The amazing amount of progress is not enough to stop the determined negativism of Larry OKC - the king of Debbie Downer.

Glad you didn't disappoint us. try to have a Good Day Mr. OKC Negative.
I prefer Mr. OKC Realistic, but no to worry, I am having a great day. I actually was born here, moved back in my college days and continue to live and work here.



I'm gonna guess you voted NO to all the MAPS votes?Other than my quick comment,you are %100 correct but what would OKC be w/o the MAPS taxes?My guess is that we would have NO NBA,NO improved or rebuilt schools,NO Boathouse row and just maybe no Devon tower and the P180 that goes with it,I'm just guessing!
You are correct. I voted No to every round of MAPS for various reasons.

MAPS was a mixed bag of items, some of which government should be involved with and some not. Also, the original MAPS Ballot/Ordinance was illegal due to the logrolling nature of lumping unrelated projects together in an all-or-nothing format. The City admiotted this and promised that they wouldn't do it again (then they did)

MAPS 4 Kids. The City of Oklahoma City has nothing to do with the school district and as such shouldn't have been involved. It should have been entirely up to the school district. While new buildings have been built the purpose behind those new/renovated buildings haven't materialized. A few years behind schedule (according to the Mayor) and untold multi-millions over budget.

MAPS for the NBA. Citizens paying for the place of business for a private, for profit professional sports team. no thanks. they can afford to build their own places of business and certainly don't deserve the naming rights etc to buildings they dont own.

MAPS 3. I wanted to vote for it as nearly all of the projects were ones where government should be involved. But then they went back to that nagging illegal Ballot format and I had to vote No on it.



The amazing amount of progress is not enough to stop the determined negativism of Larry OKC - the king of Debbie Downer.
Hey, I resemble that comment. LOL
If you want to dispute the historical facts, feel free.

Oh, by the way, you don't have to take my word for it...will let the Mayor's responsible for the various MAPS speak to the matter:
http://www.kansas.com/2010/06/06/1346552/how-oklahoma-city-officials-turned.html (think the link is now broken but it was an interview with the 3 mayors. Apparently someplace in Kansas was trying to do a MAPS style thing)


* The City Council must develop and maintain credibility with the public: Get quality projects done on time and on budget.

"It's vital. Just vital," Norick said. "If you don't have credibility with the public, you won't get anything done.

"As long as the city and your leadership does and says what it's going to do, the voters will keep voting for what we want to do.

"But if you trip up, you lose credibility, you lose the faith of your voters and it's over."

Any project that veers off-track, coming in late, over-budget or less than advertised, is disaster, the mayors said.

"It's a really delicate balance," Humphreys said. "You keep credibility as long as you keep performing and you keep encouraging people to invest in the right kind of things, keep investing in themselves."


How many of the original MAPS projects:
1) veered off track?
2) were behind schedule?
3) over budget?
4) less than advertised?

By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

And by the definition of any reasonable person, the MAPs projects have been an unqualified success. Luckily, most people disagree with you. Hopefully, they continue to do so so this city might continue to succeed. It's easy to critique others...

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

- Teddy Roosevelt

... By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

I don't dispute that. But, I would absolutely dispute that OKC would be better off if none of the MAPs votes had ever passed.
The bottom line, for me anyway, is that even with the problems, cost overruns, iffy political posturing, ballot formats, yada, yada, yada, yada, OKC is better off having gone with the MAPs route than its citizens and visitors would be if the various votes had gone the other way.

For you, what's important is how they got there. For me, that's the yada, yada, yada, part. I'll take the arena naming rights as an example. That's a point you don't often skip over. It's a completely meaningless point to me, irrespective of whether the naming rights annually brings the team 1 grand, 1 million, 10 million, or more. The city is better off having the exposure, and the regular influx of people dropping dimes and dollars, than they would be if there wasn't a team in place and those 40 nights were a hodge podge of lesser events.

So while I agree MAPs could be handled better, the results make it easier to overlook that it wasn't. At least for many.

Ah, so the end justifies the means...gotchya.

Overlooking it is exactly what they are expecting you to do. Congratulations. Until the voters demand otherwise, expect more of the same.

