Here's an update-

3 ladders at the shop for repairs, RL16, RL25 and RL34. RL6 is out of service at an engine shop, RL6 is in an old Squad vehicle that has no ladders on it. We are down to 3 reserve ladders now. The 1985 RL109 was removed from the fleet. RL118 is in service as RL25 and was informed not to use the aerial device. Estimated repairs to RL16 to repair it to the level that it can be tested to see if it passes certification to be climbed is $68,000.00. Cost to repair RL25 to the point it can be tested is $56,000.00. I did not hear an estimate to repair RL34. Again the $3,200,000.00 to purchase 4 new Ladders was loaned to SMG to pay for upgrades for a hockey team that as of yet doesn't exist.


This is insane Mike, I sure hope that someone on the southeast, southwest or northwest sides of OKC does not need the services of a rescue ladder anytime soon......

If we were to have an apartment fire, or structure fire 2 stories or greater, and an occupants means of egress were to be blocked, their only other choice would be to come out a window, we would need the services of a rescue ladder. By the way this has happened many times over the last 30 years in OKC.

Those ladders not only help us to assist the public with rescue from a burning building, they also assist the firefighters with a safer ascent to the top of buildings in order to perform vertical ventilation (the process of creating an opening on the roof of a building to remove hot gases, as well as smoke from a building, in order to create a better environment inside the building.

This better environment will assist us in locating possible trapped occupants and it also assists us in attacking the fire. It enhances our visibility inside a building from nothing to a little something. In a structure fire, you cannot see your hand in front of your face. You have very limited visibility, most of the time your vision will allow you to see at the floor level to about 2 feet off of the floor, the remaining area above 2' to the ceiling is hotter than hell and dark thick black smoke that light will not pass through much less your vision. This is why vertical ventilation is the most important thing a rescue ladder does at a fire scene. It helps to remove this heat and smoke through the roof of the building. It is the catalyst that allows all of the other aspects of firefighting to happen, ex. advance hoselines, fire attacks, search and rescue, etc.

Is anyone getting the picture yet? These are not just big trucks with a bunch of crap loaded on them, operated by a bunch of uneducated people as many of you probably think. These rescue ladders perform vital functions on all fire alarms, car wrecks, search and rescue, rope assisted tasks, just to mention a few. We need rescue ladders that are safe and that operate, so that we can serve the public. Many of the ones we have in OKC have been in service since 1990 to 1995 and they are worn out to say the least. I would hate to see a citizen, group of citizens, or a firefighter lose their lives because we are operating in substandard, worn out, test failing rescue ladders. But that may be what it takes to get the proper attention that this deserves. I sure hope not.....

Dont forget ladder 18. It is the newest victim to the shop. they are now is a squad. so we have ladder 22, 15, 30, 1, 14 running out of firstline ladders out of 13. also in my area of the city Engine 17 is in OLD E9, E11 is in OLD 18, Eninge 18 is in OLD 105 Engine 10 is in OLD 500 ( the training enigne) thats a big part of a city in reserve rigs. not to mention that E18(used by E11) has NO rig radio. only communication is on handheld radios and i am sure there is more like that.

RL16 needs a new engine, that is an additional $20,000.00. For Total of $88,000.00

Rescue ladder 9 and 14, were tested yesterday at the maintenance shop by an independent 3 party. They both failed the test. RL-9 had to leave their rig at the maintenance shop and trade into an old squad. RL-14 failed, but it will not need as many repairs as RL-9.

So here is our Rescue ladder status as of today.

Out of service: due to mechanical failure, ladder testing failure, not safe for driving on road, etc.

RL-6, RL-9, RL-14, RL-16, RL-18, RL-25, RL-34.


Still in service because they have been refurbished recently:
RL-1, RL-7, RL-15, RL-30,

RL-22 bought new a 4-5 years ago is still in service.

RL-31 is still in service but has not been tested yet.

7 of the 13 rescue ladders protecting OKC are out of service.

More than likely it will be 8 of 13 when RL-31 is tested, since it has similiar wear and tear as the others that were purchased in 1995.

The ladders that were purchased in 1995 are as follows:
RL-9, RL-14, RL-16, RL-18, RL-22, RL-25, RL-31 and RL-34.

Of these the only one that has been replaced with a new one since then is RL-22, which has been about 4-5 years ago. The other 7 are worn out and are in need of replacement.

How would this fleet status report compare to one from 10 years ago?

Public Safety (Police and Fire) accounts for 65% of OKC's General Fund Budget and they have a 3/4 cent dedicated sales tax.
What more do they need/want ?

Junkie- The same signed contract we have with the city that says we are not allowed to strike, also says the city will provide us with safe operational equipment. What is your point about 65%?

Steve, 10 years ago the fleet was in fairly good shape. The Simon/LTI ladders that are in such poor shape now were still fairly new. That is also about the time that Garry Marrs decided that it was a good idea to remove the Rescue Squads from service. We had six located around the city. They carried alot of equipment and had specific functions. Garry Marrs got rid of them and piled all of the equipment on our truck companies and renamed the Rescue Ladders.

The Squads were smaller vehicles that made alot of calls. We are now seeing the aftermath of his idea with these Rescue ladders being vehicles of approx. 70,000 pounds being absolutely worn out.

Junkie- The same signed contract we have with the city that says we are not allowed to strike, also says the city will provide us with safe operational equipment. What is your point about 65%?

Point is, Police and Fire are adequately funded, it's a matter of prioritizing, spending money appropriately and improving equipment maintenance programs.

Public Safety (Police and Fire) accounts for 65% of OKC's General Fund Budget and they have a 3/4 cent dedicated sales tax.
What more do they need/want ?

RC,

We need the 4 rescue ladders that were axed for an apparent hockey team loan. Correct if I am wrong, but isnt that $ 3.2 million dollars (originally going to purchase 4 new rescue ladders) later to be diverted as a loan to a hockey team, supposed to be paid back to the city with interest.

