Merchants worry less about streetcar wire
By: Brian Brus The Journal Record April 28, 20150

http://journalrecord.com/files/2015/04/bb-trolly-lines-bbf-2-4-29-15.jpg
Jeff Bezdek is a member of the Citizens Advisory Board Modern Streetcar Subcommittee in Oklahoma City. (Photo by Brent Fuchs)

OKLAHOMA CITY – Business operators along the proposed route of a downtown streetcar said they’re coming around to see that the potential positive factors of a wired system outweigh the negative.

The improvement of vehicle battery technology has introduced a little tension in the development process, said Jeff Bezdek, a member of the Citizens Advisory Board Modern Streetcar Subcommittee, but those conflicts will likely be resolved according to practical engineering needs and not stakeholder fears or personalities.

“The challenge is that Oklahoma City hasn’t had any real rail transit system since 1947,” Bezdek said. “Because we’re starting with something brand new, people are having to use their imaginations to envision what a streetcar will look like. There are a number of folks who are overly concerned about this issue, when the aesthetic challenge that it presents may not be as dramatic as they imagine.”

About two years ago, the committee concluded that a $128.8 million streetcar system approved by voters as part of the MAPS 3 sales tax issue would best serve the city by running in a loop along NW 11th Street, N. Broadway Avenue, Sheridan Avenue to Joe Carter Drive, Reno Avenue and N. Hudson Avenue. The design allows for several expansion options and is expected to serve as a transition between corridors that spread across central Oklahoma City.

Bezdek is quick to remind people that the original multimodal concept voters supported leaned heavily toward vehicles that would need to tap into power lines installed overhead or in the street.

Lately, improvements in battery storage are allowing the committee to consider wireless options within the budget. Batteries are strong enough to propel streetcars along certain corridors, but MAPS 3 funding still only allows for about one-third of the 4.5-mile route to be installed without catenary lines. Bezdek said a few business operators in Automobile Alley and Bricktown said they are wondering who is best positioned to benefit from those upgrades, which would be less of a change to the districts’ historic profile.

David Todd, the city’s MAPS project manager, agreed with Bezdek that many choices will be dictated by practicality. The streetcar must run wirelessly under the railroad track bordering Bricktown, for example, and uphill travel requires more energy than a battery alone can provide. The additional power needed for an air-conditioning system during summer also lowers the effective budget cap.

Subcommittee member Jane Jenkins said the group is trying to mitigate stakeholder concerns as much as possible. She said they expect that technology will continue to improve as the streetcar infrastructure ages and needs repairs, providing opportunities to get rid of more obvious wiring over time.

Subcommittee Chairman Nathaniel Harding said the streetcar program is still under budget, and bids have been sought from track manufacturers. The streetcar is expected to begin running in 2017.

Harding said he thinks that ultimately businesspeople in the area will understand that some wiring is necessary and appearances won’t be disturbed as much as they fear. The conflict will resolve itself soon enough, he said.

“Our business community has a good track record of coming to a good decision once they explore the options and trade-offs,” he said.

That’s been the case with Brittney Matlock, co-founder of Plenty Mercantile on Broadway.

“I don’t have any particular concerns,” she said. “Anything wireless would be ideal, but if we have to work with wires I still think we would greatly benefit from it. We just want a streetcar. Before we signed a lease on this space, we didn’t have that many neighbors and the Devon tower wasn’t even done yet. This area is really developing, and I think a streetcar would be an awesome addition.”

And Adam Rott, manager at Broadway Wine, said adjusting to streetcar culture will be less of a problem than what people expect.

“I expect it will alleviate some of the automobile congestion and drive more foot traffic,” he said. “It’s a really good thing. I’ve lived overseas with lines overhead for streetcars, and it’s really not that big of a deal.”

Off-wire battery operation is causing hiccups here in Seattle: Where's the First Hill streetcar? Timeline uncertain (http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/04/28/wheres-the-first-hill-street-car-timeline-uncertain/26548419/)

I am really glad that Seattle is the "guinea pig" for this. The company is on the hook to make this work and we will probably benefit from it.