I would have whole heartedly supported MAPS 3 if they had only done what they said they were going to do before the ballot was unveiled. They didn't. Then the spinning, half-truths and in some cases out right lie machine of the campaign went into full gear. We are continuing to see the results of that and some of the most ardent supporters (even on this board) are slowly waking up to that realization (based on the posts i have been reading lately).

MAPS was a mixed bag of items, some of which government should be involved with and some not. Also, the original MAPS Ballot/Ordinance was illegal due to the logrolling nature of lumping unrelated projects together in an all-or-nothing format. The City admiotted this and promised that they wouldn't do it again (then they did)

MAPS 4 Kids. The City of Oklahoma City has nothing to do with the school district and as such shouldn't have been involved. It should have been entirely up to the school district. While new buildings have been built the purpose behind those new/renovated buildings haven't materialized. A few years behind schedule (according to the Mayor) and untold multi-millions over budget.

MAPS for the NBA. Citizens paying for the place of business for a private, for profit professional sports team. no thanks. they can afford to build their own places of business and certainly don't deserve the naming rights etc to buildings they dont own.

MAPS 3. I wanted to vote for it as nearly all of the projects were ones where government should be involved. But then they went back to that nagging illegal Ballot format and I had to vote No on it.


By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

MAPS wrapped up with every single project addressed. You are correct in that some of the projects were scaled back, however, all of the projects materialized. We all tend to forget the Civic Center Music Hall, built as planned. Same goes with the library and the fairgrounds. However, do you REALLY think any public project in ANY city is built as planned. Every project faces a revised budget. We forget that the solution most other cities seek is to bond out the funding gaps, not to mention the entire project itself is bonded, which leaves cities with years of debt to pay off. Oklahoma City never had to pay a penny of interest in the original MAPS. Why would you think the government shouldn't have been involved with some of the projects? These are all public facilities.

MAPS for Kids The City of Oklahoma City has everything to do with the school district. OKCPS is a public entity. Every single city in Oklahoma holds bond elections for public school projects. Not sure why MAPS for Kids comes as a surprise.

MAPS for the NBA. Honestly, Larry. The arena was scaled back the first go-round. NBA or no NBA, the arena needed the improvements. Let's quit using the NBA as a pawn over why the improvements shouldn't have happened. Have you been there lately? Wouldn't you agree that the improvements puts our facility up to par with others across the nation?

MAPS 3. So now that they've taken care of the log-rolling issue to no one's satisfaction, people can now use the 'vague' wording as an excuse to claim not all of the projects will get built. In reality, if the City of OKC did that, it would be a death knell for the entire MAPS series. Then we're back to square one with voter's disdain, and the next CIP package would fail at the polls. We can all agree to disagree over the various blemishes with the MAPS series, but I don't subscribe to nit-picking. While I agree the city needs to improve on project estimates on a pay-as-you-go program, to say that any part of MAPS was a failure is nothing more than a grudge-filled approach.

MAPS wrapped up with every single project addressed. You are correct in that some of the projects were scaled back, however, all of the projects materialized. We all tend to forget the Civic Center Music Hall, built as planned. Same goes with the library and the fairgrounds. However, do you REALLY think any public project in ANY city is built as planned. Every project faces a revised budget. We forget that the solution most other cities seek is to bond out the funding gaps, not to mention the entire project itself is bonded, which leaves cities with years of debt to pay off. Oklahoma City never had to pay a penny of interest in the original MAPS. Why would you think the government shouldn't have been involved with some of the projects? These are all public facilities.

MAPS for Kids The City of Oklahoma City has everything to do with the school district. OKCPS is a public entity. Every single city in Oklahoma holds bond elections for public school projects. Not sure why MAPS for Kids comes as a surprise.

MAPS for the NBA. Honestly, Larry. The arena was scaled back the first go-round. NBA or no NBA, the arena needed the improvements. Let's quit using the NBA as a pawn over why the improvements shouldn't have happened. Have you been there lately? Wouldn't you agree that the improvements puts our facility up to par with others across the nation?