If in fact that is the case, then why didnt we just loan this money to the hockey team out of the rainy day fund since it is going to be repaid with interest. Then take the money that we were supposed to purchase the new ladders with originally and simply purchase them.

I have read that if we did this, then somehow our bond rating would be affected. We have over $ 85 million dollars in the rainy day fund, over 10% of our whole citys yearly budget. How in the world is a measly $ 3.2 million dollars (that is going to be repaid with interest) going to amount to a hill of beans out of $ 85 million.

I again will restate that all we as a fire and police dept desire is adequate staffing and dependable equipment to meet the needs of the citizens of OKC.
Nothing more and nothing less.

If 65% of the city budget and a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax cannot get this for public safety, then we definitely need to look at other alternatives as a permanent funding source. Anything less is not in the best interest of the citizens of OKC.

Junkie, one of the problems with you having been in management is that you don't have a clue. Did they give you a crystal ball when you quit? I am just not sure how you have all of the answers about our funding, you were in charge of getting the grass mowed, right?

Public Safety (Police and Fire) accounts for 65% of OKC's General Fund Budget and they have a 3/4 cent dedicated sales tax.
What more do they need/want ?First of all, Public Safety isn't just Police and Fire. Municipal Courts, and Animal Welfare are also part of, and included in, Public Safety, but somehow that fact always seems to get omitted. Secondly, I would like to see how they come up with the 65% number they claim.

Public Safety (Police and Fire) accounts for 65% of OKC's General Fund Budget and they have a 3/4 cent dedicated sales tax.
What more do they need/want ?They need equipment that works and operates in a safe manor. They want the 948 Firefighter positions that the Citizens demanded and are paying extra for, and that are called for in the Journal Entry of Judgement, as ordered by a District Court Judge. It's really not that complicated.

We need the 4 rescue ladders that were axed for an apparent hockey team loan. Correct if I am wrong, but isnt that $ 3.2 million dollars (originally going to purchase 4 new rescue ladders) later to be diverted as a loan to a hockey team, supposed to be paid back to the city with interest.

I hadn't heard that it was a loan at all but the City was flat out paying for it. May be wrong on that...

Junkie, one of the problems with you having been in management is that you don't have a clue. Did they give you a crystal ball when you quit? I am just not sure how you have all of the answers about our funding, you were in charge of getting the grass mowed, right?

The last time I checked, this was an opinion thread, and what I'm doing is posting my "Management" opinion.
I know several that work inside City Hall, in the Finance Department, and the wife of one of my close friends is a purchaser for the Fire Dept. so I gain information from several sources, none of which is a crystal ball.

RC,

We need the 4 rescue ladders that were axed for an apparent hockey team loan. Correct if I am wrong, but isnt that $ 3.2 million dollars (originally going to purchase 4 new rescue ladders) later to be diverted as a loan to a hockey team, supposed to be paid back to the city with interest.

If in fact that is the case, then why didnt we just loan this money to the hockey team out of the rainy day fund since it is going to be repaid with interest. Then take the money that we were supposed to purchase the new ladders with originally and simply purchase them.

I have read that if we did this, then somehow our bond rating would be affected. We have over $ 85 million dollars in the rainy day fund, over 10% of our whole citys yearly budget. How in the world is a measly $ 3.2 million dollars (that is going to be repaid with interest) going to amount to a hill of beans out of $ 85 million.

I again will restate that all we as a fire and police dept desire is adequate staffing and dependable equipment to meet the needs of the citizens of OKC.
Nothing more and nothing less.

If 65% of the city budget and a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax cannot get this for public safety, then we definitely need to look at other alternatives as a permanent funding source. Anything less is not in the best interest of the citizens of OKC.

Or as everyone else, (City employees,people in the private sector, including small business owners), make better use of the funding they have, spend it wisely, take better care of what they have, make cuts where possible, etc; etc;

First of all, Public Safety isn't just Police and Fire. Municipal Courts, and Animal Welfare are also part of, and included in, Public Safety, but somehow that fact always seems to get omitted. Secondly, I would like to see how they come up with the 65% number they claim.

Andy, it is true Animal Welfare & Municipal Courts are part of the category, but they are a miniscule amount of the total (4%, see below) so that may be why they aren't mentioned often.

The 65% claim is found in the 09-10 Budget Report (City of Oklahoma City | Budget and Finance (http://okc.gov/finance_tab/index.html)) by clicking on the link near the top of the page:

On page 11 (19 of the PDF) there is a chart labeled General Fund Expenditures by Function and gives the following breakdown:

65% = Public Safety
17% = Public Services
9% = Culture & Recreation
9% = General Government

A definition of those categories can be found on pg 55 (64 of the PDF)

"These functions make up 53% of the operating expenditure budget."

Of that, here is the way it gets split up (from various places in the report, sorry but didn't get the pg numbers):

53% = Police ($150,288,322)
43% = Fire ($123,838,174)
1% = Animal Welfare ($3,793,155)
3% = Municipal Courts ($9,437,908)

Not sure why the difference between the initial 65% figure and the later 53% since both seem to be talking about the expenditures??

If not mistaken the above numbers include capital expenditures not just personnel etc. And it is talking about the expenditures, not the various funding sources...General Fund, Dedicated Tax (& the accompanying Use Taxes)

Junkie, one of the problems with you having been in management is that you don't have a clue. Did they give you a crystal ball when you quit? I am just not sure how you have all of the answers about our funding, you were in charge of getting the grass mowed, right?

Your always so quick to turn defensive or belittle my 27 plus years of dedicated service to the City of OKC and it's citizens, anytime I have an opinion that differs from yours.

I have a few questions for you. Is it an inherited or learned trait, a genetic flaw, done of ignorance, done of arrogance, or do you use this to build up your obviously inflated ego, or does it make you feel like the better man ??

I'll admit that during my 27 plus years in the Parks Department that all I did was "cut grass", if you'll admit that all you've done during your career as a fireman is keep those "big red trucks all bright and shiny".