Yep, OKC loves Seattle :)

Yep, OKC loves Seattle :)

Where ARE those elephants though?

They're supposed to be coming still. :)

You'll have to figure out what else you'd all like - too late on the Seahawks though. hehe

They're supposed to be coming still. :)

You'll have to figure out what else you'd all like - too late on the Seahawks though. hehe


Apparently a vote was held, and rain was the top vote getter

Where ARE those elephants though?

Due to inclement weather in the West, they've been diverted to San Diego. They should be on their way to OKC in a few weeks.

So let me get this straight...

So far the project is well within budget so we can afford to spend more on perks like the hybrid battery operated streetcars that can run wireless. Could we perhaps just do more track instead and stick to proven technology that isn't causing issues in Seattle? It doesn't take a whole lot extra to reach Capitol Hill, if you just keep going down Robinson past I-40 and the river. If you can truly get people from north to south, you've got a viable system that responds to the usual flow of traffic in OKC (north to south).

My understanding is that the batteries are required so the cars can disconnect from the catenary and be self powered to pass beneath low clearance underpasses. A requirement for our route, not a perk.

Can some one explain why the wire can't go under the overpass. I have seen lots systems out there with very little clearance.

My understanding is that the batteries are required so the cars can disconnect from the catenary and be self powered to pass beneath low clearance underpasses. A requirement for our route, not a perk.

Oh right, I forgot about those underpasses. Thanks for the clarification/reminder. :)

Let's clarify a few things-

1. Semi-wireless is a requirement for the bridge underpasses.
2. Hybrid streetcar savings can be/could be somewhat cost neutral as a premiums is paid on each vehicle versus the removal of wire infrastructure.
3. The BNSF underpass would require reconstruction to lower the road grade to allow both cars and streets beneath it. That would have been cost prohibitive and required BNSF's approval potentially adding months or years to the project.
4. Yes, streetcar can accommodate "low" clearances but presents major liability if the bridge is of "shared use". Imagine box truck or semi getting wedged under the bridge in contact with the wire.
5. The reason the bridge would require reconstruction is due to where the footings are in relationship to the street grade.
6. The project is currently projected to be within budget. Only actual bidding will determine if we are indeed within budget.

From today's advisory committee meeting as per Bill Crum.

First MAPS 3 senior center reaches milestone | Oklahoman.com (http://www.oklahoman.com/article/5423025&headline=First%20MAPS%203%20senior%20center%20reac hes%20milestone)


An advisory committee on Wednesday endorsed consultants’ preliminary plans for the 4.6-mile MAPS 3 streetcar route. The tracks will run through the central business district in a loop connecting Midtown and Bricktown.

Next steps include confirming the capabilities of the preferred streetcars to run sufficient distances without overhead wires, getting ready to order the steel rails that will be laid in downtown streets, and coordinating construction plans with utilities and the city.

Consultants say current cost estimates have the streetcar within the $128.8 million budget. Plans are for the first phase including the 4.6-mile “mainline” and a maintenance barn to begin operations with five streetcars by mid-2018.

I wonder what that means for when construction might start if they're planning on having an operating system in three years.

Construction will start spring to mid of next year as the general contractor is selected. Completion is estimated for mid 2018. We are negotiating with INEKON right now to purchase 5 streetcars. The rail should be ordered very shortly as it is a long lead item. Pre-bid meetings should be occurring this year to pre-qualify contractors.

Keep in mind that Santa Fe Station and the rail sections related to it on EK Gaylord will be completed very, very quickly. The construction scope once these projects start will be significant.

What happened to the 2017 timeline?

Wired versus wireless hell happened and many other things best discussed over strong drinks.

I would rather leave the past in the past and simply move forward. And not only with streetcar, but a comprehensive regional Bus and Rail system.

Wired versus wireless hell happened and many other things best discussed over strong drinks.

I would rather leave the past in the past and simply move forward. And not only with streetcar, but a comprehensive regional Bus and Rail system.