MAPS 3. So now that they've taken care of the log-rolling issue to no one's satisfaction, people can now use the 'vague' wording as an excuse to claim not all of the projects will get built. In reality, if the City of OKC did that, it would be a death knell for the entire MAPS series. Then we're back to square one with voter's disdain, and the next CIP package would fail at the polls. We can all agree to disagree over the various blemishes with the MAPS series, but I don't subscribe to nit-picking. While I agree the city needs to improve on project estimates on a pay-as-you-go program, to say that any part of MAPS was a failure is nothing more than a grudge-filled approach.

Save your breath, all MAPS projects could have been built exactly as planned, on or under budget, and he still would complain. Some are never happy and bitch because they can!!

No comment, this is been re-hashed umpteen times.........

A few folks out there in the world just don't get it, and for that matter, never will get it.

Bellaboo: how true, how true.

http://newsok.com/article/3634521

Was this position aggressively recruited to? Given the controversy expressed here on project mismanagement and cost overruns, was this the best hire? Now that Wenger is out what will his legacy be regards Maps? What will change with this hire?

Given the amount of money being spent, this is an important hire.

I don't believe that Eric Wenger was popular with many. Any time you have somebody who clings to their job by appeasing only their bosses, you have an awkward situation, and it doesn't take much for them to lose favor with the only people who were keeping them around. I don't know 100% of the details surrounding Wenger's departure, but I can also say that I question anyone who really thinks the Project Manager carries that much weight to begin with.

How do we know that Wenger is the one who wanted MAPS3 to be bastardized? All we do know is that Wenger's fiscal figures were consistently off. And while that's not helpful, it isn't going to give one project an explicit advantage over another. I just don't see the change-up as that big of a deal.

By the way Rover, sorry if my last response to you (about "conspiracies") was rather terse. I don't think I was in a bad mood or anything, but it was a rash knee-jerk on second thought. I am very curious about your thoughts on Wenger. That said, I am shocked that they haven't decided to fold project management under the duties of the Alliance. That's pretty much why the Alliance was created, and we know that they will take the lead on many aspects of MAPS.

Wenger isn't out, he's been promoted and will still be heavily involved in all these civic projects.

Wenger isn't out, he's been promoted and will still be heavily involved in all these civic projects.

With his promotion to Department head of the Public Works Division, he'll be more directly involved then he was in his previous position.

So, with all the cost overruns, bad communications, etc. on P180, the Conference Center, Central Park, etc., why is this appointment so low key and no one seems to care who it is or that the same people will continue to manage the projects? We all talk about wanting to improve bad processes and decisions, but who is hired is pretty key to getting things done right.

Answer: almost certainly good.
Some, but not all, of the problems witnessed are, in my observation, due to a city staff that is stretched farthest that I've seen since the mid-90s when city staff, again shrunk by cuts, etc, were hit with adding bombing recovery efforts to an already full plate. The bench needs to be replenished with good, qualified people. Todd enjoys a good reputation and I've never heard a critical comment about him either during his prior years at City Hall or out in private practice.

Thanks for the insight Steve.

Accepting your premise (or observation), that problems are due to cutbacks and overworked staff, why haven't we heard more council persons go to bat for right-sizing (up) the staff? If we are going 10s of millions of dollars over budget, and priorities aren't getting accomplished, it would be a very wise position to increase staff. You can pay for a lot of staff (and good ones) for the kinds of overruns that we are seeing and are projected. This should be done now to save money overall. Just makes sense, even though adding staff won't go over well politically. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing though.

With his promotion to Department head of the Public Works Division, he'll be more directly involved then he was in his previous position.

Well there ya go. A story in itself.

Thanks for the insight Steve.

Accepting your premise (or observation), that problems are due to cutbacks and overworked staff, why haven't we heard more council persons go to bat for right-sizing (up) the staff? If we are going 10s of millions of dollars over budget, and priorities aren't getting accomplished, it would be a very wise position to increase staff. You can pay for a lot of staff (and good ones) for the kinds of overruns that we are seeing and are projected. This should be done now to save money overall. Just makes sense, even though adding staff won't go over well politically. Sometimes you just have to do the right thing though.

It's always easier for a politician to tell voters they're cutting spending than to admit they need to spend more on administrative costs to have better outcomes in govt. services, performance. At the same time, is there waste in govt. at large? You bet... so it's a conundrum, isn't it?