Take care, be safe and God Bless

P.S. if it makes you feel better, go ahead and attack, I'll continue to be the better man and give you that honor.

Junkie as I looked back at our responses I laugh. You throw out genetics, learned traits or whatever. Yet you are the one who drops names, lets us know how many friends you have and where they or their wives work. Letting us know how you are privy to all the private information that is talked about.

You throw out some comments about how we need to manage our resources and make a few cuts here and there and all will be well. You are absolutley correct that this thread is about opinion. And my opinion is again you have no clue. If in fact you were the insider, mover and shaker, guy who has everyones ear. You would have been called upon by the Mayor and council to bring your unique skill set to solve the budget crisis. My guess is nobody is calling.

Larry OKC, the 3.2 million dollars was loaned to SMG. They are the management company that manages arenas across the country and around the world, the biggest events happen at SMG-managed facilities.

1st Mariner Arena (Baltimore, Maryland)
American Bank Center Arena (Corpus Christi, Texas)
Arena Santiago (Santiago, Chile)
Atlantic City Boardwalk Hall (Atlantic City, New Jersey)
Bank of Kentucky Center (Highland Heights, Kentucky)
BankAtlantic Center (Sunrise, Florida)
Baton Rouge River Center Arena (Baton Rouge, Louisiana)
Big Sandy Superstore Arena (Huntington, West Virginia)
Blue Cross Arena (Rochester, New York)
BOK Center (Tulsa, Oklahoma)
Cabarrus Arena and Events Center (Concord, North Carolina)
Cambria County War Memorial Arena (Johnstown, Pennsylvania)
Canton Memorial Civic Center (Canton, Ohio)
CenturyTel Center Arena (Bossier City, Louisiana)
Coliseo De Puerto Rico (Hato Rey, Puerto Rico)
Covelli Centre (Youngstown, Ohio)
DCU Center Arena (Worcester, Massachusetts)
Diddle Arena (Bowling Green, Kentucky)
Dunkin' Donuts Center (Providence, Rhode Island)
Eastern Kentucky Expo Center (Pikeville, Kentucky)
Five Flags Center Arena (Dubuque, Iowa)
Florence Civic Center (Florence, South Carolina)
Ford Arena (Beaumont, Texas)
Ford Center (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)
George M. Sullivan Sports Arena (Anchorage, Alaska)
Hershey Centre (Mississauga, Ontario)
Idaho Center Arena (Nampa, Idaho)
INTRUST Bank Arena (Wichita, Kansas)
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena (Jacksonville, Florida)
John A. Carlson Center (Fairbanks, Alaska)
John Paul Jones Arena (Charlottesville, Virginia)
K-Rock Centre (Kingston, Ontario)
Kansas Coliseum (Wichita, Kansas)
Koenig-Pilsener Arena (Oberhausen, Germany)
Landon Arena (Topeka, Kansas)
Laredo Entertainment Center (Laredo, Texas)
Leeds Arena (Manchester, United Kingdom)
Long Beach Arena (Long Beach, California)
Lucas County Arena (Toledo, Ohio)
Manchester Evening News Arena (Manchester, United Kingdom)
Mellon Arena (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
Metroradio Arena (Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom)
Mid-America Center Arena (Council Bluffs, Iowa)
Mobile Civic Center (Mobile, Alabama)
Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum (Uniondale, New York)
Nationwide Arena (Columbus, Ohio)
New Orleans Arena (New Orleans, Louisiana)
North Charleston Coliseum (North Charleston, South Carolina)
Odyssey Arena (Belfast, Northern Ireland)
Oracle Arena (Oakland, California)
Oslo Spektrum (Oslo, Norway)
Paul E. Tsongas Arena (Lowell, Massachusetts)
Pensacola Civic Center (Pensacola, Florida)
Peoria Arena (Peoria, Illinois)
Pershing Auditorium (Lincoln, Nebraska)
Petersen Events Center (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
Rabobank Arena (Bakersfield, California)
Reliant Arena (Houston, Texas)
Richmond Coliseum (Richmond, Virginia)
Roberts Stadium (Evansville, Indiana)
Save Mart Center (Fresno, California)
Selland Arena (Fresno, California)
ShoWare Center at Kent (Kent, Washington)
Silver Spurs Arena (Kissimmee, Florida)
Sioux Falls Arena (Sioux Falls, South Dakota)
Sovereign Center (Reading, Pennsylvania)
The Arena at Gwinnett Center (Duluth, Georgia)
THE ARENA at The David L. Williams Southeastern KY Ag & Expo Complex (Corbin, Kentucky)
The Arena at the Don Taft University Center (Fort Lauderdale, Florida)
The Arena at the Dow Event Center (Saginaw, Michigan)
The Forum (Inglewood, California)
Times Union Center (Albany, New York)
Van Andel Arena (Grand Rapids, Michigan)
Verizon Wireless Arena (Manchester, New Hampshire)
Wachovia Arena at Casey Plaza (Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania)
Wolstein Center (Cleveland, Ohio)

They are a world wide company. I can't believe that they needed that money from the city to make the upgrades. I also think that maybe Bob Funk should have made them the loan or paid for the upgrades himself since he will own the team.

Junkie as I looked back at our responses I laugh. You throw out genetics, learned traits or whatever. Yet you are the one who drops names, lets us know how many friends you have and where they or their wives work. Letting us know how you are privy to all the private information that is talked about.

You throw out some comments about how we need to manage our resources and make a few cuts here and there and all will be well. You are absolutley correct that this thread is about opinion. And my opinion is again you have no clue. If in fact you were the insider, mover and shaker, guy who has everyones ear. You would have been called upon by the Mayor and council to bring your unique skill set to solve the budget crisis. My guess is nobody is calling.


Thanks for your humble opinion, good luck on rebuilding the ego.
Remember, look a the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely, just like I'm sure you do at home!!

