% no, does not constitute a sound victory.

That was the same margin as MAPS I which had no real organized opposition. Spending $140,000 and not even gaining a single percentage point in your favor is a sound defeat. And an 8% gap in any general election is pretty wide.

That was the same margin as MAPS I which had no real organized opposition. Spending $140,000 and not even gaining a single percentage point in your favor is a sound defeat. And an 8% gap in any general election is pretty wide.

MAPS1 was was considered a narrow margin of victory at the time. The idea was new and unproven and the proponents were happy to get a victory of any kind. That was with the city unions putting money and manpower to work supporting the campaign. Now the same margin of victory for what was supposed to be a proven commodity and a bulletproof idea is considered a landslide? You should get a job writing history books. I'd love to see your version of some other past events.

It is closer then we are used to here lately, but an 8% win is not considered all that close.

I agree, but given the way it was supposed to glide through on the accomplishments of the past initiatives and a popular mayor, I think Mid is discounting the the effect the PS employees a little too harshly. Just an opinion.

I agree, but given the way it was supposed to glide through on the accomplishments of the past initiatives and a popular mayor

It did and it will continue to do so.

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.

Maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe not.

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.
Hold that thought. I think you'd be suprised what a little pro-active digging can accomplish.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.
Once again you prove you have no lack of opinion on things you know absolutley nothing about. Unless you are privy to something in negotiations that the rest of us aren't, you might want to stop now.

It did and it will continue to do so.

If Police and Fire were to look around, they'd find themselves in a hole right now. The first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging... yet for some reason, that's what they continue to do.

Negotiating for raises and more employees while every other municipal department is running double digit losses is the very essence of continuing to dig.

Maybe they'll figure it out. Maybe not.Mid, what, or who has you believing the Firefighters are negotiating for a raise?