It is. It is very fashionable these days to think that the only appropriate route to efficiency is to cut. Sometimes there is inefficiency created by not having the assets in place to do the job properly. There is a saying in manufacturing, "if you need a piece of equipment and you don't by it, you pay for it anyway." we can save pennies by understaffing the city and cost ourselves dollars. Very shortsighted.

Steve, correct me on this but haven't the previous "cuts" in City Staff been restored? While some have left the City, they were replaced and in some cases they are now contracted employees with the City (i.e., the Alliance). Was pretty sure that it came up that staffing for managing MAPS 3 was directly funded from MAPS 3 itself?

I agree that city staff limitations are definitely part of the equation, but let's not ignore that a lot of the shortcomings we've seen (and a lot of the bastardization of MAPS3) has been the direct will of those calling the shots.

The staff recommendations can keep coming in, they can keep getting longer and more comprehensive, but it doesn't mean a damn thing when a slough of committees take the opposite action.

Spartan, there are those who would say you can't bastardize what is already a bastard.....

I have an acute knowlege of MAPS 3. can someone tell me when will they start creating the park, building the convention center, etc. How long will they be collecteing the 1 cent sales takes from Oklahoma City residents?

Also, when will they start with the core to shore thing?

if it's so acute what are you asking us for?

if it's so acute what are you asking us for?

Because i know LITTLE about it.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/acute

a·cute:sharp or penetrating in intellect, insight, or perception: an acute observer.

a·cute:sharp or penetrating in intellect, insight, or perception: an acute observer.

All this time I thought it meant something small. My bad

don't be a fool. son, you got to stay in school! lol

if it's so acute what are you asking us for?

lol, i was thinking the exact same thing as i was reading his questions.

i think he was assuming acute meant small b/c of how we learned about triangles growing up. acute versus obtuse, acute angles are small and obtuse are large. however, acute angles are also very sharp, but i can see how one can get it mixed up. at least that's what i'm assuming was the confusion.

lol, i was thinking the exact same thing as i was reading his questions.

i think he was assuming acute meant small b/c of how we learned about triangles growing up. acute versus obtuse, acute angles are small and obtuse are large. however, acute angles are also very sharp, but i can see how one can get it mixed up. at least that's what i'm assuming was the confusion.

You are absolutly correct. Just forget that I said it

...can someone tell me when will they start creating the park, building the convention center, etc. How long will they be collecteing the 1 cent sales takes from Oklahoma City residents?

And no one bothered to answer the man's questions? Hope this helps...

Park
This gets convoluted because it was the plan to have the Park/Boulevard completely done sometime in 2014. Timelines changed and the Park is being done in multiple phases. The earliest phase is most likely to be minimal landscaping along the Boulevard (northern edge of the Park) and along the Harvey Spine that connects to the Skydance pedestrian bridge that spans the new I-40 (so it isn't a bridge to nowhere...LOL)

MAPS 3 Project dates

http://www.okc.gov/maps3/graphics/timeline.jpg



MAPS 3 Tax duration
It is being collected over a 7.75 year span. Beginning on April 1, 2010 and ending at midnight, December 31, 2017


Also, when will they start with the core to shore thing?
Some of the MAPS 3 projects are tied into the Core to Shore (i.e., the Park). The Boulevard is another component (non-MAPS). Core to Shore has been described as a 30 to 50 year plan.

lol, i was thinking the exact same thing as i was reading his questions.

i think he was assuming acute meant small b/c of how we learned about triangles growing up. acute versus obtuse, acute angles are small and obtuse are large. however, acute angles are also very sharp, but i can see how one can get it mixed up. at least that's what i'm assuming was the confusion.

Unfortunately even though the adults should have recognized the context of his question, they chose to be obtuse in their responses! :-D

Unfortunately even though the adults should have recognized the context of his question, they chose to be obtuse in their responses! :-D

Nicely put ;-)

Thanks for answering my questions, glad to know there are less sarcastic people on this site

Thanks for answering my questions, glad to know there are less sarcastic people on this site

You should venture over to the Landthieves OU Sooners forum....You will be begging for people to be more like OKCTalkers ;)

I've seen on the greaterokc.tv website that core to shore is going to completely change the face of the downtown area between the Oklahoma river and the boulevard, I really cant wait until that happends. Are they collecting money from the Maps projects or are they getting their money from a different source?