Got to go, phones ringing, it might be Mick or Chief Marrs!!

Take care, Be Safe and God Bless

Larry OKC, the 3.2 million dollars was loaned to SMG. ... They are a world wide company. I can't believe that they needed that money from the city to make the upgrades. I also think that maybe Bob Funk should have made them the loan or paid for the upgrades himself since he will own the team.

OK, now I am confused (do you have a link by chance?) SMG manges the Cox (and Ford) for the City so in the City is loaning itself the money and has to be paid back? If it is a loan and the City is going to be paid back, at least that is preferred over just giving the money to them (doesn't help the Fire truck situation though). Why would the manager of the arena make the upgrades and not the owner (the City)? I agree that Funk should be paying for the upgrades but the precedent has now been set with the Thunder and owners of these teams aren't going to be paying.

Wow, this does get a bet convoluted...the City owns the Cox, leases it to the "Authority" (a City entity) who in turn subleases it to SMG (who manages it for the City).

They are "borrowing" from themselves, $3,200,000 from the City and Schools Capital Projects Use Tax Fund (MAPS for Kids Use Tax) to be paid back over a period of 10 years (partially through a $2 seat tax on tickets sold).

But this all may be moot...

Oklahoma City Council wants new hockey team (Journal Record 12/16/09)

The proposed agreement includes a five-year lease with three-year renewals, and commits the city to about $4.5 million in improvements to the Cox Convention Center. But city council’s approval requires that Prodigal confirm an NHL team no later than Dec. 31

It is 16 days past that deadline and haven't seen any announcement on a confirmed (signed contract) AHL team.

There is only ONE Rescue Ladder that is operable south of the river! It is at SW 29th and Eastern. There are supposed to be 4. Whay isn't the media asking any questions???? What happened to all of the "things are great, the firefighters are overreacting and just wanting a raise" talk that was being shoveled out prior to the Maps vote? I wouldn't stay in any structure over two stories, no ladders to reach you in an emergency. The heavy tanker at station 33 is out of service. Hope no one out that way has a fire that requires more than 500 gallons of water. Many Engines in reserve equipment that is sub-par. More Rescue Ladders on the North side out of service. It is amazing that our great city is OK with ****ty fire protection!

There is only ONE Rescue Ladder that is operable south of the river! It is at SW 29th and Eastern. There are supposed to be 4. Whay isn't the media asking any questions???? What happened to all of the "things are great, the firefighters are overreacting and just wanting a raise" talk that was being shoveled out prior to the Maps vote? I wouldn't stay in any structure over two stories, no ladders to reach you in an emergency. The heavy tanker at station 33 is out of service. Hope no one out that way has a fire that requires more than 500 gallons of water. Many Engines in reserve equipment that is sub-par. More Rescue Ladders on the North side out of service. It is amazing that our great city is OK with ****ty fire protection!

Just curious. When was the last time the media was invited out for a press conference about equipment status, or an informal, no pun intended, fireside chat with the chief, union president, concerned citizen group. Or are such direct communications to media not permitted, all activity of NTM to the contrary. Not picking, not ribbing, just asking.

Not sure about the media involvement with the Fire Chief, Union President, etc...Not privy.

Just curious. When was the last time the media was invited out for a press conference about equipment status, or an informal, no pun intended, fireside chat with the chief, union president, concerned citizen group. Or are such direct communications to media not permitted, all activity of NTM to the contrary. Not picking, not ribbing, just asking.KP, if my memory is correct, about 6 weeks ago the Union brought attention to the deplorable condition, and dilapidated state, of Fire Station # 7 to the media and the public, causing Couch, and the Fire Chief to have the come-aparts. Sadly, until someone gets injured, or worse, dies due to faulty run down equipment then from the City's perspective, it's all good.

The title of this thread is Public Safety, which includes Police/Fire/Animal Control/Municipal Courts, there are a few that feel OKC's Public Safety is adequately funded (myself included), and the only ones claiming their underfunded is the few on here that are members of the OKC Fire Department. In my opinion, it sound's/appears to be more about sour grapes and want--want--want and not entirely about need.

KP, if my memory is correct, about 6 weeks ago the Union brought attention to the deplorable condition, and dilapidated state, of Fire Station # 7 to the media and the public, causing Couch, and the Fire Chief to have the come-aparts. Sadly, until someone gets injured, or worse, dies due to faulty run down equipment then from the City's perspective, it's all good.

Andy, forgive if my memory is spotty, but wasn't that the capitol hill area and didn't it come about as one of the last pushes prior to the maps3 vote?

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Since Maps vote came and went, there are comments reported here about failed inspections, inspections put on hold, canceled purchases, limited equipment availability for major sections of the city, etc.

I'm not picking, but from an outsider's perspective, most everything pre Dec. 8 was vote related. viable and non-viable arguments alike get lost, or even discounted or dismissed in the short memories once the votes get counted.

But most of what I reference above is post election. Y'all ain't likely to ever be involved in anything for me personally, but I do have friends in your coverage zones. Hearing about failed inspections, canceled ones, equip shortages and canceled equip sounds like a story all its own to me.

But it doesn't seem to me to be getting out there in anything resembling an official or even an unofficial but nonetheless organized manner. Perhaps it should is all I'm trying to note.

Junkie as always you are absolutley correct, we just want, want, want and were mad we lost the Maps3 vote and don't forget it's all about our ego too.

Larry OKC, I typed SMG in Yahoo and went right to it. Amazing that what appears to be a multi-national, multi-million if not Billion dollar a year company is getting a 4.5 million dollar loan from our city leaders.

Junkie as always you are absolutely correct, we just want, want, want and were mad we lost the Maps vote and don't forget it's all about our ego too.

Glad you've finally seen the light my little firefighter buddy.
Maybe I would have a different opinion if all of this concern had been voiced prior to MAPS3, coincidence--I think not.

"Spend wisely and cut where you can"

Again, thats my opinion.