If this were a Facebook post it would be "vaguebooking"…it's a little bit disconcerting :-/ . . . is the movement/push for regional bus and Rail system hitting a major impasse?

No. Actually not at all. It's just if I line itemed all the people who have unnecessarily delayed this project and their related motivations for doing so, that really wouldn't help us move forward with these bigger endeavors. Best to move on in good spirits.

An update on this is being presented right now to the city council meeting, it just started.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhMCDP-26EQ

Oklahoma City MAPS 3 streetcar, senior center advance | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps-3-streetcar-senior-center-advance/article/5424715)

How bad are we going to be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-us-metro-rail-systems-that-lose-the-most-money-per-passenger-2015-6?utm_content=buffer567f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

How bad are going the be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-us-metro-rail-systems-that-lose-the-most-money-per-passenger-2015-6?utm_content=buffer567f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

And, buried at the end, is this (emphasis added):

"Like roads, mass transit is not self-sustaining: It requires a combination of user fees and other government funding to pay for operations, maintenance, and expansion.

But according to THP’s Melissa S. Kearney, Brad Hershbein, and Greg Nantz, there is plenty of evidence that suggests government subsidies for transit might be justified: Development of transit stations has been linked to higher land values, higher office rents, and lower office vacancy rates. Mass transit also alleviates congestion for drivers. For example, a strike by Los Angeles transit workers that temporarily shut down service in 2003 resulted in a 47% increase in highway delays.

Read more: http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brookings-now/posts/2015/06/ten-us-metro-rail-systems-that-lose-the-most-money-per-passenger#ixzz3cC6Zevrl"

How bad are we going to be railed by the running costs of this rail?

The 10 US metro rail systems that lose the most money per passenger - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-10-us-metro-rail-systems-that-lose-the-most-money-per-passenger-2015-6?utm_content=buffer567f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer)

We can always stop government subsidies for roads to save money. We make zero money for their use, unless you count toll ways. The cars on them pollute far more than mass transit, which costs us in healthcare dollars. Trains are also more energy efficient for long-hauling of goods. Lots of reasons we need to spend money on rail instead of roads.

Unless you don't believe in mass transit at all, which you may well not, another plus is that streetcars cost far less to operate than buses.

Just saw an interesting tweet (https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar/status/608642419169476608) from the OKC Streetcar account:


Last night, Norman joined Edmond in agreeing to fund the RTA task force. We are on our way to comp bus & rail friends

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHJVDcdUgAAHmtJ.png:large

Park and ride lots are counter-productive. I hope the powers that be realize this.

Park and ride lots are counter-productive. I hope the powers that be realize this.

They're not counter-productive, they're just not a great use of resources. It ends up being a great deal for downtown, but ends up hurting the suburbs. Obviously if they establish urban centers at each stop, they stand to gain from traffic from OKC, but some suburbs will undoubtedly see it as a nice amenity for their citizens to use to get to work.

A stop at Moore Central Park would be excellent as I could easily ride my bike there and catch rail up to downtown. Let's make this happen.

They're not counter-productive, they're just not a great use of resources. It ends up being a great deal for downtown, but ends up hurting the suburbs. Obviously if they establish urban centers at each stop, they stand to gain from traffic from OKC, but some suburbs will undoubtedly see it as a nice amenity for their citizens to use to get to work.

If they establish an urban center, like I suggested for Choctaw Town Center, then they wouldn't be park and ride lots. I am sure what they have in mind though is passenger platform in the middle of 20 acres of parking surrounded by a chain-link fence, with 20 evenly spaced blue glowing emergency call boxes.

there isn't a blanket application that works for everyone. Some suburbs are more rural and need a park-n-ride type setup while others are more urbanized and would have a town center or transit center without much parking. I can even see some suburbs with BOTH a town center and park n ride (like Edmond which would have a transit center in its downtown but park n ride in N Edmond and Edmond/N OKC.