You should venture over to the Landthieves OU Sooners forum....You will be begging for people to be more like OKCTalkers ;)

Lol I have vsiited that site a couple times, nothing like OKCTalk members

I've seen on the greaterokc.tv website that core to shore is going to completely change the face of the downtown area between the Oklahoma river and the boulevard, I really cant wait until that happends. Are they collecting money from the Maps projects or are they getting their money from a different source?

I'm probably not the best to answer this but, here it goes anyway:

The Core to Shore (C2S) is anticipated to take anywhere from 30 to 50 years to be "completed". From Reno (which border Myriad Botanical Gardens to the South) there are about 15 blocks between the Central Business District (CBD...which is the Core part of C2S) down to the Oklahoma River. That is a LOT that needs to be developed. A decent portion of that is going to be the Maps 3 Park (http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=24502&p=502574#post502574). But there is still a LOT of development that would need to occur.

The funding will come from all sorts of sources. The only MAPS 3 money that will go toward C2S is the Central Park. There may be future MAPS that distribute more money toward the central park, but we're at least 4 years away from voting for another MAPS.

In the mean time, one would hope that many private investments are made into the area. It does seem as though the river is moving forward relatively well...Boat houses, Youth Pavillion, a couple projects that are currently being speculated on could come to fruition. I personally think that the River area is going to have to "blow up" with development in order for C2S to become a reality. What is going to need to happen is that the CBD and the River area are going to have to slowly envelop central park with development.

Unfortunately even though the adults should have recognized the context of his question, they chose to be obtuse in their responses! :-D

Sorry, but not quite sure what you mean by me being "obtuse" in my response. I guess I could have given a more "acute" answer if I was actually able to answer the question. Unfortunately, I don't live in OKC any more and didn't have the answers to his questions. I am pretty new to this site myself.

SoonerBoy18: To add to what Teo9969 said, early on the Mayor stated that Core to Shore was (IIRC) a 3 billion dollar plan and would be a mixture of public & private investments/development. The precise ratio not defined. Core to Shore elements like the Park and other public infrastructure improvements can come from various sources, either more MAPS or General Obligation bond issues, TIF districts (like the Devon TIF that is behind Project 180). The hope is that the public investment projects will spur the private development and "keep the momentum going" from previous rounds.

More than anything, Core to Shore provided a vision to inspire others to make it a reality. Core to shore is not a ready-to-go plan aside from the park.

Sorry, but not quite sure what you mean by me being "obtuse" in my response. I guess I could have given a more "acute" answer if I was actually able to answer the question. Unfortunately, I don't live in OKC any more and didn't have the answers to his questions. I am pretty new to this site myself.

Just making a play on words - no ill will intended.

The MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board meeting will be held on Thursday, March 22, 2012 @ 10:00 AM

The Oklahoma State Fairgrounds Subcommittee will not meet this month.

The following subcommittees will meet in March:

Convention Center Subcommittee – Tuesday, March 20 @ 10:30 AM – 10th Floor Conference Room, 420 W Main
Oklahoma River Subcommittee – Tuesday, March 20 @ 2:30 PM – 10th Floor Conference Room, 420 W Main
Trails/Sidewalks Subcommittee – Wednesday, March 21 @ 8:30 AM – Basement Conference Room, 420 W Main
Senior Health and Wellness Centers Subcommittee – Wednesday, March 21 @ 10:30 AM – Basement Conference Room, 420 W Main
Parks Subcommittee – Wednesday, March 21 @ 1:30 PM – 10th Floor Conference Room, 420 W Main
Transit/Modern Streetcar Subcommittee – Wednesday, March 21 @ 3:30 PM – 10th Floor Conference Room, 420 W Main

UP - just to be sure, the public is invited to these meetings? For once I think I can go - thank goodness. I have wanted to attend for quite some time.