Maybe I would have a different opinion if all of this concern had been voiced prior to MAPS3, coincidence--I think not.

You need to realize that the MAPS3 election is over. Time to start basing your decisions and opinions on something else. Just a thought.

Larry OKC, I typed SMG in Yahoo and went right to it. Amazing that what appears to be a multi-national, multi-million if not Billion dollar a year company is getting a 4.5 million dollar loan from our city leaders.

I can see where you are thinking SMG is getting the loan (really not trying to get bogged down in SMG's role in this but they seem to be nothing more than a middle-man for the City) but what I read in the City documents concerning the $4.5M Cox improvements, the "loan" isn't really going to SMG per se, it is being "loaned" by the City to the "Authority" (Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, a City entity). In fact, SMG isn't even mentioned as a "party". The agreement is entitled:

Cox Convention Center Renovation Agreement among the City of Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, and Prodical Hockey LLC.

Where SMG seems to come into the picture is they are just the management company running the day-to-day operations of the Cox (like they do the Ford) and are the ones being authorized by the City to negotiate the lease with the owners of the hockey team (with Council's final approval). And they are responsible for collecting the $2 seat tax and making sure the Authority/City(MAPS for Kids Use tax fund) is paid back. At least that is my reading of it.

But like I said, this may all be a moot point since the lease improvements deal was only valid if an actual team was signed to contract by December 31 of 2009. No team, no deal so would presume that the $3.2M is back in the MAPS for Kids Use Tax Fund and still available for its original "intent".

The obvious problem I see here, is just like the infamous MAPS 3 Resolution of Intent (besides being non-binding) is the Council's intent can change on a whim. Wouldn't it be interesting if a anti-MAPS 3 Mayor got elected in the next round? (Very unlikely given Cornett's high approval rating). Of the current Council, there is already one confirmed and vocal Councilperson who is anti-MAPS 3. Two other pro-MAPS 3 councilperson's wards actually voted against it. That potentially brings the Council to 4 votes that could go against some of the projects and it would only take 1 more to switch things up. This doesn't take into account any changes on the Council itself. Things could easily turn during the next 7.75 years. Should be interesting to watch it play out.

But I digress...

The "no team, no improvements" plays against the City's claim in those documents that the improvements are for other things and are needed anyway. The way the language is written, hockey and specifically, an AHL team just seems to be incidental. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? LOL

I can see where you are thinking SMG is getting the loan (really not trying to get bogged down in SMG's role in this but they seem to be nothing more than a middle-man for the City) but what I read in the City documents concerning the $4.5M Cox improvements, the "loan" isn't really going to SMG per se, it is being "loaned" by the City to the "Authority" (Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, a City entity). In fact, SMG isn't even mentioned as a "party". The agreement is entitled:

Cox Convention Center Renovation Agreement among the City of Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma City Public Property Authority, and Prodical Hockey LLC.

Where SMG seems to come into the picture is they are just the management company running the day-to-day operations of the Cox (like they do the Ford) and are the ones being authorized by the City to negotiate the lease with the owners of the hockey team (with Council's final approval). And they are responsible for collecting the $2 seat tax and making sure the Authority/City(MAPS for Kids Use tax fund) is paid back. At least that is my reading of it.

But like I said, this may all be a moot point since the lease improvements deal was only valid if an actual team was signed to contract by December 31 of 2009. No team, no deal so would presume that the $3.2M is back in the MAPS for Kids Use Tax Fund and still available for its original "intent".

The obvious problem I see here, is just like the infamous MAPS 3 Resolution of Intent (besides being non-binding) is the Council's intent can change on a whim. Wouldn't it be interesting if a anti-MAPS 3 Mayor got elected in the next round? (Very unlikely given Cornett's high approval rating). Of the current Council, there is already one confirmed and vocal Councilperson who is anti-MAPS 3. Two other pro-MAPS 3 councilperson's wards actually voted against it. That potentially brings the Council to 4 votes that could go against some of the projects and it would only take 1 more to switch things up. This doesn't take into account any changes on the Council itself. Things could easily turn during the next 7.75 years. Should be interesting to watch it play out.

But I digress...

The "no team, no improvements" plays against the City's claim in those documents that the improvements are for other things and are needed anyway. The way the language is written, hockey and specifically, an AHL team just seems to be incidental. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? LOLThats what I find most troubling about Municipal Government, a deal is never really a deal.

Andy, forgive if my memory is spotty, but wasn't that the capitol hill area and didn't it come about as one of the last pushes prior to the maps3 vote?

Sorry I wasn't more clear. Since Maps vote came and went, there are comments reported here about failed inspections, inspections put on hold, canceled purchases, limited equipment availability for major sections of the city, etc.

I'm not picking, but from an outsider's perspective, most everything pre Dec. 8 was vote related. viable and non-viable arguments alike get lost, or even discounted or dismissed in the short memories once the votes get counted.

But most of what I reference above is post election. Y'all ain't likely to ever be involved in anything for me personally, but I do have friends in your coverage zones. Hearing about failed inspections, canceled ones, equip shortages and canceled equip sounds like a story all its own to me.

But it doesn't seem to me to be getting out there in anything resembling an official or even an unofficial but nonetheless organized manner. Perhaps it should is all I'm trying to note.Point well taken, your right. I hope for your friends sake that they will not require the services of a Rescue Ladder anytime soon. Especially if they live South.

You need to realize that the MAPS3 election is over. Time to start basing your decisions and opinions on something else. Just a thought.

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.The employees aren't allotted 65% of the General Fund budget.

Wambo, look at post #93, your buddy mikemarsh is the one that keeps bringing up MAPS, I just respond when he does, might want to remind him. Just a thought.

My opinions are based on facts and statements received from others. One fact, is that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of OKC's employees, yet they are allotted 65% of the General Fund Budget.