I think this is totally fine and a great use of resources; OKC metro has the land we just need to better connect the people. I think it is unrealistic to have local bus serving EVERYwhere in a cost efficient manner, so the cost of living in the suburbs or rural is that you have to drive to the park n ride if you're not on a suburb local bus route feeding the PnR or Transit Center. That's better than having to drive to downtown!!

Whenever possible, stops should be either through dense, walkable areas or in areas with the potential to become that. Park-and-rides really are pretty counterproductive. The A-Train/DART from Denton to Dallas is the example of how not to do transit. It's so depressing to realize how much money was wasted and now it's losing money and failing. I constantly want to take the A-Train, but it can never gain enough ridership to run on a frequent enough schedule to be successful.

Thinking more about connecting Tinker...

Why is it being connected through the Canadian River Million Year Flood Plain (and and a dozen superfund sites)? That's absurd. It's also interesting from the vantage point of State Capital (more jobs than we realize, more accessible, and much closer) vs Tinker (distant, full of security or last mile issues).

Why arent there just SW/SE 29th and NW/NE 23rd laterals that bookend the system? It accomplishes both and picks up thousands more daily riders.

Whenever possible, stops should be either through dense, walkable areas or in areas with the potential to become that. Park-and-rides really are pretty counterproductive. The A-Train/DART from Denton to Dallas is the example of how not to do transit. It's so depressing to realize how much money was wasted and now it's losing money and failing. I constantly want to take the A-Train, but it can never gain enough ridership to run on a frequent enough schedule to be successful.

It doesn't even go to downtown Dallas. The A Train is the first train in America to not do that.

Transit mode split is all about the last mile. If you have pleasant, walkable streets - people totally want to get rid of the car. Done and done. If your streets are inhospitable, that's going to depress transit ridership no matter what. Rail can overcome that but it HAS to be designed to attract development if suitable development doesn't yet exist.

Spartan, just my guess - likely cost. But those greenfields are also likely easier to redevelop into dense development rather than relying on the existing rather suburban tracts nearby that likely are NOT going to change.

Thinking more about connecting Tinker...

Why is it being connected through the Canadian River Million Year Flood Plain (and and a dozen superfund sites)? That's absurd. It's also interesting from the vantage point of State Capital (more jobs than we realize, more accessible, and much closer) vs Tinker (distant, full of security or last mile issues).

Why arent there just SW/SE 29th and NW/NE 23rd laterals that bookend the system? It accomplishes both and picks up thousands more daily riders.

As soon as we get the street car running to Capitol Hill and 23rd/Classen, the bus lines should stop going downtown and simply provide transfer service. You could at that point probably increase bus service on those routes to no more than 20 minutes (and more likely 15). In fact, any bus-service to the NW (005, 007, 008, 010) or to the SW (011, 012, 013, 016, 040) would be obliged to transfer to the street car so as to increase route efficiency. Your frequency on the street car to those locales ought to be every 10/15 minutes.

I agree that would work very well. I think Tinker might be better served by an express bus or something like that. It could also have a stop that is highly integrated into the MWC Town Center and somewhere in "downtown MWC" and then a straight shot to downtown.

Hot Rod - I think there are too many superfund sites in that flood plain to remediate before any development could happen. Plus the county landfill, a significant oil field, some industry, and several railroads. Realistically that area of town is inhabitable.

In a low-density city like OKC, park and ride is pretty much the only way light rail is going to happen, at least starting out. I myself would be ecstatic if the commuter rail lines shown above were actually built.

OKC is weird density-wise... It's kind of a sparsely populated core surrounded by corridors of dense sprawl.

If the commuter rail lines are indeed put together, I intend to use them for my work commute into downtown - even though I'm only down at I-240. Our traffic isn't bad compared to most other major cities, but it's still something I don't like dealing with... And it doesn't help that I really like trains, too, haha.

Hopefully by that point, I could ride the train into Santa Fe Station, then connect with the streetcar to get over to OUHSC. Here's hoping!