UP - just to be sure, the public is invited to these meetings? For once I think I can go - thank goodness. I have wanted to attend for quite some time.

yes these are 100% public meetings

UP - just to be sure, the public is invited to these meetings? For once I think I can go - thank goodness. I have wanted to attend for quite some time.

Yes. They are all public meetings. Usually guests sit in chairs along the perimeter of the room with the committees/city staff seated at the conference table. Of course, the Oversight Board meetings are held in the Council Chambers with the public sitting in the benches and the board around the horseshoe.

Hope that helps. Usually the city garage on Main is where to park. You night plan on at least 10 minutes to deal with getting to/from the parking garage.

Usually the city garage on Main is where to park. You night plan on at least 10 minutes to deal with getting to/from the parking garage.

LOL - maybe someday OKC will be a city where the inclusion of parking instructions are not assumed.

Funny again JTF - you are on a roll lately! Thanks for the info Boulder, UP, and JTF. Definitely want to attend.

In the City Council meeting today, a sales tax report was presented that showed year-to-date sales tax collection for MAPS was 6% over the target thus far.

Overall, sales tax collection is up 9% for the year over the same period 2011.

Did you just watch it? That was quite a council meeting discussion about MAPS overall and the sidewalk situation. The CC discussion is also interesting.

Didn't watch but was following the tweets.

Can't believe the council didn't slam the people involved with missing the sidewalk estimate by 66%.

Kinda "did". Missing the target goes back to speculation forming the original docket.

Ed reinterated the point myself and others have made regarding the absolute firestorm that WILL happen WHEN the convention center comes in way over budget.

CuatrodeMayo: maybe, maybe not. The spin put on it will be something along these lines..."we always said this was just Phase 1, we just need to approve the funds for Phase 2." Don't pay any attention to the pre-vote information...all of the pesky details about size, functionality, hotel etc...LOL

CuatrodeMayo: maybe, maybe not. The spin put on it will be something along these lines..."we always said this was just Phase 1, we just need to approve the funds for Phase 2." Never mind this was mentioned in a short Q&A with the Mayor in the Oklahoman about the cost of a new Convention Center...pretty much ignored during the campaign as not being a complete, fully functioning one that will meet current needs, much less what the needs are by the time it gets built. "Don't pay any attention to the pre-vote information...all of the pesky details about size, functionality, hotel etc"...LOL

With Project 180 being half done, the MAPS3 Sidewalks/Trails coming in over budget, and the debacle with the new CC, I have a feeling this will be the last MAPS package that the city will be able to pass. The way MAPS3 is currently being managed will deter OKC citizens to support future MAPS programs.

I'm actually optimistic about the next MAPS. There is very little left IMHO that the city fathers could ask for. I think the next one is all about sidewalks, transit, more trails, and western river improvements. I don't see it stopping as projects start to come online with grandeur generating excitement for people.

That doesn't mean that I think these concerns are overrated, but we're getting very close to focussing our energy/money on what the majority of people want.

It could spiral out of control if they don't watch it though. I mean politically. The sidewalk issue should be resolved in a way that is politically salient as soon as possible. The same for transit should the budget be short.

With Project 180 being half done, the MAPS3 Sidewalks/Trails coming in over budget, and the debacle with the new CC, I have a feeling this will be the last MAPS package that the city will be able to pass. The way MAPS3 is currently being managed will deter OKC citizens to support future MAPS programs.

I'm with you on that... If I remember correctly, this MAPS only passed 52 to 48 percent. It's not like it was a large margin of victory. I'll be going to the no side next time...


I'm actually optimistic about the next MAPS. There is very little left IMHO that the city fathers could ask for. I think the next one is all about sidewalks, transit, more trails, and western river improvements. I don't see it stopping as projects start to come online with grandeur generating excitement for people.

That doesn't mean that I think these concerns are overrated, but we're getting very close to focussing our energy/money on what the majority of people want.

It could spiral out of control if they don't watch it though. I mean politically. The sidewalk issue should be resolved in a way that is politically salient as soon as possible. The same for transit should the budget be short.

Sidewalks and trails - isn't that what General Obligation Bonds are for? Public Transit - unless it is to extend the streetcar system years from now, wouldn't that be an RTA thing?