Remember: look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely.You say for a fact that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of the total City Employees. WRONG. Just using Police (1,303) and Fire (984) and not counting the Animal Welfare and Court employees those 2 departments alone account for 2,287 of the 4,455. Thats 51.3%, not 45%. When you add in the A.W. and M.C. employees now we're talking closer to 53%, but thats not a fact, only a guess.

The employees aren't allotted 65% of the General Fund budget.

The operating budget comes from the General Fund, I assume that pubic safety employees receive a paycheck every other Friday (some on Thursday with direct deposit), plus their negotiated benefits. Which by-the-way, Public Safety budget was increased by over 5 million this fiscal year to cover wage increases and health insurance increases.

You say for a fact that Public Safety Employees account for 45% of the total City Employees. WRONG. Just using Police (1,303) and Fire (984) and not counting the Animal Welfare and Court employees those 2 departments alone account for 2,287 of the 4,455. Thats 51.3%, not 45%. When you add in the A.W. and M.C. employees now we're talking closer to 53%, but thats not a fact, only a guess.

I stand corrected, when you add Animal Control and Municipal Courts, it 53% of the employees, and yet Public Safety receives 65% of the General Fund--how is that fair?

The operating budget comes from the General Fund, I assume that pubic safety employees receive a paycheck every other Friday (some on Thursday with direct deposit), plus their negotiated benefits. Which by-the-way, Public Safety budget was increased by over 5 million this fiscal year to cover wage increases and health insurance increases.You say the operating budget comes from the general fund. Thats a brilliant concept. But so what? It's the departments operating budget, not the employees operating budget.

Oh my, even for someone with 27 years of experience thats quite an assumption you make about Public Safety employees being paid every other Friday. Whats your point? Would you dare assume the same for the employees who work in the Parks and Recreation department as well?

Public Safety is a combination of 4 separate departments with 53% of the employees who work for the City, so again, what's your point? Take the departments with the other 47% and combine them and see what you get.

Did you really mean to say, merit and step increases, since there are no wage increases this year?

I stand corrected, when you add Animal Control and Municipal Courts, it 53% of the employees, and yet Public Safety receives 65% of the General Fund--how is that fair?I'm sorry, but life's not always fair. Fire Engines, Ladder Trucks, and bunker gear cost more than lawn mowers, weed-eaters, and plastic hard-hats. Don't know what else I could say to make you happy. It's a cruel world.

I'm sorry, but life's not always fair. Fire Engines, Ladder Trucks, and bunker gear cost more than lawn mowers, weed-eaters, and plastic hard-hats. Don't know what else I could say to make you happy. It's a cruel world.

Wages and Benefits are a separate budget item then equipment, Equipment replacement and purchase comes out of the Capitol Budget.
Your never to old to learn.

Have a Nice Day, Be Safe and God Bless!!

"watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

You say the operating budget comes from the general fund. Thats a brilliant concept. But so what? It's the departments operating budget, not the employees operating budget.

Oh my, even for someone with 27 years of experience thats quite an assumption you make about Public Safety employees being paid every other Friday. Whats your point? Would you dare assume the same for the employees who work in the Parks and Recreation department as well?

Public Safety is a combination of 4 separate departments with 53% of the employees who work for the City, so again, what's your point? Take the departments with the other 47% and combine them and see what you get.

Did you really mean to say, merit and step increases, since there are no wage increases this year?

Wages: Compensation received in exchange for labor. Merit and step increases are "WAGES", unless you cheating the system and receiving pay for nothing.

Have a Good Day, keep the trucks clean, watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely!!

Or as everyone else, (City employees,people in the private sector, including small business owners), make better use of the funding they have, spend it wisely, take better care of what they have, make cuts where possible, etc; etc;


Thats all fine and good when people lives are not at stake. If I am not mistaken, and I can assure you that I am not, fire and police have been asked to and have taken budget cuts every year since the OKC bombing in 1995. Thats 14 years of nothing but cuts. The OKC budget dept has enjoyed many years of good times since 1995. Unfortunately, fire and police have been taxed with doing much more with a whole lot less for that same time frame. We have trimmed off the fat many years ago and now each subsequent cut will cut into services offered to citizens.

What else do we cut RC? We have cut our budgets, we have cut staffing, we have cut equipment, we have cut programs, what else. Our equipment is failing miserably.

We have heard from all of the other brilliant scholars on this website. The same old response of tighten your budget and spend wisely, real cute, we have been doing that for some time. Do we close fire stations, police stations, lay off hundreds of fire and police, cant wait for the fallout from that.

When we get a fire alarm, do we just not respond because we dont have the equipment in the proper working order to do so. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

When we get domestics, shootings or stabbings, which by the way they happen every night in this city, do we just not go to provide assistance because we dont have the staffing. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

Its real easy to sit back and say to cut your budget when you have no idea what the fire and police depts do for the citizens. We protect your lives and property with our own lives every day and night, 24/7/365, come rain, snow, blizzard, tornado, flood, fire, bombing, etc. 100 degree days to 0 degree days. Whatever the situation is, we take care of business.

Thats all fine and good when people lives are not at stake. If I am not mistaken, and I can assure you that I am not, fire and police have been asked to and have taken budget cuts every year since the OKC bombing in 1995. Thats 14 years of nothing but cuts. The OKC budget dept has enjoyed many years of good times since 1995. Unfortunately, fire and police have been taxed with doing much more with a whole lot less for that same time frame. We have trimmed off the fat many years ago and now each subsequent cut will cut into services offered to citizens.

What else do we cut RC? We have cut our budgets, we have cut staffing, we have cut equipment, we have cut programs, what else. Our equipment is failing miserably.

We have heard from all of the other brilliant scholars on this website. The same old response of tighten your budget and spend wisely, real cute, we have been doing that for some time. Do we close fire stations, police stations, lay off hundreds of fire and police, cant wait for the fallout from that.

When we get a fire alarm, do we just not respond because we dont have the equipment in the proper working order to do so. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

When we get domestics, shootings or stabbings, which by the way they happen every night in this city, do we just not go to provide assistance because we dont have the staffing. Thats not an option. Lives are at stake.