In a low-density city like OKC, park and ride is pretty much the only way light rail is going to happen, at least starting out. I myself would be ecstatic if the commuter rail lines shown above were actually built.

Park and ride is very commen all over England. And a big part of the Denver metro system

Park and ride is very commen all over England. And a big part of the Denver metro system

A station with a parking lot is not a 'park and ride'. You would be hard pressed to find a train station in England that didn't have urban density adjacent to it. Where is the urban density on Tecumseh Road?

Kerry - go check it out. There Hillsdale Bible College, Hey Day's, a Life Church thing, Andy Alligator's, a car dealership, Moore Norman Regl Hospital, the Natl Guard armory, and a lot of jobs (York Intl/Johnson Controls, others) and neighborhoods.

Tecumseh Road is as good as any other sprawl. It succeeds on having all the elements and none of the place. :)

If they put a park-n-ride at Tecumsah, that would be close enough to me that I would probably experiment with biking over and riding the commuter rail up into the city. Well, assuming that a bike is something I could bring onto the train, that seems like an important detail.

Cool old renderings of what a station could look like:

http://imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/specketer_metro_01.jpg
http://imaginativeamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/specketer_metro_02.jpg

No Fairgates?

I lean toward thinking those are draconian... ironic because that certainly describes that old rendering lol.

IT.... IS...... HAPPENING........

OKC metro forms regional transit authority | Oklahoma Gazette (http://okgazette.com/2015/06/26/okc-metro-forms-regional-transit-authority/)

Now we just have to wait 10 years to see anything materialize.

It won't take 10 years to quadruple bus service, expand operating hours, and build shelters. Commuter Rail, yes. Streetcar... 6 years.

The MAPS3 streetcar had better be operational a lot sooner than 6 years, so I hope you're referring to extensions like Classen or Capitol Hill!

The bus system needs to take advantage of OKC's uniquely in-tact township grid. Working with geography is the best way to realize efficiencies in transit. A lot of the city even has major half-mile section roads (Walker, NW16th, NW30th, SW25th, Grand Blvd, Agnew, Villa, Blackwelder, Ann Arbor, and so on. There's an easier way to provide attractive high-frequency bus service within walkable distance.

I was referring to when there is an RTA funding vote. Santa Fe Station will be completed by 2017 and streetcar during 2018. Bus improvements phased in throughout.

My generalization refers to the billion dollar program beyond these current programs.

Could we start building infrastructure with bonds, TIF, grants, ODOT funding... before the RTA tax actually commences?

Yes. We could. The next GO Bond election is potentially slated for 2016. TIF I think is tough unless the developer comes to the table asking that monies be spent on transit infrastructure. I kinda kick myself for not knowing about the new apartments at Shartel and 10th ahead of time. That would have been a great opportunity to leverage that development to expand streetcar past Dewey and to Classen instead.

I also suspect that The Alliance is not putting these ideas forward. They seem to be obsessed with financing parking garages.

The next GO bond is 2017.

Edit: I think the election might indeed be 2016, probably December.

That's right. Estimates from several advisors are Dec 2016.

UP (or anyone else who may have the answer):

I've been taking the Portland MAX more and more, and with the heatwave we have had, trains are delayed due to heat and having to run slower.

Apparently the heat (specifically over 90F) causes the tracks to kink and buckle as they expand with the rise in temperature.

With as many 90+F days as Oklahoma generally sees, how will this affect the Streetcar in OKC? Use of a stronger rail?

How does Phoenix handle it?

Phoenix has light rail. Tucson (just as hot) has streetcar. I've only ridden either one in the November to January time frame though, not in the peak of summer.

Phoenix has light rail. Tucson (just as hot) has streetcar. I've only ridden either one in the November to January time frame though, not in the peak of summer.

I got them confused.

It depends on whether the trains are suspended on rails that are on ballasts or are immersed in concrete. The streetcar tracks are imbedded and immersed in a concrete slab. There really isn't a whole lot of opportunity for expansion or contraction with our streetcar system.

The MAX in Portland is probably just designed for parameters that are different.