Its real easy to sit back and say to cut your budget when you have no idea what the fire and police depts do for the citizens. We protect your lives and property with our own lives every day and night, 24/7/365, come rain, snow, blizzard, tornado, flood, fire, bombing, etc. 100 degree days to 0 degree days. Whatever the situation is, we take care of business.



All I have said is that in times of down economics, everyone has to make do with less. To say that police and fire have taken budgets cuts every year since 1995 is absolutely false. You state that the Police and Fire have had to do more with less, so has the Water Dept., Street Dept., Sanitation Dept., Parks Dept., Building Management, Equipment Services, City Managers Office, Personnel, etc: etc;, so welcome to the club. And despite what some on this thread say, I'm very aware of what the Public Safety Departments do for the citizens, I also know some of the behind the scenes activity within the departments, and I still say they are adequately funded. I also don't think it was a coincidence that these equipment situations only became an issue when it was time for the MAPS3 election. This of course is my opinion.

Have a Great Day and a Better Tomorrow

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

Wages and Benefits are a separate budget item then equipment, Equipment replacement and purchase comes out of the Capitol Budget.
Your never to old to learn.

Have a Nice Day, Be Safe and God Bless!!

"watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"See there, you have that rare sense that most don't, that keen eye for detail. Thats why you made the ascension to mid-level management and I didn't. Thanks for the lesson.

[/COLOR]

Wages: Compensation received in exchange for labor. Merit and step increases are "WAGES", unless you cheating the system and receiving pay for nothing.

Have a Good Day, keep the trucks clean, watch the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely!!See previous post. You have a good day yourself, and remember, mower blades are your friends, so keep em sharp.

See there, you have that rare sense that most don't, that keen eye for detail. Thats why you made the ascension to mid-level management and I didn't. Thanks for the lesson.

No problem andy, glad I could share some of my knowledge with a fellow OKC employee.
Don't give up on advancing in the ranks, your never to old to learn.

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"

See previous post. You have a good day yourself, and remember, mower blades are your friends, so keep em sharp.

I'm retired, do as I please, when I please, so I have a good day every day.

Remember, keep those big red trucks all bright and shiny!!, no one likes a dirty rig!!

RL16 was in RL122 until RL122 was inspected and taken off the road. RL16 is now operating out of E106 a 1990 model engine that has been retired from service twice. With that piece of reserve equipment 2/3 of RL16 gear is sitting in the rig room floor, since there is no room to carry the gear.

Junkie could you please elaborate on your theory about how these rigs being worn out relates to the maps vote?

All I have said is that in times of down economics, everyone has to make do with less. To say that police and fire have taken budgets cuts every year since 1995 is absolutely false. You state that the Police and Fire have had to do more with less, so has the Water Dept., Street Dept., Sanitation Dept., Parks Dept., Building Management, Equipment Services, City Managers Office, Personnel, etc: etc;, so welcome to the club. And despite what some on this thread say, I'm very aware of what the Public Safety Departments do for the citizens, I also know some of the behind the scenes activity within the departments, and I still say they are adequately funded. I also don't think it was a coincidence that these equipment situations only became an issue when it was time for the MAPS3 election. This of course is my opinion.

Have a Great Day and a Better Tomorrow

"look at the budget, cut where you can and spend wisely"


FACT: Our contract was rolled over after the bombing in 1995 and every year since then we have been asked to cut our budget. Ex. The city asked for a 2% budget cut and all we could give them would be somewhere in the 1/2 % range. That is by cutting positions and rigs, changing job descriptions, and the like. The last time I checked that is doing more with less. That is still a cut in the budget even though its not the cut that the city was looking for. Take that same practice times the last 14 years and thats where we are today.

Another example is on the income side that would read "this next fiscal year we the city are predicting a 5% increase in revenues, if the figure comes in at 4% then we have a 1% shortfall instead of 4% more than we had the previous year. Well we are short on money, we need you to cut your budgets again this year by 2 %. See the cycle. Yet, the city has 4% more than the previous year to do business with. Its all in how you interpret the numbers. Take this same practice times the last 14 years and see where we are at.

If fire and police had not been getting the increases in revenue, and as you indicate the other dept. such as public works, parks and recreation, and the like are not getting the funding. That leads me to my biggest question of all. Where in the hell has all of that money been going for the last 14 years or so? All of those fat years, because we have had many of them, until 2009.

I do think that we are in a state of economic downtown and have been the entire year of 2009. I do agree with you that we need to tighten our belts and do more with less, but that is what we have been doing for years. I just dont see how we are going to do that without eliminating services to the public. Services that they are paying for every time they spend money at the grocery store, etc.

FACT: Our contract was rolled over after the bombing in 1995 and every year since then we have been asked to cut our budget. Ex. The city asked for a 2% budget cut and all we could give them would be somewhere in the 1/2 % range. That is by cutting positions and rigs, changing job descriptions, and the like. The last time I checked that is doing more with less. That is still a cut in the budget even though its not the cut that the city was looking for. Take that same practice times the last 14 years and thats where we are today.

Another example is on the income side that would read "this next fiscal year we the city are predicting a 5% increase in revenues, if the figure comes in at 4% then we have a 1% shortfall instead of 4% more than we had the previous year. Well we are short on money, we need you to cut your budgets again this year by 2 %. See the cycle. Yet, the city has 4% more than the previous year to do business with. Its all in how you interpret the numbers. Take this same practice times the last 14 years and see where we are at.

If fire and police had not been getting the increases in revenue, and as you indicate the other dept. such as public works, parks and recreation, and the like are not getting the funding. That leads me to my biggest question of all. Where in the hell has all of that money been going for the last 14 years or so? All of those fat years, because we have had many of them, until 2009.
I do think that we are in a state of economic downtown and have been the entire year of 2009. I do agree with you that we need to tighten our belts and do more with less, but that is what we have been doing for years. I just dont see how we are going to do that without eliminating services to the public. Services that they are paying for every time they spend money at the grocery store, etc.



Again, stating that Police and Fire have had budget reductions every year since 1995 is at best, false.

For the past several years, most revenue increases have went toward the increase in wages (step and merit increases are wages) and the ever increasing cost of health insurance. This fiscal year alone, the increase in wages and health insurance, just for Public Safety Employees was over 5 million dollars.

Theres approximately 4500 city employees, insurance for every employee is at least $10,000 per employee, per year and increasing each year, it's easy to understand where revenue increases are going.

RL16 was in RL122 until RL122 was inspected and taken off the road. RL16 is now operating out of E106 a 1990 model engine that has been retired from service twice. With that piece of reserve equipment 2/3 of RL16 gear is sitting in the rig room floor, since there is no room to carry the gear.

Junkie could you please elaborate on your theory about how these rigs being worn out relates to the maps vote?

I never did say that rigs being worn out related to MAPS. The NOT THIS MAPS supporters tried to make it an issue.
I just question that fact that you state this has been an ongoing problem, yet no one from within the Fire Department voiced their concern until it was time for the election. It definitely appears as though they were trying to make this an issue, when it clearly was not.

"look at the budget, cut where you can, spend wisely"

God Bless!!

Junkie, just because you werent aware of it doesnt mean it wasnt an issue. I hope you can understand that.

Hey Steve! What makes an issue news worthy these days?

Junkie, just because you werent aware of it doesnt mean it wasn't an issue. I hope you can understand that.

I understand. If it's as serious as you claim, keep demanding answers and hopefully the press will get involved. I've been wrong before, and I'm sure it wasn't the last time.

Take care and be safe!!

Again, stating that Police and Fire have had budget reductions every year since 1995 is at best, false.

For the past several years, most revenue increases have went toward the increase in wages (step and merit increases are wages) and the ever increasing cost of health insurance. This fiscal year alone, the increase in wages and health insurance, just for Public Safety Employees was over 5 million dollars.

Theres approximately 4500 city employees, insurance for every employee is at least $10,000 per employee, per year and increasing each year, it's easy to understand where revenue increases are going.

I will agree to disagree with you on the budget reductions since 1995.

As for the wages, you are correct that does include step and merit increases.

However, step and merit increases count very little if anything towards the overall budget because in any given year we have personnel who occupy the high as well as the low pay grades in any given rank.

What should be happening is the following:

From year to year, we have personnel who advance from pay grade to pay grade as well as retire from the job. Then we get new hires to complete the cycle. In this scenario the impact to the overall budget is a wash at best, since we have personnel occupying each step in the pay grades from bottom to top and starting at the bottom again.

What is actually happening is the following:

We are lucky at best to get a recruit class to replace these retirees in a timely fashion, which results in very substantial salary savings to the overall city budget. This practice has been going on for well over 15 years.

If we were to have a recruit class ready to hire when we have the retirements to substantiate them, at best we would have a zero impact on the overall budget. As stated earlier, this is not our practice, we let personnel retire, then city mgt. think about it for a year or so, then it takes about 6-9 months after that to get new applicants through the hiring process.

On health insurance topic, I will use your $10,000 per employee this year. Last year, it was $ 9500 per employee. We have approx. 4500 city employees x $500 increase. This equates to about $ 2.25 million in increase to health insurance.

I am finding it really hard to believe that "the so called increase in wages" is going to eat up the remaining $ 2.75 million dollars for this fiscal year. When we have a hiring freeze, many retirements upcoming in this fiscal year, and no increase in wages. Who is getting these increase in wages and compensation? Hmm, I wonder. If no raises or new hires, where does that money go. We already have a rainy fund for the city that tops 10%.

I will agree to disagree with you on the budget reductions since 1995.

As for the wages, you are correct that does include step and merit increases.

However, step and merit increases count very little if anything towards the overall budget because in any given year we have personnel who occupy the high as well as the low pay grades in any given rank.

What should be happening is the following:

From year to year, we have personnel who advance from pay grade to pay grade as well as retire from the job. Then we get new hires to complete the cycle. In this scenario the impact to the overall budget is a wash at best, since we have personnel occupying each step in the pay grades from bottom to top and starting at the bottom again.

What is actually happening is the following:

We are lucky at best to get a recruit class to replace these retirees in a timely fashion, which results in very substantial salary savings to the overall city budget. This practice has been going on for well over 15 years.

If we were to have a recruit class ready to hire when we have the retirements to substantiate them, at best we would have a zero impact on the overall budget. As stated earlier, this is not our practice, we let personnel retire, then city mgt. think about it for a year or so, then it takes about 6-9 months after that to get new applicants through the hiring process.

On health insurance topic, I will use your $10,000 per employee this year. Last year, it was $ 9500 per employee. We have approx. 4500 city employees x $500 increase. This equates to about $ 2.25 million in increase to health insurance.

I am finding it really hard to believe that "the so called increase in wages" is going to eat up the remaining $ 2.75 million dollars for this fiscal year. When we have a hiring freeze, many retirements upcoming in this fiscal year, and no increase in wages. Who is getting these increase in wages and compensation? Hmm, I wonder. If no raises or new hires, where does that money go. We already have a rainy fund for the city that tops 10%.

The $9500 per employee is for fire department, a few years back they negotiated with the City during contract talks and do not participate in the same insurance program as Police/AFSCME/Non-Uniformed. The average cost for Police/AFSCME/Non-Uniformed is over $10,000 per year, plus there's the retired employees (like me) that have health insurance as part or their retirement package.

The increase to this years fiscal budget (2009/2010) to cover the increased cost for wages and health insurance was over $10,000,000.00 dollars, with this type of increase, it's clear where any increased revenue is going. It was almost $5,000,000.00 just for Police and Fire. (Fire 1.4 million, Police 3.5 million)